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Navy Injustice

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JMD

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Oct 2, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/2/96
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A major injustice is about to be done to a serving officer of the
Canadian Navy. Right now the fate of LCdr Dean Marsaw, former
skipper of the submarine Ojibway, is in the hands of Defence Minister
Collenette, the Col. Klink of Canadian public life.

On Oct. 1, CBC's Fifth Estate detailed Marsaw's case. It resulted in his
court martial conviction, including a recommendation he be kicked out of
the navy. The program described a case built on shaky and contradictory
evidence. Marsaw was accused of abusing members of the sub's crew on
several occasions and in a vareity of ways. The investigation and
subsequent court martial produced a parade of prosecution witnesses who
told conflicting stories that, at a minimum, should have resulted in an
acquittal on the basis of reasonable doubt. When you combine this
doubtful testimony with the strong declarations of other crew members who
lauded Marsaw as a demanding yet fair commander -- someone they said
they would trust with their lives (no small measure of endorsement from a
submarine crew) -- you wonder how the thing even got to the court martial
stage. The charges should have been dismissed outright.

The program cited two possible reasons why they weren't:

1. A few junior officers who felt abused by Marsaw had reason to fear for
their careers in submarines because Marsaw's next assignment was to
establish and run a Canadian submarine commanders course similar to the
esteemed Royal Navy Perisher course that ruthlessly weeds out those unfit
for submarine command. Obviously, if Marsaw had found these officers
wanting when they served under him, they would probably be washed out of
any sub commander's course that he ran. Therefore these junior officers,
who relayed tales of abuse, had reason to want Marsaw sidelined.

2. The senior command of the Canadian Armed Forces wanted an officer's
head on a platter and Marsaw's was conveniently at hand. At the time of
the investigation and trial, lowly Airborne grunt Kyle Brown was the only
one doing time for the Somalia affair. Up to then all officers involved
had escaped punishment leading the public to believe that the military
justice system was harder on enlisted ranks than on commissioned
officers. The Marsaw case was a chance to restore the public's
perception of balance, shaky evidence be damned. The bugger had to walk
the plank.

In addition to the devestation this conviction has caused Marsaw, an
exemplary officer with an impeccable record, and his family, there is the
wider implication for the country of a military command structure and
justice system that appears to be rotten and corrupt. What kind of an
armed forces do we have? Why would any young Canadian want to serve his
or her country in an organization that can so easily and gladly sacrifice
a rising star like Marsaw to the political needs of the moment? No wonder
forces morale is rock bottom.

Justice and common decency demand that Collenette stay this conviction
and order a new and fair CIVILIAN trial for Marsaw. Obviously a military
tribunal, with hidden agendas to serve, is incapable of judging this man
solely on the basis of the evidence (or lack of it).

All this happened on Collenette's watch. He can't blame Mulroney. It is
up to him to put things right.

John D.

Patrick Smithers

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Oct 2, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/2/96
to JMD

JMD wrote:
>
> A major injustice is about to be done to a serving officer of the
> Canadian Navy. Right now the fate of LCdr Dean Marsaw, former
> skipper of the submarine Ojibway, is in the hands of Defence Minister
> Collenette, the Col. Klink of Canadian public life.

Actually, it's HMCS/M OJIBWA.

> On Oct. 1, CBC's Fifth Estate detailed Marsaw's case. It resulted in his

--- details of the CBC report snipped to save space - I'm sure everyone saw it. ---

- you wonder how the thing even got to the court martial
> stage. The charges should have been dismissed outright.

While I don't know any deatils of the case for a fact and I wouldn't comment on the
case even if I knew something about it, I would suggest that you consider the source of
the news report. If you pay attention to what was ACTUALLY SAID in the report, vice what
was implied, I believe you would find that the CBC engaged in a great deal of
unsupported and uncorroborated inuendo mixed with a small bit of fact and a large dose
of Mr. Marsaw's personal opinion.

The CBC is a lot more interested in the BIG RATINGS that an allegation of military
scandal will generate than it is interested in telling both sides of the story in an
accurate and fair manner. The only thing missing from this report was the Hard Copy
theme music.

Trash journalism appears to be the in thing with the CBC these days. I hope this changes
when they start feeling the pinch of their budget cuts.

I was rather amused at the psychologist's suggestion of military scandal. I suppose she
is an expert on it - the CBC seems to think so. (Do psychiatrists take professional
training in scandal recognition?)



> The program cited two possible reasons why they weren't:

And not a single word supporting the other side of the story.



> 2. The senior command of the Canadian Armed Forces wanted an officer's
> head on a platter and Marsaw's was conveniently at hand. At the time of
> the investigation and trial, lowly Airborne grunt Kyle Brown was the only
> one doing time for the Somalia affair. Up to then all officers involved
> had escaped punishment leading the public to believe that the military
> justice system was harder on enlisted ranks than on commissioned
> officers. The Marsaw case was a chance to restore the public's
> perception of balance, shaky evidence be damned. The bugger had to walk
> the plank.

You are comparing apples and oranges and calling them grapefruit. The two incidents had
nothing in common, and they weren't even tried at the same level in the chain of
command. What's more, the Marsaw case was old news before the Somalia issue blew up.



> In addition to the devestation this conviction has caused Marsaw, an
> exemplary officer with an impeccable record

Or so he said. As if anyone would publicly pan their own performance unless they had
something to gain by it.

> No wonder forces morale is rock bottom.

Morale has nothing to do with this or any other media-hyped military scandal. The
average sailor, soldier or airman probably couldn't care less about what is happening to
the senior officers and general officer ranks. That is like saying that a GM or Ford
assembly plant worker would have low moral because of his CEO's reputation. Not!

The average man in the CF worries about his pay, his trade progression, his career
prospects, and his ability to make ends meet; if there is low morale in the CF, these
are the rel reasons why, NOT what senior officer is making headlines.

> Justice and common decency demand that Collenette stay this conviction
> and order a new and fair CIVILIAN trial for Marsaw.

No, the CBC demanded it. I guess they have run out of milk from the Somolia Inquiry.
Interesting, how NewsWorld quit covering the Inquiry as soon as the issue of lying to
the media was put aside.

> Obviously a military tribunal, with hidden agendas to serve, is incapable of judging
>this man solely on the basis of the evidence (or lack of it).

Oh, and the CBC is the champion of justice? They might be is they bothered to give a
balanced report. Unfortunately, trash wins ratings with the national news service.

T.J. Last

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Oct 2, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/2/96
to JMD

JMD wrote:
> <snip>

>
In addition to the devestation this conviction has caused Marsaw, an
> exemplary officer with an impeccable record, and his family, there is the wider implication for the country of a military command structure and
justice system that appears to be rotten and corrupt. What kind of an
> armed forces do we have? Why would any young Canadian want to serve his or her country in an organization that can so easily and gladly sacrifice a rising star like Marsaw to the political needs of the moment? No wonder forces morale is rock bottom.
>
TARGET! TARGET STOP!

OmniPresent

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Oct 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/3/96
to

Excellent article! It is rare we see a worthwhile post here.
One thing that has not come to light in this situation, is the
intimidation, threats and coercion potential defense witnesses were
subject to. This was brought to 2 Admirals attention and several
other high ranking officers. The Military police were aware as well.
Serving members have NO protection from the very system in place to
protect us. When 2 Admirals are passed a report of an investigation
completed by the Fleet Chief Petty Officer clearly stating an
individual was ganged up upon by Senior Officers, one would think
there would be action taken. It was then ignored. How could action
be taken against other submarine Commanding Officers in this
politically sensitive time? The Head of AJAG in Halifax LCol Watkins
was aware as well. If fact he assisted the Fleet Chief Petty Officer.
The member in question was lied to, he was told there was NO report by
several persons. Well, for that member, if you read this newsgroup,
here is a reference you may want to access: (N 00 Comd) MARL: 5203 -
(SERVICE NUMBER) MARSAW CM 24 APRIL 1996. Read the enclosure! Can't
be much more clearer for this. By the way, the letter has Admiral
Garnett's signature accompanying it. But, I suppose he is not
accountable, as the CDS claims not to be. The Military treats it's
people poorly! They should be appalled. Corruption such as this
being done with full knowledge of the people entrusted to uphold the
rights of serving members. This particular member probably will live
with this for the rest of they're life. knowing full well what will
happen if he speaks out. My advice to that member is to speak out
publicly as Marsaw did. Show the Canadian public what our Military
really defends.

OmniPresent

Rob Kamphuis

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Oct 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/3/96
to


JMD <word...@fox.nstn.ca> wrote in article <52u56q$d...@news.istar.ca>...
>
>snip


>
> On Oct. 1, CBC's Fifth Estate detailed Marsaw's case. It resulted in his

> court martial conviction, including a recommendation he be kicked out of
> the navy. The program described a case built on shaky and contradictory
> evidence.
>

>snip
>
> John D.
>

Sorry, but in my opinion the CBC's report was much too one-sided to draw
any real
conclusions. The truth, should it ever be found, probably lies somewhere
in the
middle between Marsaw's view, and that of the Navy's.

Just my 2 cents worth....


--
________________
Rob Kamphuis
rk...@fox.nstn.ca
________________

Arved Sandstrom

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Oct 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/3/96
to

In article <52u56q$d...@news.istar.ca> JMD <word...@fox.nstn.ca> writes:
>A major injustice is about to be done to a serving officer of the
>Canadian Navy. Right now the fate of LCdr Dean Marsaw, former
>skipper of the submarine Ojibway, is in the hands of Defence Minister
>Collenette, the Col. Klink of Canadian public life.
>
[ Much reasonable stuff snipped]

>John D.

I saw the program as well, and while being from Hfx-Dartmouth, there was a
lot of stuff in there that I had never heard of before. If the allegations
in the program can be substantiated, there is no way you can support the
navy on this.

Much of the prosecutorial evidence as shown by the videos is laughable. You
mean to say that people only swore and acted like that on Marsaw's boat?
Give me a break. In the Marines, I saw folks have their lights punched out
because they were about to do something dangerous. Others were deliberately
and roughly shoved aside during combat or exercise evolutions just because
they were in the way.

What are you supposed to do? "Please, Lance Corporal, can you stand aside?"

If you can't handle verbal abuse or *appropriate* physical action in the
military (or I suppose, the police, either), you don't have much business
being in there.

By the standards I saw being applied to Dean Marsaw at his CM, half the
people I served with would have been kicked out.

And Jesus, a cigar tube in a guy's butt at a party. Who cares? I've seen much
worse.
--
Arved H. Sandstrom * YISDER
Dartmouth, Nova Scotia * ZOMENIMOR
(at least for now) * ORZIZZAZIZ
best email: asnd...@emerald.bio.dfo.ca * ZANZERIZ ORZIZ

lap...@mis.ca

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Oct 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/3/96
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In article <01bbb133$e7461980$bd7935c6@q1s8u2>,
"Rob Kamphuis" <rk...@fox.nstn.ca> wrote:


JMD <word...@fox.nstn.ca> wrote in article <52u56q$d...@news.istar.ca>...
>
>snip
>
> On Oct. 1, CBC's Fifth Estate detailed Marsaw's case. It resulted in his
> court martial conviction, including a recommendation he be kicked out of
> the navy. The program described a case built on shaky and contradictory
> evidence.
>
>snip
>
> John D.
>

Sorry, but in my opinion the CBC's report was much too one-sided to draw
any real
conclusions. The truth, should it ever be found, probably lies somewhere
in the
middle between Marsaw's view, and that of the Navy's.

Just my 2 cents worth....


Funny, that to the press the military is to blame for not taking action. Then
when it does, it is also to blame. No wonder the soldiers feel like pinatas.


EDUCATED

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Oct 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/3/96
to

On Wed, 02 Oct 1996 20:34:52 -0700, Patrick Smithers
<psmi...@ns.sympatico.ca>

I know there is a gentleman with the surname of Smithers who is
a high ranking member of the Judge Advocate Generals Office in
Halifax. Would this be the same Smithers? If so, I would like to
know when the charges of purgery are going to be laid against those
who lied. This was clearly evident from the videotapes of the
Military Police interviews. I suppose that evidence is not sufficient
for the military.

As well, what about the previous post about the member of the
military who was threatened and intimidated into silence? If in fact,
this has been done with the knowledge of officers of Admiral rank,
they to should have to answer for their GROSS misconduct. If there
is a paper trail to substantiate these allegations, I would urge
them to bring them forward into the public forum. However, as I have
read, they do not have that luxury without fear of reprisals from
their employers. This is a double standard. I would suggest the RCMP
now get involved. Witness tampering, and purgery are Criminal Code
offences. Perhaps the RCMP are free of the influence of the Military
Justice System. Once again, this government proves that Human Rights
are only for those who can afford it. It appears very clear that the
Military Police are unable to conduct an investigation of this
magnitude, without threatening witnesses as they were seen doing on
the videotapes released. Who when asked " Should I begin to CAUTION
YOU NOW " , can say they did not feel threatened or intimidated. On
CBC radio MORNINGSIDE, October 1, 1996, I heard Linden Mac Intyre
say the first thing they did in their interview with Lt. Steven Kelk
was read him his RIGHTS. It is no wonder the man did not want to
come forward as he was put on the defensive from the beginning. They
did not treat him like a victim? WHY did they treat him like a
CRIMINAL? The Military Justice System obviously did not want his
story to become public knowledge. In fact by watching the Fifth
Estate and the Military Police Videotapes he was not the only person
CAUTIONED. This is a distinct form of INTIMIDATION by the two
Military Police Officers interviewing witnesses. Accusing witnesses
of LYING to make a case more court-worthy is showing extreme prejudice
against LCdr. Marsaw. This leads me to believe they had ORDERS from
AJAG to gather only negative information to secure a conviction.

The public, who pays the salary of the Military through OUR Tax
dollars, DESERVES to know the dirty tricks their military "LEADERS"
use to deceive the Canadian public.

EDUCATED

steven jeffrey drews

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Oct 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/3/96
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Arved Sandstrom (ar...@cs.dal.ca) wrote:

: Much of the prosecutorial evidence as shown by the videos is laughable. You


: mean to say that people only swore and acted like that on Marsaw's boat?
: Give me a break. In the Marines, I saw folks have their lights punched out
: because they were about to do something dangerous. Others were deliberately
: and roughly shoved aside during combat or exercise evolutions just because
: they were in the way.

: What are you supposed to do? "Please, Lance Corporal, can you stand aside?"

No, in the CF you say "Please stop or I will be required under section
blah blah blah of the QR and O's to ask you to stop again."


: If you can't handle verbal abuse or *appropriate* physical action in the


: military (or I suppose, the police, either), you don't have much business
: being in there.

From a few of the statement I saw on the TV.... alot of SR NCOs and
Occifer types were afraid
they would not pass the standards course that Marsaw was to establish and
head.

: And Jesus, a cigar tube in a guy's butt at a party. Who cares? I've seen much
: worse.

But they could'nt get their story straight and the one Officer lied to
the investigators (who were those questioners ? SIU ? It was like they
dredegd a fucking trailer park for them) but tried to implicate Marsaw...
which leads me to state what I have always believed.... don't trust
the CF judicial system because they will make an apple an orange over
nothing but will promote the real fuck ups.


SJ Drews
grad student in hell

John Angus

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Oct 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/3/96
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Patrick Smithers (psmi...@ns.sympatico.ca) writes:
> The CBC is a lot more interested in the BIG RATINGS that an allegation of
> military scandal will generate than it is interested in telling both
> sides of the story in an accurate and fair manner. The only thing
> missing from this report was the Hard Copy theme music.
>
> Trash journalism appears to be the in thing with the CBC these days.

Only the CBC? Obviously you missed Lloyd Robertson's breathless story on
the CTV news the other night. It seems (brace yourself) the navy is
investigating a report that two strippers were smuggled on board a frigate
for an off-duty party.

My God. Next they'll be telling us not all the sailors are virgins.

JA

--
"Life, Liberty, & the Pursuit of Happiness" es...@cleveland.freenet.edu
_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_
"Peace, Order, & Good Government" an...@freenet.carleton.ca

Patrick Smithers

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Oct 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/3/96
to EDUCATED

EDUCATED wrote:

0:34:52 -0700, Patrick Smithers
> <psmi...@ns.sympatico.ca>
> I know there is a gentleman with the surname of Smithers who is
> a high ranking member of the Judge Advocate Generals Office in
> Halifax. Would this be the same Smithers? If so, I would like to
> know when the charges of purgery are going to be laid against those
> who lied.

No, I am not Major John Smithers, who as you guessed works in the AJAG office. But I
find it surprising that you would actually think a lawyer would comment on a case he is
associated with ( by employment) on the internet. First, such comments would be
unprofessional and unethical from both a legal and a military point of view. Second, why
would he care what individuals post here, since this is a forum for personal opinion
more than anything else?

I wonder who is guilty of purgery. I do not know, nor do I pretend to know any
facts of the case, or to render an opinion of it. I refer you to the "lying to the
media" thread which was kicked around here some time ago. Consider it. Also consider
that many things stated to the CBC may have ended up on their cutting room floor, in the
quest for ratings points.

> As well, what about the previous post about the member of the
> military who was threatened and intimidated into silence? If in fact,
> this has been done with the knowledge of officers of Admiral rank,
> they to should have to answer for their GROSS misconduct. If there
> is a paper trail to substantiate these allegations, I would urge
> them to bring them forward into the public forum.

Why? It isn't public business.

> However, as I have

<lots of stuff about naval officers lying due to fear of reprisal snipped>

Did anyone but me bother to notice that the Court Martial was neither ordered by nor
chaired by a Naval Officer? Food for thought.

Reading someone their rights is standard procedure in all police agencies where the
credibility of a witness is in question or the witness himself is already implicated in
an alleged crime.

< lots of conjecture about a BIG MILITARY CONSPIRACY snipped >

> The public, who pays the salary of the Military through OUR Tax
> dollars, DESERVES to know the dirty tricks their military "LEADERS"
> use to deceive the Canadian public.

What the public really deserves to know is the whole story, not just the self-serving
one-sided trash journalism which the CBC engaged in with it's report.

Ed Goertzen

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Oct 4, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/4/96
to

In article <52u56q$d...@news.istar.ca>,
JMD <word...@fox.nstn.ca> wrote:

J> A major injustice is about to be done to a serving officer of the
J> Canadian Navy. Right now the fate of LCdr Dean Marsaw, former
J> skipper of the submarine Ojibway, is in the hands of Defence
J> Minister Collenette, the Col. Klink of Canadian public life.

I've read a little about this in the newspapers with not nearly the details
that were possibly a motivator.

If you had included the Hon. Minister's E-Mail I would have sent him my
disgust also!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------
Ed Goertzen E-mail: ad855.freenet.durham.org
Surfing the Internet/Fidonet/Usenet on a wsOMR!(20:49:47, Oshawa, Ont.)
--------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dave Diduck

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Oct 4, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/4/96
to

On 3 Oct 1996 23:59:53 GMT, an...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (John Angus)
wrote:

>
>Patrick Smithers (psmi...@ns.sympatico.ca) writes:
>> The CBC is a lot more interested in the BIG RATINGS that an allegation of
>> military scandal will generate than it is interested in telling both
>> sides of the story in an accurate and fair manner. The only thing
>> missing from this report was the Hard Copy theme music.
>>
>> Trash journalism appears to be the in thing with the CBC these days.
>
>Only the CBC? Obviously you missed Lloyd Robertson's breathless story on
>the CTV news the other night. It seems (brace yourself) the navy is
>investigating a report that two strippers were smuggled on board a frigate
>for an off-duty party.
>
>My God. Next they'll be telling us not all the sailors are virgins.
>

"Single men in barracks don't grow into plaster saints." R Kipling.

I wonder what would they'd say if Captain Highliner and (have you ever
been to sea?) Billie came on board?

>"Life, Liberty, & the Pursuit of Happiness" es...@cleveland.freenet.edu
>_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_
>"Peace, Order, & Good Government" an...@freenet.carleton.ca

Still like the top line

Cheers
--
Dave Diduck
1123 Fort St
Regina Sk S4T 5R9
Ph 306-543-3999
or 306-949-8359
Visit my web page: <http://www.sasknet.com/~didue>

Colin R. Leech

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Oct 4, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/4/96
to

JMD (word...@fox.nstn.ca) writes:
> 2. The senior command of the Canadian Armed Forces wanted an officer's
> head on a platter and Marsaw's was conveniently at hand. At the time of
> the investigation and trial, lowly Airborne grunt Kyle Brown was the only
> one doing time for the Somalia affair. Up to then all officers involved
> had escaped punishment leading the public to believe that the military
> justice system was harder on enlisted ranks than on commissioned
> officers. The Marsaw case was a chance to restore the public's
> perception of balance, shaky evidence be damned. The bugger had to walk
> the plank.

Ah yes, conspiracy theories abound everywhere.

I don't know enough of the story to judge the merits of your other points,
so I'll leave that to others. But this part is crap.

--
##### |\^/| Colin R. Leech ag414 or crl...@freenet.carleton.ca
##### _|\| |/|_ Civil engineer by training, transport planner by choice.
##### > < Opinions are my own. Consider them shareware if you want.
##### >_./|\._< "If you can't return a favour, pass it on." - A.L. Brown

Arved Sandstrom

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Oct 4, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/4/96
to

In article <532a03$a...@freenet-news.carleton.ca> ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Colin R. Leech) writes:
>
>JMD (word...@fox.nstn.ca) writes:
>> 2. The senior command of the Canadian Armed Forces wanted an officer's
>> head on a platter and Marsaw's was conveniently at hand. At the time of
>> the investigation and trial, lowly Airborne grunt Kyle Brown was the only
>> one doing time for the Somalia affair. Up to then all officers involved
>> had escaped punishment leading the public to believe that the military
>> justice system was harder on enlisted ranks than on commissioned
>> officers. The Marsaw case was a chance to restore the public's
>> perception of balance, shaky evidence be damned. The bugger had to walk
>> the plank.
>
>Ah yes, conspiracy theories abound everywhere.
>
>I don't know enough of the story to judge the merits of your other points,
>so I'll leave that to others. But this part is crap.
>
>##### |\^/| Colin R. Leech ag414 or crl...@freenet.carleton.ca

Oh, why? It's unrealistic to leap on it as the only possibility, but it's
not logical to automatically dismiss it.

If the man was convicted despite flawed evidence (and I'm not saying this is
the case, but to me it looks that way), you have to consider several
explanations:

(1) The judges erred;

(2) There was pressure on the judges to return a conviction.

Also, even if LT Marsaw was guilty as charged, one has to consider this: if
he actually had such a sensational record (and he needs to prove this -
personally when I was in I frequently reviewed my SRB, medical and dental
records, and made certified copies of critical pages, and I have all of my
awards documentation) didn't all of his higher chain of command make a
serious error of judgment at some stage, by failing to recognise character
flaws?

I don't see this case as reflecting anything good about the higher echelons
in Maritime Command.

JMD

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Oct 4, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/4/96
to

Rob Kamphuis wrote:
>
> JMD <word...@fox.nstn.ca> wrote in article <52u56q$d...@news.istar.ca>...
> >
> >snip
> >
> > On Oct. 1, CBC's Fifth Estate detailed Marsaw's case. It resulted in his
> > court martial conviction, including a recommendation he be kicked out of
> > the navy. The program described a case built on shaky and contradictory
> > evidence.
> >
> >snip
> >
> > John D.
> >
>
> Sorry, but in my opinion the CBC's report was much too one-sided to draw
> any real
> conclusions. The truth, should it ever be found, probably lies somewhere
> in the
> middle between Marsaw's view, and that of the Navy's.
>
> Just my 2 cents worth....
>
> --
> ________________
> Rob Kamphuis
> rk...@fox.nstn.ca
> ________________

Perhaps the truth does lie in the middle. If so, doesn't that constitute
a reasonable doubt? All the more reason in my view to reopen this case.

JMD

Educated

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Oct 5, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/5/96
to

On 4 Oct 1996 17:24:54 GMT, JMD <word...@istar.ca> wrote:
>> ________________
>
>Perhaps the truth does lie in the middle. If so, doesn't that constitute
>a reasonable doubt? All the more reason in my view to reopen this case.
>
>JMD


Couldn't aggree with you more. The case should be re-opened!
NOT by the Military. There has been so much intimidation and threats
by AJAG, Military Police, Commanding Officers, Executive Officers and
others, I thing the only reasonable thing to do in this case is for
the RCMP to look into it. My husband was one of those threatened.
Admirals, Senior Command NCO's, and Chiefs of Staff were all aware of
this. I wrote them, and my husband pleaded for their help. My husband
has proof of this, IN WRITING. He cannot presue this in the Military
without fear of reprisal. He will not speak to the MP's anymore. An
independant police investigating authority MUST be appointed.


EDUCATED

glenn

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Oct 8, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/8/96
to

i think the real truth is somewhere up that guys ass. :)

Ken McVay OBC

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Oct 8, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/8/96
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In article <325abc6b...@nntp.netcruiser>,
m...@netcom.ca (Kevin Crowell) wrote:

> I personally feel you now owe this individual a public
>apology in this forum. I can only hope you never have to endure a
>personal tragedy of the magnitude in your career.

If the facts, as reported on CBC, were accurate, Canada owes
this sailor a _big_ apology. His treatment, given that the
supposed "victim" of his "crime" could not recall any such
happening, is absolutely shameful.

It's almost as if the Navy, failing to have humiliated itself
in Somalia, decided to get stupid and make up for it.

--
Nizkor Canada | http://www.nizkor.org
-----------------------| Remember John Hron
|--------------------------------------
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/h/hron-john/

Kevin Crowell

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Oct 8, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/8/96
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On 8 Oct 1996 06:35:35 GMT, glenn <lar...@netidea.com> wrote:
>i think the real truth is somewhere up that guys ass. :)

In response to your very ignorant post of this gentleman, I
have to say that you are a very close minded and uninformed
individual. Obviously you have not followed the story too well or
out of shear malice have made these most insulting comments.

Publically as a serving member of the CF, I cannot express any
views on the merits of the case presently under appeal. I can
however, as a private citizen and a personal aquaintance of the Marsaw
family express to you just how devastating this ordeal has been on a
family, especially a nine year old girl. It is the disregard for the
feelings of the family involved and those others, which you have so
publically displayed, cause greater problems for the family. I take
it you are NOT a military member. When you have the intestinal
fortitude to spend months away from home and your family, cooped up in
a 295' 6 1/4" sewer pipe, or when you can prove to me that you have
the intellectual capability to comprehend the statement you have
written, come and talk to me.

glenn

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Oct 9, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/9/96
to Ken McVay OBC

I send a heart felt "Sorry" for the statement made by me. I intended
no harm to anyone.

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