Time to switch energy suppliers

[Tim Ward]

My current energy supplier is enforcing a move from quarterly billing to
monthly billing whether I like it or not, and I CBA with doing three
times as much paperwork, so time to move on.

It looks like I have a choice of

(1) work through dozens of energy supplier web sites, trying to find the
small print on each one, which will be hidden in various different places

(2) the same but dozens of price comparison sites, all of which want all
my data and an email address to spam me with, and think I only care
about price and won't filter on any other criteria.

All I want is a list of companies that do

* quarterly billing against meter readings
* green electricity

but I can't find one anywhere.

If I've got more than one to choose from then, OK, I'll accept that I'll
have to do a bit of work to research my next criterion

* customer service quality (eg, sending bills that are actually correct)

My only experience of switching energy suppliers in the past has been
having a supplier switched under my feet without my knowledge or
consent, and

(a) in one case taking TWO F**KING YEARS to get back to the original
supplier and get them to send me a correct bill

(b) in the other case several (I didn't count) years of hassle from debt
collectors trying to collect money I didn't owe the supplier I'd never
signed up with in the first place (they gave up in the end, having spent
far more than the amount they were trying to collect).

So, I'm not exactly experienced in hassle-free switching of energy
suppliers.

Any recommendations?

--
Tim Ward - 07801 703 600
www.brettward.co.uk

[Peter]

Tim Ward wrote:
> My current energy supplier

That is?

The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here
Abraham Lincoln at Gettysburg

[Paul Bird]

On 24/06/2021 23:49, Tim Ward wrote:
> My current energy supplier is enforcing a move from quarterly billing to
> monthly billing whether I like it or not, and I CBA with doing three
> times as much paperwork, so time to move on.

> Any recommendations?

We moved to Pure Planet because it's one of two green alternatives,
however you may not like "As with most suppliers, we take your monthly
payment in advance". Can't remember what the other supplier was, their
website was so bad we avoided them entirely.

PB

[Tim Ward]

On 25/06/2021 00:01, Peter wrote:
> Tim Ward wrote:
>> My current energy supplier
>
> That is?

e.on

[Tim Ward]

On 25/06/2021 06:35, Paul Bird wrote:
> On 24/06/2021 23:49, Tim Ward wrote:
>> My current energy supplier is enforcing a move from quarterly billing
>> to monthly billing whether I like it or not, and I CBA with doing
>> three times as much paperwork, so time to move on.
>
>> Any recommendations?
>
> We moved to Pure Planet because it's one of two green alternatives,
> however you may not like "As with most suppliers, we take your monthly
> payment in advance".

As my entire motivation for switching is to avoid monthly paperwork ...

So thanks for the warning, that's one not to bother to look at.

[Alfred]

Paul Bird <pa...@nospamcamtutor.co.uk> wrote:
> We moved to Pure Planet because it's one of two green alternatives,
> however you may not like "As with most suppliers, we take your monthly
> payment in advance". Can't remember what the other supplier was, their
> website was so bad we avoided them entirely.

Do you mean ecotricity? I have that company myself and the website is
not bad. It's a simple website that works allright.

https://www.ecotricity.co.uk

They don't do quarterly billing as the OP asks, but if you set up a
direct debit that's not a hassle.

From my last bill in ecotricity:

electricity: standing charge £10 per month, £0.22/kWh
gas: standing charge £9 per month, £0.05/kWh

Their gas is likely cheaper than Pure Planet, as they don't do clean gas.
The environmental friendliness of clean gas is dubious anyway, as one
needs to take into account how the hydrogen is produced.

They were very efficient with the switching BTW. My former energy
supplier made a "mistake" giving an incorrect serial number for the
electricity meter and they fixed the former supplier mistake quickly.

[Tim Ward]

On 25/06/2021 08:51, Alfred wrote:
>
> They don't do quarterly billing as the OP asks, but if you set up a
> direct debit that's not a hassle.

Yes it is! It's three times as many transactions to enter into my
accounting system! That's the whole point!

[Alan]

On Thu, 24 Jun 2021 23:49:19 +0100, Tim Ward <t...@brettward.co.uk> wrote:


>
> (2) the same but dozens of price comparison sites, all of which want all
> my data and an email address to spam me with, and think I only care
> about price and won't filter on any other criteria.
>

You seem to have your own domain - can you not do what I do and create
supplier specific, or temporary email addresses which you can easily throw
away if attracting SPAM? Most of my emails are ISP based aliases which
redirect to my main mailbox, so don't involve having to check many boxes.

>
> Any recommendations?
>

British Gas do Quarterly Direct Debit and have so called Green Tarriffs.

--
Alan

Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

[Theo]

Alan <eternal....@ourmailbox.org.uk> wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Jun 2021 23:49:19 +0100, Tim Ward <t...@brettward.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
> >
> > (2) the same but dozens of price comparison sites, all of which want all
> > my data and an email address to spam me with, and think I only care
> > about price and won't filter on any other criteria.
> >
>
> You seem to have your own domain - can you not do what I do and create
> supplier specific, or temporary email addresses which you can easily throw
> away if attracting SPAM? Most of my emails are ISP based aliases which
> redirect to my main mailbox, so don't involve having to check many boxes.

Just fill in junk data to these forms. Electricity and gas are priced
regionally, so they only want your postcode to work out what region you're
in. Some also use it to work out what type of meter you're on (Economy 7
or not), and Moneysupermarket manages to find out your last year's
consumption (which you can edit).

So just pick a random address until you get the right kind of meter.
And then fill in a junk email address, eg <whatever>@mailinator.com
(which you can access via the web if needed)

Then when you've decided where to go, sign up with the supplier directly
with your genuine details.

> British Gas do Quarterly Direct Debit and have so called Green Tarriffs.

I think the legacy providers are probably the few that do quarterly billing
- almost everyone else is monthly direct debit (although some bill based on
consumption rather than arbitrary monthly payment amounts).

Theo

[Alfred]

> British Gas do Quarterly Direct Debit and have so called Green Tarriffs.

I wouldn't expect much honesty from British Gas. I don't know their
energy supply contracts, but what I have seen with their boiler
maintenance contracts is appalling. They sell customers a smart
thermostat (for £230), and if you get out of their boiler mainteinance
contract the smart thermostat stops working.

In general they are constatly pushing customers for upgrades, trying
to sell them things, locking them up.

[Alan]

I think we were just looking for fuel suppliers that did Quarterly billing.

[Alfred]

Alan <eternal....@ourmailbox.org.uk> wrote:
> I think we were just looking for fuel suppliers that did Quarterly billing.

The OP is also asking for "customer service quality" and (to my own
interpretation of the OP) honesty. In the case of British Gas they are
going to get extremely annoying trying to lock you down with long term
supply contracts or selling you things like gas mainteinance contracts or
boilers.

[Mark Goodge]

On Fri, 25 Jun 2021 09:05:32 +0100, Tim Ward <t...@brettward.co.uk>
wrote:

>On 25/06/2021 08:51, Alfred wrote:
>>
>> They don't do quarterly billing as the OP asks, but if you set up a
>> direct debit that's not a hassle.
>
>Yes it is! It's three times as many transactions to enter into my
>accounting system! That's the whole point!

Is one additional transaction two months out of three really that much
additional work? How many transactions do you normally have on your
current account in a typical month?

Also, does your bank not give you the export transactions in csv or some
other useful format, so that you can then import them into your finance
software with a couple of clicks? If not, then I'd suggest that it's
your bank you should be considering changing, not your energy supplier.

Mark

[Alan]

Everyones experience differs. I have either twelve or twenty fours month
contracts with them and just ignore any bumph that comes through the
door. It's nothing major.

[Mark Carroll]

On 25 Jun 2021, Tim Ward wrote:
(snip)

> As my entire motivation for switching is to avoid monthly paperwork ...
>
> So thanks for the warning, that's one not to bother to look at.

Good luck with this one. I wish it were easier to filter by such
criteria. I don't have any left for you on my fallback list, especially
given the quarterly billing requirement.

Sure, maybe I'm an idiosyncratic curmudgeon. I can live with monthly
billing because so much else is monthly anyway but I would look for
"green energy available", "basic administrative competence", "not direct
debit", and "not paperless billing" and just those already cut down the
options in ways it wasn't trivial to determine.

I'd relax about paperless billing if people would stop asking me for
paper bills and statements as proof of address. Banks are outstandingly
hypocritical in this regard.

-- Mark

[Alan]

On Fri, 25 Jun 2021 12:24:26 +0100, Mark Carroll <mt...@kings.cantab.net>
wrote:

> I'd relax about paperless billing if people would stop asking me for
> paper bills and statements as proof of address. Banks are outstandingly
> hypocritical in this regard.
>

I've never had anyone question a paperless bill I've downloaded and
printed myself, including recent house purchase and NHS DBS check.

[Paul Bird]

On 25/06/2021 08:51, Alfred wrote:

> Paul Bird <pa...@nospamcamtutor.co.uk> wrote:
>> We moved to Pure Planet because it's one of two green alternatives,
>> however you may not like "As with most suppliers, we take your monthly
>> payment in advance". Can't remember what the other supplier was, their
>> website was so bad we avoided them entirely.
>
> Do you mean ecotricity? I have that company myself and the website is
> not bad. It's a simple website that works allright.

No. It was these people https://www.so.energy/

[Peter]

Tim Ward wrote:
> On 25/06/2021 00:01, Peter wrote:
>> Tim Ward wrote:
>>> My current energy supplier
>>
>> That is?
>
> e.on
>
>

I wondered if it was. I, too, use e.on and have received letters
telling me of forthcoming changes, but they have not said what the
changes are to be!

[Tim Ward]

On 25/06/2021 12:24, Mark Carroll wrote:
>
> I'd relax about paperless billing if people would stop asking me for
> paper bills and statements as proof of address. Banks are outstandingly
> hypocritical in this regard.

I just download the PDFs and print them.

[Tim Ward]

On 25/06/2021 12:02, Mark Goodge wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Jun 2021 09:05:32 +0100, Tim Ward <t...@brettward.co.uk>
>

> Also, does your bank not give you the export transactions in csv or
> some other useful format, so that you can then import them into your
> finance software with a couple of clicks?

That's not doing a reconciliation to verify the bank statement, that's
just trusting that the bank statement is right regardless! If you're
just going to do that why bother with your own accounting system?

[Tim Ward]

On 25/06/2021 09:30, Alan wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Jun 2021 23:49:19 +0100, Tim Ward <t...@brettward.co.uk>
> wrote:
>>
>> (2) the same but dozens of price comparison sites, all of which
>> want all my data and an email address to spam me with, and think I
>> only care about price and won't filter on any other criteria.
>
> You seem to have your own domain - can you not do what I do and
> create supplier specific, or temporary email addresses which you can
> easily throw away if attracting SPAM? Most of my emails are ISP
> based aliases which redirect to my main mailbox, so don't involve
> having to check many boxes.

Yeah, I could, but I'm lazy.

>> Any recommendations?
>
> British Gas do Quarterly Direct Debit and have so called Green
> Tarriffs.

Ta. I'll check them out. I forget why I stopped using them decades ago,
so it can't have been that bad.

[Tim Ward]

On 25/06/2021 09:50, Alfred wrote:
>> British Gas do Quarterly Direct Debit and have so called Green Tarriffs.
>
> I wouldn't expect much honesty from British Gas. I don't know their
> energy supply contracts, but what I have seen with their boiler
> maintenance contracts is appalling.

Yes, those are a rip-off, do not touch.

[Mark Carroll]

On 25 Jun 2021, Alan wrote:

> On Fri, 25 Jun 2021 12:24:26 +0100, Mark Carroll <mt...@kings.cantab.net>
> wrote:
>
>> I'd relax about paperless billing if people would stop asking me for
>> paper bills and statements as proof of address. Banks are outstandingly
>> hypocritical in this regard.
>
> I've never had anyone question a paperless bill I've downloaded and
> printed myself, including recent house purchase and NHS DBS check.

I've been told plenty of times up front that such would be unacceptable,
including the most recent time I had to provide much, though I may be
colored by also having had to deal with immigration authorities plenty
over the past couple of decades, who maybe could be pickier than many.
E.g., the Home Office (or Border Force or whoever it is now) can want
both the original payslips and the original bank statements with the
matching deposits. Generally the problem is that it says explicitly that
simple printouts of online documents are unacceptable or, in some other
non-bill cases, that the document must bear the original signatures.

It may also be that, had I tried it on, I would have gotten away with
it, there was a time last year (though in the US, not England) where it
seemed that what I had didn't meet their stated requirements but I got
it past the clerk anyway, which is great because not doing so could have
been a real pain so that's why I made the attempt. Perhaps my real
problem is reading the instructions carefully and trying to follow them!
After all, the colour laser printer I have at home now prints far more
nicely than the bills one of my past UK energy suppliers used to post to
me, perhaps people would have just assumed it wasn't a home printout and
taken it.

(It's also possible that some rules have said that a notarized printout
might be okay but I ignored that because it's generally easier to pay
for a special paper version than to go get my printout officially
authenticated as a true copy.)

I've never had an NHS DBS check but I did have my regular NHS medical
card denied as proof of address, that delayed a bank account opening by
a few more weeks. It's possible that my ordinary professional life stuff
just hasn't tended to generate much in the way of extra proofs. I mean,
my BCS professional membership card is, well, I don't think I've used it
for anything ever. Proof of ID is generally easy, it's always recent
proof of address that's my issue. Especially, a problem with moving
house is that the relevant monthly statements or whatever with the
required (new) address may have not turned up by the time one needs
them!

This has been made doubly annoying by various parts of HMG (or its
private contractors) demanding original documents then losing them or
denying that they were ever provided. But that's a whole other rant!
(In my limited experience, it's only ever HMG that loses documents,
except sometimes they turn up weeks later, at least they then admit it
and reunite them with the rest of the file.) These days, when I order
birth certificates or whatever, I always get a few copies, anticipating
attrition.

-- Mark

[Mark Carroll]

On 25 Jun 2021, Tim Ward wrote:

> On 25/06/2021 12:24, Mark Carroll wrote:
>>
>> I'd relax about paperless billing if people would stop asking me for
>> paper bills and statements as proof of address. Banks are outstandingly
>> hypocritical in this regard.
>
> I just download the PDFs and print them.

Heh, so, the first one online I happen to check -

https://www.nationwide.co.uk/support/support-articles/manage-your-account/proving-your-identity

] ... we are not able to accept statements or bills printed from the
] internet.

Perhaps my problem for all these years has been that I simply tried to
read and follow the instructions? (-: But, definitely, if you don't
accept statements printed from the internet then stop pushing me to go
paperless!

-- Mark

[Alan]

On Fri, 25 Jun 2021 14:08:55 +0100, Mark Carroll <mt...@kings.cantab.net>

wrote:

> On 25 Jun 2021, Alan wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 25 Jun 2021 12:24:26 +0100, Mark Carroll <mt...@kings.cantab.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I'd relax about paperless billing if people would stop asking me for
>>> paper bills and statements as proof of address. Banks are outstandingly
>>> hypocritical in this regard.
>>
>> I've never had anyone question a paperless bill I've downloaded and
>> printed myself, including recent house purchase and NHS DBS check.
>
> I've been told plenty of times up front that such would be unacceptable,

> After all, the colour laser printer I have at home now prints far more
> nicely than the bills one of my past UK energy suppliers used to post to
> me, perhaps people would have just assumed it wasn't a home printout and
> taken it.
>

TBH I would expect that most home printed PDFs are no better nor no worse
than the providers' posted these copy days.

[Mark Carroll]

On 25 Jun 2021, Alan wrote:

> TBH I would expect that most home printed PDFs are no better nor no worse
> than the providers' posted these copy days.

Heh, one of the things I felt lucky to squeak by with last year was that
car insurance documents were considered valid proof of address but the
ones I had in hand after moving weren't the ones posted to me, which
takes weeks, just the immediate stand-ins that the insurance agent ran
off on their branch office's unimpressive inkjet but, then, at least I
could look at the clerk in the eye and honestly say I hadn't just
printed them at home from the website. With bills I guess I was figuring
they'd spot a lack of perforation for tearing off the payment slip but,
yeah, maybe bank statements are just about indistinguishable.

I'd always thought that about the proofs for company expenses claims,
it's not that hard to pick up a little thermal roll printer on eBay.
Reminds me of a friend who appeared to eat a lot of fish on the business
trip that featured a bar that sold beer named for a fish.

-- Mark

[Roland Perry]

In message <87zgvex...@ixod.org>, at 09:37:41 on Fri, 25 Jun 2021,
Mark Carroll <mt...@kings.cantab.net> remarked:

Bass?
--
Roland Perry

[Theo]

Mark Carroll <mt...@kings.cantab.net> wrote:
> Heh, so, the first one online I happen to check -
>
> https://www.nationwide.co.uk/support/support-articles/manage-your-account/proving-your-identity
>
> ] ... we are not able to accept statements or bills printed from the
> ] internet.
>
> Perhaps my problem for all these years has been that I simply tried to
> read and follow the instructions? (-: But, definitely, if you don't
> accept statements printed from the internet then stop pushing me to go
> paperless!

I think if you go into a branch (remember them?) and ask for a printed
statement they will print one off the computer. Then it's definitely not
printed off the internet! It also might look it's been printed off the
mainframe rather than a fancy PDF.

(they may charge you £10 or something for this process though)

Theo

[Tim Ward]

On 25/06/2021 14:14, Mark Carroll wrote:
> On 25 Jun 2021, Tim Ward wrote:
>
>> On 25/06/2021 12:24, Mark Carroll wrote:
>>>
>>> I'd relax about paperless billing if people would stop asking me for
>>> paper bills and statements as proof of address. Banks are outstandingly
>>> hypocritical in this regard.
>>
>> I just download the PDFs and print them.
>
> Heh, so, the first one online I happen to check -
>
> https://www.nationwide.co.uk/support/support-articles/manage-your-account/proving-your-identity
>
> ] ... we are not able to accept statements or bills printed from the
> ] internet.

How would they know? In either case it's a print-out of a PDF, how do
they know where the printer was? If you're paranoid you could fold it in
thirds to make it look like it came in the post.

[Mark Carroll]

On 25 Jun 2021, Roland Perry wrote:
(snip)

>>I'd always thought that about the proofs for company expenses claims,
>>it's not that hard to pick up a little thermal roll printer on eBay.
>>Reminds me of a friend who appeared to eat a lot of fish on the business
>>trip that featured a bar that sold beer named for a fish.
>
> Bass?

Oh, I didn't think of that! No, it was something rather odder, a couple
of polysyllabic words perhaps; I hazily recall it was in foreign climes
with sun and ocean. These academic conferences are cleverly sited. (-:

-- Mark

[Mark Carroll]

On 25 Jun 2021, Tim Ward wrote:

> How would they know? In either case it's a print-out of a PDF, how do
> they know where the printer was? If you're paranoid you could fold it in
> thirds to make it look like it came in the post.

Yeah, I may just have been way more honest that was reasonable.
But that's why I've insisted on paper statements, anyway.

-- Mark

[Tim Ward]

On 25/06/2021 15:27, Mark Carroll wrote:
>
> But that's why I've insisted on paper statements, anyway.

I'm quite happy wit PDF rather than paper. But I do wish they'd just
email you the PDFs, rather than make you faff around with passwords and
crap in order to log in to a web page to get the PDF.

[Mark Goodge]

On Fri, 25 Jun 2021 14:02:12 +0100, Tim Ward <t...@brettward.co.uk>
wrote:

Bank errors are remarkably rare, and usually obvious on a personal
current account when they do happen without the need for a formal
reconciliation process.

The main reason for exporting data from my bank account is to aid the
preparation of my tax return. Some people also like to consolidate all
their account data (bank, card, etc) into a single system so that it's
easier to keep a track of weekly and monthly spending.

Mark

[Mark Carroll]

On 25 Jun 2021, Theo wrote:
(snip)

> I think if you go into a branch (remember them?) and ask for a printed
> statement they will print one off the computer.

They will. Though, yeah, they keep closing. For my remaining UK current
account, of course they since closed the branch closest to where I
worked when I chose that bank. People typically want recent proofs from
a couple of different sources, too. With UK banks and building
societies, one thing that means I cross increasingly many off my list is
they stop offering even absurdly delayed deposit of USD-denominated
cheques drawn on US banks or the US Treasury itself. Years ago, a high
fraction of them could handle it, even random domestic ones like TSB and
Nationwide, now I'd probably have to go to Lloyds or somesuch.

I've wondered why banks cite cost in branch maintenance when they insist
on having big shiny places, no wonder they can't afford many branches
then. Though, no point pushing online banking on me when I keep having
to do things they do insist one comes into a branch for, though
admittedly I didn't have to come in just to change my mobile telephone
number so that was something. I don't care what the branch /looks/ like
though, just like in Dundee I knew I could get a good deal on leasing a
new car from a guy who could afford to do that because his business was
run from an industrial unit at the end of a row rather than from a
glittering retail showroom.

(snip)

> (they may charge you £10 or something for this process though)

Per statement or something, yes.

(More of an issue with the immigration-related stuff where they may want
to see many examples to show the pattern.)

-- Mark

[Mark Carroll]

On 25 Jun 2021, Tim Ward wrote:

> I'm quite happy wit PDF rather than paper. But I do wish they'd just
> email you the PDFs, rather than make you faff around with passwords and
> crap in order to log in to a web page to get the PDF.

Ha, I did that just a few minutes ago, I got the e-mail with the link to
the login form for the system that will give me the PDF. Sigh.

-- Mark

[Theo]

Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Jun 2021 14:02:12 +0100, Tim Ward <t...@brettward.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
> >That's not doing a reconciliation to verify the bank statement, that's
> >just trusting that the bank statement is right regardless! If you're
> >just going to do that why bother with your own accounting system?
>
> Bank errors are remarkably rare, and usually obvious on a personal
> current account when they do happen without the need for a formal
> reconciliation process.

I think most of the issues are likely to be transactions that you made that
didn't show up (eg card payments or uncashed cheques), or mistakes eg
somebody paying money into your account not theirs. The latter would show
up with a cursory glance at your statement, the former wouldn't.

It's more likely for missing transactions to be payments out rather than
payments in (unless you're a business and bill people regularly), and lack
of payments out is mainly a problem if you're in the habit of having
approximately £0 in your account when you would be surprised if they turned
up later.

(I'm assuming you would notice lack of £1000 transactions but maybe not £10
ones)

I wonder how many errors Tim finds when doing his reconciliation?

Theo

[Tim Ward]

On 25/06/2021 15:41, Mark Goodge wrote:
>
> Bank errors are remarkably rare

However fraudulent transactions on credit card statements only count as
"quite uncommon" rather than "remarkably rare".

Also "quite uncommon" rather than "remarkably rare" is people somehow
managing to "forget" to pay you refunds that you're due.

If I just downloaded the transactions rather than comparing my own
version against the statement

(a) I'd be pay the fraudsters
(b) I'd be failing to notice and follow up the missing refunds.

I don't download transactions, I reconcile them.

[Mark Carroll]

On 25 Jun 2021, Tim Ward wrote:

(snip)

> If I just downloaded the transactions rather than comparing my own
> version against the statement
>
> (a) I'd be pay the fraudsters
> (b) I'd be failing to notice and follow up the missing refunds.
>
> I don't download transactions, I reconcile them.

Absolutely. Admittedly, I've seen very few instances of actual banking
errors, and credit card fraud rather less than annually (and obvious
when it did happen), sometimes more commonly charges not being what I
expected so I would query them accordingly to learn the actual rules.
The latest was on a US account where their "free wires" turned out to
apply only to outgoing ones, not incoming.

My mother was a book-keeper, even the household accounts were full
double-entry, as a child I was already helping her with the
cross-casting and suchlike and, in her last days, the best way to cheer
her up was to sort her latest bills and statements into the correct
lever arch files, so it just feels /right/ to track all this oneself
properly. And, goodness, her excellent filing and noting helped a lot
when I had to settle her affairs after she passed: I knew exactly who
owed what to whom.

I don't go as far as checking the correctness of interest payment
calculations, though I also can't rely on end-of-year summaries because
I'm reporting to tax authorities on different year ends so the
individual entries need to go into the system anyway but, even for
minimal self-employment as a sole trader on the side, I've always opted
for accrual rather than cash basis because that feels to me to keep
track of things best, things that go awry can be written off to bad
debts to add to the losses or whatever if need be, and in reconciliation
it's easy enough to mark things off as the posted statements match one's
own records so the anomalies end up in the spotlight. Though, I do
recall as a child being intrigued by the algorithmic problem of: here's
the paid total, what combination of invoices do they cover?

-- Mark

[Mark Carroll]

I now realize it's probably worth adding as background that I place
plenty of value on having conscious awareness of these things. If I am
manually reconciling statements, issuing payments, etc., then, though
it's quick and easy work, it means that I have an ongoing awareness of
what's going on. If I left it all to be automatic and just glanced at
summaries occasionally, I could easily not notice for some time if
things were not as I'd thought. Well, that's just a brief followup to
myself, anyway!

-- Mark

[Tim Ward]

On 25/06/2021 15:55, Theo wrote:
>
> I wonder how many errors Tim finds when doing his reconciliation?

I haven't counted. Not very many. Most recently, a few months ago now,
was a refund of around £100 from Amazon which didn't turn up until I
noticed it was missing and nagged. Whether that £100 paid for the time
I'd spent on keeping accounts since whenever the previous incident was
is, I guess, a matter of taste - it's more risk reduction, it's that if
there *were* errors or frauds I *would* spot them.

There was a time a few years ago when I had a rash of credit card
frauds. All small amounts, possibly because I caught the trial thefts
and told the credit card company about them, so maybe there would have
been larger ones if I hadn't been checking. One hopes that the fraud
detection is better these days. (DoI: I currently work for a fraud
detection company.)

[Roland Perry]

In message <sb4opb$30v$2...@dont-email.me>, at 15:21:24 on Fri, 25 Jun
2021, Tim Ward <t...@brettward.co.uk> remarked:

Almost all bills that arrive in the post are only folded in half.
--
Roland Perry

[Vir Campestris]

On 25/06/2021 13:15, Peter wrote:
> Tim Ward wrote:
>> On 25/06/2021 00:01, Peter wrote:
>>> Tim Ward wrote:
>>>> My current energy supplier
>>>
>>> That is?
>>
>> e.on
>>
>>
> I wondered if it was.  I, too, use e.on and have received letters
> telling me of forthcoming changes, but they have not said what the
> changes are to be!
>

<fx light dawns> So that's why I've had emails about my direct debit...

.. which they'll have trouble collecting as we haven't set one up :)

Andy

[Fevric J. Glandules]

Tim Ward wrote:

> On 25/06/2021 00:01, Peter wrote:
>> Tim Ward wrote:
>>> My current energy supplier
>>
>> That is?
>
> e.on

Oof. Friend of mine has a 1960s vintage electricity meter -
complete with contra-rotating needles. She'd not supplied
a meter reading for some time earlier this year so she did.

She asked for advice on how to read the thing - "the nearest
number" she was apparently told. So she submitted 99xxx rather
than 88xxx and got hit with a 2K bill. To begin with she
accepted it. Then at the urging of some friends of hers she
asked me to look at the meter reading. I worked it out.

She then went through enormous hassle to try and correct the
error - eventually sorted. I remarked that I was surprised
she hadn't received a visit from Plod. It was always my
understanding that if the electricity companies got a reading
that indicated that a house was consuming way more than normal
(I did the calcs - in this case about seven times more than
previously!) it got reported as a possible case of illegal
horticulture. (I suppose these days you might have a rack
of bitcoin miners).

But it really got me wondering - just how wrong a meter reading
does it have to be before the system queries it?

FWIW I am with Bulb - one of the cheapest, 100% green electrons,
but monthly direct debit. In terms of accounting, the bank
statement gets downloaded as a CSV and imported into a spreadsheet.

[Brian Morrison]

On Fri, 25 Jun 2021 23:19:18 -0000 (UTC), Fevric J. Glandules wrote:

> 100% green electrons

What exactly are these 'green' electrons?

--

Brian

[Mark Carroll]

The ones you shoot at the CRT screen from the gun at the back to make
verdant television scenes.

-- Mark

[Roland Perry]

In message <pan$39ee3$bd784951$e14ff5fb$40e6...@fenrir.org.uk>, at
23:24:23 on Fri, 25 Jun 2021, Brian Morrison <b...@fenrir.org.uk>
remarked:

>On Fri, 25 Jun 2021 23:19:18 -0000 (UTC), Fevric J. Glandules wrote:
>
>> 100% green electrons
>
>What exactly are these 'green' electrons?

It's "sustainable" electricity that they cream off (by accountancy not
engineering) the available generating[1] capacity, so that that other
firm's customers have to supply a more non-green mix of electricity.

[1] That's not just ours, but that imported from the EU.

--
Roland Perry

[Tim Ward]

On 26/06/2021 06:12, Roland Perry wrote:
>
> It's "sustainable" electricity that they cream off (by accountancy not
> engineering) the available generating[1] capacity, so that that other
> firm's customers have to supply a more non-green mix of electricity.

This is true, but the theory is that if enough people buy "green"
electricity there won't be enough to go around, so the price will go up,
so generators will find it more profitable to invest in more capacity.

[Mark Carroll]

On 26 Jun 2021, Tim Ward wrote:

> This is true, but the theory is that if enough people buy "green"
> electricity there won't be enough to go around, so the price will go up,
> so generators will find it more profitable to invest in more capacity.

Also, providers like Ecotricity do increasingly much of their own
generation, which may be why they're hardly among the cheapest.

-- Mark

[Alan]

If this is the case, won't there be oversupply of the red electricity (or
what ever colour it is), so its price will come down, and people without
the spare income will move back to it? Or will it be reliant on
Government intervention to keep the price high?

[Tim Ward]

Yes, that sort of thing. (I have had some training in how the
electricity markets work - it's immensely complicated.)

[tony sayer]

In article <sb5o9m$212$1...@dont-email.me>, Fevric J. Glandules
<f...@invalid.invalid> scribeth thus

Total cobblers Greenwash electrons!..

If we refer to TNP's excellent Gridwatch site there are times of sod all
wind and Solar and bugger all Hydro, so one supposes the electrons from
gassy or coal sources are dyed Green then;?...


http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/


--
Tony Sayer


Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Actually the way it happens is that they will buy units from Drax
(biomass) and French hydro.

Or French nuclear.

Which is called 'zero carbon', not 'renewable'

--
“Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.”

H.L. Mencken, A Mencken Chrestomathy

[Theo]

tony sayer <to...@bancom.co.uk> wrote:
> Total cobblers Greenwash electrons!..
>
> If we refer to TNP's excellent Gridwatch site there are times of sod all
> wind and Solar and bugger all Hydro, so one supposes the electrons from
> gassy or coal sources are dyed Green then;?...

Electricity is billed on a monthly (or more) basis. Unless you have a smart
meter and have enabled half-hourly meter readings, your energy company
doesn't know when you consumed your kWh. They only know your monthly
consumption, and the need to source enough kWh to meet it.

Meanwhile there's a half-hourly wholesale spot market for electricity, but
the energy companies are mostly not playing there - they're buying futures
contracts to cover their customers' needs for the next 12 months. If you
switch to a green tariff you supplier buys a futures contract for 'green'
electricity to cover your kWh needs (there is a separate futures market for
this).

The grid operators obviously have sight of the day-to-day usage and cover
for peaks and troughs to ensure grid stability. They can call for reserve
generation (ie gas or hydro). That's priced into the tariff you pay.

So it's too simplistic to say 'where is the green electricity when the wind
doesn't blow and the sun doesn't shine', because that is not what is being
sold to you on a 'green' tariff. It is simply aggregate kWh in over the
year against aggregate kWh out, and stability is something your unit cost is
paying for separately. Only about 50% of your unit tariff is going on
wholesale generation, the rest is other things. A green tariff is better
than one where your units all come from coal, but it is not zero carbon.

Theo

[Roland Perry]

In message <sb6uhk$ram$2...@dont-email.me>, at 11:12:04 on Sat, 26 Jun
2021, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> remarked:

>Or French nuclear.
>
>Which is called 'zero carbon', not 'renewable'

Despite the enormous carbon footprint of building the plants, and
decommissioning them later.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <uXB*ia...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 11:23:28 on Sat,
26 Jun 2021, Theo <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:

>it's too simplistic to say 'where is the green electricity when the wind
>doesn't blow and the sun doesn't shine', because that is not what is being
>sold to you on a 'green' tariff.

Nevertheless it's what's sold to customers of organisations who claim
the green credentials. ISTR the CoOp saying all their shops were powered
by wind-generated electricity. How does that work on calm days?

They are not the only offender, our local Sainsbury's claims it has some
energy-saving greenwash that's equivalent to every kettle boiled in the
town (look on the bright side - it's not how many double deckers you can
fit on a football pitch the size of Wales), but we don't own an electric
kettle, preferring to have one on the gas hob (not least because that
still works during power cuts).
--
Roland Perry

[The Natural Philosopher]

Utterly insignificant compared with:

(a) 'Renewable' energy construction footprint
(b) the lifetime energy production of the plant

I suppose you will be claiming that windmills are greener, because no
one is responsible for decommissioning them, so they wont be.


--
“The fundamental cause of the trouble in the modern world today is that
the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt."

- Bertrand Russell

[Tim Ward]

On 25/06/2021 09:30, Alan wrote:
>
> British Gas
Not only do I have to lie to get a quote (they require me to say how I
currently pay but "quarterly direct debit is not one of the options")
but when I ask for details of Ts&Cs I first have to chose which of 360
tariffs I want the Ts&Cs for.

Epic fail. I want to know the Ts&Cs so that I can choose which tariff
I'm interested in, not the other way around.

Give up on British Gas, I think - they just make it too difficult for
anyone to actually buy anything.

[Tim Ward]

On 26/06/2021 12:19, Tim Ward wrote:
> On 25/06/2021 09:30, Alan wrote:
>>
>> British Gas
>
> Not only do I have to lie to get a quote (they require me to say how I
> currently pay but "quarterly direct debit is not one of the options")

So if I lie and choose the nearest option, "quarterly cash or cheque",
they give me a quote for "quarterly cash or cheque", with no option of
quarterly direct debit.

This makes no sense at all. Why would their quoting system not allow me
to choose a different payment method to how I'm paying my old supplier?

[Alan]

I tend to take online systems with a pinch of salt, and ring up and speak
with a real person. (I'm sure everyone does that with Virgin Media!) The
time taken is not usually much longer than faffing round the subtleties of
the online offerings.

[Roland Perry]

In message <sb724c$g4a$3...@dont-email.me>, at 12:13:16 on Sat, 26 Jun

2021, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> remarked:
>On 26/06/2021 11:54, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <sb6uhk$ram$2...@dont-email.me>, at 11:12:04 on Sat, 26 Jun
>>2021, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> remarked:
>>
>>> Or French nuclear.
>>>
>>> Which is called 'zero carbon', not 'renewable'

>> Despite the enormous carbon footprint of building the plants, and
>>decommissioning them later.
>
>Utterly insignificant compared with:
>
>(a) 'Renewable' energy construction footprint

Of what?

>(b) the lifetime energy production of the plant

The nuclear?

>I suppose you will be claiming that windmills are greener, because no
>one is responsible for decommissioning them, so they wont be.

No. In fact I was looking at all the helicopters on TV last week used
install north sea turbines, and wondering why no-one is up in arms about
*their* use of fossil fuels.

The biggest negative for inland wind turbines is the carbon footprint of
the concrete foundations. I don't know if there's an equivalent for
offshore ones, or do they just somehow screw-fix them to the sea bed?
--
Roland Perry

[Tim Ward]

On 26/06/2021 12:30, Alan wrote:
>
> I tend to take online systems with a pinch of salt, and ring up and
> speak with a real person. (I'm sure everyone does that with Virgin
> Media!) The time taken is not usually much longer than faffing round the
> subtleties of the online offerings.

Interesting. It hadn't occurred to me that you might be able to talk to
an actual human being - that's a bit rare these days.

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 26/06/2021 12:51, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <sb724c$g4a$3...@dont-email.me>, at 12:13:16 on Sat, 26 Jun
> 2021, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> remarked:
>> On 26/06/2021 11:54, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <sb6uhk$ram$2...@dont-email.me>, at 11:12:04 on Sat, 26 Jun
>>> 2021, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> remarked:
>>>
>>>> Or French nuclear.
>>>>
>>>> Which is called 'zero carbon', not 'renewable'
>
>>>  Despite the enormous carbon footprint of building the plants, and
>>> decommissioning them later.
>>
>> Utterly insignificant compared with:
>>
>> (a) 'Renewable' energy construction footprint
>
> Of what?

hydro dams
Windmill towers and concrete pads., solar panels

>
>> (b) the lifetime energy production of the plant
>
> The nuclear?
>

Any. Nuclear last 60 years. Dams over 100, windmills about 12. solar
panels - well about ten.

>> I suppose you will be claiming that windmills are greener, because no
>> one is responsible for decommissioning them, so they wont be.
>
> No. In fact I was looking at all the helicopters on TV last week used
> install north sea turbines, and wondering why no-one is up in arms about
> *their* use of fossil fuels.

Exactly

>
> The biggest negative for inland wind turbines is the carbon footprint of
> the concrete foundations. I don't know if there's an equivalent for
> offshore ones, or do they just somehow screw-fix them to the sea bed?

they *are* steel or concrete and *even bigger*

" in installations at depths below 15 metres, monopiles are used; these
are quite simple structures, made up of a thick steel cylinder that is
anchored directly to the sea bed. They are buried under the sea bed up
to 30 metres to support the tower."

"In the case of offshore wind farms that need to erect the wind turbines
30 metres over the sea level, clear from the action of waves, the
gravity foundation system is usually used, which involves using a large
concrete or steel platform with a diameter of approximately 15 metres
and a weight of approximately 1,000 tons ..."

https://www.iberdrola.com/sustainability/offshore-wind-turbines-foundations

Nice diagram there

--
The theory of Communism may be summed up in one sentence: Abolish all
private property.

Karl Marx

[Alan]

On Sat, 26 Jun 2021 13:08:59 +0100, Tim Ward <t...@brettward.co.uk> wrote:

> On 26/06/2021 12:30, Alan wrote:
>> I tend to take online systems with a pinch of salt, and ring up and
>> speak with a real person. (I'm sure everyone does that with Virgin
>> Media!) The time taken is not usually much longer than faffing round
>> the subtleties of the online offerings.
>
> Interesting. It hadn't occurred to me that you might be able to talk to
> an actual human being - that's a bit rare these days.
>

Their number on my bills is 0333 202 9802. If they won't help you on that
number or point you to the right number - you know they're not for you :-)

[Brian Morrison]

Plants like CO2, and my body doesn't work without it either.

CO2 as a greenhouse gas actually defies the physics, it isn't possible
for heat trapping to work how the AGW psychopaths say it does.

--

Brian

[Brian Morrison]

It'll rely on legislation to make it illegal to have old stuff or want to
carry on the way it has been.

Death's too good for 'em, just wait until the next grand solar minimum
when we'll all be doing brass monkey impressions because the sun has
decided to pause its normal variable output levels for 30-50 years.
Possibly coming within 20-40 years if you believe the theory on outer
planet position effects on the solar dynamo.

--

Brian

[tim...]

"The Natural Philosopher" <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:sb724c$g4a$3...@dont-email.me...

> On 26/06/2021 11:54, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <sb6uhk$ram$2...@dont-email.me>, at 11:12:04 on Sat, 26 Jun 2021,
>> The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> remarked:
>>
>>> Or French nuclear.
>>>
>>> Which is called 'zero carbon', not 'renewable'
>>
>> Despite the enormous carbon footprint of building the plants, and
>> decommissioning them later.
>
> Utterly insignificant compared with:
>
> (a) 'Renewable' energy construction footprint
> (b) the lifetime energy production of the plant
>
> I suppose you will be claiming that windmills are greener, because no one
> is responsible for decommissioning them, so they wont be.

well they look cute in the landscape and perhaps someone will convert them
into a house to live in when the have completed their life of grinding wheat
(or whatever)

[tim...]

"Tim Ward" <t...@brettward.co.uk> wrote in message
news:sb72mt$js5$2...@dont-email.me...

> On 26/06/2021 12:19, Tim Ward wrote:
>> On 25/06/2021 09:30, Alan wrote:
>>>
>>> British Gas
> >
>> Not only do I have to lie to get a quote (they require me to say how I
>> currently pay but "quarterly direct debit is not one of the options")
> So if I lie and choose the nearest option, "quarterly cash or cheque",
> they give me a quote for "quarterly cash or cheque", with no option of
> quarterly direct debit.

because most companies don't provide that option

I like to pay that way as well and when I choose to move supplier about 90%
of the available tariffs disappear off the chart

[Roland Perry]

In message <sb9c7t$hq8$1...@dont-email.me>, at 09:18:04 on Sun, 27 Jun
2021, tim... <timsn...@gmail.com> remarked:

I've heard of people living in old lighthouses and old water towers, but
not old wind turbines (are there any old enough, yet?)
--
Roland Perry

[Tim Ward]

On 27/06/2021 09:29, tim... wrote:
>>>
>>> Not only do I have to lie to get a quote (they require me to say
>>> how I currently pay but "quarterly direct debit is not one of the
>>> options")
>>
>> So if I lie and choose the nearest option, "quarterly cash or
>> cheque", they give me a quote for "quarterly cash or cheque", with
>> no option of quarterly direct debit.
>
> because most companies don't provide that option
>
> I like to pay that way as well and when I choose to move supplier
> about 90% of the available tariffs disappear off the chart

Do you currently have a supplier who does accept that method of payment?

[tim...]

"Tim Ward" <t...@brettward.co.uk> wrote in message

news:sb9e7k$kf1$1...@dont-email.me...

I do at the moment yes

I'm with SSE

but they have sold/merged/whatever their domestic customers with OVO who, I
infer from their website, don't provide such an option to new customers

so I expect to be told that I have to move to monthly direct debit sooner or
later

But now that I have the smart meter, I'm not quite so worried about people
guessing my usage and deciding that they have to bill me 90 pound per month,
every month, because that's the amount that I use for 2 months in the
winter.

and in any case am looking to move to this:

https://octopus.energy/agile/

because I don't match the profile of my peak usage being between 4pm and 7pm
so should see my bills become significantly lower (I'm just waiting for the
smart meter billing to settle in before I switch), and will suffer the
monthly DD to get that.

[Tim Ward]

On 27/06/2021 10:48, tim... wrote:
>
>> Do you currently have a supplier who does accept that method of
>> payment?
>
> I do at the moment yes
>
> I'm with SSE

No quarterly billing for new customers, it seems.

> but they have sold/merged/whatever their domestic customers with OVO
> who, I infer from their website, don't provide such an option to new
> customers
>
> so I expect to be told that I have to move to monthly direct debit
> sooner or later
>
> But now that I have the smart meter, I'm not quite so worried about
> people guessing my usage and deciding that they have to bill me 90
> pound per month, every month, because that's the amount that I use
> for 2 months in the winter.

No smart meter here. As far as I can see letting someone into my home to
fit one is a covid exposure risk with no benefit to me, so it ain't
gonna happen. Does a smart meter still tie you to the same supplier for
life, btw, or has this been fixed yet?

As well as making three times as much work for me, monthly billing seems
to mean, so far as I can tell from the media, that the punter ends up
lending the supplier large amounts of money, interest free, with endless
hassle when they try to get it back. I take the view that I'm not a
bank, and that if an energy supplier is short of cash they should look
to their bank, not their customers, to sort out their cash flow
problems. So I prefer to pay against meter readings (OK, so actually I
CBA to read the meter every quarter, so I do sometimes pay estimated
bills, but at least I have the choice).

And smart meters aren't about helping the punter, they're about
offloading the market risks to the punter. At present if the supplier
screws up their purchasing such that they have to pay 100 times the
usual price for one half hour (and yes, that does happen) it's the
*supplier* paying 100 times the usual price, not *me*. With this risk
palmed off onto the punter the supplier won't have any motivation to
even *try* to get their purchasing right. (Yes I know there are tariffs
on which the risk is capped at "only" a factor of four, but (1) for how
long, with the supplier able to change the Ts&Cs unilaterally, and (2)
that still means the supplier can sack all their clever traders and rely
on not-really-there-yet AI systems with me taking most of the risk.)

[Roland Perry]

In message <sb9iq2$bl1$1...@dont-email.me>, at 11:10:10 on Sun, 27 Jun
2021, Tim Ward <t...@brettward.co.uk> remarked:

>On 27/06/2021 10:48, tim... wrote:
>>
>>> Do you currently have a supplier who does accept that method of
>>>payment?
>> I do at the moment yes
>> I'm with SSE
>
>No quarterly billing for new customers, it seems.
>
>> but they have sold/merged/whatever their domestic customers with OVO
>> who, I infer from their website, don't provide such an option to new
>> customers
>> so I expect to be told that I have to move to monthly direct debit
>>sooner or later
>> But now that I have the smart meter, I'm not quite so worried about
>>people guessing my usage and deciding that they have to bill me 90
>>pound per month, every month, because that's the amount that I use for
>>2 months in the winter.
>
>No smart meter here. As far as I can see letting someone into my home to
>fit one is a covid exposure risk with no benefit to me, so it ain't
>gonna happen. Does a smart meter still tie you to the same supplier for
>life, btw,

It's never tied you, but you'd have to revert to a non-Smart tariff in
many cases.

>or has this been fixed yet?

Newly fitted smart meters might be better, but it would take some
research to get a decent answer.

>As well as making three times as much work for me, monthly billing seems
>to mean, so far as I can tell from the media, that the punter ends up
>lending the supplier large amounts of money, interest free, with endless
>hassle when they try to get it back.

I think you are conflating monthly billing with the schemes where they
estimate your annual consumption and then charge you constant 1/12 every
month.

It seems to be the luck of the draw whether you or they end up positive
or negative most of the time.

Last time I looked I think I'm generally about two months in debt [which
some might claim has drawbacks of its own] but the first such scheme I
was on about 15yrs ago I was about six months in surplus. The regulator
eventually ruled (on a super-complaint, not individual cases) that their
system was broken, and they had to apologise.

>I take the view that I'm not a
>bank, and that if an energy supplier is short of cash they should look
>to their bank, not their customers, to sort out their cash flow
>problems. So I prefer to pay against meter readings (OK, so actually I
>CBA to read the meter every quarter, so I do sometimes pay estimated
>bills, but at least I have the choice).
>
>And smart meters aren't about helping the punter, they're about
>offloading the market risks to the punter. At present if the supplier
>screws up their purchasing such that they have to pay 100 times the
>usual price for one half hour (and yes, that does happen) it's the
>*supplier* paying 100 times the usual price, not *me*. With this risk
>palmed off onto the punter the supplier won't have any motivation to
>even *try* to get their purchasing right. (Yes I know there are tariffs
>on which the risk is capped at "only" a factor of four, but (1) for how
>long, with the supplier able to change the Ts&Cs unilaterally, and (2)
>that still means the supplier can sack all their clever traders and
>rely on not-really-there-yet AI systems with me taking most of the risk.)

I doubt that the majority of smart meter tariffs reflect the wholesale
spot-price (plus a margin) for every half hour of every day, but have a
fixed price regardless.

[There are a few which claim to offer an hourly (or whatever) *cheaper*
billed cost if the spot price has collapsed due to oversupply].
--
Roland Perry

[Tim Ward]

On 27/06/2021 11:31, Roland Perry wrote:
>
> I doubt that the majority of smart meter tariffs reflect the wholesale
> spot-price (plus a margin) for every half hour of every day, but have a
> fixed price regardless.

Unless and until the supplier unilaterally changes the Ts&Cs. If I don't
have a smart meter they can't do that to me.

[Richard Kettlewell]

Tim Ward <t...@brettward.co.uk> writes:
>> But now that I have the smart meter, I'm not quite so worried about
>> people guessing my usage and deciding that they have to bill me 90
>> pound per month, every month, because that's the amount that I use
>> for 2 months in the winter.
>
> No smart meter here. As far as I can see letting someone into my home to
> fit one is a covid exposure risk with no benefit to me, so it ain't
> gonna happen. Does a smart meter still tie you to the same supplier
> for life, btw, or has this been fixed yet?

They’ve never tied you to one supplier for life; you can still take a
manual reading.

Historically SMETS1 meters would only share readings with the supplier
that installed them. There’s an ongoing program to fix this but with 14M
installed meters with “hundreds of technology variations” it’s
inevitably slow - the latest figure I’ve found is under a million
migrated though I think that refers to last year. At any rate my latest
supplier seem to know my current electricity reading without human
intervention, so it seems the one I have has now been migrated.

Newly fitted meters since 2018 (SMETS2) are independent of supplier.

--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

[Roland Perry]

In message <sb9kob$d9g$1...@dont-email.me>, at 11:43:23 on Sun, 27 Jun

2021, Tim Ward <t...@brettward.co.uk> remarked:

>On 27/06/2021 11:31, Roland Perry wrote:

>> I doubt that the majority of smart meter tariffs reflect the
>>wholesale spot-price (plus a margin) for every half hour of every
>>day, but have a fixed price regardless.
>
>Unless and until the supplier unilaterally changes the Ts&Cs. If I
>don't have a smart meter they can't do that to me.

Obviously not, but people sign up to such tariffs to get the discounted
electricity at times of surplus.
--
Roland Perry

[Rupert Moss-Eccardt]

New meters are (mostly) required to be "SMETS2"[*] so will work across
suppliers. The older SMETS1 meters were, sort of, tied to the provider
but I have been able to change suppliers twice on my SMETS1 and it
stayed "smart". Indeed, Octopus have re-keyed mine so I am also able to
record outgoing electricity from the panels.

[*]The government have set targets for Smart Meter roll out and new
SMETS1 installs don't count so the energy companies are being pressed
to install SMETS2 even though some do gave large SMETS1 inventories.

SMETS2 always use the DCC dedicated network whereas SMETS1 uses 3G SIMs
in many cases, though I gather with a dedicated APN or APNs.

> I doubt that the majority of smart meter tariffs reflect the wholesale
> spot-price (plus a margin) for every half hour of every day, but have a
> fixed price regardless.
>
> [There are a few which claim to offer an hourly (or whatever) *cheaper*
> billed cost if the spot price has collapsed due to oversupply].

Some provide a spot price-based outgoing tarrif. If I had batteries I
would be tempted.

[Roland Perry]

In message <ijr7el...@mid.individual.net>, at 12:58:10 on Sun, 27
Jun 2021, Rupert Moss-Eccardt <n...@moss-eccardt.com> remarked:

Which appears to be built on top of O2's 2G network.

>whereas SMETS1 uses 3G SIMs

Mainly 2G, or 2.5G (GPRS I suppose, rather than SMS), it's said.

>in many cases, though I gather with a dedicated APN or APNs.
>
>> I doubt that the majority of smart meter tariffs reflect the wholesale
>> spot-price (plus a margin) for every half hour of every day, but have a
>> fixed price regardless.
>>
>> [There are a few which claim to offer an hourly (or whatever) *cheaper*
>> billed cost if the spot price has collapsed due to oversupply].
>
>Some provide a spot price-based outgoing tarrif. If I had batteries I
>would be tempted.

I'm seriously considering installing Solar panels and a battery buffer
for my garage, in anticipation of charging an EV. That'll create a
surplus most of the time (especially before I get an EV!) which if the
wiring regs allow I could use to part-power the house, or even feed into
the network. Question is: how do I find someone who knows how this all
works.
--
Roland Perry

[Tim Ward]

On 27/06/2021 13:19, Roland Perry wrote:
>
> Question is: how do I find someone who knows how this all
> works.

Sarah Brown has a system and appears to know quite a lot about it.

[tim...]

"Tim Ward" <t...@brettward.co.uk> wrote in message

news:sb9iq2$bl1$1...@dont-email.me...

> On 27/06/2021 10:48, tim... wrote:
>>
>>> Do you currently have a supplier who does accept that method of payment?
>>
>> I do at the moment yes
>>
>> I'm with SSE
>
> No quarterly billing for new customers, it seems.
>
>> but they have sold/merged/whatever their domestic customers with OVO
>> who, I infer from their website, don't provide such an option to new
>> customers
>>
>> so I expect to be told that I have to move to monthly direct debit sooner
>> or later
>>
>> But now that I have the smart meter, I'm not quite so worried about
>> people guessing my usage and deciding that they have to bill me 90 pound
>> per month, every month, because that's the amount that I use for 2 months
>> in the winter.
>
> No smart meter here. As far as I can see letting someone into my home to
> fit one is a covid exposure risk with no benefit to me, so it ain't

mine's in a cupboard off the car park

which makes it easy for them to fit

but means that the gizmo reader thingy doesn't work (unless I walk it
downstairs and stand outside the cupboard).

Fortunately they have now made their web access report the details correctly
(which it didn't do in month 1)

> gonna happen. Does a smart meter still tie you to the same supplier for
> life, btw, or has this been fixed yet?

It's supposed to be fixed

>
> As well as making three times as much work for me, monthly billing seems
> to mean, so far as I can tell from the media, that the punter ends up
> lending the supplier large amounts of money, interest free, with endless
> hassle when they try to get it back.

yup

that's my sole reason for not wanting to do it (as a low user they always
over estimate my usage by a mile)

the smart meter should make it easier for you to prove a complaint

but you're still going to have to make it

tim

[tim...]

"Roland Perry" <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote in message
news:AW75kr0Z...@perry.uk...

have you actually looked at the costs/benefit of doing that?

when I did it for our block (I can sell it to residents as an eco-project if
it is cost neutral), with feed-in tariff now at zero and export tariff at
something pathetic like 2p per unit, it didn't come anywhere near close to
being cost effective.

It might make a difference if solar charging lets you avoid any "user" tax
that HMG apply to car charging, but

a) there currently isn't any proposales for such a tax
b) if there was, and the was substantial avoidance opportunities by using
solar panels, I'd bet that they'd find a way to close such a loop-hole

[Tim Ward]

On 27/06/2021 18:25, tim... wrote:
>
> but means that the gizmo reader thingy doesn't work (unless I walk it
> downstairs and stand outside the cupboard).

Yeah, I don't get this whole gizmo reader thingy concept. Why not just
give you a web interface FFS so you can look at it on a device of your
choosing? Another reason for me to think that the whole concept isn't
yet ready for the real world.

[Rupert Moss-Eccardt]

Sort of. Telefonica in the South and Arqiva in the North

>>whereas SMETS1 uses 3G SIMs
>
> Mainly 2G, or 2.5G (GPRS I suppose, rather than SMS), it's said.

I doubt it as the 2G frequency is being recycled.

>>in many cases, though I gather with a dedicated APN or APNs.
>>
>>> I doubt that the majority of smart meter tariffs reflect the wholesale
>>> spot-price (plus a margin) for every half hour of every day, but have a
>>> fixed price regardless.
>>>
>>> [There are a few which claim to offer an hourly (or whatever) *cheaper*
>>> billed cost if the spot price has collapsed due to oversupply].
>>
>>Some provide a spot price-based outgoing tarrif. If I had batteries I
>>would be tempted.
>
> I'm seriously considering installing Solar panels and a battery buffer
> for my garage, in anticipation of charging an EV. That'll create a
> surplus most of the time (especially before I get an EV!) which if the
> wiring regs allow I could use to part-power the house, or even feed into
> the network. Question is: how do I find someone who knows how this all
> works.

To get any money you need to use an installer that can get you an MCS
certificate and DNO approval for attachment. If the supplier isn't
MCS-certified for all the components, run away!

[Rupert Moss-Eccardt]

Outgoing Octopus gets you 5p/unit fixed and Outgoing Octopus Agile gets
you a rate tracking the half-hour wholesale rate

[Mark Carroll]

On 27 Jun 2021, Tim Ward wrote:
(snip)

> No smart meter here. As far as I can see letting someone into my home to
> fit one is a covid exposure risk with no benefit to me, so it ain't
> gonna happen. Does a smart meter still tie you to the same supplier for
> life, btw, or has this been fixed yet?

OVO were able to use the smart meter that a previous provider installed
(Ecotricity? can't remember) but an interim provider (Fischer, then
Foxglove) couldn't.

> As well as making three times as much work for me, monthly billing seems
> to mean, so far as I can tell from the media, that the punter ends up
> lending the supplier large amounts of money, interest free, with endless
> hassle when they try to get it back. I take the view that I'm not a
> bank, and that if an energy supplier is short of cash they should look
> to their bank, not their customers, to sort out their cash flow
> problems. So I prefer to pay against meter readings (OK, so actually I
> CBA to read the meter every quarter, so I do sometimes pay estimated
> bills, but at least I have the choice).

I'm completely lost here. With both providers who could use my smart
meter, they simply billed me at the end of the month for whatever it
said I'd used. The usage graphs tended to look plausible. I'm not aware
that I loaned them any money?

> And smart meters aren't about helping the punter, they're about
> offloading the market risks to the punter. At present if the supplier
> screws up their purchasing such that they have to pay 100 times the
> usual price for one half hour (and yes, that does happen) it's the
> *supplier* paying 100 times the usual price, not *me*. With this risk
> palmed off onto the punter the supplier won't have any motivation to
> even *try* to get their purchasing right.

(snip)

I /thought/ they used to warn me if the unit price was going up, so I
could switch if I wanted, but maybe I missed something here too. At
least most did.

-- Mark

[Mark Carroll]

On 27 Jun 2021, Rupert Moss-Eccardt wrote:

> To get any money you need to use an installer that can get you an MCS
> certificate and DNO approval for attachment. If the supplier isn't
> MCS-certified for all the components, run away!

Rather than selling back directly, I wonder how perversely inefficient
it would be to use surplus solar to mine bitcoin to fund the purchase of
green electricity for the house. (-:

-- Mark

[Mark Carroll]

On 27 Jun 2021, Tim Ward wrote:

> Yeah, I don't get this whole gizmo reader thingy concept. Why not just
> give you a web interface FFS so you can look at it on a device of your
> choosing? Another reason for me to think that the whole concept isn't
> yet ready for the real world.

Exciting. My smart meters had physical displays where I would push "9",
I think, and it would show me the usage number very briefly before
moving on to show me other numbers I didn't care about. So for the
outdoor gas one I still got to battle the spiders under the hatch and
such if I wanted to do a manual read.

-- Mark

[Steve McIntyre]

In article <sb9iq2$bl1$1...@dont-email.me>, Tim Ward <t...@brettward.co.uk> wrote:
>
>As well as making three times as much work for me, monthly billing seems
>to mean, so far as I can tell from the media, that the punter ends up
>lending the supplier large amounts of money, interest free, with endless
>hassle when they try to get it back. I take the view that I'm not a
>bank, and that if an energy supplier is short of cash they should look
>to their bank, not their customers, to sort out their cash flow
>problems. So I prefer to pay against meter readings (OK, so actually I
>CBA to read the meter every quarter, so I do sometimes pay estimated
>bills, but at least I have the choice).

Sorry to interrupt a rant with facts and all, but...

https://www.ovoenergy.com/help/interest-reward

tells me they offering a better rate of interest on credit in customer
accounts than any of the banks I've seen recently. As a customer I
know I can set my own direct debit level. I wouldn't be too surprised
if some other suppliers offer similar features.

--
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK
st...@einval.com https://www.einval.com/~steve/

[Roland Perry]

In message <sbacp3$6tj$1...@dont-email.me>, at 18:33:22 on Sun, 27 Jun
2021, tim... <timsn...@gmail.com> remarked:

The main benefit is being able to charge an EV at all (well, more than
at a trickle).

>when I did it for our block (I can sell it to residents as an
>eco-project if it is cost neutral), with feed-in tariff now at zero and
>export tariff at something pathetic like 2p per unit, it didn't come
>anywhere near close to being cost effective.
>
>It might make a difference if solar charging lets you avoid any "user"
>tax that HMG apply to car charging, but
>
>a) there currently isn't any proposales for such a tax
>b) if there was, and the was substantial avoidance opportunities by
>using solar panels, I'd bet that they'd find a way to close such a
>loop-hole

There's the electricity fed to the house, too.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <sbadd5$a7q$1...@dont-email.me>, at 18:44:05 on Sun, 27 Jun

2021, Tim Ward <t...@brettward.co.uk> remarked:

>On 27/06/2021 18:25, tim... wrote:
>> but means that the gizmo reader thingy doesn't work (unless I walk
>>it downstairs and stand outside the cupboard).
>
>Yeah, I don't get this whole gizmo reader thingy concept. Why not just
>give you a web interface FFS so you can look at it on a device of your
>choosing?

Probably because the smart meter doesn't have wifi. The readout updates
every minute (I think) so has to be direct from the meter.

>Another reason for me to think that the whole concept isn't yet ready
>for the real world.
>

--

Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <ijrta7...@mid.individual.net>, at 19:11:16 on Sun, 27

My source was information about Arquiva (name rang a bell, but only
just) who have apparently sold their comms business to some other
Spaniards, and the suggestion they used O2 for their DCC carrier.

>>>whereas SMETS1 uses 3G SIMs
>>
>> Mainly 2G, or 2.5G (GPRS I suppose, rather than SMS), it's said.
>
>I doubt it as the 2G frequency is being recycled.

Won't that obsolete all the first-gen smart meters, as well as thousands
of burglar alarms etc.

>>>in many cases, though I gather with a dedicated APN or APNs.
>>>
>>>> I doubt that the majority of smart meter tariffs reflect the wholesale
>>>> spot-price (plus a margin) for every half hour of every day, but have a
>>>> fixed price regardless.
>>>>
>>>> [There are a few which claim to offer an hourly (or whatever) *cheaper*
>>>> billed cost if the spot price has collapsed due to oversupply].
>>>
>>>Some provide a spot price-based outgoing tarrif. If I had batteries I
>>>would be tempted.
>>
>> I'm seriously considering installing Solar panels and a battery buffer
>> for my garage, in anticipation of charging an EV. That'll create a
>> surplus most of the time (especially before I get an EV!) which if the
>> wiring regs allow I could use to part-power the house, or even feed into
>> the network. Question is: how do I find someone who knows how this all
>> works.
>
>To get any money you need to use an installer that can get you an MCS
>certificate and DNO approval for attachment. If the supplier isn't
>MCS-certified for all the components, run away!

That's the sort of thing I'm trying to find out. Without this booster
I'd need DNO approval to uprate to 100A and fit a fast-charger, anyway.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <87r1gnx...@ixod.org>, at 14:37:19 on Sun, 27 Jun 2021,
Mark Carroll <mt...@kings.cantab.net> remarked:

>I'm completely lost here. With both providers who could use my smart
>meter, they simply billed me at the end of the month for whatever it
>said I'd used. The usage graphs tended to look plausible. I'm not aware
>that I loaned them any money?

See my posting 11:31 yesterday about annual averaging tariffs (which I
suspect almost all of them are now).
--
Roland Perry

[Tim Ward]

On 28/06/2021 08:15, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <sbadd5$a7q$1...@dont-email.me>, at 18:44:05 on Sun, 27 Jun
> 2021, Tim Ward <t...@brettward.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 27/06/2021 18:25, tim... wrote:
>>>  but means that the gizmo reader thingy doesn't work (unless I walk
>>> it  downstairs and stand outside the cupboard).
>>
>> Yeah, I don't get this whole gizmo reader thingy concept. Why not just
>> give you a web interface FFS so you can look at it on a device of your
>> choosing?
>
> Probably because the smart meter doesn't have wifi. The readout updates
> every minute (I think) so has to be direct from the meter.

One might have guessed that the smart meter uploads its readings
somewhere - otherwise what use is it? - so it is within the laws of
physics to provide an API for the punter to query his own data on the
"somewhere". And providing such an API would, surely, be cheaper for the
smart meter operator than responding in an ad hoc manner to individual
data subject requests.

[Theo]

Tim Ward <t...@brettward.co.uk> wrote:
> Yeah, I don't get this whole gizmo reader thingy concept. Why not just
> give you a web interface FFS so you can look at it on a device of your
> choosing? Another reason for me to think that the whole concept isn't
> yet ready for the real world.

The purpose of the display and the web interface are different. The meter
reports consumption at a granularity down to 30 mins, which is something you
have to enable, otherwise I think it's either daily or monthly.
30 minute readings are enough to do granular billing, like it's expensive
when everyone is cooking their tea.

The local display reports in granules of 10 seconds. That would be way too
much data to send upstream. The idea is it makes you more aware of your
energy consumption. Inefficient tumble drier? When you switch it on you'll
see your consumption jump, it makes you a bit more aware of where it goes.
Being a portable thing you can move it around to wherever you happen to be
consuming. I think in reality this is a bit of a niche pursuit, but
potentially useful to those who put the effort in. I found it helpful in
being able to hunt down baseload things that would be taking power in the
night time when everything was supposed to be off.

The other thing it's useful for is it gives minute by minute spending
profiles. That's maybe of no concern to you, but for people on prepayment
tariffs where it replaces putting a shilling in the meter, this is the
difference between being able to afford dinner on the table and not.

Theo

[Mark Goodge]

On 28 Jun 2021 10:11:00 +0100 (BST), Theo

<theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

>The local display reports in granules of 10 seconds. That would be way too
>much data to send upstream. The idea is it makes you more aware of your
>energy consumption. Inefficient tumble drier? When you switch it on you'll
>see your consumption jump, it makes you a bit more aware of where it goes.
>Being a portable thing you can move it around to wherever you happen to be
>consuming. I think in reality this is a bit of a niche pursuit, but
>potentially useful to those who put the effort in. I found it helpful in
>being able to hunt down baseload things that would be taking power in the
>night time when everything was supposed to be off.

The real problem with the local display module is that it's a walled
garden - you have to have the physical object in your posession in order
to be able to read it. What would be far more useful is for the local
data to be transmitted to an app on your phone, so that you've always
got the display withou you without needing a separate device. That could
be done by making the display module connect to your wifi, so that the
app can then query it over the air. Or, for real nerds who like to store
reams of data, download it to your PC.

Like Tim, I don't think that the UX of smart meters has been
particularly well thought out. There's an assumption that a traditional
meter is a standalone device, so that needs to be replicated with a
smart meter - it's just that the smart meter's standalone device is
portable. But the real win here is integrating the meter with your
domestic wifi/ethernet network, not just so that you can read the data
on your smartphone but also so that it can communicate directly with the
likes of Hive and Nest, for example.

There's a lot of scope to minimise energy consumption by shaping your
typical usage, but in an ideal, connected world a lot of that will
happen automatically as your IoT devices make their own decisions based
on information from the meter rather than needing a human intermediary.
But at the moment, that can't happen because the smart meter can't talk
to your network and the devices have no visibility of the data.

Mark

[Tim Ward]

On 28/06/2021 10:51, Mark Goodge wrote:
>
> But the real win here is integrating the meter with your
> domestic wifi/ethernet network

Nah, the cloud. I shouldn't be restricted to looking at it only when I'm
at home.

Just like I can read all the sensors in our greenhouse from anywhere
together with their history (every ten minutes). I'd expect something
similar (but would accept half hourly, and would accept a day's delay)
from a useful smart meter.

[Roland Perry]

In message <sbc146$q3t$1...@dont-email.me>, at 09:26:44 on Mon, 28 Jun

2021, Tim Ward <t...@brettward.co.uk> remarked:
>On 28/06/2021 08:15, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <sbadd5$a7q$1...@dont-email.me>, at 18:44:05 on Sun, 27 Jun
>>2021, Tim Ward <t...@brettward.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 27/06/2021 18:25, tim... wrote:
>>>>  but means that the gizmo reader thingy doesn't work (unless I walk
>>>>it  downstairs and stand outside the cupboard).
>>>
>>> Yeah, I don't get this whole gizmo reader thingy concept. Why not
>>>just give you a web interface FFS so you can look at it on a device
>>>of your choosing?
>> Probably because the smart meter doesn't have wifi. The readout
>>updates every minute (I think) so has to be direct from the meter.
>
>One might have guessed that the smart meter uploads its readings
>somewhere - otherwise what use is it? - so it is within the laws of
>physics to provide an API for the punter to query his own data on the
>"somewhere".

No, but that's not what the gismo tells you, which is almost real-time.

>And providing such an API would, surely, be cheaper for the smart meter
>operator than responding in an ad hoc manner to individual data subject
>requests.

No doubt you can try to find an energy company which has made that
commercial decision, but they might also (randomly) also untick most of
your other boxes.
--
Roland Perry

[Mark Goodge]

On Mon, 28 Jun 2021 11:04:20 +0100, Tim Ward <t...@brettward.co.uk>
wrote:

>On 28/06/2021 10:51, Mark Goodge wrote:
>>
>> But the real win here is integrating the meter with your
>> domestic wifi/ethernet network
>
>Nah, the cloud. I shouldn't be restricted to looking at it only when I'm
>at home.

If it's connected to the wifi then it can also upload to the cloud.

>Just like I can read all the sensors in our greenhouse from anywhere
>together with their history (every ten minutes). I'd expect something
>similar (but would accept half hourly, and would accept a day's delay)
>from a useful smart meter.

Indeed.

Mark

[Roland Perry]

In message <uXB*js...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 10:11:00 on Mon,
28 Jun 2021, Theo <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:

>The local display reports in granules of 10 seconds. That would be way too
>much data to send upstream. The idea is it makes you more aware of your
>energy consumption. Inefficient tumble drier? When you switch it on you'll
>see your consumption jump, it makes you a bit more aware of where it goes.
>Being a portable thing you can move it around to wherever you happen to be
>consuming. I think in reality this is a bit of a niche pursuit, but
>potentially useful to those who put the effort in. I found it helpful in
>being able to hunt down baseload things that would be taking power in the
>night time when everything was supposed to be off.

I found the most useful "heads up" was the looking at the today-so-far
total at 7am (or whenever) before anything other than baseload would
have been consuming energy.

At the other end of the scale, fretting whether running almost every
single hungry domestic appliance simultaneously was going to blow a
fuse.

Yes, I know all about diversity, but on the other hand when I'm in the
kitchen on domestic duty I'm likely to almost simultaneously start the
dishwasher (that I forgot the night before), put the last set of washing
in the dryer, begin a new load of washing, turn on the oven to start
Sunday lunch - baking something that I just put into the microwave to
defrost, pop on the kettle for cuppa, the toaster for an elevenses
snack... and so on.
--
Roland Perry

[Theo]

Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
> Like Tim, I don't think that the UX of smart meters has been
> particularly well thought out. There's an assumption that a traditional
> meter is a standalone device, so that needs to be replicated with a
> smart meter - it's just that the smart meter's standalone device is
> portable. But the real win here is integrating the meter with your
> domestic wifi/ethernet network, not just so that you can read the data
> on your smartphone but also so that it can communicate directly with the
> likes of Hive and Nest, for example.

I agree to some extent, but the smart meter ecosystem is intentionally very
locked down for security reasons. To connect to it requires a large amount
of compliance and security auditing, and it intentionally is not accessible
via anything that might be internet connected because of the risks that
would open up. There are 'Consumer Access Devices' that allow this, but
they are rare and need explicit authorisation to connect by your supplier.

So I can see why a security-first approach is this hardline. But I wish
there was a one-way meter readings protocol - for example broadcast by
short-range (<0.5m) radio. Then you could put your chosen device adjacent
to the meter and receive the readings, without worries that you might be
able to tamper with the metering or turn off the supply remotely.

> There's a lot of scope to minimise energy consumption by shaping your
> typical usage, but in an ideal, connected world a lot of that will
> happen automatically as your IoT devices make their own decisions based
> on information from the meter rather than needing a human intermediary.
> But at the moment, that can't happen because the smart meter can't talk
> to your network and the devices have no visibility of the data.

I think that may come, but the compliance requirement makes it a fairly high
bar to connect. It demands more than the Nest 'oops it broke and everyone's
heating went off, sorreeee'[1] quality of product.

Theo

[1] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-35311447

[Alan]

On Mon, 28 Jun 2021 10:11:00 +0100, Theo
<theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:


>
> The local display reports in granules of 10 seconds. That would be way
> too
> much data to send upstream. The idea is it makes you more aware of your
> energy consumption. Inefficient tumble drier? When you switch it on
> you'll
> see your consumption jump, it makes you a bit more aware of where it
> goes.
> Being a portable thing you can move it around to wherever you happen to
> be
> consuming. I think in reality this is a bit of a niche pursuit, but
> potentially useful to those who put the effort in. I found it helpful in
> being able to hunt down baseload things that would be taking power in the
> night time when everything was supposed to be off.
>

Although it would be even more useful if battery powered to make it easily
portable. Mine just got left in the drawer after a weeks novelty as I
didn't have any spare sockets in the Kitchen.

But the I do like the Smart Meter itself as no more estimated bils, no
more fixed monthly payments, no more having to read a meter.

Only problem in Ely was getting mobile signal good enough to get them set
up. Took BG two visits and three meters to get me working. If the setup
fails due to signal issues, the meter is apparently trashed and they have
to register a new one and start again. (I would hope they could be
"factory reset" back at base....)

--
Alan

Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/