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MGB is a road after all
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Rupert Moss-Eccardt
Mar 7, 2013, 4:46:49 AM3/7/13
to
http://www.elystandard.co.uk/news/soham_bus_driver_to_be_first_charged_for_driving_without_due_care_and_attention_on_116m_guided_busway_1_1967394
I think this might just be a reporting mistake. I spoke to the Editor
and he thought the charge was under the RTRA, which I don't think
applies to the Busway itself. I think it most likely that the driver is
being charged for bumping into the busway as he was about to leave the
highway (being the bit where the busway crosses existing roads)
Thoughts anyone?
I think this might just be a reporting mistake. I spoke to the Editor
and he thought the charge was under the RTRA, which I don't think
applies to the Busway itself. I think it most likely that the driver is
being charged for bumping into the busway as he was about to leave the
highway (being the bit where the busway crosses existing roads)
Thoughts anyone?
Roland Perry
Mar 7, 2013, 5:08:28 AM3/7/13
to
In message <apr609...@mid.individual.net>, at 09:46:49 on Thu, 7 Mar
2013, Rupert Moss-Eccardt <r.moss-...@computer.org> remarked:
>http://www.elystandard.co.uk/news/soham_bus_driver_to_be_first_charged_f
>or_driving_without_due_care_and_attention_on_116m_guided_busway_1_196739>4
decker: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-20670089
(The "not in service" would be a sign on a single decker coming the
other way.)
--
Roland Perry
2013, Rupert Moss-Eccardt <r.moss-...@computer.org> remarked:
>http://www.elystandard.co.uk/news/soham_bus_driver_to_be_first_charged_f
>or_driving_without_due_care_and_attention_on_116m_guided_busway_1_196739>4
>
>I think this might just be a reporting mistake. I spoke to the Editor
>and he thought the charge was under the RTRA, which I don't think
>applies to the Busway itself. I think it most likely that the driver
>is being charged for bumping into the busway as he was about to leave
>the highway (being the bit where the busway crosses existing roads)
>
>Thoughts anyone?
was it really a single decker - this picture looks more like a double
>I think this might just be a reporting mistake. I spoke to the Editor
>and he thought the charge was under the RTRA, which I don't think
>applies to the Busway itself. I think it most likely that the driver
>is being charged for bumping into the busway as he was about to leave
>the highway (being the bit where the busway crosses existing roads)
>
>Thoughts anyone?
decker: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-20670089
(The "not in service" would be a sign on a single decker coming the
other way.)
--
Roland Perry
Rupert Moss-Eccardt
Mar 7, 2013, 7:54:43 AM3/7/13
to
the back of the bus, you'll see his head is up to halfway up the body.
Therefore single decker
Keith W
Mar 7, 2013, 3:34:37 PM3/7/13
to
authorizing it
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/3523/article/3/made
<Quote>
Application of the New Roads and Street Works Act 1991
3.-(1) The authorised guided busway shall be regarded as a tramway
undertaking
for the purposes of the application of Part III of the 1991 Act (street
works) to it,
and accordingly, the provisions of that Part relating to tramway
undertakings
and tramways shall apply to the authorised guided busway.
(2) Section 56 (directions as to timing) and section 58 (restrictions
following
substantial road works) of the 1991 Act shall not apply in relation to any
works
executed under the power of this Order.
(3) The provisions of the 1991 Act mentioned in paragraph (4) which together
with other provisions of that Act apply in relation to the execution of
street
works and any regulations made or code of practice issued or approved
under those provisions, shall apply (with the necessary modifications)
in relation to the stopping-up, alteration or diversion of a street by the
undertaker under the powers conferred by this Order whether or not
the stopping up, alteration or diversion constitutes street works
within the meaning of that Act.
</Quote>
Keith
Roland Perry
Mar 7, 2013, 3:44:23 PM3/7/13
to
In message <wR6_s.81388$fB.5...@fx27.fr7>, at 20:34:37 on Thu, 7 Mar
2013, Keith W <keithnosp...@demon.co.uk> remarked:
That all seems to be about provisioning it, no mention of what law
applies when driving on it.
--
Roland Perry
2013, Keith W <keithnosp...@demon.co.uk> remarked:
applies when driving on it.
--
Roland Perry
Keith W
Mar 7, 2013, 5:12:05 PM3/7/13
to
See
http://www.ukroads.org/webfiles/highway_legislation_for_tramcars_technical_guidance_note4.pdf
Keith
Roland Perry
Mar 8, 2013, 1:37:15 AM3/8/13
to
In message <Ug8_s.1683$wa4...@fx18.fr7>, at 22:12:05 on Thu, 7 Mar
Interestingly, there's a section which seems to be saying that the
tracks (in the street) are in a sense a very long thin level crossing.
It's almost the case that where the busway crosses roads that it could
be regarded as a form of level crossing, but there's no signage for
that, either in the field or in the regs (only signs for train and tram
level crossings). And, of course, the busway doesn't actually cross any
roads, it starts and stops either side.
--
Roland Perry
2013, Keith W <keithnosp...@demon.co.uk> remarked:
>The point is that Tramways are subject to the Road Traffic Act 1991.
>
>See
>http://www.ukroads.org/webfiles/highway_legislation_for_tramcars_technical_guidance_note4.pdf
That appears to be about *street*-running tram*cars*.
>
>See
>http://www.ukroads.org/webfiles/highway_legislation_for_tramcars_technical_guidance_note4.pdf
Interestingly, there's a section which seems to be saying that the
tracks (in the street) are in a sense a very long thin level crossing.
It's almost the case that where the busway crosses roads that it could
be regarded as a form of level crossing, but there's no signage for
that, either in the field or in the regs (only signs for train and tram
level crossings). And, of course, the busway doesn't actually cross any
roads, it starts and stops either side.
--
Roland Perry
Keith W
Mar 8, 2013, 4:53:20 AM3/8/13
to
Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <Ug8_s.1683$wa4...@fx18.fr7>, at 22:12:05 on Thu, 7 Mar
> 2013, Keith W <keithnosp...@demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> The point is that Tramways are subject to the Road Traffic Act 1991.
>>
>> See
>> http://www.ukroads.org/webfiles/highway_legislation_for_tramcars_technical_guidance_note4.pdf
>
> That appears to be about *street*-running tram*cars*.
>
Which is what the guided bus is classed as for legal purposes.
> In message <Ug8_s.1683$wa4...@fx18.fr7>, at 22:12:05 on Thu, 7 Mar
> 2013, Keith W <keithnosp...@demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> The point is that Tramways are subject to the Road Traffic Act 1991.
>>
>> See
>> http://www.ukroads.org/webfiles/highway_legislation_for_tramcars_technical_guidance_note4.pdf
>
> That appears to be about *street*-running tram*cars*.
>
Keith
Roland Perry
Mar 8, 2013, 5:20:34 AM3/8/13
to
In message <kyi_s.1229$xo3...@fx21.fr7>, at 09:53:20 on Fri, 8 Mar
dedicated busway, or a bus using normal roads without guidance.
The document above is about the rules when trams and ordinary vehicles
are mixed together in an environment where there's street-running.
It may well be that the dedicated busway is regarded as a dedicated tram
way, but that's not important in this context.
--
Roland Perry
2013, Keith W <keithnosp...@demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> The point is that Tramways are subject to the Road Traffic Act 1991.
>>>
>>> See
>>> http://www.ukroads.org/webfiles/highway_legislation_for_tramcars_technical_guidance_note4.pdf
>>
>> That appears to be about *street*-running tram*cars*.
>
>Which is what the guided bus is classed as for legal purposes.
There isn't any street-running involved in the busway. It's either a
>>> The point is that Tramways are subject to the Road Traffic Act 1991.
>>>
>>> See
>>> http://www.ukroads.org/webfiles/highway_legislation_for_tramcars_technical_guidance_note4.pdf
>>
>> That appears to be about *street*-running tram*cars*.
>
>Which is what the guided bus is classed as for legal purposes.
dedicated busway, or a bus using normal roads without guidance.
The document above is about the rules when trams and ordinary vehicles
are mixed together in an environment where there's street-running.
It may well be that the dedicated busway is regarded as a dedicated tram
way, but that's not important in this context.
--
Roland Perry
Roland Perry
Mar 9, 2013, 2:55:38 AM3/9/13
to
In message <apr609...@mid.individual.net>, at 09:46:49 on Thu, 7 Mar
2013, Rupert Moss-Eccardt <r.moss-...@computer.org> remarked:
time of the accident because the bus was travelling along part of the
track that automatically guides the vehicle."
So where exactly did this incident happen? The only explanation which
combines the lack of alarm at the prospect of a bus "de-railing"
*itself* when on the guideway, plus the earlier idea that the accident
was a failure to enter a section of guideway is that the driver was
preoccupied and didn't notice that the bus had left one section of
guideway and was crossing the road towards another.
The TV report last night also talked about the driver "running a red
light", which is consistent with the bus arriving at a cross-roads.
Maybe they need something a bit like the railway's TPWS on the approach
to these cross-roads, before someone is killed.
--
Roland Perry
2013, Rupert Moss-Eccardt <r.moss-...@computer.org> remarked:
>I think this might just be a reporting mistake. I spoke to the Editor
>and he thought the charge was under the RTRA, which I don't think
>applies to the Busway itself. I think it most likely that the driver
>is being charged for bumping into the busway as he was about to leave
>the highway (being the bit where the busway crosses existing roads)
"The court heard Logan did not have his hands on the controls at the
>and he thought the charge was under the RTRA, which I don't think
>applies to the Busway itself. I think it most likely that the driver
>is being charged for bumping into the busway as he was about to leave
>the highway (being the bit where the busway crosses existing roads)
time of the accident because the bus was travelling along part of the
track that automatically guides the vehicle."
So where exactly did this incident happen? The only explanation which
combines the lack of alarm at the prospect of a bus "de-railing"
*itself* when on the guideway, plus the earlier idea that the accident
was a failure to enter a section of guideway is that the driver was
preoccupied and didn't notice that the bus had left one section of
guideway and was crossing the road towards another.
The TV report last night also talked about the driver "running a red
light", which is consistent with the bus arriving at a cross-roads.
Maybe they need something a bit like the railway's TPWS on the approach
to these cross-roads, before someone is killed.
--
Roland Perry
Jon Anderson
Mar 9, 2013, 6:37:49 PM3/9/13
to
Jon
ian
Mar 10, 2013, 6:49:26 AM3/10/13
to
"Jon Anderson" <j...@durge.org> wrote in message
news:513bc7c8$0$23481$5b6a...@news.zen.co.uk...
>> So where exactly did this incident happen? The only explanation which
>> combines the lack of alarm at the prospect of a bus "de-railing"
>> *itself* when on the guideway, plus the earlier idea that the accident
>> was a failure to enter a section of guideway is that the driver was
>> preoccupied and didn't notice that the bus had left one section of
>> guideway and was crossing the road towards another.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> combines the lack of alarm at the prospect of a bus "de-railing"
>> *itself* when on the guideway, plus the earlier idea that the accident
>> was a failure to enter a section of guideway is that the driver was
>> preoccupied and didn't notice that the bus had left one section of
>> guideway and was crossing the road towards another.
If I remember the correct station this is the site of the busway
'turn-back'. Just to the west of the station/ road crossing there is a gap
of about 50 yards on the busway when no guidance is provided so that buses
can leave the busway to turn round on a 30 yards square of concrete to the
south of the track. This could possibly explain why he thought it was safe
to 'tidy up' having just reconnected to the guideway
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> The TV report last night also talked about the driver "running a red
>> light", which is consistent with the bus arriving at a cross-roads.
>>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> light", which is consistent with the bus arriving at a cross-roads.
>>
As the lights automatically turn green when a bus approaches as the bus has
priority the only way to run a red light is to approach too fast and so
reach the junction before the lights have time to change. Is there a speed
limit on the guided sections and does the local road limit apply when
crossing the local roads?
Ian
Roland Perry
Mar 10, 2013, 7:10:14 AM3/10/13
to
In message <khhocp$c26$1...@dont-email.me>, at 10:49:26 on Sun, 10 Mar
2013, ian <i.bi...@ntlworld.com> remarked:
>>> The TV report last night also talked about the driver "running a red
>>> light", which is consistent with the bus arriving at a cross-roads.
>>>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>As the lights automatically turn green when a bus approaches as the bus
>has priority the only way to run a red light is to approach too fast
>and so reach the junction before the lights have time to change. Is
>there a speed limit on the guided sections and does the local road
>limit apply when crossing the local roads?
This is all part of the "is it a road" issue. I suspect there's no speed
limit for the busway, although there may be a separate regulation
regarding a speed limit for buses. Across the road sections we should
expect that road's speed limit to apply, unless (and see earlier in the
thread) that small section of the road is officially a tramway and the
buses are officially trams. But I'm not sure that applies because
there's no "tram-style" signage (cf level crossings with "steam engine"
signs even though none of the trains are steam).
--
Roland Perry
2013, ian <i.bi...@ntlworld.com> remarked:
>If I remember the correct station this is the site of the busway
>'turn-back'. Just to the west of the station/ road crossing there is a
>gap of about 50 yards on the busway when no guidance is provided so
>that buses can leave the busway to turn round on a 30 yards square of
>concrete to the south of the track. This could possibly explain why he
>thought it was safe to 'tidy up' having just reconnected to the guideway
That makes more sense of the reports, certainly.
>'turn-back'. Just to the west of the station/ road crossing there is a
>gap of about 50 yards on the busway when no guidance is provided so
>that buses can leave the busway to turn round on a 30 yards square of
>concrete to the south of the track. This could possibly explain why he
>thought it was safe to 'tidy up' having just reconnected to the guideway
>>> The TV report last night also talked about the driver "running a red
>>> light", which is consistent with the bus arriving at a cross-roads.
>>>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>As the lights automatically turn green when a bus approaches as the bus
>has priority the only way to run a red light is to approach too fast
>and so reach the junction before the lights have time to change. Is
>there a speed limit on the guided sections and does the local road
>limit apply when crossing the local roads?
limit for the busway, although there may be a separate regulation
regarding a speed limit for buses. Across the road sections we should
expect that road's speed limit to apply, unless (and see earlier in the
thread) that small section of the road is officially a tramway and the
buses are officially trams. But I'm not sure that applies because
there's no "tram-style" signage (cf level crossings with "steam engine"
signs even though none of the trains are steam).
--
Roland Perry
nm...@cam.ac.uk
Mar 10, 2013, 7:27:30 AM3/10/13
to
In article <apr609...@mid.individual.net>,
One thing that nobody seems to have mentioned is that the prosecution
might be ultra vires and, if the driver had been properly defended,
would have been thrown out on those grounds. That is far more common
than most people think.
Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
might be ultra vires and, if the driver had been properly defended,
would have been thrown out on those grounds. That is far more common
than most people think.
Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
Keith W
Mar 10, 2013, 8:13:21 AM3/10/13
to
By : Dr Chris Gossop BSc MA PhD MRTPI
Date : 27 July 2005
The buses would travel at a maximum of 100 km/h over
the majority of the route. Lower speeds would apply at entry/exit points to
the guideway (40km/h), and at signalised junctions and along the Arbury
Park section (48 km/h). Her Majesty's Railway Inspectorate (HMRI) have no
objection in principle to the proposed maximum permissible speed to be
adopted (CCC/SHD/5, 3.68-3.71).
and
4.73. HMRI would be responsible for certifying the safety of the system and
authorising its use. It would be expected to be presented with a safety
procedures case and operating regime. Speed limits would be set for
different locations (see also para. 5.32). The Eastern Traffic Commissioner
would have responsibility for the safe operation of all on-road bus
services.
He is the registrar for all bus service and licence applications for this
area
and would continue to exercise those functions over bus operators and their
services running on the guideway.
Keith
Roland Perry
Mar 10, 2013, 8:27:40 AM3/10/13
to
In message <BN__s.6394$Wt4....@fx31.fr7>, at 12:13:21 on Sun, 10 Mar
2013, Keith W <keithnosp...@demon.co.uk> remarked:
busway (a squashed cyclist) RAIB involvement seemed to be widely
discounted as a way to investigate what had happened, despite tramways
being in their jurisdiction.
Are RAIB investigating this incident, and if not, who is.
--
Roland Perry
2013, Keith W <keithnosp...@demon.co.uk> remarked:
>4.73. HMRI would be responsible for certifying the safety of the system and
>authorising its use. It would be expected to be presented with a safety
>procedures case and operating regime.
That's interesting, because when there was the first accident on the
>authorising its use. It would be expected to be presented with a safety
>procedures case and operating regime.
busway (a squashed cyclist) RAIB involvement seemed to be widely
discounted as a way to investigate what had happened, despite tramways
being in their jurisdiction.
Are RAIB investigating this incident, and if not, who is.
--
Roland Perry
Rupert Moss-Eccardt
Mar 10, 2013, 3:13:03 PM3/10/13
to
Stewart Brodie
Mar 10, 2013, 5:38:56 PM3/10/13
to
> >> The TV report last night also talked about the driver "running a red
> >> light", which is consistent with the bus arriving at a cross-roads.
> >> light", which is consistent with the bus arriving at a cross-roads.
> As the lights automatically turn green when a bus approaches as the bus
> has priority the only way to run a red light is to approach too fast and
> so reach the junction before the lights have time to change.
Is this a feature of that specific junction, because it's definitely not
> has priority the only way to run a red light is to approach too fast and
> so reach the junction before the lights have time to change.
true for others - specifically, the one I see every day at Milton Road where
buses often have to stop at the red light for a while for the lights to
change.
--
Stewart Brodie
Roland Perry
Mar 11, 2013, 4:04:26 AM3/11/13
to
In message <gemini.mjgs4w0080ci...@ntlworld.com>, at
21:38:56 on Sun, 10 Mar 2013, Stewart Brodie
<stewart...@ntlworld.com> remarked:
went into public service, and the lights there weren't operating "on
demand" - specifically they were 'against' the road traffic when there
were no buses around. I don't recall them being automatically green for
every bus, either. This may have been teething problems, or perhaps a
symptom of it being in effect a 3-way junction between the busway and
two roads.
--
Roland Perry
21:38:56 on Sun, 10 Mar 2013, Stewart Brodie
<stewart...@ntlworld.com> remarked:
>> >> The TV report last night also talked about the driver "running a red
>> >> light", which is consistent with the bus arriving at a cross-roads.
>
>> As the lights automatically turn green when a bus approaches as the bus
>> has priority the only way to run a red light is to approach too fast and
>> so reach the junction before the lights have time to change.
>
>Is this a feature of that specific junction, because it's definitely not
>true for others - specifically, the one I see every day at Milton Road where
>buses often have to stop at the red light for a while for the lights to
>change.
I spent some time observing the Histon [station] stop soon after the bus
>> >> light", which is consistent with the bus arriving at a cross-roads.
>
>> As the lights automatically turn green when a bus approaches as the bus
>> has priority the only way to run a red light is to approach too fast and
>> so reach the junction before the lights have time to change.
>
>Is this a feature of that specific junction, because it's definitely not
>true for others - specifically, the one I see every day at Milton Road where
>buses often have to stop at the red light for a while for the lights to
>change.
went into public service, and the lights there weren't operating "on
demand" - specifically they were 'against' the road traffic when there
were no buses around. I don't recall them being automatically green for
every bus, either. This may have been teething problems, or perhaps a
symptom of it being in effect a 3-way junction between the busway and
two roads.
--
Roland Perry
rosen...@cix.compulink.co.uk
Mar 11, 2013, 4:48:46 AM3/11/13
to
In article <py2TucJK...@perry.co.uk>, rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
wrote:
> I spent some time observing the Histon [station] stop soon after the
> bus went into public service, and the lights there weren't operating
> "on demand" - specifically they were 'against' the road traffic when
> there were no buses around. I don't recall them being automatically
> green for every bus, either. This may have been teething problems, or
> perhaps a symptom of it being in effect a 3-way junction between the
> busway and two roads.
Crap traffic signal controller design!
Colin Rosenstiel
wrote:
> I spent some time observing the Histon [station] stop soon after the
> bus went into public service, and the lights there weren't operating
> "on demand" - specifically they were 'against' the road traffic when
> there were no buses around. I don't recall them being automatically
> green for every bus, either. This may have been teething problems, or
> perhaps a symptom of it being in effect a 3-way junction between the
> busway and two roads.
Colin Rosenstiel
Clive D. W. Feather
Mar 12, 2013, 4:04:24 AM3/12/13
to
In message <wR6_s.81388$fB.5...@fx27.fr7>, Keith W
><Quote>
>Application of the New Roads and Street Works Act 1991
>3.-(1) The authorised guided busway shall be regarded as a tramway
>undertaking
>for the purposes of the application of Part III of the 1991 Act (street
>works) to it,
>and accordingly, the provisions of that Part relating to tramway
>undertakings
>and tramways shall apply to the authorised guided busway.
That simply says that the rules for digging up the road when building a
tramway also apply to the MGB.
--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home: <cl...@davros.org>
Mobile: +44 7973 377646 | Web: <http://www.davros.org>
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is: <cl...@davros.org>
<keithnosp...@demon.co.uk> wrote:
>The guided busway is defined as a Tramway in the legislation
>authorizing it
No, it isn't.
>The guided busway is defined as a Tramway in the legislation
>authorizing it
><Quote>
>Application of the New Roads and Street Works Act 1991
>3.-(1) The authorised guided busway shall be regarded as a tramway
>undertaking
>for the purposes of the application of Part III of the 1991 Act (street
>works) to it,
>and accordingly, the provisions of that Part relating to tramway
>undertakings
>and tramways shall apply to the authorised guided busway.
tramway also apply to the MGB.
--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home: <cl...@davros.org>
Mobile: +44 7973 377646 | Web: <http://www.davros.org>
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is: <cl...@davros.org>
Mark Ayliffe
Mar 12, 2013, 12:57:30 PM3/12/13
to
On or about 2013-03-10,
Stewart Brodie <stewart...@ntlworld.com> illuminated us with:
That one also changes for bikes coming out of the busway (along the
service road), I've been held up cycling along Milton road because of
just that sort of event. I'm quite sure there is a delay before the
lights would go through a repeat cycle. So it is conceivable that a
bike could trigger a light-cycle and a following bus would be held up
while the timers ticked over. Whether this is the case on any other
MGB junction I have no idea.
--
Mark
Real email address |
is mark at | "Happiness is a warm puppy," said the anaconda.
ayliffe dot org |
Stewart Brodie <stewart...@ntlworld.com> illuminated us with:
service road), I've been held up cycling along Milton road because of
just that sort of event. I'm quite sure there is a delay before the
lights would go through a repeat cycle. So it is conceivable that a
bike could trigger a light-cycle and a following bus would be held up
while the timers ticked over. Whether this is the case on any other
MGB junction I have no idea.
--
Mark
Real email address |
is mark at | "Happiness is a warm puppy," said the anaconda.
ayliffe dot org |
Theo Markettos
Apr 5, 2013, 9:07:56 PM4/5/13
to
Rupert Moss-Eccardt <r.moss-...@computer.org> wrote:
> I think this might just be a reporting mistake. I spoke to the Editor
> and he thought the charge was under the RTRA, which I don't think
> applies to the Busway itself. I think it most likely that the driver is
> being charged for bumping into the busway as he was about to leave the
> highway (being the bit where the busway crosses existing roads)
Another one ('satnav error'):
> I think this might just be a reporting mistake. I spoke to the Editor
> and he thought the charge was under the RTRA, which I don't think
> applies to the Busway itself. I think it most likely that the driver is
> being charged for bumping into the busway as he was about to leave the
> highway (being the bit where the busway crosses existing roads)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-22043728
(currently third most read on the BBC website... didn't realise the busway
was that exciting)
Theo
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