Long lost contributor

[Gropius Riftwynde]

I have not been on cam.misc for a very long time, and it seems to have changed mainly into a lost & found & wanted group. Am I mistaken? I hope so. There always used to be mathematicians and others around who could answer questions such as "Is it more sociable to leave a loo seat up or down?"

[ng...@aol.com]

On Tuesday, 13 August 2013 13:42:42 UTC+1, Gropius Riftwynde wrote:
> I have not been on cam.misc for a very long time, and it seems to have changed mainly into a lost & found & wanted group. Am I mistaken? I hope so. There always used to be mathematicians and others around who could answer questions such as "Is it more sociable to leave a loo seat up or down?"

Down is definitely warmer, though to be fair you might be able to get more people on if you leave it up.

[Gropius Riftwynde]

On Tuesday, August 13, 2013 1:50:49 PM UTC+1, Gropius Riftwynde wrote:

> On Tuesday, August 13, 2013 1:42:42 PM UTC+1, Gropius Riftwynde wrote:
>
> > I have not been on cam.misc for a very long time, and it seems to have changed mainly into a lost & found & wanted group. Am I mistaken? I hope so. There always used to be mathematicians and others around who could answer questions such as "Is it more sociable to leave a loo seat up or down?"

On Tuesday, August 13, 2013 1:50:49 PM UTC+1, Gropius Riftwynde wrote:

> On Tuesday, August 13, 2013 1:42:42 PM UTC+1, Gropius Riftwynde wrote:
>
> > I have not been on cam.misc for a very long time, and it seems to have changed mainly into a lost & found & wanted group. Am I mistaken? I hope so. There always used to be mathematicians and others around who could answer questions such as "Is it more sociable to leave a loo seat up or down?"

Well there you are. At one time you would get a flood of mathematicians debating, and resolving, this vital issue.

[Alan]

On Tue, 13 Aug 2013 13:42:42 +0100, Gropius Riftwynde <rers...@gmail.com>
wrote:

They're still around - but maybe it's holiday time.

To bring everybody out, ask whether cyclists should wear helmets, or post
a link showing how good wind farms are. :-)

--
Alan

To Reply, use e-s.news AT ourmailbox.org.uk in a sensible manner....

[Gropius Riftwynde]

Certainly not. I do not wish to discuss cam cyclists. Or windfarms. But I do see many familiar names, such as Paul Oldham, Douglas de Lacy, Roland Perry, The Natural Philosopher, Time Ward, and ... OMG don't say Alan Truelove is still posting. Haven't they euthaniazed him yet?

[Gropius Riftwynde]

My apologies to Tim Ward who is not, as far as I know, a Time Ward

[Rhodri James]

On Tue, 13 Aug 2013 13:42:42 +0100, Gropius Riftwynde <rers...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Thanks for that. I had almost managed to stop twitching every time I
heard the word "aerosol".

--
Rhodri James *-* Wildebeest herder to the masses
Disclaimer: it's all my fault.

[Gropius Riftwynde]

On Tuesday, August 13, 2013 2:17:34 PM UTC+1, Rhodri James wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Aug 2013 13:42:42 +0100, Gropius Riftwynde <rers...@gmail.com>
>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I have not been on cam.misc for a very long time, and it seems to have
>
> > changed mainly into a lost & found & wanted group. Am I mistaken? I hope
>
> > so. There always used to be mathematicians and others around who could
>
> > answer questions such as "Is it more sociable to leave a loo seat up or
>
> > down?"
>
>
>
> Thanks for that. I had almost managed to stop twitching every time I
>
> heard the word "aerosol"

Perhaps I should not point you to the article about the people who hacked the software Japanese toilets.

[rosen...@cix.compulink.co.uk]

In article <0e5d7a5a-4fca-4ad8...@googlegroups.com>,

rers...@gmail.com (Gropius Riftwynde) wrote:

> On Tuesday, August 13, 2013 2:08:04 PM UTC+1, Gropius Riftwynde wrote:
> > On Tuesday, August 13, 2013 1:57:59 PM UTC+1, Alan wrote:

> > > > I have not been on cam.misc for a very long time, and it seems to
> > > > have changed mainly into a lost & found & wanted group. Am I
> > > > mistaken? I hope so. There always used to be mathematicians and
> > > > others around who could answer questions such as "Is it more
> > > > sociable to leave a loo seat up or down?"
> >
> > > They're still around - but maybe it's holiday time.
> >
> > > To bring everybody out, ask whether cyclists should wear helmets,
> > > or post a link showing how good wind farms are. :-)
> >

> > Certainly not. I do not wish to discuss cam cyclists. Or windfarms.
> > But I do see many familiar names, such as Paul Oldham, Douglas de
> > Lacy, Roland Perry, The Natural Philosopher, Time Ward, and ... OMG
> > don't say Alan Truelove is still posting. Haven't they euthaniazed
> > him yet?
>
> My apologies to Tim Ward who is not, as far as I know, a Time Ward

Now there's a thought! I see you forgot me.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

[The Natural Philosopher]

The answer is obviously to leave it as you used it last.

To change it after use implies that you have at least added one extra
loo seats movement, and if the following person is of the same
persuasion,two.

Simple game theory suffices.,


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

[Jon Green]

On 13/08/2013 14:08, Gropius Riftwynde wrote:
> Certainly not. I do not wish to discuss cam cyclists. Or windfarms. But I do see many familiar names, such as Paul Oldham, Douglas de Lacy, Roland Perry, The Natural Philosopher, Time Ward, and ... OMG don't say Alan Truelove is still posting. Haven't they euthaniazed him yet?

No, he has not yet been put out of our misery.

Jon
--
WATCH OUT FOR THE SPAM BLOCK!
Replace 'deadspam' with 'green-lines' to reply in email!

[Gropius Riftwynde]

>
>
> Now there's a thought! I see you forgot me.

> --
>
> Colin Rosenstiel

No Colin, I have not forgotten you, even though we famously never quite met in person.

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 13/08/13 17:20, Jon Green wrote:
> On 13/08/2013 14:08, Gropius Riftwynde wrote:
>> Certainly not. I do not wish to discuss cam cyclists. Or windfarms.
>> But I do see many familiar names, such as Paul Oldham, Douglas de
>> Lacy, Roland Perry, The Natural Philosopher, Time Ward, and ... OMG
>> don't say Alan Truelove is still posting. Haven't they euthaniazed
>> him yet?
>
> No, he has not yet been put out of our misery.
>
> Jon

At least he has the decency to keep the same identity, so I never see
his posts and people have the good sense not to respond, so I don't see
those either.

[Michael Kilpatrick]

Your on-line name is so familar it came as no surprise to me to see it
here on cam.misc - which probably shows how unobservant I have been in
not realising you had been absent!

Michael

[Mark Goodge]

On Tue, 13 Aug 2013 17:06:29 +0100, The Natural Philosopher put finger to
keyboard and typed:

>On 13/08/13 13:45, ng...@aol.com wrote:
>> On Tuesday, 13 August 2013 13:42:42 UTC+1, Gropius Riftwynde wrote:
>>> I have not been on cam.misc for a very long time, and it seems to have changed mainly into a lost & found & wanted group. Am I mistaken? I hope so. There always used to be mathematicians and others around who could answer questions such as "Is it more sociable to leave a loo seat up or down?"
>> Down is definitely warmer, though to be fair you might be able to get more people on if you leave it up.
>The answer is obviously to leave it as you used it last.
>
>To change it after use implies that you have at least added one extra
>loo seats movement, and if the following person is of the same
>persuasion,two.

That doesn't answer the question as asked. The question is not "which
option minimises the number of seat movements?", it's "which option is more
sociable?". The number of seat movements made by the departing user is,
therefore, irrelevent. What matters is the likelihood that the incoming
user will need to move it.

The correct answer, therefore, is the option which is most likely to be
favoured by the next user. And that in turn depends on the number of people
likely to be using it, and the proportion of different sexes.

Taking the most simple scenario, of a single toilet in a house shared by
two people of the opposite sex, then, assuming approximately equal
bladder/bowel capacity in both, usage will generally alternate. So each
user should, therefore, leave the seat in the position most likely to be
desired by the other.

If, though, there are more people using the toilet - a student house-share,
for example, then things change. If there are two male and three female
occupants there is a 75% probability that the next user after a male user
(again, assuning approximately equal waste capacity) will be female, so the
obvious answer is that the men should leave the seat down. Following a
female user, there is an equal probability of male or female. However, men
sometimes use the seat down while women always do. So, in this case, all
the users - male and female - should leave the seat down.

If we reverse the numbers, so there are three male and two female
occupants, then things change a bit. If the user is male, then there is an
equal probability that the next user will be either male or female. Women
always use the seat down, and men use it down sometimes, so the likelihood
that the next user will need the seat down is greater than the likeihood of
needing it up. So male users, in this scenario, should leave the seat down.
But if a woman uses it, then there is a 75% probability that the next user
will be male. This is where it gets complicated, because to answer the
question we now also need to know the approximate ratio of poo to wee[1] in
the average adult male. I had to Google this (sad, but true), and
apparently the average person poos once a day and pees 7 times a day. That
means that, in this scenario, there is a 75% probability of the next user
being someone who has an 87.5% probability of wanting the seat up. That's a
65.625% probability that the next user will want the seat up. So, up it
gets left.

You can do the calculations for various different combinations, but what it
comes down to is that any user should leave the seat up if more than 57% of
the other users (disregarding the departing user) are male, and down if
fewer than 57% are male. That, of course, assumes an average poo/wee
frequency on the part of all users.

It gets more complicated, though, because time matters as well. In
particular, the averaqge person is more likely to poo fairly early in the
morning, shortly after getting up, and less likely to as the day goes on.
That creates a bias towards leaving the seat down in the morning, and up in
the evening.

So, it isn't simple at all.

[1] I'm ignoring other possible deposits, for now.

Mark
--
Please take a short survey on salary perceptions: http://meyu.eu/am
My blog: http://mark.goodge.co.uk

[Alan]

You're also ignoring the possibility that all the men in the house sit
down as well :-)

>
> Mark

[Alan]

On Tue, 13 Aug 2013 13:42:42 +0100, Gropius Riftwynde <rers...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Well the social thing is to to put the lid down before flushing, as a fine
spray, possibly containing bacteria, goes everywhere. So presumably that
means putting the seat down as well.....

[Gropius Riftwynde]

> Your on-line name is so familar it came as no surprise to me to see it
>
> here on cam.misc - which probably shows how unobservant I have been in
>
> not realising you had been absent!
>
>
>
> Michael

Only for about 10 years or so.

Gropy

[Gropius Riftwynde]

This is classic cam.misc at its finest. Thank you, Mark.

Gropy

[Mark Goodge]

On Tue, 13 Aug 2013 22:37:52 +0100, Alan put finger to keyboard and typed:

>On Tue, 13 Aug 2013 13:42:42 +0100, Gropius Riftwynde <rers...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>> I have not been on cam.misc for a very long time, and it seems to have
>> changed mainly into a lost & found & wanted group. Am I mistaken? I hope
>> so. There always used to be mathematicians and others around who could
>> answer questions such as "Is it more sociable to leave a loo seat up or
>> down?"
>
>Well the social thing is to to put the lid down before flushing, as a fine
>spray, possibly containing bacteria, goes everywhere. So presumably that
>means putting the seat down as well.....

This is, actually, probably the closest there is to a universally "correct"
solution. The default position, when not in use, should be for both seat
and lid to be closed. Each user should then lift the lid, and seat if
required, before using it, and then close both again before flushing.
Having flushed, they then leave the lid down. People simply need to get
used to the fact that you have to open a bowl toilet before using it
(urinals are, of course, a different matter), and therefore not care about
the position of the seat.

[Roland Perry]

In message <ui5l095n9f3lr2ghg...@news.markshouse.net>, at
21:58:04 on Tue, 13 Aug 2013, Mark Goodge
<use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> remarked:

>The question is not "which option minimises the number of seat
>movements?", it's "which option is more sociable?".

The most sociable is seat down & lid down, as it improves the view and
minimises the possibilities for dropping things in by accident.

The most hygienic is leaving them where they are; because putting them
up/down before you've washed your hands risks contaminating them, and
putting them down after you've washed your hands mean you need to wash
them a second time.
--
Roland Perry

[Lyndsay]

I always keep the seats and lids down, as kittens had a habit of balancing on seat to drink the water.
I didn't want to risk them falling in.
Lyn

[Brian L Johnson]

Phil W Lee <ph...@lee-family.me.uk> wrote:

> If there are small boys in the house, you ALWAYS leave the seat up,
> because you know for a fact that they will not raise it, or clean up
> the consequences.

I've always been puzzled why we don't train boys to use the toilet sitting
down at all times.

We (our household, 1 male & 1 female) all use the toilet sitting. The
cover goes up before and down after use.

After visiting male guests have left, we generally have to wash down the
walls, floor, bowl (top & sides) to be assured that we don't have 'yellow
dots' everywhere. Of the two males I've asked neither would dream of
using a dab of toilet tissue to substitute for a Gentleman's Shake.

--
brianlj

[rcp...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, 14 August 2013 00:30:37 UTC+2, Gropius Riftwynde wrote:
> > Your on-line name is so familar it came as no surprise to me to see it
> > here on cam.misc - which probably shows how unobservant I have been in
> >
> > not realising you had been absent!
>

> Only for about 10 years or so.

Having the same reaction as the OP, I find it astonishing to believe that it really is 10 years (and more astonishing to believe that I have been following cam.misc for that long).

Robin

[Brian L Johnson]

Brian Morrison <ne...@fenrir.org.uk> wrote:

> Within the last year or two I recall reading an article about how
> urinating while seated is beneficial for men in that it empties the
> bladder more effectively and helps to maintain bladder function into
> old age. I forget the source of this article though.

Sitting down to pee is good for my knees; I don't have to get down on them
so often to clean the floor!

--
brianlj

[Fevric J. Glandules]

Jon Green wrote:

> On 13/08/2013 14:08, Gropius Riftwynde wrote:
>> Certainly not. I do not wish to discuss cam cyclists. Or windfarms. But I do see many familiar names, such as Paul Oldham, Douglas de Lacy, Roland Perry, The Natural Philosopher, Time Ward, and ... OMG don't say Alan Truelove is still posting. Haven't they euthaniazed him yet?
>
> No, he has not yet been put out of our misery.

He continues to fill a much-needed hole in The Pedantry.

[Fevric J. Glandules]

Alan wrote:

<snip much quoted material>

> You're also ignoring the possibility that all the men in the house sit
> down as well :-)

I once stayed in a flat in Berlin where that was the House Rule.

Oh yes - for the convenience of the next poster, please snip
excessive quoted material. Which somehow seems related.

[Fevric J. Glandules]

rcp...@gmail.com wrote:

> On Wednesday, 14 August 2013 00:30:37 UTC+2, Gropius Riftwynde wrote:
>> > Your on-line name is so familar it came as no surprise to me to see it
>> > here on cam.misc - which probably shows how unobservant I have been in
>> >
>> > not realising you had been absent!
>>
>> Only for about 10 years or so.
>
> Having the same reaction as the OP, I find it astonishing to believe that it really is 10 years

Same here.

> (and more astonishing to believe that I have been following cam.misc
for that long).

Are we not just coming up to the 20th anniversary of the September
That Never Ended?

[Fevric J. Glandules]

Mark Goodge wrote:

> On Tue, 13 Aug 2013 22:37:52 +0100, Alan put finger to keyboard and typed:
>

>>Well the social thing is to to put the lid down before flushing, as a fine
>>spray, possibly containing bacteria, goes everywhere. So presumably that
>>means putting the seat down as well.....
>
> This is, actually, probably the closest there is to a universally "correct"
> solution.

A bit of faecal spray does the immune system good...

possibly.

[Duncan Wood]

& fairly standard on yachts.

[rosen...@cix.compulink.co.uk]

In article <20130815112...@surtees.fenrir.org.uk>,

ne...@fenrir.org.uk (Brian Morrison) wrote:

> Within the last year or two I recall reading an article about how
> urinating while seated is beneficial for men in that it empties the
> bladder more effectively and helps to maintain bladder function into
> old age. I forget the source of this article though.

That is not true for all men.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

[Roland Perry]

In message <kuje6d$v1a$1...@dont-email.me>, at 20:37:33 on Thu, 15 Aug
2013, Fevric J. Glandules <f...@invalid.invalid> remarked:

>Are we not just coming up to the 20th anniversary of the September
>That Never Ended?

Also known as the "Eternal September", and it was in 1993, so yes we
are.

--
Roland Perry