Transferring a video to an iPad

[Roland Perry]

This has me stumped. I want to put an MP4 video that's on my PC onto an
iPad so it can be viewed from there.

The iPad is connected to the PC with a USB cable, but there's nowhere on
the iPad that will accept a file copy, and I can't see what app I'd use
on the iPad to play it once transferred.

No doubt I'm missing something obvious?
--
Roland Perry

[Espen H. Koht]

In article <ipDh4tDS...@perry.co.uk>,

If you don't want to involve a third-party server, the obvious answer is
to use iTunes.

[John Burnham]

Possibly. Remember iDevices want you to import your content into iTunes
and then transfer it across using iTunes.

[Roland Perry]

In message <uis*No...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 16:17:48 on Thu,
18 Apr 2013, John Burnham <jo...@jaka.demon.co.uk> remarked:

Does that mean running a copy of iTunes on the PC then synching the iPad
with that? I can't see anything within the iPad's iTunes app for
importing from anywhere other than their store.
--
Roland Perry

[Espen Koht]

In article <n5SgsNGX...@perry.co.uk>,

There should is a top level section called "Library" used for all your
own media (music, 'films', 'TV programmes', Books etc)

The store is a separate section for purchases which will go into your
Library with all the other stuff you've put there.

[Paul Gotch]

Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> Does that mean running a copy of iTunes on the PC then synching the iPad
> with that? I can't see anything within the iPad's iTunes app for
> importing from anywhere other than their store.

Yes you must use iTunes.

On MacOS just dragging the file on to iTunes will import it into the
correct place ie Music for audio files, Video for video and Books for
epub files and PDFs.

File->AddToLibrary

Probably also works but I've not tried it on anything but audio.

Make sure the options are set to sync that type of content when the
device is attached and then sync.

It's a design feature of iOS that you cannot accesss the file system
directly.

-p
--
Paul Gotch
--------------------------------------------------------------------

[Paul Gotch]

Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> The iPad is connected to the PC with a USB cable, but there's nowhere on
> the iPad that will accept a file copy, and I can't see what app I'd use
> on the iPad to play it once transferred.

Um the Videos app? The content will appear there once imported into
iTunes and synced.

[Andrew]

On Thu, 18 Apr 2013 15:57:22 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

Welcome to the wonderful world of Apple. remember that this is your iPad
but you _will_ use it the way that Apple wants. As others have said you
need to import into iTunes and then sync with the iPad.

I had to give up on iTunes when it filled my C drive with temporary files
when syncing and refused to go any further. This was despite the fact
that I had given it another drive on which to store its library. It seems
that it will use the C drive for syncing and cannot be told otherwise.
This is he way that Apple want to do it.

However I now have a little app called Photo Manager Pro which costs
something like £1.99 and is well worth it.

https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/photo-manager-pro/id393858562?mt=8

It can be set to act as an ftp server - connect to that and you can
directly transfer photos and videos from anywhere. It also allows sorting
of photos which was why I bought it. The iPad picture viewer will sort
pictures by the date taken. Even if you go to the trouble of renaming
them all in a different order it will _still_ display them based on the
exif data for the time taken.

So Photo Manager Pro may be worth taking a look at. No affiliation etc.

Andrew

[Mike Clark]

In message <atapul...@mid.individual.net>

Andrew <andrew...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 18 Apr 2013 15:57:22 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:
>
> > This has me stumped. I want to put an MP4 video that's on my PC onto an
> > iPad so it can be viewed from there.
> >
> > The iPad is connected to the PC with a USB cable, but there's nowhere on
> > the iPad that will accept a file copy, and I can't see what app I'd use
> > on the iPad to play it once transferred.
> >
> > No doubt I'm missing something obvious?
>
> Welcome to the wonderful world of Apple. remember that this is your iPad
> but you _will_ use it the way that Apple wants. As others have said you
> need to import into iTunes and then sync with the iPad.

There are other ways of importing the file. For example if you install
the Google Drive App on your iPad and on your PC you can synchronise the
files via Google over wireless. Alternatively it is possible to buy an
adapter that plugs into the connector port on the iPad and which takes
sD cards. Then you can copy your file onto the sD card and transfer from
the sD card into the iPad using the "photo import from camera"
protocols.

Mike
--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark
<\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing,
"> || _`\<,_ |__\ \> | caving, antibody engineer and
` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user" http://www.antibody.me.uk/

[Mark Goodge]

On Thu, 18 Apr 2013 17:25:59 +0100, Roland Perry put finger to keyboard and
typed:

>In message <uis*No...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 16:17:48 on Thu,
>18 Apr 2013, John Burnham <jo...@jaka.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> This has me stumped. I want to put an MP4 video that's on my PC onto an
>>> iPad so it can be viewed from there.
>>>
>>> The iPad is connected to the PC with a USB cable, but there's nowhere on
>>> the iPad that will accept a file copy, and I can't see what app I'd use
>>> on the iPad to play it once transferred.
>>>
>>> No doubt I'm missing something obvious?
>>
>>Possibly. Remember iDevices want you to import your content into iTunes
>>and then transfer it across using iTunes.
>
>Does that mean running a copy of iTunes on the PC then synching the iPad
>with that?

Yes.

>I can't see anything within the iPad's iTunes app for
>importing from anywhere other than their store.

That's correct. An iThingy doesn't have the facility to import stuff on its
own other than from the iTunes store. To put stuff on it from an external
source requires iTunes on a host PC or Mac which can then push it to the
iThingy.

This is one of the reasons why I switched from iThingies to Android.

(To be fair, if you actually like and use iTunes, then its ability to
synchronise with and manage the content on your iThingy is a positive point
as it means you can control your entire media library from just one desktop
application. And that's why Apple have designed it that way. And many
people love it, for that reason. There's no simple, centralised equivalent
for Android devices. But it's a very negative point if you prefer to manage
your media library via other applications, as it means you need to maintain
iTunes just to be able to include your iThingy in your media devices).

Mark
--
Please take a short survey on salary perceptions: http://meyu.eu/am
My blog: http://mark.goodge.co.uk

[Roland Perry]

In message <Gqd*uV...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 18:37:20 on Thu,
18 Apr 2013, Paul Gotch <pa...@at-cantab-dot.net> remarked:

>> The iPad is connected to the PC with a USB cable, but there's nowhere on
>> the iPad that will accept a file copy, and I can't see what app I'd use
>> on the iPad to play it once transferred.
>
>Um the Videos app? The content will appear there once imported into
>iTunes and synced.

The iTunes app on the iPad doesn't appear to have any kind of import
function.

> File->AddToLibrary

No "File" menu option on the iPad. Currently installing iTunes on a PC
to see what that reveals.

>It's a design feature of iOS that you cannot accesss the file system
>directly.

Actually, I can "see" a few photo files via the USB, but it won't let me
write additional files or create new directories.

In message <ehk20-7BED62....@nnrp.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at
17:59:15 on Thu, 18 Apr 2013, Espen Koht <eh...@cam.ac.uk> remarked:

>There should is a top level section called "Library" used for all your
>own media (music, 'films', 'TV programmes', Books etc)

Nope, nothing called "Library" anywhere on the iPad or inside any of the
usual suspect Apps. (As far as I can see).

--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <atapul...@mid.individual.net>, at 17:48:05 on Thu, 18
Apr 2013, Andrew <andrew...@hotmail.com> remarked:

>Photo Manager Pro may be worth taking a look at.

I have an app called 'Playable' waiting in the wings, but even though
it's free they won't let me download it (from the App store) without
"signing in", and I don't have the iPad user's password handy.

ps In other news, Windows 8 has also adopted the "you MUST have an
account with Microsoft to download Apps, even free ones". If there was
ever a disincentive to migrate to using Win8 apps, this has to be the
winner.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <4dbe6d3e53....@mrc7acorn1.path.cam.ac.uk>, at
18:57:31 on Thu, 18 Apr 2013, Mike Clark <mrc7...@cam.ac.uk> remarked:

>if you install the Google Drive App on your iPad and on your PC you can
>synchronise the files via Google over wireless.

It seems like such a waste of bandwidth to upload a video to Google
Drive, then download it again, just to move it a foot across my desk -
when there's a perfectly good cable connecting the two machines already!

>Alternatively it is possible to buy an adapter that plugs into the
>connector port on the iPad and which takes sD cards.

I was rather surprised to find the iPad didn't have a MicroSD slot
already. Every smartphone and [other] tablet I've ever seen appears to
have one. What do people do when they fill up the internal storage?

(Don't answer that - they buy a bigger iPad of course).
--
Roland Perry

[Mark Goodge]

On Thu, 18 Apr 2013 19:02:50 +0100, Roland Perry put finger to keyboard and
typed:

>In message <Gqd*uV...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 18:37:20 on Thu,
>18 Apr 2013, Paul Gotch <pa...@at-cantab-dot.net> remarked:
>>> The iPad is connected to the PC with a USB cable, but there's nowhere on
>>> the iPad that will accept a file copy, and I can't see what app I'd use
>>> on the iPad to play it once transferred.
>>
>>Um the Videos app? The content will appear there once imported into
>>iTunes and synced.
>
>The iTunes app on the iPad doesn't appear to have any kind of import
>function.

The import function is in iTunes, as Paul said. You run iTunes on the host
PC or Mac to which you connect the iPad.

[Keith W]

They wise up and buy an Android tablet :)

Not only can I use any USB drive with it but using Samba
I can browse the shared folders on my Windows PC and
Linux NAS

Keith

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 18/04/13 19:29, Keith W wrote:

> Roland Perry wrote:
> They wise up and buy an Android tablet :) Not only can I use any USB
> drive with it but using Samba I can browse the shared folders on my
> Windows PC and Linux NAS

I have a couple of G3 macs I am thinking in covering in carpet to use
as cat scratching posts.

> Keith
>
>


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

[Roland Perry]

In message <a9e0n81r9472vetah...@news.markshouse.net>, at
19:20:39 on Thu, 18 Apr 2013, Mark Goodge
<use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> remarked:

>>The iTunes app on the iPad doesn't appear to have any kind of import
>>function.
>
>The import function is in iTunes, as Paul said. You run iTunes on the host
>PC or Mac to which you connect the iPad.

So it's more of an "export" then?
--
Roland Perry

[magwitch]

Talking of which in i-movies, how do you rotate a movie anti clockwise
filmed on a Nokia phone?

It's of my dogs playing in the snow and I have to lean painfully to
watch it properly.

[Paul Rudin]

Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> writes:


> It seems like such a waste of bandwidth ...

This is 2013 not 1993 :)

[Mark Goodge]

On Thu, 18 Apr 2013 19:42:52 +0100, Roland Perry put finger to keyboard and
typed:

Not really no. At least, not in the Apple mindset.

The hub of the entire system is iTunes. You import material into iTunes
from elsewhere, and then once it's in iTunes it's available to any device
connected to it So you're not exporting it from iTunes to an external
system: the connected device is part of the system that iTunes controls.

[Roland Perry]

In message <mjk0n8tqhc6nh2a1p...@news.markshouse.net>, at
21:09:20 on Thu, 18 Apr 2013, Mark Goodge

<use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>The iTunes app on the iPad doesn't appear to have any kind of import
>>>>function.
>>>
>>>The import function is in iTunes, as Paul said. You run iTunes on the host
>>>PC or Mac to which you connect the iPad.
>>
>>So it's more of an "export" then?
>
>Not really no. At least, not in the Apple mindset.
>
>The hub of the entire system is iTunes. You import material into iTunes
>from elsewhere, and then once it's in iTunes it's available to any device
>connected to it So you're not exporting it from iTunes to an external
>system: the connected device is part of the system that iTunes controls.

Having just achieved (in perhaps an hour of hands-on time, what should
have taken 20 seconds) the transfer it did indeed seems a lot like an
'export' from my PC's playlist/copy-of-the-video to the iPad's.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <87li8fk...@no-fixed-abode.cable.virginmedia.net>, at
20:52:09 on Thu, 18 Apr 2013, Paul Rudin <paul....@rudin.co.uk>
remarked:

>> It seems like such a waste of bandwidth ...
>
>This is 2013 not 1993 :)

As I have broadband at home, I suppose the 500MB concerned isn't too
much to write home about, but for my mobile account it would be half of
the month's allowance.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <a9e0n81r9472vetah...@news.markshouse.net>, at

19:20:39 on Thu, 18 Apr 2013, Mark Goodge
<use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> remarked:

>The import function is in iTunes, as Paul said. You run iTunes on the host
>PC or Mac to which you connect the iPad.

Still struggling here... obviously my mind works differently from Apple
designers.

Having loaded iTunes onto the PC, and connected the iPad, it demands
that I "authorise" the PC otherwise it will delete all the apps from the
iPad. Huh?

Anyway, to cut a long story short I did that (which requires knowing the
iTunes store password, something I was trying to avoid) and it seemed to
transfer a load of apps to my PC, which is frankly useless as they are
iPad apps. I've added the videos into my Library, but can't see how to
push them to the iPad.

After poking around the menus for about ten minutes it blue-screened and
reset my PC, which isn't something I've ever seen happen in over five
years.

...later, finally found some boxes to check and menus to tickle to do a
reverse-sync (PC to iPad). Much more buried than I was expecting, and
desperately non-user-friendly compared with a simple file copy (which is
all I need to do to other MP4 players).

--
Roland Perry

[Espen Koht]

In article <ksc0n8h84isnep5rq...@news.markshouse.net>,

Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:

> On Thu, 18 Apr 2013 17:25:59 +0100, Roland Perry put finger to keyboard and
> typed:
>
> >In message <uis*No...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 16:17:48 on Thu,
> >18 Apr 2013, John Burnham <jo...@jaka.demon.co.uk> remarked:
> >>> This has me stumped. I want to put an MP4 video that's on my PC onto an
> >>> iPad so it can be viewed from there.
> >>>
> >>> The iPad is connected to the PC with a USB cable, but there's nowhere on
> >>> the iPad that will accept a file copy, and I can't see what app I'd use
> >>> on the iPad to play it once transferred.
> >>>
> >>> No doubt I'm missing something obvious?
> >>
> >>Possibly. Remember iDevices want you to import your content into iTunes
> >>and then transfer it across using iTunes.
> >
> >Does that mean running a copy of iTunes on the PC then synching the iPad
> >with that?
>
> Yes.
>
> >I can't see anything within the iPad's iTunes app for
> >importing from anywhere other than their store.
>
> That's correct. An iThingy doesn't have the facility to import stuff on its
> own other than from the iTunes store.

Eh...so what about all that stuff in iTunes which isn't from the iTunes
Store? How did that end up on the iThingy?

> To put stuff on it from an external
> source requires iTunes on a host PC or Mac which can then push it to the
> iThingy.

Except, if you....download it from an email, a web-site, dropbox,
evernote etc.

[Espen Koht]

In article <kYWbt.9893$pP5....@fx24.fr7>,

Wow, just like AirAV, FileBrowser and numerous other iOS apps?

[Paul Rudin]

How is that relevant? Surely both devices in question would be using
your broadband?

[Mark Goodge]

On Thu, 18 Apr 2013 23:38:49 +0100, Espen Koht put finger to keyboard and
typed:

>In article <ksc0n8h84isnep5rq...@news.markshouse.net>,
> Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:

>> That's correct. An iThingy doesn't have the facility to import stuff on its
>> own other than from the iTunes store.
>
>Eh...so what about all that stuff in iTunes which isn't from the iTunes
>Store? How did that end up on the iThingy?

iTunes can import stuff from outside itself.

>> To put stuff on it from an external
>> source requires iTunes on a host PC or Mac which can then push it to the
>> iThingy.
>
>Except, if you....download it from an email, a web-site, dropbox,
>evernote etc.

That's another route, yes. But Roland was referring to copying it via USB
connection, which can only be done via iTunes.

[Roland Perry]

In message <87haj3j...@no-fixed-abode.cable.virginmedia.net>, at
06:03:09 on Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Paul Rudin <paul....@rudin.co.uk>

remarked:
>>>> It seems like such a waste of bandwidth ...
>>>
>>>This is 2013 not 1993 :)
>>
>> As I have broadband at home, I suppose the 500MB concerned isn't too
>> much to write home about, but for my mobile account it would be half
>> of the month's allowance.
>
>How is that relevant? Surely both devices in question would be using
>your broadband?

But next time I want to get a file to/from the iPad I may not be at home
(it is, after all, designed to be portable).
--
Roland Perry

[Andrew May]

On 18/04/2013 19:02, Roland Perry wrote:

> Actually, I can "see" a few photo files via the USB, but it won't let me
> write additional files or create new directories.
>

The photos that you can see via the USB are probably ones taken by the
iPad camera. For the purposes of being a camera it will act much like
any other digital camera via USB and you can import these pictures into
any photo package that supports the functionality to do so.

[Andrew May]

Doesn't this relate to transferring via Google Drive which involves
uploading to Google servers and then downloading to the iPad which
involves transfer over the Internet in both directions.

[John Burnham]

On Thu, 18 Apr 2013 19:42:52 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

> So it's more of an "export" then?

It all depends on your point of view, one man's export is another man's
import.

[Espen Koht]

In article <MUo6HHM9...@perry.co.uk>,

True, but it *is* designed to be connected.

[Roland Perry]

In message <W7q*Ra...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 09:30:36 on Fri,
19 Apr 2013, John Burnham <jo...@jaka.demon.co.uk> remarked:

>> So it's more of an "export" then?
>
>It all depends on your point of view, one man's export is another man's
>import.

Having successfully done this now, it's actually a "sync", which has
major implications, far beyond transferring the file that was the
original objective.

For example I now have only the one desktop PC set up to "talk to" the
iPad, and iTunes seem keen to ask me about sending all sorts of other
multimedia that was co-incidentally on that PC up to the iPad. And as I
described yesterday it seems to have transferred the apps from the iPad
onto the PC without ever asking me if that was what I intended.

If I want to transfer stuff from somewhere else, it seems I have to go
through the entire process all over again.

What I really needed was an app which turns the iPad into a big
memory-stick (including giving access to wherever iTunes is squirreling
away these files).
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <ehk20-956C77....@nnrp.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at
09:32:00 on Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Espen Koht <eh...@cam.ac.uk> remarked:

>> But next time I want to get a file to/from the iPad I may not be at home
>> (it is, after all, designed to be portable).
>
>True, but it *is* designed to be connected.

Connected to what, though? In my current state of awareness only "a PC
I'm prepared to run iTunes on, and which has been logged into my iTunes
account".

That's not terribly useful if next time I want to transfer the file from
a random semi-stranger's laptop.
--
Roland Perry

[Tim Ward]

You could get a real computer instead of an iThingy, then it's just drag
and drop from anywhere to anywhere.

--
Tim Ward
www.brettward.co.uk

[Espen Koht]

In article <Z90vNQTOTQcRFAP$@perry.co.uk>,

Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:

> In message <ehk20-956C77....@nnrp.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at
> 09:32:00 on Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Espen Koht <eh...@cam.ac.uk> remarked:
> >> But next time I want to get a file to/from the iPad I may not be at home
> >> (it is, after all, designed to be portable).
> >
> >True, but it *is* designed to be connected.
>
> Connected to what, though?

A network of pedants.

> In my current state of awareness only "a PC
> I'm prepared to run iTunes on, and which has been logged into my iTunes
> account".
>
> That's not terribly useful if next time I want to transfer the file from
> a random semi-stranger's laptop.

The model assumes you will both be 'connected' ('to the Internet', for
those slow on the uptake).

[Andrew May]

On 19/04/2013 09:46, Roland Perry wrote:

> What I really needed was an app which turns the iPad into a big
> memory-stick (including giving access to wherever iTunes is squirreling
> away these files).

In that case do take a look at the app that I pointed to earlier:

https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/photo-manager-pro/id393858562?mt=8

not a memory stick but an ftp server which at the very least is the next
best thing. You can continue to use the built in photo viewer if you
want to.

[Roland Perry]

In message <atcf3v...@mid.individual.net>, at 09:55:27 on Fri, 19
Apr 2013, Tim Ward <t...@brettward.co.uk> remarked:

>You could get a real computer instead of an iThingy, then it's just
>drag and drop from anywhere to anywhere.

We have an iPad (and also Android devices) because we need them for our
work.

But this is the first time I've had to transfer a file to/from the iPad,
and it's the also the first portable device I've had that didn't just
spring into life emulating a memory stick (apart from its camera photos,
where it does - I agree with the earlier poster on that).

What I don't have nor require, is a Mac laptop or desktop.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <atcgcg...@mid.individual.net>, at 10:16:57 on Fri, 19
Apr 2013, Andrew May <andrew...@hotmail.com> remarked:

Thanks, I'll give that a go when the iPad returns from its travels.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <ehk20-0163C3....@nnrp.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at
10:01:12 on Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Espen Koht <eh...@cam.ac.uk> remarked:

>> That's not terribly useful if next time I want to transfer the file from
>> a random semi-stranger's laptop.
>
>The model assumes you will both be 'connected' ('to the Internet', for
>those slow on the uptake).

Yes, but the iPad is likely to be connected by expensive 3G, if I'm in
the situation above. Or possibly by wifi, assuming a free one can be
found.

In fact, both the iPad and my Android Smartphone are typically only
'connected' when I'm at home and using my broadband [wifi].

Mobile broadband is often slow as well as expensive [I did try using the
Android phone on 3G yesterday while I was waiting at the dentist - it
eventually downloaded all of 3MB in 20 minutes (mainly Twitter) plus a
couple of half-pages of www.bbc.co.uk before I gave up].
--
Roland Perry

[Robin Fairbairns]

to the pure apple, everything is a pure apple.

i've a new ipad, and my ears pricked up in merry anticipation when i saw
your post.

they're drooping a bit now... :-(

(i actually quite like my ipad, but really...)
--
Robin Fairbairns, Cambridge
i really am trying to cut down, what with this >1000 post backlog and all

[Tim Ward]

On 19/04/2013 13:35, Robin Fairbairns wrote:
>
> to the pure apple, everything is a pure apple.
>
> i've a new ipad, and my ears pricked up in merry anticipation when i saw
> your post.
>
> they're drooping a bit now... :-(
>
> (i actually quite like my ipad, but really...)

Perhaps part of "pure apple" is "what you are and are not allowed to do
with it"?

--
Tim Ward
www.brettward.co.uk

[Espen H. Koht]

In article <atcs5o...@mid.individual.net>,

I jail-broke my fist iPhone, almost as a matter of principle, but
haven't bothered with my new one. The only reason I would do it now
would be to access the wifi API which for some reason is restricted, but
apart from that I've not really encountered a usage scenario where I
feel encumbered.

[Ben Hutchings]

On 2013-04-19, Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:
[...]

> What I really needed was an app which turns the iPad into a big
> memory-stick (including giving access to wherever iTunes is squirreling
> away these files).

Be careful what you wish for.

Do you really want the iPad to store all its files on a VFAT
filesystem? That is the only filesystem you can assume that most
computers will be able to read and write on 'a big memory-stick'.

Do you want to shut down all iPad applications while accessing files
from the computer? Because you can't safely have multiple computers
directly accessing the same filesystem at once (unless it was designed
a cluster filesystem).

Some kind of file share/transfer protocol (MTP, SMB, FTP, etc.) makes
far more sense for a smartphone or tablet.

Ben.

--
Ben Hutchings
We get into the habit of living before acquiring the habit of thinking.
- Albert Camus

[Richard Kettlewell]

Ben Hutchings <ben-publ...@decadent.org.uk> writes:

> Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>> What I really needed was an app which turns the iPad into a big
>> memory-stick (including giving access to wherever iTunes is squirreling
>> away these files).
>
> Be careful what you wish for.
>
> Do you really want the iPad to store all its files on a VFAT
> filesystem? That is the only filesystem you can assume that most
> computers will be able to read and write on 'a big memory-stick'.
>
> Do you want to shut down all iPad applications while accessing files
> from the computer? Because you can't safely have multiple computers
> directly accessing the same filesystem at once (unless it was designed
> a cluster filesystem).
>
> Some kind of file share/transfer protocol (MTP, SMB, FTP, etc.) makes
> far more sense for a smartphone or tablet.

While I do agree with the last remark, my phone has the behavior Roland
asks for, with the implications you describe; I don’t find they bother
me much.

--
http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

[Roland Perry]

In message <slrnkn328u.2hs.b...@decadent.org.uk>, at
19:12:46 on Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Ben Hutchings
<ben-publ...@decadent.org.uk> remarked:

>On 2013-04-19, Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>[...]
>> What I really needed was an app which turns the iPad into a big
>> memory-stick (including giving access to wherever iTunes is squirreling
>> away these files).
>
>Be careful what you wish for.
>
>Do you really want the iPad to store all its files on a VFAT
>filesystem? That is the only filesystem you can assume that most
>computers will be able to read and write on 'a big memory-stick'.

Why can't there be a driver for the remote filesystem (stored on a small
FAT filesystem). The iPad already gives access to its camera pictures in
a PC-compatible file system.

>Do you want to shut down all iPad applications while accessing files
>from the computer? Because you can't safely have multiple computers
>directly accessing the same filesystem at once (unless it was designed
>a cluster filesystem).

This doesn't seem to worry any other tablet/smartphone/MP4-player I've
seen.

--
Roland Perry

[Ben Hutchings]

On 2013-04-19, Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <slrnkn328u.2hs.b...@decadent.org.uk>, at
> 19:12:46 on Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Ben Hutchings
><ben-publ...@decadent.org.uk> remarked:
>>On 2013-04-19, Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>[...]
>>> What I really needed was an app which turns the iPad into a big
>>> memory-stick (including giving access to wherever iTunes is squirreling
>>> away these files).
>>
>>Be careful what you wish for.
>>
>>Do you really want the iPad to store all its files on a VFAT
>>filesystem? That is the only filesystem you can assume that most
>>computers will be able to read and write on 'a big memory-stick'.
>
> Why can't there be a driver for the remote filesystem (stored on a small
> FAT filesystem).

I think you underestimate the cost of developing and supporting a
Windows IFS.

> The iPad already gives access to its camera pictures in
> a PC-compatible file system.

I don't know, but I bet it does that by implementing PTP (Picture
Transfer Protocol) rather than UMS, and relying on PTP support in
the operating system.

>>Do you want to shut down all iPad applications while accessing files
>>from the computer? Because you can't safely have multiple computers
>>directly accessing the same filesystem at once (unless it was designed
>>a cluster filesystem).
>
> This doesn't seem to worry any other tablet/smartphone/MP4-player I've
> seen.

See my response to Richard Kettlewell.

[Ben Hutchings]

I suspect your phone is running an older version of Android, just like
my phone. This is bearable because storage is divided into two flash
devices or partitions ('system' and 'SD card') and applications are
normally installed in 'system' storage. But that means you have twice
as many choices in managing storage space, and also have to trade-off
security (there are no file access controls on the 'SD card' since
VFAT doesn't support them).

Another problem with using UMS or other block-based protocol is that
they invalidate any index files created by a media player. The media
player has to re-scan the whole filesystem after it's unmounted from
the computer. Exactly how painful this is depends on the speed of the
processor and flash storage.

[Mark Goodge]

On Fri, 19 Apr 2013 10:23:30 +0100, Roland Perry put finger to keyboard and
typed:

>In message <atcf3v...@mid.individual.net>, at 09:55:27 on Fri, 19
>Apr 2013, Tim Ward <t...@brettward.co.uk> remarked:
>
>>You could get a real computer instead of an iThingy, then it's just
>>drag and drop from anywhere to anywhere.
>
>We have an iPad (and also Android devices) because we need them for our
>work.
>
>But this is the first time I've had to transfer a file to/from the iPad,
>and it's the also the first portable device I've had that didn't just
>spring into life emulating a memory stick (apart from its camera photos,
>where it does - I agree with the earlier poster on that).

In my observation, people tend to consider Apple's centralisation of media
management in iTunes either their killer app or their suicide app. If
you're an Apple fan[1] then the seamlessness of managing everything through
a unified interface (especially if you're also using iCloud to do so
remotely) makes for a consistent and intuitive user experience that Android
devices simply cannot match. But if you prefer your computational devices
to act more-or-less independently and communicate with each other directly
through standard, if more limited, interfaces (such as drag-and-drop over
USB), then Apple's approach will leave you tearing your hair out.

I used to have an iPhone, but I upgraded to an Android phone precisely
because I want to be able to transfer media files to it, from multiple
computers, without needing iTunes as an intermediary. I now also have an
Android tablet and can't see any reason why I'd want to replace it (or even
augment it) with an iPad[2]. But, on the other hand, the iPhone was
incredibly simple to learn to use, even though it was my first smartphone.
By contrast, Android took more time to get to grips with, despite by then
already being familiar with the smartphone milieu. The two are aimed at
different markets, and you and I both happen to be in the one that Apple
isn't aiming at.

[1] I'll resist the temptation to add "boi" here.

[2] I may possibly be acquiring an iPad for work-related purposes sometime
in the future, but that's not really an issue because I won't use it for
personal stuff - I'll just let the work software manage it.

[Keith W]

Yes and No

AirAV is a DNLA player , it doesnt let you download the movie
to your iPAD, DNLA is built in Android as standard

FileBrowser lets you access stuff on other systems but doesnt
let you move files off other ios apps to the network

Android uses a Unix style kernel, you ca do anything you damm
well want and when its MY machine thats what I expect.

Keith

[Keith W]

Ben Hutchings wrote:
> On 2013-04-19, Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <slrnkn328u.2hs.b...@decadent.org.uk>, at
>> 19:12:46 on Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Ben Hutchings
>> <ben-publ...@decadent.org.uk> remarked:
>>> On 2013-04-19, Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> [...]
>>>> What I really needed was an app which turns the iPad into a big
>>>> memory-stick (including giving access to wherever iTunes is
>>>> squirreling away these files).
>>>
>>> Be careful what you wish for.
>>>
>>> Do you really want the iPad to store all its files on a VFAT
>>> filesystem? That is the only filesystem you can assume that most
>>> computers will be able to read and write on 'a big memory-stick'.
>>
>> Why can't there be a driver for the remote filesystem (stored on a
>> small FAT filesystem).
>
> I think you underestimate the cost of developing and supporting a
> Windows IFS.
>

Android 4 seems to handle that just fine, both FAT and NTFS are
recognized with no problems

Keith

[Ben Hutchings]

You mean it can work with an SD card formatted as NTFS? That's a bit
surprising becaause Linux only supports NTFS through FUSE (which is
slow) or else a read-only kernel implementation. It certainly
wouldn't be usable for the system partition, so it doesn't solve the
split-storage issue.

But you're really reinforcing my point which is that block-based
protocols practically mean that devices must use a filesystem that
other computers already support. Assuming that the other computers
mostly run Windows, NTFS could be an option, but it's not a good fit
for a Linux-based device. And I don't know that it would work so well
if you connected the device to a Mac.

[Paul Gotch]

Keith W <keithnosp...@demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > I think you underestimate the cost of developing and supporting a
> > Windows IFS.
> >

> Android 4 seems to handle that just fine, both FAT and NTFS are
> recognized with no problems

I think you mean that the Linux kernel which the Android kernel is
based on can read both FAT and NTFS memory cards. That is not what
Ben's point was. In order for Windows itself to support file systems
other than FAT32, exFAT and NTFS you must develop and distribute an
Installable File System (IFS) driver.

It is much harder to do this for Windows than for Linux due to not
having the source for the rest of the kernel available for debugging
when things go wrong there are also licensing complexitites.

Additionally in some environment you may be able to install user level
programs but be restrited from installing kernel level drivers which
do not already come with Windows.

For recent versions of Windows IFS driver must be signed by Microsoft,
this along costs thousands of dollars each time it is submitted for
testing and possible signing.

-p
--
Paul Gotch
--------------------------------------------------------------------

[Paul Gotch]

Keith W <keithnosp...@demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Android uses a Unix style kernel, you ca do anything you damm
> well want and when its MY machine thats what I expect.

No you can't you can't do anything to the airside interface or anything
that else that's behind the secure monitor. On most Android devices the
kernel is signed and subject to secure boot so you can't recompile it
and replace it with a version of your own devising.

I'm sorry but most of the 'openness' around Android is illusionary.

[Roland Perry]

In message <slrnkn367e.2hs.b...@decadent.org.uk>, at
20:20:14 on Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Ben Hutchings
<ben-publ...@decadent.org.uk> remarked:

>> Why can't there be a driver for the remote filesystem (stored on a small
>> FAT filesystem).
>
>I think you underestimate the cost of developing and supporting a
>Windows IFS.

Apple understands the iPad end of things, and every other MP4 player
designer in the world understands the Windows end of things.

>> The iPad already gives access to its camera pictures in
>> a PC-compatible file system.
>
>I don't know, but I bet it does that by implementing PTP (Picture
>Transfer Protocol) rather than UMS, and relying on PTP support in
>the operating system.

Would Win-XP support that - I could check and see if the camera photos
are visible (when the iPad returns).
--
Roland Perry

[Duncan Wood]

On Sat, 20 Apr 2013 01:04:13 +0100, Paul Gotch <pa...@at-cantab-dot.net>
wrote:

That's obviously why Apple haven't done it then.

[Roland Perry]

In message <de73n85ie1f823bnv...@news.markshouse.net>, at
20:55:20 on Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Mark Goodge
<use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> remarked:

>In my observation, people tend to consider Apple's centralisation of media
>management in iTunes either their killer app or their suicide app. If
>you're an Apple fan[1] then the seamlessness of managing everything through
>a unified interface (especially if you're also using iCloud to do so
>remotely) makes for a consistent and intuitive user experience that Android
>devices simply cannot match. But if you prefer your computational devices
>to act more-or-less independently and communicate with each other directly
>through standard, if more limited, interfaces (such as drag-and-drop over
>USB), then Apple's approach will leave you tearing your hair out.

I don't mind the iTunes paradigm, but that shouldn't exclude the
possibility of a folder within the iPad (accessible via the USB) into
which items of media can be placed from the outside world, and
played/viewed on the iPad.
--
Roland Perry

[Tim Ward]

On 20/04/2013 01:12, Paul Gotch wrote:
>
> No you can't you can't do anything to the airside interface

Don't think you'd want to, the testing and approval process is non-trivial.

--
Tim Ward
www.brettward.co.uk

[Keith W]

Paul Gotch wrote:
> Keith W <keithnosp...@demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> Android uses a Unix style kernel, you ca do anything you damm
>> well want and when its MY machine thats what I expect.
>
> No you can't you can't do anything to the airside interface or
> anything that else that's behind the secure monitor. On most Android
> devices the kernel is signed and subject to secure boot so you can't
> recompile it and replace it with a version of your own devising.
>

That rather depends on the manufacturer. I have an Asus TF 102
and you can indeed unlock the secure boot and switch to development
mode. They even support a reflash option where you can reflash
the ROM with a download from an official Asus FTP Server
and reinstall the stock distribution


Keith

[Keith W]

Tim Ward wrote:
> On 20/04/2013 01:12, Paul Gotch wrote:
>>
>> No you can't you can't do anything to the airside interface
>
> Don't think you'd want to, the testing and approval process is
> non-trivial.

There's a significant developer community producing alternate
kernels just as there in for Linux , most of those who install
non stock versions go for the Cyanogen versions

Keith

[Ben Hutchings]

On 2013-04-20, Tim Ward <t...@brettward.co.uk> wrote:
> On 20/04/2013 01:12, Paul Gotch wrote:
>>
>> No you can't you can't do anything to the airside interface
>
> Don't think you'd want to, the testing and approval process is non-trivial.

Not so much if you also run the network. Which, for GSM at least, is
not too hard now.

[Tim Ward]

On 20/04/2013 20:10, Ben Hutchings wrote:
>
> Not so much if you also run the network. Which, for GSM at least, is
> not too hard now.

Well, I've got a GSM network in this room, if I choose to switch it on :-)

--
Tim Ward
www.brettward.co.uk

[The Luggage]

On Apr 18, 7:13 pm, Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:

> I was rather surprised to find the iPad didn't have a MicroSD slot
> already. Every smartphone and [other] tablet I've ever seen appears to
> have one. What do people do when they fill up the internal storage?
>
> (Don't answer that - they buy a bigger iPad of course).

The current offerings from other big players have gone down the same
route. The Kindle Fire range, and Google Nexus 10 (to take just 2
examples) also don't have SD slots.

You're supposed to use the connectivity options and move everything to
'the cloud'. No mention of how much it will cost you to store >32 Gb
of stuff in the cloud, of course...

TL

[Alan]

On Mon, 22 Apr 2013 13:47:24 +0100, The Luggage
<alan.p....@googlemail.com> wrote:

>
> You're supposed to use the connectivity options and move everything to
> 'the cloud'. No mention of how much it will cost you to store >32 Gb
> of stuff in the cloud, of course...
>

And of course if you're paranoid, worry about which foreign governments
have routine access to that data.

--
Alan

To Reply, use e-s.news AT ourmailbox.org.uk in a sensible manner....

[John Burnham]

On Mon, 22 Apr 2013 14:09:24 +0100, Alan wrote:

> On Mon, 22 Apr 2013 13:47:24 +0100, The Luggage
> <alan.p....@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>
>> You're supposed to use the connectivity options and move everything to
>> 'the cloud'. No mention of how much it will cost you to store >32 Gb of
>> stuff in the cloud, of course...
>>
>>
> And of course if you're paranoid, worry about which foreign governments
> have routine access to that data.

That why you want to run your own "cloud". (Am I the only one who is
utterly sick of this meaningless piece of jargon ?)

[Alan]

On Mon, 22 Apr 2013 14:11:00 +0100, John Burnham <jo...@jaka.demon.co.uk>

Do iPads & Kindles allow uploading to unspecified "clouds" (and yes I
agree with your dislike)?

Don't need either - so really don't know.

[John Burnham]

On Mon, 22 Apr 2013 14:26:29 +0100, Alan wrote:

>
> Do iPads & Kindles allow uploading to unspecified "clouds" (and yes I
> agree with your dislike)?
>
> Don't need either - so really don't know.

Depends on what you use. Owncloud has clients for both iOS and Android
(and Windows and OS X and Linux). (http://owncloud.org)

J

[Roland Perry]

In message <Sex*52...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 14:11:00 on Mon,
22 Apr 2013, John Burnham <jo...@jaka.demon.co.uk> remarked:

>>
>>> You're supposed to use the connectivity options and move everything to
>>> 'the cloud'. No mention of how much it will cost you to store >32 Gb of
>>> stuff in the cloud, of course...
>>>
>> And of course if you're paranoid, worry about which foreign governments
>> have routine access to that data.
>
>That why you want to run your own "cloud". (Am I the only one who is
>utterly sick of this meaningless piece of jargon ?)

It's not meaningless, it's a perfectly well understood bit of
technology, even if one that a lot of people might choose not to use if
they fully understood the implications.
--
Roland Perry

[John Burnham]

On Mon, 22 Apr 2013 15:17:04 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

>
> It's not meaningless, it's a perfectly well understood bit of
> technology, even if one that a lot of people might choose not to use if
> they fully understood the implications.

I posit that it has lost all meaning due to overuse and misuse. This can
be demonstrated by the "Oracle have named a release after it" theory.
First we had Oracle 8i & 9i (for Internet), 10g and 11g (for Grid) and
now 12c (for Cloud). It's become a fashionable buzzword.

[Espen H. Koht]

In article <yfOFlWJg...@perry.co.uk>,

I get sales pitches every other week from people who either don't
understand why they technology they are trying to sell isn't 'cloud'
technology or are counting on the customer not understanding it, so in
terms of its usage in the industry, I would agree that it is close to
useless.

[John Burnham]

On Mon, 22 Apr 2013 15:41:10 +0100, Espen H. Koht wrote:

> I get sales pitches every other week from people who either don't
> understand why they technology they are trying to sell isn't 'cloud'
> technology or are counting on the customer not understanding it, so in
> terms of its usage in the industry, I would agree that it is close to
> useless.

I'm glad someone else is getting sick of its overuse. It's like the whole
"client/server model" stuff from <mumblety> years ago except that at
least never filtered out to the whole population, it was just us poor IT
grunts that got sick to the back teeth of it. Oh well, if history
repeats, the whole cloud furore will bugger off soon enough and then we
can make up the next stupid word for Oracle to attach to its next
version. I personally propose 13p (p for prepuce).

[Roland Perry]

In message <Uex*Kl...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 15:39:14 on Mon,

22 Apr 2013, John Burnham <jo...@jaka.demon.co.uk> remarked:

>> It's not meaningless, it's a perfectly well understood bit of
>> technology, even if one that a lot of people might choose not to use if
>> they fully understood the implications.
>
>I posit that it has lost all meaning due to overuse and misuse. This can
>be demonstrated by the "Oracle have named a release after it" theory.
>First we had Oracle 8i & 9i (for Internet), 10g and 11g (for Grid) and
>now 12c (for Cloud). It's become a fashionable buzzword.

Maybe cloud services are so common that almost anything is now a cloud,
rather than a single identifiable server. Especially the larger
consumer-facing products.

But that doesn't stop them being clouds. One of the main features being
that you can't put your finger on one exclusive server that has you data
on it.
--
Roland Perry

[John Burnham]

On Mon, 22 Apr 2013 15:49:10 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

>
> But that doesn't stop them being clouds. One of the main features being
> that you can't put your finger on one exclusive server that has you data
> on it.

I would hope not, that would be a single point of failure. We've been
designing systems that were "cloud" for years now without calling them
that. But now everything has to involve the word "cloud", even if it's
not - hence the term has lost any real meaning until people stop
overusing it. Meanwhile, the rest of us will shrug our shoulders at the
marketing eejits using it without understanding what it actually means.

[Roland Perry]

In message <Vex*zn...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 15:47:03 on Mon,

22 Apr 2013, John Burnham <jo...@jaka.demon.co.uk> remarked:

Clouds are a different (and more pernicious) animal on account of the
cross-border nature. DPA issues etc.

--
Roland Perry

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 22/04/13 14:11, John Burnham wrote:
> (Am I the only one who is utterly sick of this meaningless piece of
> jargon ?)

no. thank god 'push' and 'pull' technology died the death.

--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

[The Natural Philosopher]

'online shared storage' means more

[Roland Perry]

In message <Sex*fr...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 16:02:44 on Mon,

22 Apr 2013, John Burnham <jo...@jaka.demon.co.uk> remarked:

>> But that doesn't stop them being clouds. One of the main features being
>> that you can't put your finger on one exclusive server that has you data
>> on it.
>
>I would hope not, that would be a single point of failure. We've been
>designing systems that were "cloud" for years now without calling them
>that.

If such a cloud crossed national borders, which is the main reason
people are worried about "clouds", then you were probably guilty of not
keeping your customers abreast of the data protection (and law
enforcement snooping) implications.

And there's a big difference between having your data held in well
defined, multiple redundant locations, versus sprayed in multiple copies
randomly all over the world.
--
Roland Perry

[John Burnham]

On Mon, 22 Apr 2013 16:09:11 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:
>
> Clouds are a different (and more pernicious) animal on account of the
> cross-border nature. DPA issues etc.

Only if they are.... I can perfectly happily run a cloud system without
any cross border interactions. And why are they any different with
regards to DPA than any other "non-cloud" system ? You seem to be
focusing on public clouds, which are only a subset of cloud systems.

[John Burnham]

On Mon, 22 Apr 2013 16:21:53 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 22/04/13 14:11, John Burnham wrote:
>> (Am I the only one who is utterly sick of this meaningless piece of
>> jargon ?)
>
> no. thank god 'push' and 'pull' technology died the death.

You still hear those terms used occasionally, but, yeah - another set of
over and misused terms that I was glad to see the back of.

[John Burnham]

On Mon, 22 Apr 2013 16:20:32 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:


> If such a cloud crossed national borders, which is the main reason
> people are worried about "clouds", then you were probably guilty of not
> keeping your customers abreast of the data protection (and law
> enforcement snooping) implications.

Why ? I think you are focusing on a very narrow subset of what cloud
computing is. Who said any of the stuff was public ? Or crossed national
borders ? Cloud computing, when it boils down to it is merely:

"... the use of computing resources (hardware and software) that are
delivered as a service over a network."

>
> And there's a big difference between having your data held in well
> defined, multiple redundant locations, versus sprayed in multiple copies
> randomly all over the world.

Yes. Yes, there is. And ?

[Roland Perry]

In message <Vex*Xy...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 16:35:35 on Mon,

22 Apr 2013, John Burnham <jo...@jaka.demon.co.uk> remarked:

>> If such a cloud crossed national borders, which is the main reason
>> people are worried about "clouds", then you were probably guilty of not
>> keeping your customers abreast of the data protection (and law
>> enforcement snooping) implications.
>
>Why ? I think you are focusing on a very narrow subset of what cloud
>computing is. Who said any of the stuff was public ? Or crossed national
>borders ? Cloud computing, when it boils down to it is merely:
>
>"... the use of computing resources (hardware and software) that are
>delivered as a service over a network."

That's an extremely minimalistic definition, and not one embraced by the
majority of people talking about cloud computing.

>> And there's a big difference between having your data held in well
>> defined, multiple redundant locations, versus sprayed in multiple copies
>> randomly all over the world.
>
>Yes. Yes, there is. And ?

The first is redundant datacentres, where typically *all* your data is
at *every* one of a number of known locations.

Could computing is distributing that data amongst a large number of
undisclosed locations, some of (for obvious reasons I won't say "each
of") which have a small part of your data.

What's being distributed redundantly is mainly the server [processing]
power and connectivity, plus local caches for appropriate frequently
accessed material, rather than because multiple [full] copies of the
data make it less easy to lose. Although there may be some of the latter
involved in the form of a wide-area RAID (for want of a better label).
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <Vex*Ow...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 16:26:27 on Mon,

22 Apr 2013, John Burnham <jo...@jaka.demon.co.uk> remarked:

>> Clouds are a different (and more pernicious) animal on account of the
>> cross-border nature. DPA issues etc.
>
>Only if they are.... I can perfectly happily run a cloud system without
>any cross border interactions.

And some vendors have those, and some users specify them, although too
many don't know they should be.

>And why are they any different with regards to DPA than any other
>"non-cloud" system ? You seem to be focusing on public clouds, which
>are only a subset of cloud systems.

The vast majority of the concern about "clouds" arises from public ones,
where neither the users nor the regulators are sufficiently sure which
jurisdiction the data is in, and how safe it is from eavesdropping and
similar risks.

What you do in private is your concern, but it's not what all the fuss
is about.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <Sex*+wv...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 16:27:52 on Mon,

22 Apr 2013, John Burnham <jo...@jaka.demon.co.uk> remarked:

>>thank god 'push' and 'pull' technology died the death.
>
>You still hear those terms used occasionally, but, yeah - another set of
>over and misused terms that I was glad to see the back of.

Push vs Pull still has some legitimate influence over content
regulation. eg Sky PPV movies is Pull whereas the regular
programming is Push.

In terms of websites, it's probably true that 99% of what you pull is
what you want, and 99% of what is pushed, you don't.
--
Roland Perry

[Tim Ward]

On 22/04/2013 17:25, Roland Perry wrote:
>
> In terms of websites, it's probably true that 99% of what you pull is
> what you want, and 99% of what is pushed, you don't.

"Push AJAX" (which is of course a "pull" technology) is useful in some
cases!

--
Tim Ward
www.brettward.co.uk

[Lyndsay]

On Thursday, 18 April 2013 20:46:43 UTC+1, magwitch wrote:
> Espen H. Koht wrote:
>
> > In article <ipDh4tDS...@perry.co.uk>,
>
> > Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >
>
> >> This has me stumped. I want to put an MP4 video that's on my PC onto an
>
> >> iPad so it can be viewed from there.
>
> >>
>
> >> The iPad is connected to the PC with a USB cable, but there's nowhere on
>
> >> the iPad that will accept a file copy, and I can't see what app I'd use
>
> >> on the iPad to play it once transferred.
>
> >>
>
> >> No doubt I'm missing something obvious?
>
> >
>
> > If you don't want to involve a third-party server, the obvious answer is
>
> > to use iTunes.
>
>
>
> Talking of which in i-movies, how do you rotate a movie anti clockwise
>
> filmed on a Nokia phone?
>
>
>
> It's of my dogs playing in the snow and I have to lean painfully to
>
> watch it properly.

Hi Magwitch,

Re rotate a video from portrait to landscape, I use the free Microsoft Windows Movie Maker,
see "rotate" function

http://www.7tutorials.com/rotating-videos-windows-live-movie-maker-2011

Lyn

[bob]

On 2013-04-20 07:10:07 +0000, Roland Perry said:

> In message <de73n85ie1f823bnv...@news.markshouse.net>, at
> 20:55:20 on Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Mark Goodge
> <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> remarked:
>> In my observation, people tend to consider Apple's centralisation of media
>> management in iTunes either their killer app or their suicide app. If
>> you're an Apple fan[1] then the seamlessness of managing everything through
>> a unified interface (especially if you're also using iCloud to do so
>> remotely) makes for a consistent and intuitive user experience that Android
>> devices simply cannot match. But if you prefer your computational devices
>> to act more-or-less independently and communicate with each other directly
>> through standard, if more limited, interfaces (such as drag-and-drop over
>> USB), then Apple's approach will leave you tearing your hair out.
>
> I don't mind the iTunes paradigm, but that shouldn't exclude the
> possibility of a folder within the iPad (accessible via the USB) into
> which items of media can be placed from the outside world, and
> played/viewed on the iPad.

I think the Apple Fanboi answer there is "there's an app for that" (a
quick google turns up lots of examples, many of which are free).

The problem with the iPad for people like your average cam.miscer is
that we know how computers really work, and want something that marries
both the nice form factor of the iPad and functionality that it does
provide, but also does all the sorts of things that a regular computer
can do.

This is certainly not the target market Apple made the iPad (and other
iDevices) for. They figured that people who wanted a full computer
able to do full computer things already had one, and if they were going
to find a market for a new category of device, they wanted one that
would not intimidate people who are intimidated by "proper" computers
and, more importantly, would provide such people with access to the
internet and things they want to do, without exposing them to the kinds
of security risks that more fully featured computers would present.
After all I access my file system, you mess about with my files and
settings, he hacks my computer and installs malware. To prevent the
very naive user from falling foul of malware, they also kept people
like cam.miscers out of their file systems. I suppose you could regard
the challenge of jailbreaking devices works as a reasonable "competence
test". If you know enough about what you are doing to actually
jailbreak the device and have access to the computational innards, you
probably know enough to use it safely.

Robin

[Tim Ward]

On 22/04/2013 19:20, bob wrote:
>
> they wanted one that would
> not intimidate people who are intimidated by "proper" computers

Thought that's what the Mac was for?

--
Tim Ward
www.brettward.co.uk

[magwitch]

Thanks Lyndsay... I'll give it a go. But will it work on a Mac G5? Or
would I have to give it to Leo to do for me?

[The Natural Philosopher]

no windows there Lyn. Mac or Linux.

Can ptobably sort magwitch out with something.

[Paul Rudin]

Tim Ward <t...@brettward.co.uk> writes:

> On 22/04/2013 19:20, bob wrote:
>>
>> they wanted one that would
>> not intimidate people who are intimidated by "proper" computers
>
> Thought that's what the Mac was for?

No, that's what windows is for ;-)

[Rupert Moss-Eccardt]

I think you have made a mistake in focusing on data.
There are a number of 'cloud' AV offerings that don't fit the model you
describe here.

[John Burnham]

On Tue, 23 Apr 2013 08:42:44 +0100, Rupert Moss-Eccardt wrote:

>
> I think you have made a mistake in focusing on data. There are a number
> of 'cloud' AV offerings that don't fit the model you describe here.

Indeed. I would be interested to hear what Roland's definition of cloud
computing is. It would obviously need to cover the basics - SaaS, IaaS,
MSP, web services, utility computing. But it's obvious that his
definition isn't the one I'm thinking of.
Ah, my old mates at OED have got round to writing their definition:

" cloud computing n. the use of networked facilities for the storage and
processing of data rather than a user's local computer, access to data or
services typically being via the Internet; cf. grid computing n. at grid
n. Additions. "

Hmm. Looks very similar to mine :) Services provided over a network is
what it boils down to.

J

[John Burnham]

On Mon, 22 Apr 2013 17:13:06 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

>

> The vast majority of the concern about "clouds" arises from public ones,
> where neither the users nor the regulators are sufficiently sure which
> jurisdiction the data is in, and how safe it is from eavesdropping and
> similar risks.
>
> What you do in private is your concern, but it's not what all the fuss
> is about.

What fuss ? You seem to be only one talking about fuss. I'm just tired of
another stupid, overused piece of jargon.

J

[Espen Koht]

In article <KZq*bh...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>,

At the point you have it boiled down to 'services provided over a
network' your cloud has evaporated.

[The Natural Philosopher]

I think not. 'cloud' has forever been used to define a server or
services 'somewhere on the (inter)net' whose actual physical location
and makeup is not defined, nor needs to be.

As far as you are concerned it is an endpoint tied to an IP address and
port. For which you have somne rights of access.

[John Burnham]

Pretty much. That's why I think the term is overused - it's been diluted
to the point of uselessness by people appropriating it so that their new
offering can be latest-buzzword-compliant.

J

[Rupert Moss-Eccardt]

The late, great, Roger Needham described 'distributed computing' as "not
being able to do something because a computer in a place you didn't know
existed isn't working"

[The Luggage]

On Apr 22, 7:20 pm, bob <rcp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2013-04-20 07:10:07 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>

[...]

> This is certainly not the target market Apple made the iPad (and other
> iDevices) for.  They figured that people who wanted a full computer
> able to do full computer things already had one, and if they were going
> to find a market for a new category of device, they wanted one that
> would not intimidate people who are intimidated by "proper" computers
> and, more importantly, would provide such people with access to the
> internet and things they want to do, without exposing them to the kinds
> of security risks that more fully featured computers would present.
> After all I access my file system, you mess about with my files and
> settings, he hacks my computer and installs malware.

For the few out there who haven't seen it...

http://xkcd.com/1200/

TL

[Roland Perry]

In message <KZq*bh...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 09:32:04 on Tue,
23 Apr 2013, John Burnham <jo...@jaka.demon.co.uk> remarked:

The part of the definition which the OED (and perhaps yourself) are
missing is that the end "point" doing the storage and processing of data
is undefined, and can be wherever the supplier finds it most convenient
to locate.

When I access the web server on the PC in by office, over the Internet
from somewhere else in the world, that is absolutely not "Cloud
computing", and any definition which would include that activity is
severely broken.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <atmsbk...@mid.individual.net>, at 08:42:44 on Tue, 23
Apr 2013, Rupert Moss-Eccardt <r.moss-...@computer.org> remarked:

>> What's being distributed redundantly is mainly the server [processing]
>> power and connectivity, plus local caches for appropriate frequently
>> accessed material, rather than because multiple [full] copies of the
>> data make it less easy to lose. Although there may be some of the latter
>> involved in the form of a wide-area RAID (for want of a better label).
>
>I think you have made a mistake in focusing on data.

I thought I mentioned processing power and connectivity too.

>There are a number of 'cloud' AV offerings that don't fit the model you
>describe here.

What do they offer that isn't storage of data, processing that data, and
connecting to that data, all in indeterminate places? (Unless you buy
one that claims to be able to determine the places, which excludes any
consumer-grade one I've ever seen).
--
Roland Perry