Right of members to sign petitions
patrick savoie
have the right to sign political petitions? or any other type? I believe
that in the past this was not allowed but a lot of the regs on political
activities by memebers of the Forces have changed, evolved or been ignored
recently.
The reason I am asking is that there is a website that asks for signature
for a petitions to have the Snowbird's Tutor aircraft replaced with a newer
aircraft, probably the Hawk, and I was wondering if I could get into trouble
if I sign it.
I've asked my chain of command, but haven't recieved an answer yet (been 2
weeks .. but then this is not a high priority request for sure).
Thanks
Pat
Jack
"patrick savoie" <patric...@videotron.ca> wrote in message
news:EY%ec.77016$2G5.2...@wagner.videotron.net...
Blaeden
the people who sign them feel like they are doing something when the
petitions don't really do much at all) but I would think that as long as you
sign it as "Joe Blow" vice "Sgt Joe Blow, CFB Somewhere" it wouldn't matter.
If we can have political signs on our front lawns (not if you are living on
a base mind you) I don't see why, as a private citizen, you can't sign your
name on something to make yourself feel better.
"Jack" <m...@you.com> wrote in message
news:o_%ec.18183$Np3.6...@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca...
Dave
news:EY%ec.77016$2G5.2...@wagner.videotron.net...
The answer you're looking for would be located in QR&O 19.36 or QR&O
19.44, located at
http://www.dnd.ca/admfincs/subjects/qr_o/vol1/ch019_e.asp.
Unfortunately, you'd need a rather large legal team to come to some kind
of consensus over the interpretation of the QR&Os in question.
GD legalese...in the process of making the legislation air and
water-tight, it's also been made unintelligible to the layman.
Dave
Andrew Chaplin
One of my secondary duties is as a clerk of petitions in the House of
Commons. Petitions that meet the requirements (see S.O. 36 at
http://www.parl.gc.ca/information/about/process/house/standingorders/chap4-e.htm)
and that are presented by an M.P. are turned over to the Privy Council
Office so that the government can respond to the "clear, proper and
respectful prayer"; PCO co-ordinates the gathering of the info and
compile the response. As I understand it, the identities of
petitioners are not divulged by PCO to the department involved (we
treat petitions as if they contained very sensitive information, but
that's primarily because the Member who has submitted them for
certification may or may not present them, and we cannot presuppose).
The issue of signing petitions in the CF is rather different.
Petitions are not mentioned in Chapter 19, and the only restrictions
on what you might sign would seem to come from QR&O 19.09: "No officer
or non-commissioned member shall attempt to obtain favourable
consideration on any matter relating to the member’s service by the
use of influence from sources outside the Canadian Forces." Of course,
you also have to keep in mind QR&O 19.44(7):
No member of the Regular Force shall:
(a) take an active part in the affairs of a political organization or
party;
(b) make a political speech to electors, or announce himself or allow
himself to be announced as a candidate, or prospective candidate, for
election to the Parliament of Canada or a provincial legislature; or
(c) except with the permission of the Chief of the Defence Staff,
accept an office in a municipal corporation or other local government
body or allow himself to be nominated for election to such office.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)
-- Ole --
-- This is a very intersting situation Andrew,
Patrick's suggestion WRT signing a petition, or in fact overtly
protesting government policy in lets say & god forbid, an
anti-globalization march....would (IMHO) not contraven any of the
policies/QR&Os you have sighted.
To petition the government or participate in an "organized" peaceful
protest activity, would be self-serving persay, nor would it be announcing
oneself as a candidate, nor do I feel that it would be "making a political
speech to electors".
In fact if anything, it (petition or protest march) would be directed
at the elected, not the electors, in one's capacity as a citizen, not as a
uniformed soldier, representing the military ???
Am I on track here, or would the RCMP be knocking at my door the next
day ? (instead of chasing "evil-doers") 8:)
----------------
Cheers .....Todd
-addicted to fresh home roasted Costa Rican Tarrazu
- in Spruce Grove - Alberta - Canada
Electric technology is directly related to our central nervous system, so
it is ridiculous to talk of "what the public wants" played over its nerves.
Once we have surrendered our senses and nervous systems to the private
manipulation of those who would try to benefit from taking a lease on our
eyes and ears and nerves, we don't really have any rights left. -Marshall
McLuhan -
"Andrew Chaplin" <abch...@yourfinger.rogers.com> wrote in message
news:407C9B8E...@yourfinger.rogers.com...
Andrew Chaplin
>
> -- This is a very intersting situation Andrew,
>
> Patrick's suggestion WRT signing a petition, or in fact overtly
> protesting government policy in lets say & god forbid, an
> anti-globalization march....would (IMHO) not contraven any of the
> policies/QR&Os you have sighted.
> To petition the government or participate in an "organized" peaceful
> protest activity, would be self-serving persay, nor would it be announcing
> oneself as a candidate, nor do I feel that it would be "making a political
> speech to electors".
>
> In fact if anything, it (petition or protest march) would be directed
> at the elected, not the electors, in one's capacity as a citizen, not as a
> uniformed soldier, representing the military ???
>
> Am I on track here, or would the RCMP be knocking at my door the next
> day ? (instead of chasing "evil-doers") 8:)
Soldiers have rights too. If you direct your letters or petitions to
Parliament, then you are exercising a right guaranteed under Magna
Carta. (One of the main reasons parliamentary democracy has persisted
since then is because of pressure release mechanisms built into it.)
You should just do it as a citizen. If it concerns your in your
capacity as a member of the CF, then it should follow the grievance or
whatever other routes the service provides first.
<Helmets on>
In the run-up to the referendum in 1995, my wife, sister, brother*,
sister-in-law* and I crammed into our Pathfinder and set off for
Montreal for the big rally. We parked at the Cote-des-Neiges armoury
and then took the bus down to Dominion Square (on the bus we met my
sister's bosses and family). In the Square we met a scad of staff
officers from what was left of LFC at St-Hubert, some of whom were in
uniform. After the fooferah in the Square, we adjourned to Hurley's,
where we met even more soldiers. I asked one of their number, a former
roommate who is now a full bull, what the Hell he was doing there. He
said, "I thought of Canada coming apart and my kids asking me what I
had done to prevent it, and I did not want to have to say, 'Nothing'".
The rally was as overtly political an act can get without signing a
party card. Last I heard all these staff wieinies were flourishing.
* These two were on short leave from 33 Bde. I was on terminal leave
and attending university, and my wife and sister were/are sensibly
civvy.
</Helmets on>
Jay
> In the run-up to the referendum in 1995, my wife, sister, brother*,
> sister-in-law* and I crammed into our Pathfinder and set off for
> Montreal for the big rally. We parked at the Cote-des-Neiges armoury
> and then took the bus down to Dominion Square (on the bus we met my
> sister's bosses and family). In the Square we met a scad of staff
> officers from what was left of LFC at St-Hubert, some of whom were in
> uniform. After the fooferah in the Square, we adjourned to Hurley's,
> where we met even more soldiers. I asked one of their number, a former
> roommate who is now a full bull, what the Hell he was doing there. He
> said, "I thought of Canada coming apart and my kids asking me what I
> had done to prevent it, and I did not want to have to say, 'Nothing'".
>
> The rally was as overtly political an act can get without signing a
> party card. Last I heard all these staff wieinies were flourishing.
I was living in Hull at the time, working 12-hour shifts at
Disneyland-on-the-Rideau, so I couldn't make it to Montreal. however,
I left work and went directly to the polling booth in uniform. A
couple of the workers there found it somewhat amusing.
That being said, that particular poll was one in which I can
definitely say my vote counted.
Jay
AY
> Soldiers have rights too. If you direct your letters or petitions to
> Parliament, then you are exercising a right guaranteed under Magna
> Carta. (One of the main reasons parliamentary democracy has persisted
> since then is because of pressure release mechanisms built into it.)
> You should just do it as a citizen. If it concerns your in your
> capacity as a member of the CF, then it should follow the grievance or
> whatever other routes the service provides first.
Magna Carta speaks about seeking redress of grievances via the barons,
so I suppose it is the origin of the petitioning of Parliament . The
Bill of Rights (1689), though it speaks of petitioning the monarch, is
more direct:
"That it is the right of the subjects to petition the King, and all
committments and prosecutions for such petitioning are illegal."
andrew
Charmion Chaplin-Thomas
> In the run-up to the referendum in 1995, my wife, sister, brother*,
> sister-in-law* and I crammed into our Pathfinder and set off for
> Montreal for the big rally.
[large snip]
> The rally was as overtly political an act can get without signing a
> party card. Last I heard all these staff wieinies were flourishing.
>
> * These two were on short leave from 33 Bde. I was on terminal leave
> and attending university, and my wife and sister were/are sensibly
> civvy.
> </Helmets on>
Brother dear, you have forgotten who else was crammed in that car with
us -- one Major Edmund Thomas of the Legal Branch, with a full-sized
fleur-de-lys flag and a haversack full of cheese sandwiches. I think I
remember you saying that you construed his presence as a legal opinion
that those still in the mob were in the clear.
Did Andy McNaughton resign his commission before he accepted the post
of Minister of National Defence in 1944?
I think prosecutions for unapproved political activity tend to occur
when the government disagrees with the goal ...
Charmion
Andrew Chaplin
> Brother dear, you have forgotten who else was crammed in that car with
> us -- one Major Edmund Thomas of the Legal Branch, with a full-sized
> fleur-de-lys flag and a haversack full of cheese sandwiches. I think I
> remember you saying that you construed his presence as a legal opinion
> that those still in the mob were in the clear.
And since the Pathfinder holds only five, that means our sister-in-law
was not there. Well, I knew it had to be one of my in-laws with jump
wings. Sorry, Edmund. Pax.
> Did Andy McNaughton resign his commission before he accepted the post
> of Minister of National Defence in 1944?
I believe he was on the retired list as a result of losing his gig as
GOC, First Canadian Army.
> I think prosecutions for unapproved political activity tend to occur
> when the government disagrees with the goal ...
I can't argue with that.
patrick savoie
"Andrew Chaplin" <abch...@yourfinger.rogers.com> a écrit dans le message
de news:40819829...@yourfinger.rogers.com...
> Charmion Chaplin-Thomas wrote:
>
<snip>
> > I think prosecutions for unapproved political activity tend to occur
> > when the government disagrees with the goal ...
>
> I can't argue with that.
> --
> Andrew Chaplin
> SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
> (If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)
I can't argue with that either ... but I can't take that and act as a
barrack-lawyer at my unit.
Any ideas where I could find out anyone? Can serving members of the Forces
sign political petitions? Is it written in black & white ..or is it judged
on a case-by-case basis?
Pat
Michael Cuell
>
> I can't argue with that either ... but I can't take that and act as a
> barrack-lawyer at my unit.
>
> Any ideas where I could find out anyone? Can serving members of the Forces
> sign political petitions? Is it written in black & white ..or is it judged
> on a case-by-case basis?
>
> Pat
>
19.10 - COMBINATIONS FORBIDDEN
No officer or non-commissioned member shall without authority:
(a) combine with other members for the purpose of bringing about alterations
in existing regulations for the Canadian Forces;
(b) sign with other members memorials, petitions or applications relating to
the Canadian Forces; or
(c) obtain or solicit signatures for memorials, petitions or applications
relating to the Canadian Forces.
Given the foregoing... if the petition did not involve or impact the
Canadian Forces, it should be ok.
Michael
patrick savoie
"Michael Cuell" <mcuell.g.a...@mts.net> a écrit dans le message de
news:Yongc.3623$AL1....@news1.mts.net...
OK ...well the petition I was thinking about is for the replacement of the
Snowbird's A/C. Definately involving the CF. I guess we can not sihn it if
serving in the CF.
Thanks
Pat
Charmion Chaplin-Thomas
Hello, Pat:
I have consulted in-house counsel (my husband, a legal officer) who
agrees with the well-informed individual elsewhere in this thread who
wrote that, if you sign yourself Patrick Savoie of your home address
(i.e., just another citizen), rather than by rank and unit, any
complaint against you would be legally legless. Edmund's reasoning was
the same as that of those posters who wrote that a soldier is a
citizen too, and has a citizen's rights -- including petitioning
Parliament.
So if you care, go ahead and sign as a citizen. And if anyone bothers
you about it, demand to be charged, request military counsel, and
fight like hell.
Charmion
patrick savoie
"Charmion Chaplin-Thomas" <blue.g...@rogers.com> a écrit dans le message
de news:74be0aa0.04041...@posting.google.com...
Thank you. Although if I sign the petition it would be to exercise my right,
not to cause a legal battle.
I agree with the general thread here, that service members are citizen &
have the same legal rights, but there is a caveat involved. As members of
the military force of the nation we have some restrictions applied to our
citizen's rights. For example; we can be ordered into harm's way (basic
premise of military service), our right to travel can be restricted or
denigned (all other citizens may chose to live anywhere in Canada ... travel
between provinces .. a right that is sometimes serverly restricted in other
countries), and most importantly we are subject to the CF Code of Conduct.
The OPME on military laws clearly states this.
Nevertheless, I believe your in-house counsel and CFAO 99-9 seems to support
this ... it states,"Members of the CF shall ensure at any time that their
acts and conduct do not affect the actual or perceived neutrality of the
CF." So I shall sign the petition soon .... but I will not sign my unit name
and/or openly discuss it at work.
Thanks all.
Pat
-- Ole --
--
----------------
Cheers .....Todd
-addicted to fresh home roasted Costa Rican Tarrazu
- in Spruce Grove - Alberta - Canada
Electric technology is directly related to our central nervous system, so
it is ridiculous to talk of "what the public wants" played over its nerves.
Once we have surrendered our senses and nervous systems to the private
manipulation of those who would try to benefit from taking a lease on our
eyes and ears and nerves, we don't really have any rights left. -Marshall
McLuhan -
"-- Ole --" <olecur...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:LI1fc.111027$oR5.7123@pd7tw3no...