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Vir Campestris
Dec 29, 2023, 11:44:46 AM12/29/23
to
Just had a message from them congratulating themselves on how
wonderfully they are doing.
30 new electric buses to stop pollution in the city.
In other news the park and ride buses still stop in the early evening
making it impossible to use them if you want to work late or go into the
city for the evening.
The article also says that they've put in 152 new spaces in the Babraham
Rd P&R. Interesting that, last I heard half the car park was shut so
they could install charging points. And the plan was that once they'd
done that they were going to extend it. (Why they didn't extend it with
charging points in the extension, thus avoiding disruption, is a mystery
to me.)
Completed. Past tense. Rummaging suggests they completed it in March,
and didn't tell anyone. When I checked it said it was 0% full, which
says to me either the counter is broken or nobody else knew it was open
again either.
Andy
wonderfully they are doing.
30 new electric buses to stop pollution in the city.
In other news the park and ride buses still stop in the early evening
making it impossible to use them if you want to work late or go into the
city for the evening.
The article also says that they've put in 152 new spaces in the Babraham
Rd P&R. Interesting that, last I heard half the car park was shut so
they could install charging points. And the plan was that once they'd
done that they were going to extend it. (Why they didn't extend it with
charging points in the extension, thus avoiding disruption, is a mystery
to me.)
Completed. Past tense. Rummaging suggests they completed it in March,
and didn't tell anyone. When I checked it said it was 0% full, which
says to me either the counter is broken or nobody else knew it was open
again either.
Andy
Theo
Dec 30, 2023, 5:13:35 AM12/30/23
to
Vir Campestris <vir.cam...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Just had a message from them congratulating themselves on how
> wonderfully they are doing.
>
> 30 new electric buses to stop pollution in the city.
>
> In other news the park and ride buses still stop in the early evening
> making it impossible to use them if you want to work late or go into the
> city for the evening.
That's a Stagecoach thing, shirley? They ran a trial (10+ years ago) where
> Just had a message from them congratulating themselves on how
> wonderfully they are doing.
>
> 30 new electric buses to stop pollution in the city.
>
> In other news the park and ride buses still stop in the early evening
> making it impossible to use them if you want to work late or go into the
> city for the evening.
P&R buses were every 20 mins until 11pm, but I was often the only passenger
on them. Since Stagecoach decided that's not commercially viable, that was
the end of that. Some P&Rs (Madingley Rd, Trumpington) are served (or
nearby) by other Stagecoach buses to some degree in the evenings I think
(and your P&R ticket is accepted), but they're mostly hourly.
GCT (and CPCA) are planning authorities, so actually setting the timetable
is down to Stagecoach, who aren't interested unless there's money in it.
Getting people from A to B is a side benefit.
> The article also says that they've put in 152 new spaces in the Babraham
> Rd P&R. Interesting that, last I heard half the car park was shut so
> they could install charging points. And the plan was that once they'd
> done that they were going to extend it. (Why they didn't extend it with
> charging points in the extension, thus avoiding disruption, is a mystery
> to me.)
>
> Completed. Past tense. Rummaging suggests they completed it in March,
> and didn't tell anyone. When I checked it said it was 0% full, which
> says to me either the counter is broken or nobody else knew it was open
> again either.
I assume the sensor is broken.
Interestingly the County Council who run P&R don't tell us the occupancy
numbers online, it's only the city council that publishes them. I suppose
the City does run the other non-P&R car parks with sensors.
Theo
Ken
Dec 30, 2023, 5:31:55 AM12/30/23
to
On 30 Dec 2023 10:13:31 +0000 (GMT), Theo
Stagecoach's hours as a supported service. Just after privatisation
bus timetables used to tell you which services were supported. Often
it was the whole route but sometimes it was just evening/Sunday
journeys, sometimes using a different operator from the commercial
service.
>
>
>Theo
<theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>Vir Campestris <vir.cam...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> Just had a message from them congratulating themselves on how
>> wonderfully they are doing.
>>
>> 30 new electric buses to stop pollution in the city.
>>
>> In other news the park and ride buses still stop in the early evening
>> making it impossible to use them if you want to work late or go into the
>> city for the evening.
>
>That's a Stagecoach thing, shirley? They ran a trial (10+ years ago) where
>P&R buses were every 20 mins until 11pm, but I was often the only passenger
>on them. Since Stagecoach decided that's not commercially viable, that was
>the end of that. Some P&Rs (Madingley Rd, Trumpington) are served (or
>nearby) by other Stagecoach buses to some degree in the evenings I think
>(and your P&R ticket is accepted), but they're mostly hourly.
There's nothing to stop the LA from running the service outside
>Vir Campestris <vir.cam...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> Just had a message from them congratulating themselves on how
>> wonderfully they are doing.
>>
>> 30 new electric buses to stop pollution in the city.
>>
>> In other news the park and ride buses still stop in the early evening
>> making it impossible to use them if you want to work late or go into the
>> city for the evening.
>
>That's a Stagecoach thing, shirley? They ran a trial (10+ years ago) where
>P&R buses were every 20 mins until 11pm, but I was often the only passenger
>on them. Since Stagecoach decided that's not commercially viable, that was
>the end of that. Some P&Rs (Madingley Rd, Trumpington) are served (or
>nearby) by other Stagecoach buses to some degree in the evenings I think
>(and your P&R ticket is accepted), but they're mostly hourly.
Stagecoach's hours as a supported service. Just after privatisation
bus timetables used to tell you which services were supported. Often
it was the whole route but sometimes it was just evening/Sunday
journeys, sometimes using a different operator from the commercial
service.
>
>
>Theo
Theo
Dec 30, 2023, 6:52:30 AM12/30/23
to
did for the trial. But not sure it would be the best use of funds if nobody
used them. Maybe they should have another trial to see if anything has
changed?
One awkwardness with the P&R setup is that there's the whole P&R branding
thing with dedicated buses owned by Stagecoach: if they contract Dave's
Coaches instead of Stagecoach to run the evening service they'll need a
second, different, fleet. And at present all the P&R revenue goes to
Stagecoach and 'Dave's' would take almost nothing in ticket sales (many
people would be returning on a ticket sold by Stagecoach earlier in the
day).
CPCA are exploring legal powers for TfL-style bus franchising where all the
revenue goes to them, they set the timetable and subcontract out running the
buses, where it would then be possible to design a sensible timetable whose
primary goal is to get people from A to B, rather than make money for
Stagecoach.
Theo
Tim Ward
Dec 30, 2023, 8:10:49 AM12/30/23
to
On 30/12/2023 11:52, Theo wrote:
>
> But not sure it would be the best use of funds if nobody
> used them.
You get those irritating questions in the council chamber: "Why are you
>
> But not sure it would be the best use of funds if nobody
> used them.
spending £27.83 of council tax payers' money on each passenger? - it
would be cheaper to pay for taxis for them!"
--
Tim Ward - 07801 703 600
www.brettward.co.uk
Ken
Dec 31, 2023, 6:38:17 AM12/31/23
to
On 30 Dec 2023 11:52:26 +0000 (GMT), Theo
I'm not arguing that they should or should not support the service,
just making the point that if a service is needed out of hours then
the burden does not necessarily lie on Stagecoach.
>One awkwardness with the P&R setup is that there's the whole P&R branding
>thing with dedicated buses owned by Stagecoach: if they contract Dave's
>Coaches instead of Stagecoach to run the evening service they'll need a
>second, different, fleet. And at present all the P&R revenue goes to
>Stagecoach and 'Dave's' would take almost nothing in ticket sales (many
>people would be returning on a ticket sold by Stagecoach earlier in the
>day).
>
Dave's would have plenty of capacity. Most of their vehicles would be
in use during the day, especially on schooldays. Revenue allocation
would be more problematic. I think it used to be illegal in the early
days of privatisation, but things seem a bit more flexible now (or
less enforced). But it was common for the split operations I described
to have NO inter-operator ticket availability, and sometimes they even
had different fares.
>CPCA are exploring legal powers for TfL-style bus franchising where all the
>revenue goes to them, they set the timetable and subcontract out running the
>buses, where it would then be possible to design a sensible timetable whose
>primary goal is to get people from A to B, rather than make money for
>Stagecoach.
>
Good. Bus privatisation, perhaps even more than rail, threw out not
just the baby with the bathwater but also the taps, plug, towels,
bathtub and house.
>Theo
just making the point that if a service is needed out of hours then
the burden does not necessarily lie on Stagecoach.
>One awkwardness with the P&R setup is that there's the whole P&R branding
>thing with dedicated buses owned by Stagecoach: if they contract Dave's
>Coaches instead of Stagecoach to run the evening service they'll need a
>second, different, fleet. And at present all the P&R revenue goes to
>Stagecoach and 'Dave's' would take almost nothing in ticket sales (many
>people would be returning on a ticket sold by Stagecoach earlier in the
>day).
>
in use during the day, especially on schooldays. Revenue allocation
would be more problematic. I think it used to be illegal in the early
days of privatisation, but things seem a bit more flexible now (or
less enforced). But it was common for the split operations I described
to have NO inter-operator ticket availability, and sometimes they even
had different fares.
>CPCA are exploring legal powers for TfL-style bus franchising where all the
>revenue goes to them, they set the timetable and subcontract out running the
>buses, where it would then be possible to design a sensible timetable whose
>primary goal is to get people from A to B, rather than make money for
>Stagecoach.
>
just the baby with the bathwater but also the taps, plug, towels,
bathtub and house.
>Theo
Vir Campestris
Dec 31, 2023, 11:24:37 AM12/31/23
to
On 30/12/2023 11:52, Theo wrote:
> The County/CPCA could choose to support the P&R services, which is what they
> did for the trial. But not sure it would be the best use of funds if nobody
> used them. Maybe they should have another trial to see if anything has
> changed?
>
> One awkwardness with the P&R setup is that there's the whole P&R branding
> thing with dedicated buses owned by Stagecoach: if they contract Dave's
> Coaches instead of Stagecoach to run the evening service they'll need a
> second, different, fleet. And at present all the P&R revenue goes to
> Stagecoach and 'Dave's' would take almost nothing in ticket sales (many
> people would be returning on a ticket sold by Stagecoach earlier in the
> day).
>
> CPCA are exploring legal powers for TfL-style bus franchising where all the
> revenue goes to them, they set the timetable and subcontract out running the
> buses, where it would then be possible to design a sensible timetable whose
> primary goal is to get people from A to B, rather than make money for
> Stagecoach.
Glad they are aware of the problem.
> did for the trial. But not sure it would be the best use of funds if nobody
> used them. Maybe they should have another trial to see if anything has
> changed?
>
> One awkwardness with the P&R setup is that there's the whole P&R branding
> thing with dedicated buses owned by Stagecoach: if they contract Dave's
> Coaches instead of Stagecoach to run the evening service they'll need a
> second, different, fleet. And at present all the P&R revenue goes to
> Stagecoach and 'Dave's' would take almost nothing in ticket sales (many
> people would be returning on a ticket sold by Stagecoach earlier in the
> day).
>
> CPCA are exploring legal powers for TfL-style bus franchising where all the
> revenue goes to them, they set the timetable and subcontract out running the
> buses, where it would then be possible to design a sensible timetable whose
> primary goal is to get people from A to B, rather than make money for
> Stagecoach.
The whole thing about the charging zone (which they dropped) does show a
slight disagreement with the mindset of these elected officials and they
people they serve.
They seem to be spending a lot of money trying to encourage people to
use these buses, and discourage people from driving into the city.
All they'd need would be one bus running a round robin around each of
the P&R sites. It doesn't have to be frequent, just exist.
Or maybe I'm wrong - if they did it in the past, and there was no
interest, that shows there's no demand.
Andy
Theo
Dec 31, 2023, 1:47:20 PM12/31/23
to
Vir Campestris <vir.cam...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Glad they are aware of the problem.
>
> The whole thing about the charging zone (which they dropped) does show a
> slight disagreement with the mindset of these elected officials and they
> people they serve.
>
> They seem to be spending a lot of money trying to encourage people to
> use these buses, and discourage people from driving into the city.
>
> All they'd need would be one bus running a round robin around each of
> the P&R sites. It doesn't have to be frequent, just exist.
>
> Or maybe I'm wrong - if they did it in the past, and there was no
> interest, that shows there's no demand.
If it's 15 mins out to a P&R and 15 mins in, with one bus each P&R site
> Glad they are aware of the problem.
>
> The whole thing about the charging zone (which they dropped) does show a
> slight disagreement with the mindset of these elected officials and they
> people they serve.
>
> They seem to be spending a lot of money trying to encourage people to
> use these buses, and discourage people from driving into the city.
>
> All they'd need would be one bus running a round robin around each of
> the P&R sites. It doesn't have to be frequent, just exist.
>
> Or maybe I'm wrong - if they did it in the past, and there was no
> interest, that shows there's no demand.
would get served every 2.5 hours. Not very useful. If you went point to
point between sites it wouldn't be much quicker (quickest route radially
between sites is often centre of town anyway).
So you'd have to run several buses. With the trial they ran to only
Trumpington every 20 minutes, so it was just one bus doing the route all
evening (and punters were told to drive to Trumpington if they needed
evening service). But even that wasn't enough demand to make it self
sustaining, at least on terms that made Stagecoach happy.
Really the answer is just to add P&R stops to existing buses: give
Cambourne, Trumpington, Milton, Bottisham, Linton a 20/30 minute service and
stop at or near the P&R on the way. Which is something franchising could
achieve, without silliness like making people who bought a P&R return buy
another ticket because their ticket is not valid on non-P&R buses.
That way, maybe some people will even not need to drive at all if they can
pick up that bus directly from their village...
Theo
Roland Perry
Jan 1, 2024, 2:29:41 AMJan 1
to
In message <fVh*n3...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 18:47:17 on Sun,
31 Dec 2023, Theo <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>Really the answer is just to add P&R stops to existing buses: give
>Cambourne, Trumpington, Milton, Bottisham, Linton a 20/30 minute service and
>stop at or near the P&R on the way.
Isn't that in effect what they did recently at Milton? Partly of offset
the way the #9 from Littleport/Ely no longer serves the village.
--
Roland Perry
31 Dec 2023, Theo <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>Really the answer is just to add P&R stops to existing buses: give
>Cambourne, Trumpington, Milton, Bottisham, Linton a 20/30 minute service and
>stop at or near the P&R on the way.
the way the #9 from Littleport/Ely no longer serves the village.
--
Roland Perry
Theo
Jan 1, 2024, 12:43:59 PMJan 1
to
Milton Tesco nortbound in the evenings. Southbound it goes Tesco -> P&R ->
Cambridge North station and then disappear into the aether (Cowley Road
depot?).
Does that mean the route is actually City Centre -> Milton Tesco -> P&R ->
Cambridge North? With the bus doing a loop through Milton (ie southbound
departs Tesco heading north)?
Assuming it does so, it looks like it leaves town half hourly until 2314,
which is quite decent, taking a half hour.
Theo
Alan
Jan 1, 2024, 4:21:30 PMJan 1
to
On Mon, 01 Jan 2024 17:43:55 -0000, Theo
<theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <fVh*n3...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 18:47:17 on Sun,
>> 31 Dec 2023, Theo <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>>
>> >Really the answer is just to add P&R stops to existing buses: give
>> >Cambourne, Trumpington, Milton, Bottisham, Linton a 20/30 minute
>> service and
>> >stop at or near the P&R on the way.
>>
>> Isn't that in effect what they did recently at Milton? Partly of offset
>> the way the #9 from Littleport/Ely no longer serves the village.
>
> I'm not up to date, but it looks like the Citi 2 is timetabled as far as
> Milton Tesco nortbound in the evenings. Southbound it goes Tesco -> P&R
> ->
> Cambridge North station and then disappear into the aether (Cowley Road
> depot?).
After station it returns to Milton Road and then turns left at the Golden
<theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <fVh*n3...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 18:47:17 on Sun,
>> 31 Dec 2023, Theo <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>>
>> >Really the answer is just to add P&R stops to existing buses: give
>> >Cambourne, Trumpington, Milton, Bottisham, Linton a 20/30 minute
>> service and
>> >stop at or near the P&R on the way.
>>
>> Isn't that in effect what they did recently at Milton? Partly of offset
>> the way the #9 from Littleport/Ely no longer serves the village.
>
> I'm not up to date, but it looks like the Citi 2 is timetabled as far as
> Milton Tesco nortbound in the evenings. Southbound it goes Tesco -> P&R
> ->
> Cambridge North station and then disappear into the aether (Cowley Road
> depot?).
Hind through Chesterton.
>
> Does that mean the route is actually City Centre -> Milton Tesco -> P&R
> ->
> Cambridge North? With the bus doing a loop through Milton (ie southbound
> departs Tesco heading north)?
on A10 and right into P&R.
>
> Assuming it does so, it looks like it leaves town half hourly until 2314,
> which is quite decent, taking a half hour.
>
> Theo
Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Roland Perry
Jan 2, 2024, 3:22:46 AMJan 2
to
In message <hWF*25...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 17:43:55 on Mon,
1 Jan 2024, Theo <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
It's more complicated than I thought! The P&R bus still goes direct[as
does the #9 now] (missing Cambridge North), then during the day there's
an hourly #2 which loops round the village, and visits Cambridge North.
The main loss of service is trips like #9 A10 corridor from the north,
to anywhere in Milton.
--
Roland Perry
1 Jan 2024, Theo <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
does the #9 now] (missing Cambridge North), then during the day there's
an hourly #2 which loops round the village, and visits Cambridge North.
The main loss of service is trips like #9 A10 corridor from the north,
to anywhere in Milton.
--
Roland Perry
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