Return to Cornwallis
Sparky
The 'basic training' thread got me thinking about my trip to the former
HMCS/CFB Cornwallis last week. I was there to conduct a safety check on
some cadet rented vessels and got a chance to have a quick look around the
former recruit/naval communications training base.
The Drill hall is filled with concrete products (it is a factory for Shaw
Brick).
The Cadets are using about twenty of the barracks which are pretty much as
they were with recruits in them. The old Curling rink is now their boat
shed.
Various company offices occupy the base admin offices.
A fibreglass company apparently produces hundreds of ambulance caps per
month in the old base transport building (he bought it for 20,000).
He also builds some very nice looking boats, and uses a dozen other
buildings on the site that he apparently picked up for a few hundred
dollars.
The Peacekeeping centre is on a summer slow down, but they are using the
Recruit HQ building and the wardroom, along with a few other structures
around the place. They filled in the wardroom pool to put in a new patio.
The Fitness centre burned down a few years ago.
The PMQ's which were sold at a rock bottom price are all inhabited and have
been personalized by their new owners quite nicely.
The whole area seems to be doing very well (much better than when I was
there teaching in 94). New malls and businesses are cropping up, the
streets are cleaners, people in the streets seem less hostile, and tourists
are everywhere.
Club 98 is still reputed to be a major dump but the "Hollow Spot" restaurant
was packed everytime we passed it.
There will be 800 cadets using the old base by next week.
Sparky
Paul Charland
I have an aerial view of Cornwallis taken about three years ago if you would
like me to post it here. I'm asking as I know this is a discussion group, but
then, you could discuss the picture!
Paul
Gary
"Sparky" <Rad...@spam.aircooled.net> wrote
> Hey Folks;
>
> The 'basic training' thread got me thinking about my trip to the
former
> HMCS/CFB Cornwallis last week.
How'd it feel to go back there and look around?
I took a drive through myself around 1997-ish. It was sorta eerie to be
cruising the hallowed streets in the comfort of my Pathfinder, vice
running them at quadruple-double time, with the DS's cadence
interspersed with all manner of invective meant to describe what would
happen to us if we didn't get "there" (wherever "there" was) in time....
It was a very strange feeling indeed.
Cheers!
Gary
Alison Davies
gone?
PETE
Gary wrote in message <9zM95.6521$k5.7...@news1.rdc1.mb.home.com>...
Gord Beaman
--cut--
>> HMCS/CFB Cornwallis last week.
>
>How'd it feel to go back there and look around?
>
>I took a drive through myself around 1997-ish. It was sorta eerie to be
>cruising the hallowed streets in the comfort of my Pathfinder, vice
>running them at quadruple-double time, with the DS's cadence
>interspersed with all manner of invective meant to describe what would
>happen to us if we didn't get "there" (wherever "there" was) in time....
>
>It was a very strange feeling indeed.
>
>Cheers!
>
>Gary
>
>
You know, it's very odd, all this talk of 'derring-do' and 'sock
it to the recruits' that you folks relate. It surely musta been
a different time and a different place 'way back'.
There was none of this stuff when I went through in the early
fifties. May 1951 to be exact, I signed up in Moncton NB, was
sent by train to St Jean, Que.. We were there for four weeks
where we were taught some rifle drill, how to make 'hospital
corners' on our beds by the instructors (and how to 'french' a
bed by the odd bad cat).
We took some tests to determine our 'occupational talents' and
with the results of these tests we picked out our future trades.
We had lots of time off and could go into town after the first
week.
Nobody had to run anywhere, nobody was forced to do x number of
pushups nor to run around the parade square as 'punishment'. If
someone needed punishment then the Sgt/WO raked him over the
coals, if that didn't work the first time then he was presented
with a ticket home.
We lost almost nobody in basic. The embarrassment of 'frigging
up' was so severe that anyone worth his salt didn't frig up
twice.
I gotta think that it's one of two things. Either they made
people differently then (nah) or this present approach is wrong,
Why else do they lose so many in boot camp?. Why is it helpful
to insult intelligent human beings and try to make them think
that they're worthless?...these U.S. boot camp tactics do not
impress me a bunch. It would seem to me that it's better to
assess the persons capabilities with intelligent tests and exams
rather than to actually stress him to near the breaking point to
see his reaction.
They certainly didn't do it when I went through and a lot of us
made it past twenty - twenty five years of service.
--
Gord Beaman
PEI Canada.
Gary
"Gord Beaman" <gbe...@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote
<snip>
> They certainly didn't do it when I went through and a lot of us
> made it past twenty - twenty five years of service.
I Dunno, Gord. As Graeme said, basic of today is nothing like that in
the 70s & 80s, which was, I imagine, nothing like that in the 50s/60s. I
can only guess that recruit training, like all things, is cyclical in
nature. In 1982, although almost certainly officially frowned upon,
disgusting verbal abuse was a common disciplinary tool, as was forcing
someone to cause themselves pain through extended pushups or holding
one's feet off the ground, etc. Now you don't even have to iron uniforms
every day, nor spend hours on your footwear: combats are dress of the
day.... Sheesh!
My basic was basically <grin> 3 months of screaming & yelling, pain &
fear, and sweat & tears. And I'm sure I'm not telling it bigger than it
is :) I can't imagine what would happen today if a DS threatened a
recruit (and this was a VERY common threat to members of my platoon)
that the DS was going to "suck out his eyes and skull-fuck him to
death." (No kidding.) (Another favorite was "Do you want to die, pork
chop? Do you? 'Cuz I'm going to fucking KILL you!") Needless to say, we
almost believed them at the time. heh heh
One DS, a Master Bombardier, *did* go to far, and was removed from the
platoon staff (his section completed basic with a "guest DS"), but only
after it got physical: he "tapped" a recruit in the berries with his
pace stick while the hapless kid was standing at attention, and probably
wishing he was dead. I had a Sgt. step on my back once while doing
pushups in the mud (I wasn't going down far enough to get dirty, so he
helped me) and spent the day with a boot-print on the back of my shirt.
We all thought it was funny. Today, that would earn the Sgt. a one-way
ticked to "Club Edmonton."
In short, during my stay in Cornwallis, it seemed that anything short of
actual physical abuse was fair ball. (But it was OK to force a recruit
to "hurt" himself....) I have no idea if such abuse was worthwhile, but
I do know that I left there feeling that I could accomplish ANYTHING,
and that any limitations on my ability were strictly self-imposed. I
also know that I NEVER would have accomplished half of the things I did
without the DS right there, foaming at the mouth, and threatening to
suck out my eyes and, well, you know....
I don't know for sure if all recruit training was that bad, or if such
harshness was reserved for the combat arms guys who were going on to
battle school, but I suspect that air force and navy platoons *may* have
been a tad less intimidating. Incidentally, we were one of the last, if
not *the* last, combat arms platoons; shortly after my course, hard Army
types went directly to battle school, bypassing CFRS.
My platoon sergeant (now a WO) from those days is here with 2PPCLI. I'm
tempted to go see him and see how he's doing after all these years :)
Cheers!
Gary (maybe *that's* why I have a hard time being politically correct!)
Jack
part, run by Combat arms as was the case in Cornwallis...!!
"Gord Beaman" <gbe...@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3967a61f...@news1.pei.sympatico.ca...
> They certainly didn't do it when I went through and a lot of us
> made it past twenty - twenty five years of service.
>
Gunner
it was because most of them had been in WWII and they did not need to
scream and yell to make their point. As a recruit, I would imagine that
you acknowledged they were the expert because the had actually "done"
it.
Fast forward to the 70s and 80s and all of a sudden you have a group of
instructors with no "experience" at war, merely, verterans of field
exercises. While you as a recruit may respect the instructor you are
more willing to say "why"? Ergo, the instructor uses yelling, physical
violence, etc to deal with someone they don't feel has the right
attitude.
Fast forward again to the late 90s and the instructors (especially army)
now have an incredible amount of experience from Cyprus (don't laugh),
Croatia, Bosnia, Rwanda, Somalia, East Timour, Kosovo...much different
mindset.
Just my ramblings waiting for Stockwell Day to get the nomination for
leader of the Canadian Alliance!
Gerry
went through in the late summer/early fall of '72 (7235). My first encounter
with the Platoon Sgt was at 0230 in a hangar in Greenwood. I considered him
the gnarliest, most foul-mouthed life-form I had ever encountered. Surely
this bastard wasn't married and if he owned dogs, they had run away. It
wasn't until I had the pleasure of making coffee for the Staff one morning
that I realized he was like any one else. Pleasant, talkative, and
interested in how I was doing on the course.
Those were the days of the five mile run in combats with rifle, full
canteen, etc. I still don't miss Heartbreak Hill or the inevitable runs
through the sand.
Gerry
Sparky
It was interesting to revisit. As I was there when it closed, we were
hearing all about how the towns in the area would die, and wondered if the
place would become a ghost town.
The group I was with had one member from a graduating class in '70 who
recollected the terrors he endured - and about a rule that if you went to
play golf on one of the weekends off, you could wear civies to the golf
course. So they went and played golf for two whole days (and nights).
Another couldn't stop recollecting how often his bunk, locker and its
contents ended up on the grass between the H-hut in '79...
I was glad to see the place was still so intact. I fully intend to go back
when not on business, and visit the museum.
Sparky
"Gary" <ada...@nospam.home.com> wrote in message
news:9zM95.6521$k5.7...@news1.rdc1.mb.home.com...
>
> "Sparky" <Rad...@spam.aircooled.net> wrote
>
> > Hey Folks;
> >
> > The 'basic training' thread got me thinking about my trip to the
> former
Andrew Chaplin
"Alison Davies" <adav...@home.com> wrote in message
news:X3N95.62680$ef6.7...@news1.rdc1.ab.home.com...
| I Remember it well, went through basic there in 1975. Where has the time
| gone?
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
S.B. Williams
alive at Cornwallis (at least a couple of months a year....)
Pat Lon
bigger courses of females in a long time apparently. I think we were all Admin and Supply. We only
lost 3 prior to graduation. I often wonder how many are still in, if any. 26 years....most would
probably be retired by now. I've run into fellow recruits at different times in my career....on
courses and postings, would be interesting to find out where a lot of them are now. And as you
said, it took us a while to realize our instructors really were human. I retired in 1995, one of
those terms of service based on age/rank and not specifically on years in.
I also did a tour in Cornwallis 1984 - 1988, base side, not School.
Coincidently my husband was in my brother platoon. Never knew him then though, because I was from
Dartmouth, so weekends off were spent there, and since a few of us were older than the average
recruit, we would all go to Halifax together. Didn't want to hang around Cornwallis with 17 and 18
year old kids! Took me 18 years to finally hook up with him, sitting talking over coffee one night
when we realized that we had been to Cornwallis at the same time, he knew girls in my platoon, I
knew guys in his, but we didn't know one another then...even signed on the dotted line on the same
day...he in Ottawa, me in Halifax!
David Oakes
> I don't know for sure if all recruit training was that bad, or if
> such harshness was reserved for the combat arms guys who were going
> on to battle school, but I suspect that air force and navy platoons
> *may* have been a tad less intimidating. Incidentally, we were one
> of the last, if not *the* last, combat arms platoons; shortly after
> my course, hard Army types went directly to battle school, bypassing
> CFRS.
When I went through the next year, the Navy and Air Force instructors
tried being intimidating, but after seeing the Army instructors
tearing strips off their own platoons, they just didn't seem all that
intimidating, to me at least. Mine was a Navy platoon, the
instructors really tried to be nasty, it just wasn't in their nature
though.
Nope, there were a few more combat arms platoons after that, I know
for sure that there was one three or four weeks ahead of my course,
8319. As well, I'm pretty sure that there was another one about five
weeks behind us.
--
------->>>>>>>>Remove the *.obvious.* to reply<<<<<<<<-----
David Oakes | /// Member: | mailto:doa...@accesswave.ca
Dartmouth NS | \\\/// Team |
Canada | \XX/ AMIGA | ICQ #14502477
--
Arkansas supported Clinton to get him out of Arkansas!
-*- ASTG 1.9
Graeme
to mention that restoring the armed forces as an Alliance priority.
Cheers
GD
Graeme
>actual physical abuse was fair ball. (But it was OK to force a recruit
>to "hurt" himself....) I have no idea if such abuse was worthwhile, but
>I do know that I left there feeling that I could accomplish ANYTHING,
>and that any limitations on my ability were strictly self-imposed.
Gary,
I felt the same way after doing phase 2 at CTC. We were run ragged that
summer. I did the final FTX with a dislocated shoulder and a medical RTU
chit stuffed in my pocket (caught a charge for that after, but at least I
didn't have to do the course over!) A lot of what went on was not what one
would call good instructional technique, but it did make me "tougher" I
guess. To this day, when things go for a shit (be it in the office, on FTX,
or in BiH) I have always thought "This is not as bad as phase 2" :-)
I wonder if the approach I'm taking with this course will end up hurting
these guys later on. I wonder if they will be able to draw upon any harsh
experience to assist them in confronting a stressful situation in the
future.
Cheers
Graeme
Cloud Dreamer
.
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Gunner
Was he a evil human being, of course he was. The sad fact is the
leaders of the left (Communists in China and Soviet Union) have killed,
displaced, and condemned ten times as many as the right. Yet, you never
hear anyone demonizing the leader of the NDP.
Nope, I think Stockwell Day will be good for Canada. If nothing else it
will shift the countries policies farther to the right and hopefully get
us away from the special interest dominated policies of the Liberals.
No more lesbian porn flicks (not necessarily a good thing...;). No more
taxpayer funded slush funds for liberal MPs. And maybe, just maybe, a
little extra money for the Armed Forces. Mind you the thought of Art
Hanger as the Defence Minister does give me the willies.
I guess this isn't the right forum for a political discussion, however,
i've added the Canadian Alliance defence policy if you are interested in
reading it:
Gord Beaman
--cut--
>
>I wonder if the approach I'm taking with this course will end up hurting
>these guys later on. I wonder if they will be able to draw upon any harsh
>experience to assist them in confronting a stressful situation in the
>future.
>
>Cheers
>Graeme
>
>
on the floor because it feels so good when you stop'?.
I never have and likely never will see the value in the U.S.
method of recruit 'instruction'...it just makes no sense to me
at all. It really makes a pisspot full of sense to humiliate a
person and make him think that he's worthless to make him a
better soldier.
Seems like it would make more sense to fill his head with
valuable lessons in soldering skills then test him against his
peers until he can occasionally compete favourably with the
instructors. Seems to me that he'd then, out of pride, retain
the lessons learned better than those learned out of stress,
fear and intimidation.
But then, what do I know?...I was never shouted at when I made
an error on the parade square in St Jean Que., mind you, I
retired 26 years later as a WO instructor in the highest pay
field possible so maybe all this intimidation crap isn't
necessary after all?.
Neill McKay
> I never have and likely never will see the value in the U.S.
> method of recruit 'instruction'...it just makes no sense to me
> at all. It really makes a pisspot full of sense to humiliate a
> person and make him think that he's worthless to make him a
> better soldier.
Has anyone experienced one of the British recruit courses? I'd be
interested in hearing how they compare to ours.
Neill McKay
--
Neill McKay, BScE, EIT, ASCSCE
Saint John, New Brunswick, Canada
Cloud Dreamer
of all of them in one way or another.
The reform party has given me the shivers from the day it was
created and changing its name and leader will do nothing to shed
its "redneck reputation" - certainly not in time for the next
election or two. (Didn't this change get them access to pensions
that they swore they'd never take part in??)
Let's see them in provincial politics before we hand the country
over to them. I'd like to see what they do to B.C. or Manitoba
first. (why does the word 'sacrifice' suddenly come to mind :)
Besides, their promises for money for the armed forces sounds
alot like a promise made to save money by cancelling an order for
helicopters.
.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Sparky
news:0m_95.3310$_J1....@newscontent-01.sprint.ca...
> I found it interesting that in his short thank-you speech, he found the
time
> to mention that restoring the armed forces as an Alliance priority.
>
> Cheers
> GD
Every senior politician I have heard over my lifetime has said that. None
have restored the CF yet, and I can't see this bunch of yahoo's achieving it
either.
You can't provide piles of money to the CF while cutting everyone's taxes,
increasing health care funding, and providing cash to all farmers,
fishermen, and every other 'grassroots' organization that call for it...
My politically cynical mind suspects that he is plugging money for the CF
because the Sea King situation is something they will concentrate on when
bashing the current govt. The bashing on this subject is well deserved, but
I don't think they will doing it for any other reason than vote grabbing.
But that's politics for you...
Sparky
Sparky
"Gunner" <ran...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3968AD16...@home.com...
> Why is it that leaders on the right are always referred to as Hitler.
> Was he a evil human being, of course he was. The sad fact is the
> leaders of the left (Communists in China and Soviet Union) have killed,
> displaced, and condemned ten times as many as the right. Yet, you never
> hear anyone demonizing the leader of the NDP.
>
Where do you get your stats for this statement?
Hitler is only one of several right wing leaders who were responsible for
massacres during this century. Have you considered the violence in Central
America, or the regimes in Chile, Argentina, Columbia - violence and
repression against blacks in South Africa, the actions of the Suharto
regime in Indonesia? Isn't Hussein's Iraq right wing? Khomeni's Iran?
(list goes on...)
I think that if the stats were available, it would be a clear tie between
the extreme right wingers and the extreme left wingers.
If you look at Canadian politicians and compare their policies, few are even
in the range of being extremists. The NDP enrage people in the centre and
right because of their often expensive and illogical humanist and union
ideology. Reform (CRAP) frighten people on the centre and left because of
their often illogical fiscal policies and the less than open minded
statements of several of their supporters toward minorities and rights.
Of course few admit to liking the Conservatives because of Mulroney, and few
admit to liking the Liberals because of Chretien.
So why haven't Rhino cleaned up yet?
Sparky
Sparky
"Gerry" <geb...@sprint.ca> wrote in message
news:j5R95.3132$_J1....@newscontent-01.sprint.ca...
> Those were the days of the five mile run in combats with rifle, full
> canteen, etc. I still don't miss Heartbreak Hill or the inevitable runs
> through the sand.
>
> Gerry
As I discovered to my horror after completing the Recruit Instructor course,
the 5 mile run (to Joggin's Bridge) was actually in excess of 7 miles, and
the 9 mile march (along the power grid up Heartbreak Hill and down to the
obstacle course) was in fact over 13 miles.
Truely evil - but I did both routes three times each. The last time
escorting the stragglers - which added a lot of distance as I would run
ahead to get them to follow, and then have to run back to re-motivate the
worst cases...
Sparky
Gerry
Sparky <Rad...@spam.aircooled.net> wrote in message
news:nd5a5.68$JT2....@sapphire.mtt.net...
Gerry
Jack
politics (BC e.g.), the NDP..Canada needs a big change...and more than just
from Lib to Pc and back again every 4 to 8 years!!!
"Cloud Dreamer" <clouddream...@excite.ca.invalid> wrote in message
news:017763d8...@usw-ex0105-036.remarq.com...
> Left, right, up or down - makes no difference. Canada needs abit
> of all of them in one way or another.
>
> The reform party has given me the shivers from the day it was
> created and changing its name and leader will do nothing to shed
> its "redneck reputation" - certainly not in time for the next
> election or two. (Didn't this change get them access to pensions
> that they swore they'd never take part in??)
>
> Let's see them in provincial politics before we hand the country
> over to them. I'd like to see what they do to B.C. or Manitoba
> first. (why does the word 'sacrifice' suddenly come to mind :)
>
> Besides, their promises for money for the armed forces sounds
> alot like a promise made to save money by cancelling an order for
> helicopters.
>
> .
>
>
> Gunner <ran...@home.com> wrote:
> >Why is it that leaders on the right are always referred to as
> Hitler.
> >Was he a evil human being, of course he was. The sad fact is
> the
> >leaders of the left (Communists in China and Soviet Union) have
> killed,
> >displaced, and condemned ten times as many as the right. Yet,
> you never
> >hear anyone demonizing the leader of the NDP.
> >
Jack
"Sparky wrote:" >
> You can't provide piles of money to the CF while cutting everyone's taxes,
> increasing health care funding, and providing cash to all farmers,
> fishermen, and every other 'grassroots' organization that call for it...
Wouldn't the 1 billion $$$ or so pissed away in the HRDC job fund which went
to Liberal strongholds been welcomed and better utilized in the CF??
Gunner
Sparky, come on in out of the socialist propaganda you grew up with...
Stalin and his 5 year plans, collectivization of agriculture, purges in
the communist party, military and general populance, forced starvation
of Ukraine, gulags, stop me when I get to 50 Million people.
Mao Zedong...Great Leap Forward, Cultural Revolution...stop me when I
get to 50 Million people.
Pol Pot...the great citizen number one...one million people killed and
an ancient society destroyed.
Kim Il Jong...millions died and dying in North Korea.
Romania, Albania...how far do you want me to go.
> I think that if the stats were available, it would be a clear tie between the extreme right wingers and the extreme left wingers.
I'll agree with you that any type of extremists is bad for the
populance. However my point was the Canadian Alliance is not an
extremist party.
> If you look at Canadian politicians and compare their policies, few are even
> in the range of being extremists.
True
The NDP enrage people in the centre and right because of their often
expensive and illogical humanist and union ideology.
Very true.
Reform (CRAP) frighten people on the centre and left because of
> their often illogical fiscal policies and the less than open minded
> statements of several of their supporters toward minorities and rights.
Very untrue...there is nothing illogical about the CAs fiscal
policies...tax cuts, debt reduction, balanced budgets (ohh, really
radical!). Special interest groups don't like the CA because the CA
believes that everyone is equal under the law and there are no reasons
to have quotas and artificial barriers enforced on everyone...white
christian man need not apply (no discrimination there is there?).
> Of course few admit to liking the Conservatives because of Mulroney, and few
> admit to liking the Liberals because of Chretien.
I liked Mulroney and the current economic prosperity we currently enjoy
is due to a large part in his (and the Conservative Parties) policies.
I don't support the conservatives now because they have never been
reenergized since losing power. Joe Clark is a smart decent man,
however, he is a loser...always has been and is from another era!
Stockwell Day and the CA will do alot of good things for Canada, even,
if they are not elected in the next general election they will force the
liberals to give us back out tax dollars at a greater rate then Paul
Martin is doing now.
Gunner
> have restored the CF yet, and I can't see this bunch of yahoo's achieving it
> either.
Agreed...all governments (liberal and conservative) have NOT been kind
to the CF.
> You can't provide piles of money to the CF while cutting everyone's taxes,
> increasing health care funding, and providing cash to all farmers,
> fishermen, and every other 'grassroots' organization that call for it...
Not true at all. Its a matter of priorities within the government. Is
it to fund lesbian and prostitute movies, provide corporate welfare to
large international corporations, fishy job grants and election slush
funds etc, etc, or is it to tax a population at a level that does not
take away 50cents on the dollar for each one earned.
> My politically cynical mind suspects that he is plugging money for the CF
> because the Sea King situation is something they will concentrate on when
> bashing the current govt. The bashing on this subject is well deserved, but
> I don't think they will doing it for any other reason than vote grabbing.
Agreed that the military is simply a political tool now, however, if you
read the CAs defence position, it is not "pie in the sky" promises,
rather, it simply moves it in the right directions.
Gunner
Canadians, what better way then to use the $1 Billion taxpayer funded
Liberal Slush Fund and provide extra soldiers, sailors and aircrew for
the CF. IMNSHO you would have a much better quality of Canadian if a
few more civvies had some military training.
Doesn't it make you mad that we spend more keeping a criminal in his
Club Med surroundings then we do on a soldier in the CF who has to live
in a run down PMQ? Oh yes, he has to deliver pizzas in order to feed
his family because his taxes are so high to keep the murders and rapists
in their comfortable surroundings with three squares a day. Am I wrong
to be upset? I don't think so.
Jack wrote:
>
> "Sparky wrote:" >
> > You can't provide piles of money to the CF while cutting everyone's taxes,
> > increasing health care funding, and providing cash to all farmers,
> > fishermen, and every other 'grassroots' organization that call for it...
>
Andrew Chaplin
|
| Agreed that the military is simply a political tool now, however, if you
| read the CAs defence position, it is not "pie in the sky" promises,
| rather, it simply moves it in the right directions.
Or is that the 'Right' directions? ;-)
Sparky
> > Where do you get your stats for this statement?
> Sparky, come on in out of the socialist >propaganda you grew up with...
And you Gunner, come on in out of the US Cold War propaganda you grew up
with....
You completely ignored the examples I gave you- most of which were supported
by the US at one time or another. Add those examples to Hitler's and
Musselini's butchery and you have some pretty startling statistics.
I have never denied or played down the massacres of the left.., but the
massacres of the extreme right are also very well documented. The numbers
are often less clear because the US State Department (during the propaganda
wars) were quick to put a firm number to the amount of people killed by the
East, while often denying the existance of massacres in countries supported
by the west. That was part of the cold war game - and as sad as it is, it
was probably necessary at the time.
> Reform (CRAP) frighten people on the centre and left because of
> > their often illogical fiscal policies and the less than open minded
> > statements of several of their supporters toward minorities and rights.
>
> Very untrue...there is nothing illogical about the CAs fiscal
> policies...tax cuts, debt reduction, balanced budgets (ohh, really
> radical!).
Funny - when you put it in those terms, they are exactly the same as the
current Liberal Policies...
What is radical and illogical about CA's proposals is when the numbers don't
add up. The idea is all well and good, but their means to the end -which
could damage some of the good things about Canada (medical, education, etc)
is what doesn't add up in my mind. In any case, I'm not going to buy into
their platform any more than I buy into the platforms of the NDP, PC,
Liberals, etc. If you want to then fine- but don't go blaming my sceptisim
on Socialist Propaganda. Its insulting - and it makes you out to be nothing
more than a propagandist for the CA.
>Special interest groups don't like the CA because the CA
> believes that everyone is equal under the law and there are no reasons
> to have quotas and artificial barriers enforced on everyone...white
> christian man need not apply (no discrimination there is there?).
If you believe that the CA is not already pandering to 'different' special
interest groups then you are fooling yourself. All that will happen under
their gov't is a change of priorities of special treatment.
You will see grants to christian youth crusades rather than to Katimavik,
Grants to "REAL women" rather than to NAC (IMO neither should be funded),
etc
> > Of course few admit to liking the Conservatives because of Mulroney, and
few
> > admit to liking the Liberals because of Chretien.
> I liked Mulroney and the current economic prosperity we currently enjoy
> is due to a large part in his (and the Conservative Parties) policies.
> I don't support the conservatives now because they have never been
> reenergized since losing power. Joe Clark is a smart decent man,
> however, he is a loser...always has been and is from another era!
I know we had this discussion before, but I will stand by my feeling that
Mulroney was a traitor. Too many of his MP's were corrupt - and the current
economic prosperity has more to do with world economics than anything his
group did that was positive or negative.
How many PM's left Canada within a year of leaving office. I can only think
of three; Mulroney and Campbell were two of them.
The fact that the PC's left Clark so quickly tells another story. I agree
that he is a smart and decent man - but he was made into a loser by a bunch
of Tory's that were neither smart nor decent. Had Mulroney not soured the
party's population, Clark would be a strong leader for a hopeful party.
> Stockwell Day and the CA will do alot of good things for Canada, even,
> if they are not elected in the next general election they will force the
> liberals to give us back out tax dollars at a greater rate then Paul
Martin is doing now.
If they manage that, I will be pleasantly surprised. But they are going to
have to change some of their stripes, and bury some of their backgrounds
better if they want my support.
Military Content: Curious, how many MPs from CA have military
backgrounds/experience?
I know Mifflin and Romkey did for the Liberals, and there were two or so in
Mulroney's cabinet....
Sparky
Gunner
> by the US at one time or another. Add those examples to Hitler's and
> Musselini's butchery and you have some pretty startling statistics.
I don't disagree with you what right wing leaders have done. My point
was that left wing extremists have done as much and more in the name of
the "people", but, it is only the right wingers that are villified by
opposition politicians and the media.
> > Very untrue...there is nothing illogical about the CAs fiscal
> > policies...tax cuts, debt reduction, balanced budgets (ohh, really
> > radical!).
>
> Funny - when you put it in those terms, they are exactly the same as the
> current Liberal Policies...
The only reasons the liberals are moving toward Reform (now CA) policies
is because the Canadain people are becoming fed up with the amount of
taxes we pay and what the money goes for (the government waste is
incredible).
> What is radical and illogical about CA's proposals is when the numbers don't
> add up. The idea is all well and good, but their means to the end -which
> could damage some of the good things about Canada (medical, education, etc)
> is what doesn't add up in my mind.
If you remove the chaff from government spending, you will find that
there is money and more to do everthing. It's a matter of priorities
within the government...DND has the same problem as government, the
money is there, but it is not always used properly.
> If you believe that the CA is not already pandering to 'different' special
> interest groups then you are fooling yourself. All that will happen under
> their gov't is a change of priorities of special treatment.
> You will see grants to christian youth crusades rather than to Katimavik,
> Grants to "REAL women" rather than to NAC (IMO neither should be funded),
Good points, however, the CA has always maintained that special interest
groups should not be funded by government. Why aren't groups like
"REAL" Women not funded to the same extent as the NAC? REAL women
probably speak for more women in Canada then the feminist/lesbian run
NAC.
> I know we had this discussion before, but I will stand by my feeling that
> Mulroney was a traitor. Too many of his MP's were corrupt - and the current
> economic prosperity has more to do with world economics than anything his
> group did that was positive or negative. How many PM's left Canada within a year of leaving office. I can only think of three; Mulroney and Campbell were two of them.
How was Mulroney a traitor? As far as I know Mulroney lives in Montreal
right now. Kim Campbell, lives in Las Angles as the Canadian Consul.
Creten gave her the job because he didn't want a former Prime Minister
to be collecting welfare.
> The fact that the PC's left Clark so quickly tells another story. I agree
> that he is a smart and decent man - but he was made into a loser by a bunch
> of Tory's that were neither smart nor decent. Had Mulroney not soured the
> party's population, Clark would be a strong leader for a hopeful party.
I would rather vote for Clark's daughter then I would for Clark. The
Tories "Day" has come and it is simply hurting Canadians by splitting
the "right" vote. He should move to join the CA.
> Military Content: Curious, how many MPs from CA have military
> backgrounds/experience?
Don't know. You can view the CAs biographies at www.canadianalliance.ca
Sparky, I think in the end we agree on many things. Extremists are bad,
whatever their stripe. Politicians will do whatever it takes to get
elected. Politicians will woo special interest groups for their
support. The upcoming election will be about two main themes: the
Cretien way of bumbling along trying to do a little bit for everyone; or
the Day way of moving forward in a new direction (right or wrong).
Cheers!
Gunner
Dan
Roger Wiertz
Gord Beaman wrote:
> You know, it's very odd, all this talk of 'derring-do' and 'sock
> it to the recruits' that you folks relate. It surely musta been
> a different time and a different place 'way back'.
>
> There was none of this stuff when I went through in the early
> fifties. May 1951 to be exact, I signed up in Moncton NB, was
> sent by train to St Jean, Que.. We were there for four weeks
> where we were taught some rifle drill, how to make 'hospital
> corners' on our beds by the instructors (and how to 'french' a
> bed by the odd bad cat).
>
> We took some tests to determine our 'occupational talents' and
> with the results of these tests we picked out our future trades.
> We had lots of time off and could go into town after the first
> week.
>
> Nobody had to run anywhere, nobody was forced to do x number of
> pushups nor to run around the parade square as 'punishment'. If
> someone needed punishment then the Sgt/WO raked him over the
> coals, if that didn't work the first time then he was presented
> with a ticket home.
>
> We lost almost nobody in basic. The embarrassment of 'frigging
> up' was so severe that anyone worth his salt didn't frig up
> twice.
>
> I gotta think that it's one of two things. Either they made
> people differently then (nah) or this present approach is wrong,
> Why else do they lose so many in boot camp?. Why is it helpful
> to insult intelligent human beings and try to make them think
> that they're worthless?...these U.S. boot camp tactics do not
> impress me a bunch. It would seem to me that it's better to
> assess the persons capabilities with intelligent tests and exams
> rather than to actually stress him to near the breaking point to
> see his reaction.
>
> They certainly didn't do it when I went through and a lot of us
> made it past twenty - twenty five years of service.
>
> --
> Gord Beaman
> PEI Canada.
An interesting perspective, Gord.
I went through basic in the early 80's, and even then, folks who
went through in the 70's were appalled at how easy we had had it.
I wonder where/when the change from what you describe occurred,
as well as the why of it.
I have a theory. In the early 50's, recruits had personal experience
of living in wartime. While these fine young Canadians had not seen
warfare on their own soil, they certainly had considerable contact
with returned war vets, and many would have been personally familiar
with a relative who was lost in combat.
These recruits would have had a perspective vastly different from
recruits in later decades. Recruits of your era would have been
exceedingly familiar with the concept of duty to country, and also
with the concept of what we now call "unlimited liability".
By contrast, a significant proportion of the recruits of my era joined
the service because they needed employment. The CF offered trades
training which they saw as being valuable in the effort to gain civilian
employment after their minimum contract was completed. For those
from areas where unemployment was high, the opportunity to get paid
while receiving training and gaining experience, (rather than paying for
training and entering the job market without experience), was the most
significant factor leading to their enrolment.
Your generation enrolled after seeing their fathers, uncles, and older
brothers serve in a horrific conflict, in which many of them died defending
the principles of our society.
My generation enrolled after seeing the queue at the unemployment office.
(FLAMEGUARD: of course this is a generalization - and like all such,
does not apply to all who enrolled during this time. It did, however,
apply to a significant number of those that I personally encountered
during my early years in the service).
Perhaps a "tougher" basic was required to determine which recruits were
really well-motivated enough. Those who saw their service through a lens
of duty would likely be more inclined to tough it out than those whose
service was seen in terms of simple employment. Expressed another way,
there is only so much shit a person will take in order to get a job (even a
good one), whereas the tolerance level is probably a lot higher for one who
regards it as their duty to take whatever comes at them and deal with it.
I'd be interested in knowing when the transition happened that resulted
in the change of methods in basic training. Was it possibly a generational
thing, as theorized above, or is this a case of comparing apples and
oranges (a pre-unification Air Force basic with a post-unification CF basic
which would have carried more influence from land combat training tactics)?
I'd like to hear your thoughts on this Gord, along with those of anyone
else who might educate me.
Best Regards
Roger Wiertz
SPAMBLOCK ALERT: Remove THIS from the addy to reply by email
Paul Charland
I think parts of this are true. I was on course 8012, the last trades course
through Cornwallis before five straight years of combat arms. I got in at the
time for one reason, firefighting. Unlike the States, you just can't get this
training through a college. My family was military, 53 years total regular
forces service for my immediate family, so the Forces was a natural choice, so
I thought! I was in Air Cadets and Militia for a few years before signing up
and thought that I was going to have a fairly good chance at a career with the
forces. Wrong!
The Sergeant who was assigned to our floor was a young Navy Bosun who "hadn't
been to sea" in over five years, although he did take the ferry to Saint John
and back the summer before. He had just spent the previous five years as an
admin clerk in Greenwood and let us all know early on that he was pissed right
off for the transfer to Cornwallis. There was a second thing happening o the
16 guys on the course that had signed up for firefighting, combat arms. At the
time, and maybe still today, anyone who did two years in combat arms had a
choice of what they wanted to remuster to, and the trades of choice were
firefighters and meat heads. So, one by one, as combat arms people remustered
to firefighter, we were picked off. Some took combat arms, and when my number
came up, I took a walk. Out of 16 firefighters on my course, only three
graduated, and they were not sent to Borden for training, they became general
duties across the country.
I guess the point I'm trying to agree with here is, I joined the Forces, not so
much as to "defend" Canada, rather to get proper training, and after five
years, I may have stayed in or had the option of marketing my skills on the
street somewhere. As it turned out, i served my community for a number of
years as a firefighter, and probably fought more fires here than any DND
firefighter did in his whole career.
I think that the entire recruit training system started going down after
unification. I do know that on my floor, the ones going in for Navy
possessions had less of a hassle than anyone else. When my father was taking
his WO 1 course in Chillawack, the first day the Navy instructor told the Navy
guys at the start of the first class that they had already passed. Not picking
on Navy guys here, just the examples that I know of.
I think the forces would be far better off if they would take a serious look at
the people they pick as instructors for basic training. A lot of good people
bit the dust on my course, mostly for some of the stupidest reason, "You're
gone, I don't have to look up to cock suckers like you", and so it was, the
tall guy was going one week later, there was nothing wrong with the guy.
Paul
Rick Collins
> What is radical and illogical about CA's proposals is when the
numbers don't
> add up. The idea is all well and good, but their means to the
end -which
> could damage some of the good things about Canada (medical,
education, etc)
> is what doesn't add up in my mind.
That would suggest you believe tax money colected now (the money that
pays for medical care, etc) is spent carefully and wisely. The
Alliance position is that is not so - a lot of collected tax money is
wasted and squandered. In that light, you can reduce taxes and still
provide the services the people want. You collect less money, but you
spend it more wisely.
> If you believe that the CA is not already pandering to 'different'
special
> interest groups then you are fooling yourself. All that will happen
under
> their gov't is a change of priorities of special treatment.
>
> You will see grants to christian youth crusades rather than to
Katimavik,
>
> Grants to "REAL women" rather than to NAC (IMO neither should be
funded),
I doubt it. The Alliance is right-wing, and that means conservative
fiscal policies. I doubt they would fund either group: a right-wing
party doesn't believe in funding outsiders.
> If they manage that, I will be pleasantly surprised. But they are
going to
> have to change some of their stripes, and bury some of their
backgrounds
> better if they want my support.
Chretien's position (as a Catholic) are identical to Day's on the
question of abortion. How come no-one seems to comment on that?
> Military Content: Curious, how many MPs from CA have military
> backgrounds/experience?
How many MPs from any party have military background/experience? Why
would they need it: that's why you have a professional military.
Neill McKay
>
> "Sparky" <Rad...@spam.aircooled.net> wrote in message
> news:kWka5.21$e65....@sapphire.mtt.net...
> > Military Content: Curious, how many MPs from CA have military
> > backgrounds/experience?
>
> How many MPs from any party have military background/experience? Why
> would they need it: that's why you have a professional military.
If more (or any) of them had military experience then they would
presumably have a much better understanding of the Forces than they
evidently do.
Jack
Those that can't do....teach!!
Rick Collins
"Neill McKay" <nmc...@nb.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:396A80A8...@nb.sympatico.ca...
> Rick Collins wrote:
> >
> > "Sparky" <Rad...@spam.aircooled.net> wrote in message
> > news:kWka5.21$e65....@sapphire.mtt.net...
>
> > > Military Content: Curious, how many MPs from CA have military
> > > backgrounds/experience?
> >
> > How many MPs from any party have military background/experience?
Why
> > would they need it: that's why you have a professional military.
>
> If more (or any) of them had military experience then they would
> presumably have a much better understanding of the Forces than they
> evidently do.
Perhaps. On the other hand, perhaps their understanding would be
flawed: coloured by the (necessarily) limited experience they had.
Perhaps they would be constantly fiddling and questioning based on
their limited understanding, second-guessing and deciding "what was
right" without regard for the advice they were getting.
Gary
"Roger Wiertz" <wie...@THISthezone.net> wrote
> I'd be interested in knowing when the transition happened that
resulted
> in the change of methods in basic training. Was it possibly a
generational
> thing, as theorized above, or is this a case of comparing apples and
> oranges (a pre-unification Air Force basic with a post-unification CF
basic
> which would have carried more influence from land combat training
tactics)?
This is exactly what I have been wondering: Is it a case of the RCAF
basic being less "pour on the stress in order to see who can't take it"
oriented? It seems to me that such an approach, although considered
valid for the air force, may not have been so for the army. As you
alluded, the "change" most probably occurred during unification, or
shortly thereafter.
We need a pre-unification army type's perspective on this one, methinks.
Cheers!
Gary
Gary
"Paul Charland" <p.ch...@sympatico.ca> wrote in
> I think parts of this are true. I was on course 8012, the last trades
course
> through Cornwallis before five straight years of combat arms.
Huh?
Cheers!
Gary
Gary
"Rick Collins" <ab...@debbs.ndhq.dnd.ca> wrote
> > Military Content: Curious, how many MPs from CA have military
> > backgrounds/experience?
>
> How many MPs from any party have military background/experience? Why
> would they need it: that's why you have a professional military.
Whatever happened to Mr Frazer? He was my Base Commander in Baden, left
for Africa after the accident, and the next time I saw the man he was
the Reform party defense critic.
Cheers!
Gary
Gord Beaman
--cut--
>
>I think the forces would be far better off if they would take a serious look at
>the people they pick as instructors for basic training. A lot of good people
>bit the dust on my course, mostly for some of the stupidest reason, "You're
>gone, I don't have to look up to cock suckers like you", and so it was, the
>tall guy was going one week later, there was nothing wrong with the guy.
>
>Paul
>
happen...that's exactly my point, big tough brainless louts
being put into positions of 'teaching' people to be soldiers,
ridiculous in the extreme. The US military method of 'training'.
Gunner
being reelected).
I thought he left to act as the national president of the taxpayers
federation or a group such as that.
Rick brings up a good point (yes, even once in awhile...;)...). Do you
really want someone who "knows the DND system" to be the Defence
Minister. I don't think believe you require it and DND might be better
off with the guy who doesn't know anything. What DND does need is a
politician who is capable of running a department like DND, and not just
any patronage appointment. I kinda like Doug Young when he was Defence
Minister...kinda a no nonesense type.
Sam
snipped
> any patronage appointment. I kinda like Doug Young when he was Defence
> Minister...kinda a no nonesense type.
>
Wasn't Doug Young the guy who killed the Airborne?
Sam
Gary
"Gunner" <ran...@home.com> wrote
> I kinda like Doug Young when he was Defence
> Minister...kinda a no nonesense type.
Wasn't Doug Young the minister when the carpet was pulled out from
underneath the Somalia Inquiry? You know, just before they got around to
talking about the real guilty parties.
"No nonesense" indeed....
Cheers!
Gary
Ken Bendelier
>Wasn't Doug Young the minister when the carpet was pulled out from
>underneath the Somalia Inquiry? You know, just before they got around to
>talking about the real guilty parties.
Matchee and Brown?
>
>"No nonesense" indeed....
>
>Cheers!
>
>Gary
Ken
>
>
It is the soldier, not the reporter
That gives us freedom of the press.
It is the soldier, not the poet
That gives us freedom of expression.
It is the soldier, not the campus organizer
That gives us the right to demonstrate.
It is the soldier, not the lawyer
That gives us the right to a fair trial.
It is the soldier who salutes the flag.
It is the soldier who serves under the flag.
It is the soldier who has the flag draped on his coffin
So that protestors may burn the flag.
- Province
Gord Beaman
>
>"Gunner" <ran...@home.com> wrote in message
>news:396B58B0...@home.com...
>snipped
>> any patronage appointment. I kinda like Doug Young when he was Defence
>> Minister...kinda a no nonesense type.
>>
>
>
>Wasn't Doug Young the guy who killed the Airborne?
>
>Sam
>
>
You think so?...to my way of thinking what killed the Airborne
was the WO/Sgts who allowed those cowboys to exist, imo they're
alone responsible for that whole sorry mess and should have been
prosecuted fully. They aren't just responsible for signing leave
passes and inspecting bedclothes for proper tightness and square
corners, they're alone responsible for the health of the Reg't
by quashing the kind of gangsters that were allowed to flourish
in that once proud honourable outfit. For shame!.
I'm almost ashamed of my rank when I think of what these poor
excuses for Sr NCOs allowed to happen. They had to be PC in this
modern world you say?...bullshit...if they couldn't have found
some way to turf these animals out onto civvy street where they
belonged while remaining visibly PC then they didn't deserve
their rank badges. Disgusting.
Neill McKay
>
> "Neill McKay" <nmc...@nb.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:396A80A8...@nb.sympatico.ca...
> > If more (or any) of them had military experience then they would
> > presumably have a much better understanding of the Forces than they
> > evidently do.
>
> Perhaps. On the other hand, perhaps their understanding would be
> flawed: coloured by the (necessarily) limited experience they had.
> Perhaps they would be constantly fiddling and questioning based on
> their limited understanding, second-guessing and deciding "what was
> right" without regard for the advice they were getting.
Sort of like Paul Hellyer, who served briefly in the RCAF, then was
irritated at not being able to transfer directly to the Army (and
evidently decided then and there to take revenge somehow, someday...).
You have a point.
Avril Schmidt
Avril
Gary
"Avril Schmidt" <warmf...@home.com> wrote
> Are we talking about the 1964 Bill C-90 Unification???
We're talking about the death of the Army, Navy and Air Force, and the
birth of the Canadian Armed (oops, strike that last) Forces, and how
this may relate to a seeming drastic change in basic training conduct
shortly thereafter.
You see, those of us who like to tell horror stories about basic are
seeking facts to support our tales. ;) heh heh heh
IMH, When *I* was young, O,
Cheers!
Gary
-----
"There are not enough Indians in the world to defeat the Seventh
Cavalry."
- George Armstrong Custer -
Gary
"Gord Beaman" <gbe...@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote
<snip>
> Disgusting.
But Gord, how do you really feel about it? <grin>
Cheers!
Gary
Gary
"Ken Bendelier" <kenn...@nb.sympatico.ca> wrote
> Matchee and Brown?
What was the Inquiry's mandate, oh humorous one?
Cheers!
Gary
Gunner
realized by all that nothing was going to come of it. Most of the main
players had been allowed to retire (rightly or wrongly) and all the
commission was doing was further destroying the morale of the CF. There
was nothing to gain at that point.
Gary wrote:
>
> "Gunner" <ran...@home.com> wrote
>
> > I kinda like Doug Young when he was Defence
> > Minister...kinda a no nonesense type.
>
> Wasn't Doug Young the minister when the carpet was pulled out from
> underneath the Somalia Inquiry? You know, just before they got around to
> talking about the real guilty parties.
>
Gunner
again. Politicians did not kill the Airborne Regiment, the chain of
command (MCpl on up) and the soldiers of the Airborne did it to
themselves.
Gord Beaman wrote:
>
> "Sam" <sam_m...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Gunner" <ran...@home.com> wrote in message
> >news:396B58B0...@home.com...
> >snipped
> >> any patronage appointment. I kinda like Doug Young when he was Defence
> >> Minister...kinda a no nonesense type.
> >>
> >
> >
Rick Collins
to the advice he is given, questions it where necessary, and fights to
accomplish what his instincts and the advice suggests needs to be
done. You also need a CDS who has broad experience, listens to his
commanders, and presents the Minister with clear, concise, and factual
analysis of the situation from a military perspective.
"Gunner" <ran...@home.com> wrote in message
news:396B58B0...@home.com...
> He only served one term (I believe because of his own choice, vice,
not
> being reelected).
> I thought he left to act as the national president of the taxpayers
> federation or a group such as that.
>
> Rick brings up a good point (yes, even once in awhile...;)...). Do
you
> really want someone who "knows the DND system" to be the Defence
> Minister. I don't think believe you require it and DND might be
better
> off with the guy who doesn't know anything. What DND does need is a
> politician who is capable of running a department like DND, and not
just
> any patronage appointment. I kinda like Doug Young when he was
Defence
> Minister...kinda a no nonesense type.
>
Rick Collins
"Frank Misztal" <fmis...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:396BCDD4...@sympatico.ca...
> The media killed the Airborne with the help of Scott Taylor through
> the publicity of video tapes handed to him by some Airborne people.
> The politicians jumped on the bandwagon to make a name for
themselves
> (along with Taylor). By the way, whatever happened to Taylor since
> Drapeau dropped out?
>
> The media has ruined many a life (not necessarily just military)
and,
> in many cases, needlessly. But they have the freedom of the press,
so
> they can get away with whatever they print. I've yet to see
> retractions or corrections published by the media when they are
proven
> wrong.
>
You must not read the newspapers verty much. Nearly every issue of
the Citizen contains retractions and/or corrections of one sort or
another.
> Politicians couldn't make a decision if their life depended on it
and
> usually go with the flow of public reaction without thinking too
much
> to gain votes. Opposition parties always go against the ruling
> government no matter what the final decision is/was.
> This is my personal opinion and anyone can nit pick all they want,
> but I stand by my personal feeling.
And you are entitled to it, no matter how wrong.
Pat Lon
there were still a variety of trades
Gary wrote:
> "Paul Charland" <p.ch...@sympatico.ca> wrote in
>
> > I think parts of this are true. I was on course 8012, the last trades
> course
> > through Cornwallis before five straight years of combat arms.
>
> Huh?
>
> Cheers!
>
> Gary
Frank Misztal
the publicity of video tapes handed to him by some Airborne people.
The politicians jumped on the bandwagon to make a name for themselves
(along with Taylor). By the way, whatever happened to Taylor since
Drapeau dropped out?
The media has ruined many a life (not necessarily just military) and,
in many cases, needlessly. But they have the freedom of the press, so
they can get away with whatever they print. I've yet to see
retractions or corrections published by the media when they are proven
wrong.
Politicians couldn't make a decision if their life depended on it and
usually go with the flow of public reaction without thinking too much
to gain votes. Opposition parties always go against the ruling
government no matter what the final decision is/was.
This is my personal opinion and anyone can nit pick all they want,
but I stand by my personal feeling.
Frank...
Gunner wrote:
>
> Gord...for the second time in two days I've have to agree with you
> again. Politicians did not kill the Airborne Regiment, the chain of
> command (MCpl on up) and the soldiers of the Airborne did it to
> themselves.
>
> Gord Beaman wrote:
> >
> > "Sam" <sam_m...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >"Gunner" <ran...@home.com> wrote in message
> > >news:396B58B0...@home.com...
> > >snipped
> > >> any patronage appointment. I kinda like Doug Young when he was Defence
> > >> Minister...kinda a no nonesense type.
> > >>
> > >
> > >
Gary
"Gunner" <ran...@home.com> wrote\
> When the Liberals pulled the Somalia Commissions mandate I think it
was
> realized by all that nothing was going to come of it. Most of the
main
> players had been allowed to retire (rightly or wrongly) and all the
> commission was doing was further destroying the morale of the CF.
There
> was nothing to gain at that point.
The shame is that we'll never know.
I tend to think the rug was pulled because the Inquiry was about to
delve into the "meat" of the cover-up, and the poop was about to spray
outside the confines of men in uniform. But then again, I'm just another
crackpot conspiracy theorist ;)
Cheers!
Gary
Gord Beaman
> The media killed the Airborne with the help of Scott Taylor through
>the publicity of video tapes handed to him by some Airborne people.
Not a chance Frank, if it weren't for the lousy control
exhibited by the Sr NCO cadre there then there would'nt have
been anything for the media to play with now would there?...that
film of the painted up animal covered with ammo belts and
brandishing about three machine guns was the most sickening
spectacle I think I've ever seen. I'm ashamed to think that he's
actually a Canadian.
How the NCOs were so derelict in their duties as to allow this
to transpire I cannot imagine. There is just no possible excuse
for it.
IMO the 'soldiers' involved and the whole NCO line connected
with this mess should have been turfed as unceremoniously as
possible.
CK
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---- Aspirant de marine Kinnard NCSM Montcalm Étudiant en Sciences
Géomatiques Université Laval
"Gunner" <ran...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3969E4CE...@home.com...
> > You completely ignored the examples I gave you- most of which were
supported
> > by the US at one time or another. Add those examples to Hitler's and
> > Musselini's butchery and you have some pretty startling statistics.
>
> I don't disagree with you what right wing leaders have done. My point
> was that left wing extremists have done as much and more in the name of
> the "people", but, it is only the right wingers that are villified by
> opposition politicians and the media.
>
> > > Very untrue...there is nothing illogical about the CAs fiscal
> > > policies...tax cuts, debt reduction, balanced budgets (ohh, really
> > > radical!).
> >
> > Funny - when you put it in those terms, they are exactly the same as the
> > current Liberal Policies...
>
> The only reasons the liberals are moving toward Reform (now CA) policies
> is because the Canadain people are becoming fed up with the amount of
> taxes we pay and what the money goes for (the government waste is
> incredible).
>
> > What is radical and illogical about CA's proposals is when the numbers
don't
> > add up. The idea is all well and good, but their means to the
end -which
> > could damage some of the good things about Canada (medical, education,
etc)
> > is what doesn't add up in my mind.
>
> If you remove the chaff from government spending, you will find that
> there is money and more to do everthing. It's a matter of priorities
> within the government...DND has the same problem as government, the
> money is there, but it is not always used properly.
>
> > If you believe that the CA is not already pandering to 'different'
special
> > interest groups then you are fooling yourself. All that will happen
under
> > their gov't is a change of priorities of special treatment.
> > You will see grants to christian youth crusades rather than to
Katimavik,
> > Grants to "REAL women" rather than to NAC (IMO neither should be
funded),
>
> Good points, however, the CA has always maintained that special interest
> groups should not be funded by government. Why aren't groups like
> "REAL" Women not funded to the same extent as the NAC? REAL women
> probably speak for more women in Canada then the feminist/lesbian run
> NAC.
>
> > I know we had this discussion before, but I will stand by my feeling
that
> > Mulroney was a traitor. Too many of his MP's were corrupt - and the
current
> > economic prosperity has more to do with world economics than anything
his
> > group did that was positive or negative. How many PM's left Canada
within a year of leaving office. I can only think of three; Mulroney and
Campbell were two of them.
>
> How was Mulroney a traitor? As far as I know Mulroney lives in Montreal
> right now. Kim Campbell, lives in Las Angles as the Canadian Consul.
> Creten gave her the job because he didn't want a former Prime Minister
> to be collecting welfare.
>
> > The fact that the PC's left Clark so quickly tells another story. I
agree
> > that he is a smart and decent man - but he was made into a loser by a
bunch
> > of Tory's that were neither smart nor decent. Had Mulroney not soured
the
> > party's population, Clark would be a strong leader for a hopeful party.
>
> I would rather vote for Clark's daughter then I would for Clark. The
> Tories "Day" has come and it is simply hurting Canadians by splitting
> the "right" vote. He should move to join the CA.
>
> > Military Content: Curious, how many MPs from CA have military
> > backgrounds/experience?
>
> Don't know. You can view the CAs biographies at www.canadianalliance.ca
>
> Sparky, I think in the end we agree on many things. Extremists are bad,
> whatever their stripe. Politicians will do whatever it takes to get
> elected. Politicians will woo special interest groups for their
> support. The upcoming election will be about two main themes: the
> Cretien way of bumbling along trying to do a little bit for everyone; or
> the Day way of moving forward in a new direction (right or wrong).
>
> Cheers!
>
> Gunner
Frank Misztal
>
> "Frank Misztal" <fmis...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:396BCDD4...@sympatico.ca...
> > the publicity of video tapes handed to him by some Airborne people.
> themselves
> > (along with Taylor). By the way, whatever happened to Taylor since
> > Drapeau dropped out?
> >
> > The media has ruined many a life (not necessarily just military)
> and,
> > in many cases, needlessly. But they have the freedom of the press,
> so
> > they can get away with whatever they print. I've yet to see
> > retractions or corrections published by the media when they are
> proven
> > wrong.
> >
> the Citizen contains retractions and/or corrections of one sort or
> another.
I do read the newspapers. However, if the news story is on their
website for the whole world to see, then they should put the
retraction/correction on the web for the same people in the world to
see the correction. I've received copies of letters to the editor
correcting misreporting and they were not published on the web or in
the paper. I actually should have specified military news stories in
my original statement. What you see on the DIN Rick, is not
necessarily available on their website.
> > Politicians couldn't make a decision if their life depended on it
> and
> > usually go with the flow of public reaction without thinking too
> much
> > to gain votes. Opposition parties always go against the ruling
> > government no matter what the final decision is/was.
>
> > This is my personal opinion and anyone can nit pick all they want,
> > but I stand by my personal feeling.
>
> And you are entitled to it, no matter how wrong.
I may not be perfect, but I'm not always wrong. However, you are
entitled to your opinion.
George Giannakopoulos
> "Sparky" <Rad...@spam.aircooled.net> wrote
>
> > Hey Folks;
> >
> > The 'basic training' thread got me thinking about my trip to the
> former
> > HMCS/CFB Cornwallis last week.
>
> How'd it feel to go back there and look around?
>
> I took a drive through myself around 1997-ish. It was sorta eerie to be
> cruising the hallowed streets in the comfort of my Pathfinder, vice
> running them at quadruple-double time, with the DS's cadence
> interspersed with all manner of invective meant to describe what would
> happen to us if we didn't get "there" (wherever "there" was) in time....
>
> It was a very strange feeling indeed.
>
> Cheers!
>
> Gary
On a somewhat-related note, has anyone ever decided to publish
(commercially) a tape/CD, or even a songbook of cadences? I often find
myself trying to pace my PT according to the rhythm of some long overused
cadences, and would like to learn a few new ones....
Regards..
"DUCIMUS"
Gary
"George Giannakopoulos" <ggia...@telusplanet.net> wrote
> On a somewhat-related note, has anyone ever decided to publish
> (commercially) a tape/CD, or even a songbook of cadences?
Our neighbors to the south publish a lot of that stuff, and it's
available both online, and through their PX system.
> "DUCIMUS"
405?
Cheers!
Gary
Andrew Chaplin
news:396E3E25...@telusplanet.net...
| On a somewhat-related note, has anyone ever decided to publish
| myself trying to pace my PT according to the rhythm of some long overused
| cadences, and would like to learn a few new ones....
|
on the march in quick time, providing they know the words to a good song:
Tipperary; Has Anyone Seen the Colonel; Soldiers of the Queen; British
Grenadiers (the dirty parodies) My Boy Willie; Vive la Canadienne;
Liliburlero; Mademoiselle from Armentieres; Heart of Oak; Wavy Navy, Up in
the Air, Junior Birdmen, etc. (Rotten Pats got all the good ones first, damn
it!)
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
Gary
"Andrew Chaplin" <abch...@home.com> wrote
> Sorry, Canadian soldiers don't usually double to jody calling.
Heh heh... tell that to someone who had to double while singing "I wanna
be an Airborne Ranger" over and over and over and over.....
Cheers!
Gary
stok...@hotmail.com
> My memories of Cornwallis are still vivid, even after all these years. I
> went through in the late summer/early fall of '72 (7235). My first encounter
> with the Platoon Sgt was at 0230 in a hangar in Greenwood. I considered him
> the gnarliest, most foul-mouthed life-form I had ever encountered. Surely
> this bastard wasn't married and if he owned dogs, they had run away. It
> wasn't until I had the pleasure of making coffee for the Staff one morning
> that I realized he was like any one else. Pleasant, talkative, and
> interested in how I was doing on the course.
> Those were the days of the five mile run in combats with rifle, full
> canteen, etc. I still don't miss Heartbreak Hill or the inevitable runs
> through the sand.
>
> Gerry
Hi Gerry;
Names Gary. I was in your course. I'm stok...@hotmail.com
cecec...@gmail.com
Name of the person is Edward Ramsey / Ramsay. Not 100% on the spelling but am sure of the time.
I tried reaching out to the veterans administration but haven't had much luck.
Thanks.
Andrew Chaplin
news:6517e0f1-9c1c-48fe...@googlegroups.com:
is part of the U.S. government) as it is bound by privacy. Have you asked
for your service file from the archives? If you were on the same course, his
name may be your course loading message.
You might just try "stalking" him through Facebook. Where was he from? Who
were his friends? In the latter case, think of a friend with an odd name and
do searches on that. I found my cubicle mate from CFRS course 7504 using
this approach--actually, I found his daughter, who "friended" me, then I did
the same to him several years later when he retired and joined Facebook. She
and he do tend to stand out in the crowd, however, since their given names
are Irish and Welsh--Meghan and Gary--and their family name is Armenian.
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
riri...@gmail.com
He would be in his mid 60's.
Any idea of a group our support I can go to help locate him?
Thank you.
Colleen
