`Incident' with van driver

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Ian Jackson

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Oct 22, 2002, 3:40:40 PM10/22/02
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This evening I was coming down Bridge Street towards the Round Church
(outside the back entrance to Whewell's Court and the alleyway to the
craft fair).

I met a red van going the other way up the street. I stopped, and the
van stopped.

We had a discussion, where I said `wrong way' and `go back' and he
said `get out of my way' and `I got lost'. This was repeated on each
side a number of times.

He edged his van forward until it touched my bike. I retreated, and
started calling for bystanders to watch and be witnesses. He kept
driving forward, revving his engine, pushing my bike backwards. At
one point my bike fell sideways and I tried to catch it and nearly
fell under the advancing van myself rescuing it, but I leapt backwards
in time. The driver kept advancing and threatening me with his van
for maybe a minute or two.

I offered no resistance other than to be in the road, retreating in
front of him.

After a little and seeing I wasn't intimidated out of his way, he got
out of his van, came right up to me and said I should get out of his
way, and threatened me verbally (I don't remember the exact words).
When I didn't move, he picked up my bike and threw it to the side of
the street.

I went to pick up my bike and he rushed to it first and picked it up
upside down and threw it into the alleyway (that leads to the craft
fair). He then drove off.

I hadn't offered any resistance to his threats to me, or to his attack
on my bike. I think the man was caucasian, mid-thirties, with
short hair, and maybe a few inches taller than me. I don't remember
much about his dress.

I then wrote down the registration number of the van and collected
names and addresses of witnesses. While I was doing this and
collecting my belongings one of the bystanders noticed that a very
similar van was parked, apparently delivering, in Sidney Street near
Barclays Bank.

Then I came home.

I started typing this up at 8:20pm, so the incident probably started
around 8:05pm. I've phoned the police, and they've promised to come
round later.

--
Ian Jackson personal email: <ijac...@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
These opinions are my own. http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~ijackson/
PGP2 key 1024R/0x23f5addb, fingerprint 5906F687 BD03ACAD 0D8E602E FCF37657

Patrick Gosling

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Oct 22, 2002, 6:39:21 PM10/22/02
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In article <0WA*UP...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>,
Ian Jackson <ijac...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

[ Arggh. ]

Heartfelt commiserations.

-patrick.

Chris

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Oct 23, 2002, 4:27:14 AM10/23/02
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Ian Jackson wrote:
[...]

> I've phoned the police, and they've promised to come
> round later.

Good luck. When a similar thing happened to me (a man in
a car deliberately drove it in to me while I was walking
across a pedestrian crossing) the police didn't even
respond when I contacted them (in writing). I didn't have
the presence of mind to collect witnesses, though.

Cf. http://ex-parrot.com/~chris/wwwitter/20020904-police_stop.html

--
Chris Lightfoot, chris at ex dash parrot dot com; http://ex-parrot.com/~chris/
``... you cannot make a pair of croak-voiced Daleks appear benevolent even if
you dress one of them up in an Armani suit and call the other Marmaduke.''
(Dennis Potter, on ex-BBC big cheeses John Birt and Marmaduke Hussey)

Jonathan Amery

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Oct 23, 2002, 6:30:54 AM10/23/02
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In article <ap5mh2$d2i$1...@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>,

Chris <ch...@x.invalid> wrote:
>Ian Jackson wrote:
> [...]
>> I've phoned the police, and they've promised to come
>> round later.
>
>Good luck. When a similar thing happened to me (a man in
>a car deliberately drove it in to me while I was walking
>across a pedestrian crossing) the police didn't even
>respond when I contacted them (in writing). I didn't have
>the presence of mind to collect witnesses, though.
>
If its any consolation they wouldn't've prosecuted even if they had
paid attention to your letter - the driver had a friendly
witness... :(

This is a strange sort of consolation though :(

--
Jonathan Amery. <Khendon> They should leave Buffy dead and rename the series
##### "Willow the Witch". It'd be *much* better with more Willow :-)
#######__o <Sarabian> Better still, they should call it Willow the Wisp
#######'/ and bring in Evil Edna as the new baddie. Oh yes. - on afe

Colin Davidson

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Oct 23, 2002, 6:50:01 AM10/23/02
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"Ian Jackson" <ijac...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in message
news:0WA*UP...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...

> This evening I was coming down Bridge Street towards the Round Church
> (outside the back entrance to Whewell's Court and the alleyway to the
> craft fair).
(CUT description of extremely frightening incident)

Good luck with this, I'm sure we'll all watch closely to see what happens.


Chris

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Oct 23, 2002, 8:12:19 AM10/23/02
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Jonathan Amery wrote:
> In article <ap5mh2$d2i$1...@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>,
> Chris <ch...@x.invalid> wrote:
>
>>Ian Jackson wrote:
[...]
>>> I've phoned the police, and they've promised to come
>>>round later.
>>
>>Good luck. When a similar thing happened to me (a man in
>>a car deliberately drove it in to me while I was walking
>>across a pedestrian crossing) the police didn't even
>>respond when I contacted them (in writing). I didn't have
>>the presence of mind to collect witnesses, though.
>>
>
> If its any consolation they wouldn't've prosecuted even if they had
> paid attention to your letter - the driver had a friendly
> witness... :(

For sure. And in any case, given my failure to collect
the names of witnesses, it would have come down to my
word against his; and since he is clearly an upstanding
citizen who keeps an expensive motor-car, whereas I am
a mere pedestrian, I can't imagine that a prosecution
would have been successful.

(And, let's be honest, I wasn't expecting Plod of the
Yard to go screaming off, lights flashing and sirens
wailing, to arrest my assailaint, thence to hurl him
into the Scrubs to rot in ignominy until he no longer
poses a danger to society. Or, at least, that part of
it which uses Zebra crossings. I was just hoping for
some response from the Police. Sob.)

--
Chris Lightfoot, chris at ex dash parrot dot com; http://ex-parrot.com/~chris/

``Serendipity is looking for a needle in a haystack
and finding the farmer's daughter.'' (Hans Kornberg)

Steve Hunt

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Oct 23, 2002, 9:43:05 AM10/23/02
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> Good luck. When a similar thing happened to me (a man in
> a car deliberately drove it in to me while I was walking
> across a pedestrian crossing) the police didn't even
> respond when I contacted them (in writing). I didn't have
> the presence of mind to collect witnesses, though.

IMO you should keep writing to them, and if necessary
escalating it, until you get a reply. It's your
civic duty really.

Maybe if the police actually took complaints like
yours seriously we would not need so many ghastly
traffic calming schemes.

-- Steve

John Connett

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Oct 23, 2002, 10:50:36 AM10/23/02
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Hopefully CCTV will have recorded some of the incident ...

Chris

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Oct 23, 2002, 10:43:27 AM10/23/02
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Steve Hunt wrote:

>>Good luck. When a similar thing happened to me (a man in
>>a car deliberately drove it in to me while I was walking
>>across a pedestrian crossing) the police didn't even
>>respond when I contacted them (in writing). I didn't have
>>the presence of mind to collect witnesses, though.
>
> IMO you should keep writing to them, and if necessary
> escalating it, until you get a reply. It's your
> civic duty really.

Hmm. That has occurred to me. However, I judge that
I will not get very far, and that the whole exercise
will simply result in my getting frustrated and
depressed whilst getting nowhere.

> Maybe if the police actually took complaints like
> yours seriously we would not need so many ghastly
> traffic calming schemes.

Maybe; maybe not. In this case the motorist had
clearly been riled by the existence of a pedestrian
crossing on it and the presence of a pedestrian who
wished to use it. I don't think that changing the
number of traffic calming schemes is likely to do
anything to protect society from people like this.

--
Chris Lightfoot, chris at ex dash parrot dot com; http://ex-parrot.com/~chris/

Arthur: Why should a rock hum?
Ford: Perhaps it feels good about being a rock.
(from `The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy', by Douglas Adams)

Steve Hunt

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Oct 23, 2002, 10:57:34 AM10/23/02
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Chris wrote:
> Maybe; maybe not. In this case the motorist had
> clearly been riled by the existence of a pedestrian
> crossing on it and the presence of a pedestrian who
> wished to use it. I don't think that changing the
> number of traffic calming schemes is likely to do
> anything to protect society from people like this.

Was I unclear? I meant that if more bad motorists
were prosecuted for the type of incident you recount,
there would be a greater proportion of bad drivers
either banned or on 12 points and hence being
very very careful, and hence less need for
traffic calming.

-- Steve

Jonathan Amery

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Oct 23, 2002, 11:23:10 AM10/23/02
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In article <Xns92B0A638C4C9Fal...@193.150.150.3>,
Alan <alan....@deadspam.com> wrote:
>Last night on the way home, 7 out of the 8 cyclists at the Castle
>Hill/Victoria Road traffic lights going out of town, carried straight on
>across the red light. They knew no-one would stop them so why wait for
>green?

They need to have the Fear of Jonathan put into them...

--
Jonathan Amery. "There are mathematicians who never open their mail,
##### mathematicians who sleep all day and work during the night,...
#######__o mathematicians who lecture in bare feet, and several who know
#######'/ the railway timetables for the whole of the British Isles" TWK

Hugo 'NOx' Tyson

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Oct 23, 2002, 11:29:09 AM10/23/02
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"Colin Davidson" <ca...@biotech.cam.ac.uk> writes:
> "Ian Jackson" <ijac...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in message
> news:0WA*UP...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...
> > This evening I was coming down Bridge Street towards the Round Church
> > (outside the back entrance to Whewell's Court and the alleyway to the
> > craft fair).

> (CUT description of extremely frightening incident)

How was it "extremely frightening" ? Ian could have terminated the
incident at any time, had he wished to, by simply saying "OK, hold on a
moment" and getting out of the way, surely?

It's qualitatively completely different from the random assaults one reads
about. IMHO *they* deserve descriptions like "extremely frightening".

- Huge

Martin Read

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Oct 23, 2002, 11:43:24 AM10/23/02
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In article <3DB6C057...@pace.co.uk>,
William Turner <william...@pace.co.uk> wrote:
>Surely I'm not going to be the only person who thinks that Ian
>was making an unnecessarily agressive stance, and as a result
>was responsible for escalating the situation to start with? It's
>fine for cyclists to harrass other users, but not to be the
>harrassed?

Look again at the description of the incident. A man several inches
taller than Ian (who IIRC is not exactly *short* himself), driving a
van, drove down the road the wrong way and became violent when told he
was doing so - and was happy to continue doing so when there were clearly
witnesses to the incident!

Such people are bullies thugs and should, as much as possible, be stood
up to, and, if possible, prosecuted - and ideally banned and possibly
imprisoned - for dangerous driving, or placed in a secure hospital for
the criminally insane if they prove to be so.

m.
--
\_\/_/| Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
\ / | in heaven his throne is made of gold the ark of his testament is
\/ | stowed a throne from which i'm told all history does unfold
------+ -- Nick Cave, "The Mercy Seat"

Hugo 'NOx' Tyson

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Oct 23, 2002, 11:54:31 AM10/23/02
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jp...@eng.cam.ac.uk (Patrick Gosling) writes:
> In article <m3lm4pb...@foo.surfingsuggestion.co.uk>,

> Hugo 'NOx' Tyson <hm...@surfingsuggestionx.co.ukx> wrote:
> >How was it "extremely frightening" ? Ian could have terminated the
> >incident at any time, had he wished to, by simply saying "OK, hold on a
> >moment" and getting out of the way, surely?
>
> Certainly.
>
> The nasty bit of it is the use of a vehicle to physically propel a
> bicycle out of the way. If you've not had it done to you, you may not
> appreciate how unpleasant it is, but someone with your common sense
> should at least understand the significant extent to which it is both
> an inappropriate and a dangerous action.

Absolutely; equally I would say that determinedly staying in the road once
another vehicle appears to be doing this is also an inappropriate and a
dangerous action.

It's funny, when both cycling and driving, I try to anticipate and be
tolerant of other people's mistakes, and non-confrontational at all times.

"Did you know you're going the wrong way down a one-way street"
"Fuck off and get out of the way"
"OK, hang on, but I think you should know that lots of other people will
also be not expecting you - please be careful..."

- Huge

Chris

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Oct 23, 2002, 11:13:11 AM10/23/02
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I probably agree with that. I just don't think that this
guy will get prosecuted for this incident.

--
Chris Lightfoot, chris at ex dash parrot dot com; http://ex-parrot.com/~chris/

``Today's youth should be as morally upright as are the leaders of the free
world, and should never consider violence as a way of settling disputes,
regardless of provocation, any more than NATO does.'' (Dan Rutter)

Alan

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Oct 23, 2002, 11:20:20 AM10/23/02
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Steve Hunt <st...@pSoPgAgMle.org> wrote in news:1035385054.97190.0
@doris.uk.clara.net:

Also, if road users thought that there was a chance of being caught for
infringements, they'd probably drive/cycle to within the law in the
first place anyway.

Last night on the way home, 7 out of the 8 cyclists at the Castle
Hill/Victoria Road traffic lights going out of town, carried straight on
across the red light. They knew no-one would stop them so why wait for
green?

Alan

--
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Replace 'deadspam.com' with penguinclub.org.uk to reply in email

Colin Davidson

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Oct 23, 2002, 11:52:26 AM10/23/02
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"Hugo 'NOx' Tyson" <hm...@surfingsuggestionx.co.ukx> wrote in message
news:m3lm4pb...@foo.surfingsuggestion.co.uk...

> > (CUT description of extremely frightening incident)
>
> How was it "extremely frightening" ? Ian could have terminated the
> incident at any time, had he wished to, by simply saying "OK, hold on a
> moment" and getting out of the way, surely?
>
> It's qualitatively completely different from the random assaults one reads
> about. IMHO *they* deserve descriptions like "extremely frightening".

Read the description of the incident again. The van drive advanced on a
stationary cyclist, the wrong way down a one way street. In what way is that
not extremely frightening?


William Turner

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Oct 23, 2002, 11:29:27 AM10/23/02
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Surely I'm not going to be the only person who thinks that Ian


was making an unnecessarily agressive stance, and as a result
was responsible for escalating the situation to start with? It's
fine for cyclists to harrass other users, but not to be the
harrassed?

I'm not excusing either side, but it's surely easier to go round
the van than start a full-blown argument in the road, probably
impeding other people's use of it as well?

Why can't people just be more tolerant? Would Ian have refused
to move if he was in a car?

w
--
|\ _,,,---,,_ Principal Software Engineer,
ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ Pace Micro Technology PLC,
|,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Cambridge, England.
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Email: william...@pace.co.uk

Patrick Gosling

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Oct 23, 2002, 11:35:05 AM10/23/02
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In article <m3lm4pb...@foo.surfingsuggestion.co.uk>,

Hugo 'NOx' Tyson <hm...@surfingsuggestionx.co.ukx> wrote:
>How was it "extremely frightening" ? Ian could have terminated the
>incident at any time, had he wished to, by simply saying "OK, hold on a
>moment" and getting out of the way, surely?

Certainly.

The nasty bit of it is the use of a vehicle to physically propel a
bicycle out of the way. If you've not had it done to you, you may not
appreciate how unpleasant it is, but someone with your common sense
should at least understand the significant extent to which it is both
an inappropriate and a dangerous action.

-patrick.

Hugo 'NOx' Tyson

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Oct 23, 2002, 12:07:14 PM10/23/02
to

Subjectively? You're acting as if your personal first impression is an
absolute truth. I think that description is exaggerated, and I've said why
I think that.

You read the description of the incident again.

The one-wayness of the street is irrelevent - both vehicles were stationary
before the contact incident began.

After stopping for a discussion, the van driver advanced on a stationary
cyclist slowly, nudging the cycle backwards, the description says. The two
were in voice contact. It seems to me that the cyclist could have escaped
the danger at any moment by saying "OK, OK, I'm moving, let me get out of
the way" and moving aside.

If that hypothetical escape route existed, then it seems to me that the
situation surely is less frightening than many other dangerous situations
of which we read here, from which no escape was available. Therefore,
since it is not at an extreme of danger and therefore frighteningness, it
cannot logically be described as "extremely" anything. "Pretty
frightening", I'd go along with. "Extremely"? No.

But I wasn't there. And nor were you.

- Huge

William Turner

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Oct 23, 2002, 12:21:34 PM10/23/02
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Martin Read wrote:
>
> In article <3DB6C057...@pace.co.uk>,
> William Turner <william...@pace.co.uk> wrote:
> >Surely I'm not going to be the only person who thinks that Ian
> >was making an unnecessarily agressive stance, and as a result
> >was responsible for escalating the situation to start with? It's
> >fine for cyclists to harrass other users, but not to be the
> >harrassed?
>
> Look again at the description of the incident. A man several inches
> taller than Ian (who IIRC is not exactly *short* himself), driving a
> van, drove down the road the wrong way and became violent when told he
> was doing so - and was happy to continue doing so when there were clearly
> witnesses to the incident!

I suggest that, having followed your advice, you do too. And then read
again what I said. Ian _escalated_ the incident. Didn't say he started
it. The 'becoming violent' happened _after_ a prolonged verbal exchange.

"We had a discussion, where I said `wrong way' and `go back' and he
said `get out of my way' and `I got lost'. This was repeated on each
side a number of times."

> Such people are bullies thugs and should, as much as possible, be stood


> up to, and, if possible, prosecuted - and ideally banned and possibly
> imprisoned - for dangerous driving, or placed in a secure hospital for
> the criminally insane if they prove to be so.

In general, yes. However, putting oneself in the way of them
for no good reason strikes me as somewhat stupid. There are
a _lot_ of dangerous road users around. My attitude is to get
away from their vicinity so as not to get entangled in their
dangerosity. Arguing the toss against some incompetent comes
under that heading.

Dave Holland

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Oct 23, 2002, 12:24:30 PM10/23/02
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Hugo 'NOx' Tyson <hm...@surfingsuggestionx.co.ukx> wrote:
>It seems to me that the cyclist could have escaped
>the danger at any moment by saying "OK, OK, I'm moving, let me get out of
>the way" and moving aside.

And (equally hypothetically) the driver could have run down the
cyclist, regardless of whether the cyclist was moving out of the way
or not. The possibility of a known nutter doing something wildly
unexpected like that seems to me to be what qualifies this sort of
incident as "extremely frightening".

>But I wasn't there. And nor were you.

and nor was I.

Dave

Patrick Gosling

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Oct 23, 2002, 12:15:46 PM10/23/02
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In article <3DB6C057...@pace.co.uk>,
William Turner <william...@pace.co.uk> wrote:
>I'm not excusing either side, but it's surely easier to go round
>the van than start a full-blown argument in the road, probably
>impeding other people's use of it as well?

My experience (in situations where a vehicle has been travelling the
wrong way down a road or on the wrong side of a two-way road, towards
me), has been that beginning to move out of the way leads to the rear
of your bike becoming very vulnerable to an impact as the person coming
the other way pushes past you.

I used to shift into the side of the pavement in such circumstances,
and found that even if I managed to do this in time, I would be left
less-than-the-width-of-my-bike's space by someone passing me at
considerably faster than a safe speed. Being driven into the kerb by
lackwits who are driving on the wrong side of the road is not a
pleasing, rewarding, or safe experience.

In my case, having my daughter on the back of my bike, I'm no longer
prepared to take the risk, and wait for the driver to find their own
resolution to their mistake.

Many drivers do not respond in a civilised or acceptable manner in
situations where they are completely in the wrong, I've found.

-patrick.

Colin Davidson

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Oct 23, 2002, 12:49:05 PM10/23/02
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"Hugo 'NOx' Tyson" <hm...@surfingsuggestionx.co.ukx> wrote in message
news:m3bs5lb...@foo.surfingsuggestion.co.uk...
(CUT)

> If that hypothetical escape route existed, then it seems to me that the
> situation surely is less frightening than many other dangerous situations
> of which we read here, from which no escape was available. Therefore,
> since it is not at an extreme of danger and therefore frighteningness, it
> cannot logically be described as "extremely" anything. "Pretty
> frightening", I'd go along with. "Extremely"? No.
>
> But I wasn't there. And nor were you.

Assuming that the barest bones of the story as presented are true then it's
extremely frightening. You seem to be arguing that one cubjective viewpoint
(mine) is neccesarily less accurate than another (yours)? While that's a
highly amusing argumentative stance, the purpose of taking it escapes me.


Colin Rosenstiel

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Oct 23, 2002, 12:39:00 PM10/23/02
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In article <3DB6B73C...@skylon.demon.co.uk>, j...@skylon.demon.co.uk
(John Connett) wrote:

I'm afraid I rather doubt that. Despite requests from Trinity College
Union some years back, All Saint's Passage (the alleyway to the craft fair
it was put) is not covered.

Colin Rosenstiel

Jonathan Amery

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Oct 23, 2002, 1:02:25 PM10/23/02
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In article <m3fzuxb...@foo.surfingsuggestion.co.uk>,

Hugo 'NOx' Tyson <hm...@surfingsuggestionx.co.ukx> wrote:
>
>jp...@eng.cam.ac.uk (Patrick Gosling) writes:
>> The nasty bit of it is the use of a vehicle to physically propel a
>> bicycle out of the way. If you've not had it done to you, you may not
>> appreciate how unpleasant it is, but someone with your common sense
>> should at least understand the significant extent to which it is both
>> an inappropriate and a dangerous action.
>
>Absolutely; equally I would say that determinedly staying in the road once
>another vehicle appears to be doing this is also an inappropriate and a
>dangerous action.
>

Once the other vehicle has started this it is impossible to safely
leave the road.

--
Jonathan Amery. Here I am Lord, Is it I Lord?
##### I have heard you calling in the night.
#######__o I will go Lord, if you lead me.
#######'/ I will hold your people in my heart. - Daniel Schutte

Jonathan Amery

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Oct 23, 2002, 12:57:14 PM10/23/02
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In article <3DB6C057...@pace.co.uk>,
William Turner <william...@pace.co.uk> wrote:
>I'm not excusing either side, but it's surely easier to go round
>the van

There usually isn't space to go around another vehicle here - hence
the one-way restriction.

Anyway, staying in the middle of the road is common advice for this
kind of situation, as it doesn't allow the driver to misjudge the
space available. (cf the restricted Bridge Street section by
Magdalaine).

--
Jonathan Amery. O speak to reassure me,
##### To hasten or control;
#######__o O speak, and make me listen,
#######'/ Thou Guardian of my soul. - J.E. Bode

Jonathan Amery

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Oct 23, 2002, 1:00:00 PM10/23/02
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In article <3DB6CC8E...@pace.co.uk>,

William Turner <william...@pace.co.uk> wrote:
>In general, yes. However, putting oneself in the way of them
>for no good reason strikes me as somewhat stupid. There are
>a _lot_ of dangerous road users around. My attitude is to get
>away from their vicinity so as not to get entangled in their
>dangerosity. Arguing the toss against some incompetent comes
>under that heading.

It is often nigh on impossible to get out of their way without
exposing yourself to worse injury from their vehicles.


--
Jonathan Amery.
##### The world is collapsing around our ears
#######__o I turned up the radio, but I can't hear it.
#######'/ - REM, Radio Song

John Sullivan

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Oct 23, 2002, 1:22:23 PM10/23/02
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Jonathan Amery <jda...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Anyway, staying in the middle of the road is common advice for this
>kind of situation,

Do you have a link for that?

John
--
Dead stars still burn

Mark Ayliffe

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Oct 23, 2002, 12:48:23 PM10/23/02
to

But this happened on Bridge Street, between the Round Church and Whewells
court, not in All Saints passage. Isn't there a camera on a pole by the
church? Or on the shops on the church side of the road?

Mark


Hugo 'NOx' Tyson

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Oct 23, 2002, 2:00:21 PM10/23/02
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"Colin Davidson" <ca...@biotech.cam.ac.uk> writes:
> "Hugo 'NOx' Tyson" <hm...@surfingsuggestionx.co.ukx> wrote in message
> news:m3bs5lb...@foo.surfingsuggestion.co.uk...
> (CUT)
> > If that hypothetical escape route existed, then it seems to me that the
> > situation surely is less frightening than many other dangerous situations
> > of which we read here, from which no escape was available. Therefore,
> > since it is not at an extreme of danger and therefore frighteningness, it
> > cannot logically be described as "extremely" anything. "Pretty
> > frightening", I'd go along with. "Extremely"? No.
> >
> > But I wasn't there. And nor were you.
>
> Assuming that the barest bones of the story as presented are true then
> it's extremely frightening.

ITYM to say that it is extremely frightening *to you*.

I can state as fact that it is not extremely frightening *to me*, because,
given the situation as presented, were it I as the cyclist, I can visualize
an escape route from the danger.

> You seem to be arguing that one subjective viewpoint (mine) is


> neccesarily less accurate than another (yours)? While that's a highly
> amusing argumentative stance, the purpose of taking it escapes me.

Not quite: I was more pointing out that these *are* subjective viewpoints,
as you agree. So it's not necessarily extremely frightening to everyone,
as your initial statement appeared to imply, that's all.

Think of the widespread abuse of the word "unsightly".

As always, I'm trying to get people to discuss things more calmly and
rationally, by trying to avoid extreme emotional descriptions of stuff.

Ah well.

- Huge

Hugo 'NOx' Tyson

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Oct 23, 2002, 2:09:49 PM10/23/02
to

Jonathan Amery <jda...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:

> In article <3DB6C057...@pace.co.uk>,
> William Turner <william...@pace.co.uk> wrote:
> >I'm not excusing either side, but it's surely easier to go round
> >the van
>
> There usually isn't space to go around another vehicle here - hence
> the one-way restriction.
>
> Anyway, staying in the middle of the road is common advice for this
> kind of situation, as it doesn't allow the driver to misjudge the
> space available. (cf the restricted Bridge Street section by
> Magdalaine).

That, I totally agree with. But after that, surely the "common advice" is
to co-operate, avoid confrontation, clear the way for the least
manouverable vehicle, and the like.

Consider an analogy: a large truck doing a 17-point turn, facing the wrong
way in a one-way street [offence #1], blocking the road for 10 minutes
[#2], with a failed brake and reversing light [#3], and dropping mud on the
highway [#4], in order to back into a building site. Do you, as a driver,
deliberately place yourself and your vehicle in harm's way to make the
trucker and his reversing-buddy aware of the error of their ways, thus
provoking a fist fight or damage to your car, or do you just wait
patiently? IMHO any sensible driver would wait patiently, or wait fuming,
whatever, but *not actually obstruct* them in any way.

Why is it OK for cyclists to act any differently?

- Huge

Hugo 'NOx' Tyson

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Oct 23, 2002, 2:12:30 PM10/23/02
to

Jonathan Amery <jda...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:
> In article <m3fzuxb...@foo.surfingsuggestion.co.uk>,
> Hugo 'NOx' Tyson <hm...@surfingsuggestionx.co.ukx> wrote:
> >jp...@eng.cam.ac.uk (Patrick Gosling) writes:
> >> The nasty bit of it is the use of a vehicle to physically propel a
> >> bicycle out of the way. If you've not had it done to you, you may not
> >> appreciate how unpleasant it is, but someone with your common sense
> >> should at least understand the significant extent to which it is both
> >> an inappropriate and a dangerous action.
> >
> >Absolutely; equally I would say that determinedly staying in the road once
> >another vehicle appears to be doing this is also an inappropriate and a
> >dangerous action.
>
> Once the other vehicle has started this it is impossible to safely
> leave the road.

My, that's a sweeping generalization.

FFS, they were able to talk to one-another! Tell the driver you're trying
to get out of the way, if he would only let you. No doubt a very small
percentage are loonies who by then have the red mist, but equally no doubt
most just want to be on their way, if you'd let them.

- Huge

Colin Rosenstiel

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Oct 23, 2002, 2:52:00 PM10/23/02
to
In article <0tj6pa...@192.168.1.252>,
mark.ayl...@nospam.pem.cam.andthis.ac.uk (Mark Ayliffe) wrote:

Maybe. The Council manager in charge is Martin Beaumont.

Colin Rosenstiel

Ian Jackson

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Oct 23, 2002, 5:51:52 PM10/23/02
to
In article <m3fzuxb...@foo.surfingsuggestion.co.uk>,

Hugo 'NOx' Tyson <hm...@surfingsuggestionx.co.ukx> wrote:
>Absolutely; equally I would say that determinedly staying in the road once
>another vehicle appears to be doing this is also an inappropriate and a
>dangerous action.

Suppose you're walking along peacefully and a gang of aggressive
people coming the other way block your and start to shout insults at
you, threaten you with violence, etc. Then perhaps not running away
is unwise. You might even say that it was risky.

But, if you don't run away and instead stand your ground peacefully,
and get beaten up for it, it would be most unfair to blame you by
calling your behaviour `dangerous', or `inappropriate'.

That is exactly what you're doing here: you're blaming me for not
giving in to intimidation. I accept that from the point of view of my
personal safety it would probably have been wiser to give in and run
off. I was standing up to a bully - that's rarely without risk.

How dare you blame the victim ?!

--
Ian Jackson personal email: <ijac...@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
These opinions are my own. http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~ijackson/
PGP2 key 1024R/0x23f5addb, fingerprint 5906F687 BD03ACAD 0D8E602E FCF37657

Ian Jackson

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Oct 23, 2002, 5:58:33 PM10/23/02
to
In article <m33cqxa...@foo.surfingsuggestion.co.uk>,

Hugo 'NOx' Tyson <hm...@surfingsuggestionx.co.ukx> wrote:
>Consider an analogy: a large truck doing a 17-point turn, [in
>difficulty]

That was not the case here. Your `analogy' is in fact a piece of
misrepresentation. There would have been no practical problem with
the driver reversing back towards the Round Church - a matter of
perhaps 50 metres - and then continuing on their way in a legal
fashion.

I've often given way to large lorries and other vehicles who are
having difficulty manoeuvering in the city's narrow streets; to do so
is only courteous and reasonable.

Diana Galletly

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Oct 23, 2002, 6:06:52 PM10/23/02