civilian status compared to Military Rank

[SLAPPS]

The question I have to members of this group is;
Is there still a "civilian equivalence" to military ranks?
I can remember a civilian employee in DND stating that his status was equal
to that of a Capt. If this is the case, where is it written?

[Carter Lee]

Pat Smithers wrote:

> If there is indeed a document relating civilian equivalency, it's
> probably either in CPAOs or some NDHQ directive.

I once went down this road with a civilian school teacher in CFB Lahr
who told me he held "Officer status". I can assure there is no such
document and there is no such thing as "Officer status" except that held
by Commissioned Officers. A civilian employee can be accorded the
hospitality of the Officer's (or any other) mess. His "status" however
is still civilian.

BTW, I suggested to this snot nosed DND civilian school teacher that he
should test his "Officer Status" by issuing me an order, I'm still
waiting.

Carter

[Pat Smithers]

I've heard there is one, but never seen it. In my experience as a
Lt(N), I work for an ENG-04 who is at the same level on the org chart as
a LCdr; but, the ENG-05 they work for is at the same level on the org
chart as three other LCdrs with comparable (or less) seniority.

Salary-wise comparisions are difficult because of overtime issues; an
ENG-04 I worked with as a junior Lt(N) had a lower salary than me, but
he raked in thousands of dollars of OT each year, with the end result of
much higher take-home pay.

The only times I've seen this issue come up with any seriousness have
been when the public service employee(s) in question enquired about or
wanted to claim "officer status" and the priveledges supposedly accorded
to CF officers (i.e. sleeping in a cabin and eating in the Wardroom,
vice sleeping in a messdeck and messing with the C&POs). But IIRC such
issues are more a function of the individual civilian classification's
collective agreements than anything else (i.e. the EG and EL groups have
different benefits).

If there is indeed a document relating civilian equivalency, it's
probably either in CPAOs or some NDHQ directive.

[Michael Cuell]

SLAPPS wrote:
>
> The question I have to members of this group is;
> Is there still a "civilian equivalence" to military ranks?
> I can remember a civilian employee in DND stating that his status was equal
> to that of a Capt. If this is the case, where is it written?

The easy answer is that there are many civilian grades that appear at
the same level in organizations as military ranks. However, until the
civilian is "put in harms way", gives up the right to strike, foregoes
overtime pay, dissolves the union etc, etc, etc... there will never be a
true equivalent.

I'm not bitter, but in my mind equivalent = same.

Regards...

[cableguy]

Yes there is, however, the number escapes me at this moment. I had to deal
with this at work as I had civilians who literally refused to work for Sgt
stating that he was equivalent to a Capt/Maj.

After a whole lot of research and talking with CPO people as well as
PSAC people, it turns out that first of all, there really is no stated
equivalency to a military rank, rather there is a comparability. The books
establish that if you require a public servant with a military rank
equivalence, perhaps you should ECP the position to obtain that rank.
That's the jist of the equivalancy thing. Further , there is a written part
of the above mentioned pub that compares civilian classification to mil
rank, for allowances and quarters allocation and other administrative
requirement, but they are by no means an equivalency. Just a few examples
for you that I got out of this pub:CS01 is comparable to LT(although they
are generally employed as a cpl/Mcpl and paid as such, they usually answer
to a Sgt or WO. CS02 is comparable to Capt, with a salary range comparable
to lower end Capt.(these folks normally have some supervisory responsibility
and are employed as Sgt/WO/Capt depending on the place. EL06 is compared to
Maj but mostly employed as a Sgt/WO. You'll find these folks as LCMMs or
Trg Standards people.Their salary range is comparable to WO Spec 1 or MWO
standard.

That's about the jist of it. I recommend that you speak to your CPO
people on your base because there is a lot of flexibility in the
comparability table for differing employments. The CPO here also told me
that in some cases, where the civilian required the status as well as the
authority of an equal military rank, then that would be written into his
contract. An example of this is perhaps a Project Manager out of NDHQ. At
some point they were all Lcol's but with cuts and all, many PMs are now
civilians.

Cheers

Dan
SLAPPS wrote in message ...

[Michael Cuell]

Carter Lee wrote:
>
> BTW, I suggested to this snot nosed DND civilian school teacher that he
> should test his "Officer Status" by issuing me an order, I'm still
> waiting.
>
> Carter

Worth remembering the next time it comes up. Hope you don't mind if I
steal this one...

[Carter Lee]

My pleasure.

Carter

[Irv Finkleman]

There is a treasury board document which equates civilian positions with rank.
I do not know where to find it, or even the name of the document -- I only
recall having seen an excerpt from it way back when.

Irv

[Irv Finkleman]

There is a treasury board document which equates civilian positions with rank.
I do not know where to find it, or even the name of the document -- I only

recall having seen an excerpt from it way back when. The Civilian Personnel
Officer at a Base may have the
info.

Irv

[Mike]

cableguy wrote:

> .........., but they are by no means an equivalency. Just a few examples

> for you that I got out of this pub:CS01 is comparable to LT(although they
> are generally employed as a cpl/Mcpl and paid as such, they usually answer
> to a Sgt or WO. CS02 is comparable to Capt, with a salary range comparable
> to lower end Capt.(these folks normally have some supervisory responsibility
> and are employed as Sgt/WO/Capt depending on the place. EL06 is compared to
> Maj but mostly employed as a Sgt/WO. You'll find these folks as LCMMs or
> Trg Standards people.Their salary range is comparable to WO Spec 1 or MWO
> standard.
>

I think you mean CR01 and CR02 in you above example. I have never seen a
CS02 working for a Sgt/WO/Capt. CR's are clerks, CS's are Computer Support
folks.

Mike

[cableguy]

No I meant CS 01...they are computer specialists or another term, computer
technicians performing the IS support that our Cpls used to perform. I
write many of the TORs for them. CS02 generally works in the guise of a
Sgt/WO/Capt as a supervisor or Manager. Perhaps in some places, CS01 may
perform higher level duties but that is not the intention of the
classification. Also, there is such a shortage in this classification that
there really is no set standard for employment from one base to another. As
a matter of fact, CS01 can be competed "open, local" on the first run in
order to have the job filled quickly. I am currently competing for such a
job. The salary range for CS01 is 27xxx to 46089.00 at the top end(similar
salary to cpl/MCpl.)

As you mentioned, CR01 and CR 02 are in fact Pte/Cpl classifications
with very limited duties and of course lower pay, about 19000 - 27000 as a
range, I have the exact figures at work(on leave right now..until midnight
anyway...lol)

Have a good New Year

Dan

Mike wrote in message <386D1E28...@cyberus.nojunkmail>...

[cableguy]

OOps sorry forgot one thing. I said that CS01 work for a Sgt/WO and the
CS02 is employed as a Sgt WO/Capt...just to clarify.

[Carter Lee]

Irv Finkleman wrote:
>
> There is a treasury board document which equates civilian positions with rank.
> I do not know where to find it, or even the name of the document -- I only
> recall having seen an excerpt from it way back when.

I also recall such a document Irv but I don't know if it still exists.
What I do recall is that it drew very broad comparisons, mostly
applicable to the administrative milieu. AFAIK that document did not,
nor was it meant to, confer "Officer status" on any civilian.

Carter

[RJL]

Carter Lee wrote in message <386E19A3...@istar.ca>...

Hi Carter,

In the early to mid '90's while I was working at the Halifax MP Section, we
had a civilian "officer" position which was identified as the Security Ops
Officer. The two civilians that had each filled that position at one time
or another while I was there, were responsible for cmre's, and the MP
Security section (physical, IT & clearances). The position was eventually
turned into a CF position which was filled by a Lt/Capt. This civilian
position answered only to the B Secur O, issued orders, directives, policies
and wrote PER's for CF members. I don't know what their civilian
classification was but they definitely had "officer status" within our chain
of command.

Russell

[Carter Lee]

RJL wrote:

> Hi Carter,
>
> In the early to mid '90's while I was working at the Halifax MP Section, we
> had a civilian "officer" position which was identified as the Security Ops
> Officer. The two civilians that had each filled that position at one time
> or another while I was there, were responsible for cmre's, and the MP
> Security section (physical, IT & clearances). The position was eventually
> turned into a CF position which was filled by a Lt/Capt. This civilian
> position answered only to the B Secur O, issued orders, directives, policies
> and wrote PER's for CF members. I don't know what their civilian
> classification was but they definitely had "officer status" within our chain
> of command.
>
> Russell

Hi Russell;

Yes that Civilian Security Officer position was also in place when I
worked there in the mid seventies, in fact I worked for the incumbent,
the late George Chipman, for about a year. When He retired the position
was filled by a ex CWO, 811, by the name of Charlie Chittick.

I don't now recall the position level but it was high enough to be
loosely compared to a military Lt/Captain. The incumbent however did not
hold a queens commission, did not rate a salute and did not have the
authority to order men into battle. It is therefore my opinion that,
while he may have enjoyed the hospitality of the Officer's Mess, he did
not have the "Status" of a military Officer. To say that he could issue
orders, directives and policies is not quite correct. He could, within
his narrow operational scope, give advice and/or instructions to MP and
Security personnel based on the orders, directives and policies of the
BSecurO. He did not have "Officer Status" within the Base Security
Section's chain of command any more than the WO i/c patrols did. His
"status" was Civilian. He could only write and sign a PER as the first
level supervisor, the same as a Master Corporal or Sergeant can, and the
PER had to be clearly annotated as being written by a civilian.

Cheers

Carter

[R Collins]

"Michael Cuell" <mcu...@home.com> wrote in message
news:386C310A...@home.com...

> Carter Lee wrote:
> >
> > BTW, I suggested to this snot nosed DND civilian school teacher
that he
> > should test his "Officer Status" by issuing me an order, I'm still
> > waiting.
> >
> > Carter
>
> Worth remembering the next time it comes up. Hope you don't mind if
I
> steal this one...

You may wish to reconsider. If that civilian is in a management
position superior to you, you will find you _are_ answerable to
him/her though he is not in your "chain of command", that being a
military concept. You should also consider the difference between a
"command" and an "order".

There are hundreds of military folks who take "orders" from civilians
in the headquarters. You can start with the top one - the CDS.

[kima...@gmail.com]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Schedule_(US_civil_service_pay_scale)

[Andrew Chaplin]

kima...@gmail.com wrote in news:f479b2eb-dc97-4955-9679-
b538d9...@googlegroups.com:

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Schedule_(US_civil_service_pay_scale)

Irrelevant in this group, since its focus is the Canadian Armed Forces and
related topics.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

[albert...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, December 30, 1999 at 12:00:00 AM UTC-8, SLAPPS wrote:
> The question I have to members of this group is;
> Is there still a "civilian equivalence" to military ranks?
> I can remember a civilian employee in DND stating that his status was equal
> to that of a Capt. If this is the case, where is it written?

There is a loose equivalency. For instance, LCols are considered "execs" and the equiv of an exec 1 in the PSoC. When you get into strategic professional studies, such as JCSP, CSSP, NSP, etc, ou will frequently find senior PSoC managers or execs on them. For a civ to say they have the equiv of a Maj/Col, etc., is nonsense and say rather too much about their character. The biggest thing to understand is that the civs have usually never been in uniform and are essentially glorified paper shufflers. They donlt have much to say in an auditorium full of senior military officers with decades of leaderrshp and multiple tours under their belts.

[Andrew Chaplin]

albert...@gmail.com wrote in
news:c39d9f46-a1b2-458c...@googlegroups.com:

Lieutenant-colonels are not the equivalent of EX1s, those are colonels. That
said, "For a civ to say they have the equiv of a Maj/Col, etc., is
nonsense..." is essentially correct. That civvy might work in the
"Directorate of Paper Clip Attrition Control" as its 2-2 staff officer, but
he or she is still a snuffy civvy.

I respond as the former DLSP 3-2 and DLFS 2-3. No, I was not a civvy at the
time, I was the Land Staff's PY or FTE headhunter, and the last staff
officer you ever wanted to have visit your cubicle.

[stephan...@gmail.com]

On Friday, December 31, 1999 at 3:00:00 AM UTC-5, cableguy wrote:
> Yes there is, however, the number escapes me at this moment. I had to deal
> with this at work as I had civilians who literally refused to work for Sgt
> stating that he was equivalent to a Capt/Maj.
>
> After a whole lot of research and talking with CPO people as well as
> PSAC people, it turns out that first of all, there really is no stated
> equivalency to a military rank, rather there is a comparability. The books
> establish that if you require a public servant with a military rank
> equivalence, perhaps you should ECP the position to obtain that rank.
> That's the jist of the equivalancy thing. Further , there is a written part
> of the above mentioned pub that compares civilian classification to mil
> rank, for allowances and quarters allocation and other administrative

> requirement, but they are by no means an equivalency. Just a few examples

> for you that I got out of this pub:CS01 is comparable to LT(although they
> are generally employed as a cpl/Mcpl and paid as such, they usually answer
> to a Sgt or WO. CS02 is comparable to Capt, with a salary range comparable
> to lower end Capt.(these folks normally have some supervisory responsibility
> and are employed as Sgt/WO/Capt depending on the place. EL06 is compared to
> Maj but mostly employed as a Sgt/WO. You'll find these folks as LCMMs or
> Trg Standards people.Their salary range is comparable to WO Spec 1 or MWO
> standard.
>

> That's about the jist of it. I recommend that you speak to your CPO
> people on your base because there is a lot of flexibility in the
> comparability table for differing employments. The CPO here also told me
> that in some cases, where the civilian required the status as well as the
> authority of an equal military rank, then that would be written into his
> contract. An example of this is perhaps a Project Manager out of NDHQ. At
> some point they were all Lcol's but with cuts and all, many PMs are now
> civilians.
>
> Cheers
>
> Dan
> SLAPPS wrote in message ...

> >The question I have to members of this group is;
> >Is there still a "civilian equivalence" to military ranks?
> >I can remember a civilian employee in DND stating that his status was equal
> >to that of a Capt. If this is the case, where is it written?
> >
> >
> >
> >

I was just curious do you have any kind of reference or link as I am a CS-02 and a reservist and everyone keeps talking about the cs's being the equivalent to a officer. I ask as I would be interested in receiving a commission but I need some kind or reference whether civ side or DOAD or QRO.

Any help you could provide would be great. Thank you

[stephan...@gmail.com]

On Friday, December 31, 1999 at 3:00:00 AM UTC-5, Irv Finkleman wrote:
> There is a treasury board document which equates civilian positions with rank.
> I do not know where to find it, or even the name of the document -- I only
> recall having seen an excerpt from it way back when.
>

> Irv