Holy Cow! Gas is 74.9??
Doktersteve
bar right across the street... last night it was 68.9, today it is six cents
more!
that is crazy. why did it jump so much over night, anyone know?
---
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Patrick Gallagher
Safeway on 32nd NE is 64.9
seems like a whole bunch went down 5 cents, and a whole bunch went up 5
cents, so we'll see tomorrow which sticks for the weekend :(
--
Patrick
black...@hotmail.com
Jerry
just off 17th and 37th Street and they seem to have the lowest prices around
that area...
Jerry
"Patrick Gallagher" <black...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:TT009.47048$Ag2.2...@news2.calgary.shaw.ca...
* Glenn *
Interesting ... the price of crude seems to be going down (according to the
news - texas crude price) but .... they stick it to us anyways.
Murray Peterson
news:k_109.45279$v53.2...@news3.calgary.shaw.ca:
> Interesting ... the price of crude seems to be going down (according
> to the news - texas crude price) but .... they stick it to us anyways.
But what was the price of crude a few months ago? That's the price you are
paying for at the pumps.
--
Murray Peterson
Email: murray_...@shaw.ca (remove underscore)
URL: http://members.shaw.ca/murraypeterson/
Patrick Gallagher
> "* Glenn *" <als...@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:k_109.45279$v53.2...@news3.calgary.shaw.ca:
>
>
>>Interesting ... the price of crude seems to be going down (according
>>to the news - texas crude price) but .... they stick it to us anyways.
>
>
> But what was the price of crude a few months ago? That's the price you are
> paying for at the pumps.
>
Lower than it is today. Gas prices haven't been fluctuating with crude
prices lately - they just go where the buyer will let them.
--
Patrick
black...@hotmail.com
Ayr_Kabir
http://www.dallasfed.org/htm/data/data/oilp.tab.htm
West Texas Crude has been going up all year.
On Fri, 26 Jul 2002 01:55:28 GMT, "* Glenn *" <als...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Murray Peterson
> Murray Peterson wrote:
>> "* Glenn *" <als...@hotmail.com> wrote in
>> news:k_109.45279$v53.2...@news3.calgary.shaw.ca:
>>
>>
>>>Interesting ... the price of crude seems to be going down (according
>>>to the news - texas crude price) but .... they stick it to us
>>>anyways.
>>
>>
>> But what was the price of crude a few months ago? That's the price
>> you are paying for at the pumps.
>>
>
> Lower than it is today. Gas prices haven't been fluctuating with crude
> prices lately
I did a bit of hunting for more info -- it appears that crude oil prices
and pump prices are only correlated in the long term; in the short term,
you can't use it as a predictor. Here's a study done by the govt of
Newfoundland:
www.gov.nf.ca/publicat/gasoline/chp-two.htm
>- they just go where the buyer will let them.
And how does the buyer "let" them? For that matter, how does the buyer
prevent this?
Patrick Gallagher
If they raise the prices and people still come, they're justified. If
you really wanted to, you could find gas for 65 cents a litre right now
- if EVERYONE boycotted any gas station charging 70+ cents a litre, the
prices would drop within a couple days.
--
Patrick
black...@hotmail.com
Murray Peterson
> If they raise the prices and people still come, they're justified. If
> you really wanted to, you could find gas for 65 cents a litre right
> now - if EVERYONE boycotted any gas station charging 70+ cents a
> litre, the prices would drop within a couple days.
That would work for a little while, but only while the profit margin is
sufficient at that price. Once costs go up, then there won't be any gas
station willing to sell at a loss for very long.
News
pump. That was 2 days ago though....
"Doktersteve" <dokte...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:fB009.46997$Ag2.2...@news2.calgary.shaw.ca...
Patrick Gallagher
> Patrick Gallagher <black...@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:JIb09.46894$v53.2...@news3.calgary.shaw.ca:
>
>
>>If they raise the prices and people still come, they're justified. If
>>you really wanted to, you could find gas for 65 cents a litre right
>>now - if EVERYONE boycotted any gas station charging 70+ cents a
>>litre, the prices would drop within a couple days.
>
>
> That would work for a little while, but only while the profit margin is
> sufficient at that price. Once costs go up, then there won't be any gas
> station willing to sell at a loss for very long.
>
They're not selling at a loss. They'd be making a profit at 40 cents a
litre (not a big one) if that's what the head office decided they should
sell it at.
--
Patrick Gallagher
black...@hotmail.com
tokendave
"Murray Peterson" <m...@home.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:Xns9256EBB4...@24.71.223.159...
> Patrick Gallagher <black...@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:Pg309.45580$v53.2...@news3.calgary.shaw.ca:
>
> > Murray Peterson wrote:
> >> "* Glenn *" <als...@hotmail.com> wrote in
> >> news:k_109.45279$v53.2...@news3.calgary.shaw.ca:
> >>
> And how does the buyer "let" them? For that matter, how does the buyer
> prevent this?
Well, if all the buyers out there would dump their gas-guzzling SUVs and
instead drive economy cars (or better yet, use our cruddy public transport
system instead of driving), there would be a glut of gasoline and prices
would go down.
News
> > prevent this?
>
> Well, if all the buyers out there would dump their gas-guzzling SUVs and
> instead drive economy cars (or better yet, use our cruddy public transport
> system instead of driving), there would be a glut of gasoline and prices
> would go down.
True enough. SUVs and Minivans (I think) are wonderful and economic
vehicles, if they are used for what they are designed for - Carrying a lot
of people. It doesn't bother me to see a Minivan when there are three or
four people in it. What really kills me is the amount of SUVs, Minivans and
Monster Trucks on the road with just one passenger. But I suppose, to each
their own. Even if it does mean that Gas Consumption goes up (Causing
Prices to increase, which I have to pay for as well) I don't sewat it too
much. I know my car is getting twice (Or more) Fuel efficiency than those
vehicles.
Bob Frapples
news:Aad09.5271$Vj3.3...@news0.telusplanet.net:
What's up with that whole 3.5 cents off thing that everyone is doing
anyway? Doesn't it make more sense to simply post a lower price on the
board? Woudn't it be more attractive to see a lower price than a higher
price that has some kind of a discount?
News
> anyway? Doesn't it make more sense to simply post a lower price on the
> board? Woudn't it be more attractive to see a lower price than a higher
> price that has some kind of a discount?
No kidding. I know the deal at that station, so I can figure the price out.
But if I'm in la-la land and don't know about the deal I am definately less
inclined to go!
Rat Patrol
This week 5cents regular and 7 cents off premium gas.
BTW, They simply charge because NO MATTER WHAT people PAY IT.
Yet, I curb my fuel consumption by 75% and I still get to pay big because
others won't stop buying so much of it, like I did.
They also have a "reason of the week",they write down 30 reasons post it on
a dart board and throw a dart at it.
Whatever the dart hits that's the reason of the rise in price.
JD
"News" <dhaf...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:80j09.5709$Vj3.3...@news0.telusplanet.net...
Murray Peterson
> They're not selling at a loss. They'd be making a profit at 40 cents a
> litre (not a big one) if that's what the head office decided they should
> sell it at.
Huh? Let's do a bit of math on this one:
1 barrel of crude oil = 159 litres
Litres of gasoline per barrel of crude:
This one varies a lot, depending on the crude oil quality.
Let's be *really* generous and assume a 90% efficiency rate
at the refinery:
159 * 0.9 = 143 litres of gasoline per barrel of crude
Cost of 1 barrel of West Texas crude: $26.99
Cost of 1 litre of gasoline (assume 0 cost of refining and shipping):
$26.99 / 143 = 18.8 cents per litre
Alberta tax: 11 cents per litre
Federal tax: 10 cents per litre
Total cost per litre: 18.8 + 11 + 10 = 39.8 cents per litre
So, you are asserting that the oil companies can ship the oil around the
country, refine it, build gas stations, truck the finished product
to those stations, advertise their product, etc., all for less than 0.2
cents a litre?
Mr. Frederick
the fields that were profitable when gas was 35 cents a Candian gallon in
1972. Yes, the newer fields are more expensive to develop, some of them a
lot more expensive, but the cost is blended with the cheaper oil. We don't
buy West Texas crude. The companies use world pricing to make it look like
we aren't bad off, and they make out like bandits except when they blow
their marketing. The public in Venezuela can buy gas cheaper than us,
because the country believes it's own citizens should benefit from the
resources. Venezuela still exports oil at world prices and makes money at
it. Just for the record, in Winnipeg, gas averages 68.5 right now, and
Manitoba fuel tax is higher than Alberta. No rhyme, no reason, they price
however they feel like.
Patrick Gallagher
Definately - if we're using "West Texas Crude" in a province that has
more oil reserves than Texas and Saudi Arabia combined, someone needs to
reorganize they way things are done around here.
--
Patrick
black...@hotmail.com
Murray Peterson
> Definately - if we're using "West Texas Crude" in a province that has
> more oil reserves than Texas and Saudi Arabia combined, someone needs to
> reorganize they way things are done around here.
You guys obviously haven't read the free trade agreement -- we must charge
the same price for domestic use as we charge for export sales.
Murray Peterson
news:FTn09.16611$A72....@news1.mts.net:
> Canada is a net exporter of oil. They are still refining oil from
> some of the fields that were profitable when gas was 35 cents a
> Candian gallon in 1972.
And those fields produce a very small amount of oil compared to when they
were new.
> Yes, the newer fields are more expensive to
> develop, some of them a lot more expensive, but the cost is blended
> with the cheaper oil.
The majority of Canadian production is from the expensive sources (tar
sands, offshore). The Leduc oil fields are long past their prime, and most
of the old wells are now closed down. If you have a "few" spare dollars
and gigabytes of disk space, I can give you a contact for obtaining well
production historical data in Alberta.
> We don't buy West Texas crude. The companies
> use world pricing to make it look like we aren't bad off,
No, they use world pricing because the Free Trade agreement forces them to
do so.
> and they make out like bandits except when they blow their marketing.
Huh? If they can make out like bandits, then how does bad marketing
destroy all those profits? They spent it all on TV and newspaper ads?
> The
> public in Venezuela can buy gas cheaper than us, because the country
> believes it's own citizens should benefit from the resources.
> Venezuela still exports oil at world prices and makes money at it.
Not a Free Trade signatory -- they can get away with it.
> Just for the record, in Winnipeg, gas averages 68.5 right now, and
> Manitoba fuel tax is higher than Alberta. No rhyme, no reason, they
> price however they feel like.
I think you are over-simplifying an extremely complex market.
Here is a fairly good government study done on gasoline prices and
competition in Canada:
http://cbc.ca/consumers/market/files/cars/gasprice/gasimages/gasreport.pdf
One thing you might take note of in the study -- the profit margins for
1998 were 5.92% for refining and 3.59% for retailing. Not what I would
call "huge" profit margins by any stretch of the imagination.
Mr. Frederick
> "Mr. Frederick" <croo...@mbno.sympaticospam.ca> wrote in
> news:FTn09.16611$A72....@news1.mts.net:
>
> > Canada is a net exporter of oil. They are still refining oil from
> > some of the fields that were profitable when gas was 35 cents a
> > Candian gallon in 1972.
>
> And those fields produce a very small amount of oil compared to when they
> were new.
>
are fields in Manitoba and Saskatchewan that have been producing for a long
time as well.
> > Yes, the newer fields are more expensive to
> > develop, some of them a lot more expensive, but the cost is blended
> > with the cheaper oil.
>
> The majority of Canadian production is from the expensive sources (tar
> sands, offshore). The Leduc oil fields are long past their prime, and
most
> of the old wells are now closed down. If you have a "few" spare dollars
> and gigabytes of disk space, I can give you a contact for obtaining well
> production historical data in Alberta.
Majority? That's what big oil would like you to believe.
>
> > We don't buy West Texas crude. The companies
> > use world pricing to make it look like we aren't bad off,
>
> No, they use world pricing because the Free Trade agreement forces them to
> do so.
I didn't sign it, and I don't know anybody who did. The government suckered
us on that, and big oild was happy to go along.
>
> > and they make out like bandits except when they blow their marketing.
>
> Huh? If they can make out like bandits, then how does bad marketing
> destroy all those profits? They spent it all on TV and newspaper ads?
Too many stations, car giveaways, trips, etc., etc. Don't you remember
Shell saying some time back they needed higher prices because they lost
money? No other company sais they lost money then.
>
> > The
> > public in Venezuela can buy gas cheaper than us, because the country
> > believes it's own citizens should benefit from the resources.
> > Venezuela still exports oil at world prices and makes money at it.
>
> Not a Free Trade signatory -- they can get away with it.
Exactly.
>
> > Just for the record, in Winnipeg, gas averages 68.5 right now, and
> > Manitoba fuel tax is higher than Alberta. No rhyme, no reason, they
> > price however they feel like.
>
> I think you are over-simplifying an extremely complex market.
> Here is a fairly good government study done on gasoline prices and
> competition in Canada:
Hey, it's not that complex. Oil companies sell for what they want. How do
you explain the years of gas being cheaper in Victoria than Vancouver? How
do you explain gas being cheaper in small towns with 1 station than the big
city 10-15 kilometres away? How do you explain oil companies telling us
every rise in world price of 1 dollar a barrel translates into 1 cent at the
pump, but the same dollar decrease never seems to be a 1 cent decrease? How
do you explain every pump for kilometres, on opposite sides of rivers or
other landmarks, going up by the same amount at the same time? Why did we
seen an increase in price at the time production of heating oil made for a
surplus of gasoline? There is little competition. "Gas wars" happen
rarely, and the gifts we get during these "wars" always are eaten up by
higher prices later. We have lost BA, BP, Texaco, Royalite, Union 76 in
most of the country, White Rose, Pacific 66, Fina, Gulf, most of 7-11 gas
has been turned over to Esso, etc, as many companies have been absorbed by
other companies. There is little competition in most markets unless Safeway
and Superstore decide to slug it out, and they don't own refineries.
> http://cbc.ca/consumers/market/files/cars/gasprice/gasimages/gasreport.pdf
>
> One thing you might take note of in the study -- the profit margins for
> 1998 were 5.92% for refining and 3.59% for retailing. Not what I would
> call "huge" profit margins by any stretch of the imagination.
Your bank gives you about 1% on savings, and guaranteed inventment rates of
3-4% unless you tie your money up for long term. 5.92% doesn't sound so bad
in that light. Besides, they deal in huge volume. How do you think a store
like Superstore makes money selling food? Volume, not profit margin. It's
not completely simple, I agree, but there are a lot of sides to the story.
The side that affects most people is the side that reaches into the wallet.
As I said, 74.9 in Calgary, and I paid 68,5 in Winnipeg today. We are
farther than Calgary from the refineries, we have higher provincial fuel
tax, and a lower price at the pump right now, at least as long as they allow
it. There is no gas war going on right now, either.
Patrick Gallagher
> Your bank gives you about 1% on savings, and guaranteed inventment rates of
> 3-4% unless you tie your money up for long term. 5.92% doesn't sound so bad
> in that light. Besides, they deal in huge volume. How do you think a store
> like Superstore makes money selling food? Volume, not profit margin. It's
> not completely simple, I agree, but there are a lot of sides to the story.
> The side that affects most people is the side that reaches into the wallet.
> As I said, 74.9 in Calgary, and I paid 68,5 in Winnipeg today. We are
> farther than Calgary from the refineries, we have higher provincial fuel
> tax, and a lower price at the pump right now, at least as long as they allow
> it. There is no gas war going on right now, either.
>
>
the weird thing is in Calgary, there is a HUGE variation in gas prices -
up to 10 cents a litre at any given time. The lowest posted price I saw
TODAY was 68.4, and they also had a sign advertising 3.5 cents off at
the pump. the highest I saw was 74.9 with no discount.
--
Patrick
black...@hotmail.com
Murray Peterson
> Murray Peterson <m...@home.com.invalid> wrote in message
> news:Xns9258D4F...@24.71.223.159...
>> "Mr. Frederick" <croo...@mbno.sympaticospam.ca> wrote in
>> news:FTn09.16611$A72....@news1.mts.net:
>>
>> > Canada is a net exporter of oil. They are still refining oil from
>> > some of the fields that were profitable when gas was 35 cents a
>> > Candian gallon in 1972.
>>
>> And those fields produce a very small amount of oil compared to when
>> they were new.
>>
> Still enough that we export, and Alberta fields aren't the only ones.
> There are fields in Manitoba and Saskatchewan that have been producing
> for a long time as well.
>
>> > Yes, the newer fields are more expensive to
>> > develop, some of them a lot more expensive, but the cost is blended
>> > with the cheaper oil.
>>
>> The majority of Canadian production is from the expensive sources
>> (tar sands, offshore). The Leduc oil fields are long past their
>> prime, and
> most
>> of the old wells are now closed down. If you have a "few" spare
>> dollars and gigabytes of disk space, I can give you a contact for
>> obtaining well production historical data in Alberta.
>
> Majority? That's what big oil would like you to believe.
The data is publicly available -- all well production figures can be
obtained from the provincial governments. How else do you think the
government calculates the royalty on well production? "Big oil" has to
provide correct data, and the government enforces this.
>> Huh? If they can make out like bandits, then how does bad marketing
>> destroy all those profits? They spent it all on TV and newspaper
>> ads?
>
> Too many stations,
But you are asserting that these same stations are making a profit. You
can't have it both ways.
> car giveaways, trips, etc., etc. Don't you
> remember Shell saying some time back they needed higher prices because
> they lost money? No other company sais they lost money then.
If this sort of thing causes a loss instead of a profit, then where is the
"huge" profit? Were they giving away billions of dollars in prizes?
>> > Just for the record, in Winnipeg, gas averages 68.5 right now, and
>> > Manitoba fuel tax is higher than Alberta. No rhyme, no reason,
>> > they price however they feel like.
>>
>> I think you are over-simplifying an extremely complex market.
>> Here is a fairly good government study done on gasoline prices and
>> competition in Canada:
>
> Hey, it's not that complex.
Yes, it is. There are a plethora of government probes and studies about
gasoline prices, both in Canada and the U.S. Read some of them.
> Oil companies sell for what they want.
> How do you explain the years of gas being cheaper in Victoria than
> Vancouver? How do you explain gas being cheaper in small towns with 1
> station than the big city 10-15 kilometres away? How do you explain
> oil companies telling us every rise in world price of 1 dollar a
> barrel translates into 1 cent at the pump, but the same dollar
> decrease never seems to be a 1 cent decrease? How do you explain
> every pump for kilometres, on opposite sides of rivers or other
> landmarks, going up by the same amount at the same time? Why did we
> seen an increase in price at the time production of heating oil made
> for a surplus of gasoline?
But you say that gasoline pricing isn't complex -- if it's all that simple,
then why don't you explain it.
> There is little competition.
That is an actual problem in Canada, and is one reason why the government
has at least toyed with the idea of a "fair price" law to prevent large
companies from driving smaller competitors out of business by gas wars.
> "Gas wars" happen rarely, and the gifts we get during these "wars"
> always are eaten up by higher prices later.
Read the study that I provided the link to, and look for a study done by
the Newfoundland government. They indicate that almost all gas wars
involve selling gasoline at a loss, so I am not surprised that a company
would try to make up for it.
> We have lost BA, BP, Texaco,
> Royalite, Union 76 in most of the country, White Rose, Pacific 66,
> Fina, Gulf, most of 7-11 gas has been turned over to Esso, etc, as
> many companies have been absorbed by other companies. There is little
> competition in most markets unless Safeway and Superstore decide to
> slug it out, and they don't own refineries.
If you want more competition, then don't wish for gas wars. That's how the
little guys get driven out of business.
> Your bank gives you about 1% on savings, and guaranteed inventment
> rates of 3-4% unless you tie your money up for long term. 5.92%
> doesn't sound so bad in that light.
The bank's profit margin is much higher than the interest rates that they
give to you for your money. How about 696 million profit on 4 billion?
http://www.canoe.ca/MoneyEarnings/nov20_royalbank-cp.html
My calculator says that works out to more than 17% gross profit margin.
> Besides, they deal in huge
> volume. How do you think a store like Superstore makes money selling
> food? Volume, not profit margin.
In other words, there isn't all that much room for price reduction by the
oil companies. Which is a far cry from the statement that they could sell
gas at 40 cents and still make a profit. That's just plain impossible (and
wrong).
> It's not completely simple, I
> agree, but there are a lot of sides to the story. The side that
> affects most people is the side that reaches into the wallet.
True, and you can expect gas prices to continue to rise as time goes on.
Start planning today for that $2 per litre pump price :-(
> As I
> said, 74.9 in Calgary, and I paid 68,5 in Winnipeg today. We are
> farther than Calgary from the refineries, we have higher provincial
> fuel tax, and a lower price at the pump right now, at least as long as
> they allow it. There is no gas war going on right now, either.
I have no idea what the reason for this particular price differential;
perhaps the higer price in Calgary is the "real" price, and the Winnipeg
price is a "good deal". Or perhaps the supply line to Calgary got an
influx of higher priced crude. Or perhaps a few suppliers in Calgary got
greedy. Or... There are so many possible reasons, and I don't have the
facts to prove (or disprove) any of them.
But I really wish people would stop asserting that gas prices could be
lowered by 20 or 30 cents -- even simple mathematics proves that to be
impossible.
Go read a few of the studies done in the last 20 years -- they are worth
the time, and they all provide a good background on the pricing structure
of gasoline. "Big oil" isn't a bunch of innocents, but very little of the
high price of gasoline can be attributed to them (or their corporate
greed).
Mr. Frederick
Not exactly what I said, you are cherry-picking my words. I never said
snything about STATIONS making money, I said compnies were making money.
But since you mention staions, now companies like Shell are deciding what
franchise stations to put out of business on the basis of who they feel like
carting product to. The Shell dealer I received my home fuel from for years
is out of business, despite the fact they made money and employed several
people. The only other Shell home fuel dealer in the area, and this is
about 30 km away, has also been put out of business by Shell. They also
were also profitable. Since Shell ran no home fuel stations in this part of
the country themselves, it was up to us to find another source. Shell
decided they didn't want to bother with his particular part of the business
in his particular part of the country anymore.
>
> > car giveaways, trips, etc., etc. Don't you
> > remember Shell saying some time back they needed higher prices because
> > they lost money? No other company sais they lost money then.
>
> If this sort of thing causes a loss instead of a profit, then where is the
> "huge" profit? Were they giving away billions of dollars in prizes?
Shell lost money, said publicly they lost money, wanted to increase prices
to make up for it, but the other companies did not lose money in the same
time frame. As far as I know, this was only in one year, and was before all
the compaies started shutting down stations all over the place.
>
> >> > Just for the record, in Winnipeg, gas averages 68.5 right now, and
> >> > Manitoba fuel tax is higher than Alberta. No rhyme, no reason,
> >> > they price however they feel like.
> >>
> >> I think you are over-simplifying an extremely complex market.
> >> Here is a fairly good government study done on gasoline prices and
> >> competition in Canada:
> >
> > Hey, it's not that complex.
>
> Yes, it is. There are a plethora of government probes and studies about
> gasoline prices, both in Canada and the U.S. Read some of them.
>
> > Oil companies sell for what they want.
> > How do you explain the years of gas being cheaper in Victoria than
> > Vancouver? How do you explain gas being cheaper in small towns with 1
> > station than the big city 10-15 kilometres away? How do you explain
> > oil companies telling us every rise in world price of 1 dollar a
> > barrel translates into 1 cent at the pump, but the same dollar
> > decrease never seems to be a 1 cent decrease? How do you explain
> > every pump for kilometres, on opposite sides of rivers or other
> > landmarks, going up by the same amount at the same time? Why did we
> > seen an increase in price at the time production of heating oil made
> > for a surplus of gasoline?
>
> But you say that gasoline pricing isn't complex -- if it's all that
simple,
> then why don't you explain it.
Why should I explain it to you, I asked you to explain the many obvious
discrepancies that consumers all over the country see all the time.
>
> > There is little competition.
>
> That is an actual problem in Canada, and is one reason why the government
> has at least toyed with the idea of a "fair price" law to prevent large
> companies from driving smaller competitors out of business by gas wars.
>
> > "Gas wars" happen rarely, and the gifts we get during these "wars"
> > always are eaten up by higher prices later.
>
> Read the study that I provided the link to, and look for a study done by
> the Newfoundland government. They indicate that almost all gas wars
> involve selling gasoline at a loss, so I am not surprised that a company
> would try to make up for it.
>
> > We have lost BA, BP, Texaco,
> > Royalite, Union 76 in most of the country, White Rose, Pacific 66,
> > Fina, Gulf, most of 7-11 gas has been turned over to Esso, etc, as
> > many companies have been absorbed by other companies. There is little
> > competition in most markets unless Safeway and Superstore decide to
> > slug it out, and they don't own refineries.
>
> If you want more competition, then don't wish for gas wars. That's how
the
> little guys get driven out of business.
I didn't say I wished for gas wars, I just want honest competition, and
pricing that makes sense. I want a system that doesn't make someone pay
more for gas in the city one week while a small town 30 km away with one
station has the best price in the province by 10 or more cents a litre. I
want a system that doesn't mean a Shell at one end of the city changes it's
price at the exact same moment as an Esso 60 kilometres away, but "it's just
a coincidence".
>
> > Your bank gives you about 1% on savings, and guaranteed inventment
> > rates of 3-4% unless you tie your money up for long term. 5.92%
> > doesn't sound so bad in that light.
>
> The bank's profit margin is much higher than the interest rates that they
> give to you for your money. How about 696 million profit on 4 billion?
Doesn't help me does it help you?
>
> > Besides, they deal in huge
> > volume. How do you think a store like Superstore makes money selling
> > food? Volume, not profit margin.
>
> In other words, there isn't all that much room for price reduction by the
> oil companies. Which is a far cry from the statement that they could sell
> gas at 40 cents and still make a profit. That's just plain impossible
(and
> wrong).
And that wasn't my statement now, was it?
>
> > It's not completely simple, I
> > agree, but there are a lot of sides to the story. The side that
> > affects most people is the side that reaches into the wallet.
>
> True, and you can expect gas prices to continue to rise as time goes on.
> Start planning today for that $2 per litre pump price :-(
>
> > As I
> > said, 74.9 in Calgary, and I paid 68,5 in Winnipeg today. We are
> > farther than Calgary from the refineries, we have higher provincial
> > fuel tax, and a lower price at the pump right now, at least as long as
> > they allow it. There is no gas war going on right now, either.
>
> I have no idea what the reason for this particular price differential;
> perhaps the higer price in Calgary is the "real" price, and the Winnipeg
> price is a "good deal". Or perhaps the supply line to Calgary got an
> influx of higher priced crude. Or perhaps a few suppliers in Calgary got
> greedy. Or... There are so many possible reasons, and I don't have the
> facts to prove (or disprove) any of them.
Well, there you go. The whole ridiculous story in a nutshell, isn't it?
>
> But I really wish people would stop asserting that gas prices could be
> lowered by 20 or 30 cents -- even simple mathematics proves that to be
> impossible.
And I never said 20 or 30 cents, but track the dollar increases and
decreases, and the penny a litre changes, and see the difference in the
timing.
The Unexploded Scotsman
"Doktersteve" <dokte...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:fB009.46997$Ag2.2...@news2.calgary.shaw.ca...
> When did this happen? I live in an apartment and have a veiw of a co-op
gas
> bar right across the street... last night it was 68.9, today it is six
cents
> more!
>
> that is crazy. why did it jump so much over night, anyone know?
>
Check out diesel. I just filled up my car for the first time and it was 54
cents a litre.
Even better, the car came with a full tank and that gave me a little over a
1000km. Not bad for $20 worth of fuel.
Murray Peterson
> I just want honest competition, and pricing that makes sense.
And it does make sense, as almost every government investigation has shown.
The only way you get identical prices everywhere is if the government
imposes prices controls. Here's one study that shows (among other
things) how bad that situation becomes:
http://www.gov.nf.ca/publicat/gasoline/report.htm
This study explores the reasons for differing gas prices in various parts
of the province, including urban/rural differences. again, well worth
reading.
> I want a system that doesn't make
> someone pay more for gas in the city one week while a small town 30 km
> away with one station has the best price in the province by 10 or more
> cents a litre.
I don't see why this bothers you. That small station may have enough
storage that it is cheaper product, while the large city stations are
currently pumping higher priced supplies. Would you rather the small town
station increase their price to match?
> I want a system that doesn't mean a Shell at one end
> of the city changes it's price at the exact same moment as an Esso 60
> kilometres away, but "it's just a coincidence".
I doubt that it's a coincidence, but I also doubt that any collusion was
involved. Supplies are replenished at gas stations regularly, with a
different cost every time. It's not exactly a surprise to see that some of
them change at the same time, nor is it a surprise to see some stations
sell at different prices.
dan
private gas station that is the lowest in Calgary.
"Jerry" <na...@nospamhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:qF109.3820$Vj3.2...@news0.telusplanet.net...
> Dam...I wish I live in the NE/SE NOT! hehe....well I usually goto the Esso
> just off 17th and 37th Street and they seem to have the lowest prices
around
> that area...
>
> Jerry
>
> "Patrick Gallagher" <black...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:TT009.47048$Ag2.2...@news2.calgary.shaw.ca...
> > Doktersteve wrote:
> > > When did this happen? I live in an apartment and have a veiw of a
co-op
> gas
> > > bar right across the street... last night it was 68.9, today it is six
> cents
> > > more!
> > >
> > > that is crazy. why did it jump so much over night, anyone know?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ---
> > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > > Version: 6.0.377 / Virus Database: 211 - Release Date: 7/15/2002
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Safeway on 32nd NE is 64.9
> >
> > seems like a whole bunch went down 5 cents, and a whole bunch went up 5
> > cents, so we'll see tomorrow which sticks for the weekend :(
> >
> > --
> >
> > Patrick
> > black...@hotmail.com
> >
>
>
Ayr_Kabir
I filled up at safeway on their "special" day where you can get 7
cents off per liter. $33.00 before discount After discount $29.89
44 Litres of gas, and all I saved was $3... whoopy. I probably spent
$1.50 in gas just driving to Safeway.
Ayr_Kabir
The problem of Diesel stinking, smoking like a bastard, and being hard
to find stations for when you're running low, is still the biggest
problem with it.
Being able to fill up with old cooking oil is a nice plus side though
(use only on a true diesel engine, not one of those gasoline engines
that the manufacturer has "tweaked" in order to make diesel)
mmmm.... the smell of a McDonalds cooking oil fueled van.... like
french fries that never goes away
Ayr_Kabir
<m...@home.com.invalid> wrote:
>> I want a system that doesn't mean a Shell at one end
>> of the city changes it's price at the exact same moment as an Esso 60
>> kilometres away, but "it's just a coincidence".
>
>I doubt that it's a coincidence, but I also doubt that any collusion was
>involved. Supplies are replenished at gas stations regularly, with a
>different cost every time. It's not exactly a surprise to see that some of
>them change at the same time, nor is it a surprise to see some stations
>sell at different prices.
OH, its a coincidence all right... because price fixing is illegal....
I really hate to say this (because its the dirtiest stinkiest town
outside of Winnipeg) but....
Edmonton doesnt suffer from the "every gas station has the same price"
syndrom. Last time I was up there, it seemed every gas station had a
different price up, even when they were accross the street from each
other. In some cases it was only half a cent, but in others, it
varied 5 cents a liter, for gas stations side by side. (5 cent cheaper
was at a 7-11, accross the street was the 5 cent more Esso)
Patrick Gallagher
68.9 with 2 cents a litre off for self serve :)
I drive by there every day
--
Patrick
black...@hotmail.com
Patrick Gallagher
> In reality the price doesnt make much of a difference though.....
>
> I filled up at safeway on their "special" day where you can get 7
> cents off per liter. $33.00 before discount After discount $29.89
>
> 44 Litres of gas, and all I saved was $3... whoopy. I probably spent
> $1.50 in gas just driving to Safeway.
7 cents doesn't make a big difference, really - but the fact we're
paying 15 cents more than we should be does.
On the bright side, we're paying less than half of what some europeans
are paying right now (between 1.20 and 1.60 CDN a litre)
--
Patrick
black...@hotmail.com
The Unexploded Scotsman
"Ayr_Kabir" <iron-...@iran.org> wrote in message
news:0bFCPa8JC9xZi0...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 27 Jul 2002 08:34:32 GMT, "The Unexploded Scotsman"
> <pl...@kabooom.com> wrote:
> The problem of Diesel stinking, smoking like a bastard, and being hard
> to find stations for when you're running low, is still the biggest
> problem with it.
You're thinking old diesel engines. I'm running a 2002 VW TDI and no smoke,
no stink and no real problem finding stations (goes fast too *g*). Besides
with a 1000 km to a tank you don't have to look for stations that often. Any
co-op station seems to sell it and I've just started looking.
Much of Europe is running diesel and I suspect the same trend will follow
here -- at least until fuel cells catch on.
>
> Being able to fill up with old cooking oil is a nice plus side though
> (use only on a true diesel engine, not one of those gasoline engines
> that the manufacturer has "tweaked" in order to make diesel)
>
http://www.boiledfrog.org/wikiwiki/BioDiesel
The Unexploded Scotsman
nOoNe
<pl...@kabooom.com> wrote:
*Check out diesel. I just filled up my car for the first time and it was
54
*cents a litre.
*Even better, the car came with a full tank and that gave me a little
over a
*1000km. Not bad for $20 worth of fuel.
*
That's 76 mpg (3.7 litres/100 km), what are you driving, a lawnmower?
Ayr_Kabir
Needless to say they didnt rent a car.
nOoNe
<pl...@kabooom.com> wrote:
*Left this out: http://www.newhondacivic.com/diesel.html
*
A lot of good that'll do us. Where's that, England? The talk about
windscreens is a dead give away.
Only problem with diesel I see, actually two, is the exhaust is
carcinogenic, and if they catch on the price will rise to as much, if
not more than gasoline -- because of demand/supply, and because they can
demand it. What 're you going to do, drive to the US to buy it? Look
what happened to propane as a fuel. It started out at less than half the
price of gas, it probably costs more than gas now. But if you've
converted, are you going to convert back?
Ayr_Kabir
(I happen to totally hate hondas, and acuras)
Stick to the VW links :)
Ayr_Kabir
<pl...@kabooom.com> wrote:
>
>"Ayr_Kabir" <iron-...@iran.org> wrote in message
>news:0bFCPa8JC9xZi0...@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 27 Jul 2002 08:34:32 GMT, "The Unexploded Scotsman"
>> <pl...@kabooom.com> wrote:
>> The problem of Diesel stinking, smoking like a bastard, and being hard
>> to find stations for when you're running low, is still the biggest
>> problem with it.
>
>You're thinking old diesel engines. I'm running a 2002 VW TDI and no smoke,
>no stink and no real problem finding stations (goes fast too *g*). Besides
>with a 1000 km to a tank you don't have to look for stations that often. Any
>co-op station seems to sell it and I've just started looking.
I dunno, I saw a 98 or 99 Jetta Diesel the other day that was pushing
blue black smoke all over the place. And this morning there was a
stinky old Merc Benz that choked me out. (probably an 85 or 86)
The trucks always seem to stink (dodge, ford, take your pick)
The only Diesel that I dont remember stinking was a blue 2002 TDI...
but it still pushed out a fair ammount of smoke when it started up off
the line.
Out of curiosity do you have to charge glow plugs for a half a minute
before you can start your car? (only diesels Ive driven took about
2-5 minutes to charge glow plugs, but I'd figure a new car shouldnt be
more than 30 seconds)
nOoNe
wrote:
*> There is little competition.
*
*That is an actual problem in Canada, and is one reason why the
government
*has at least toyed with the idea of a "fair price" law to prevent large
*companies from driving smaller competitors out of business by gas wars.
The govt. should set maximum prices at the start of a month based on the
average price of oil in month 3 months ago. I.e. August gas prices
should be based on the average price of oil in the month of May. This
way we would know if we were being ripped off or not. They could also
set a minimum if you wanted to try and prevent gas station wars, and
keep competition in business by having a price at which they'd still
make money.
Sounds strange to ask for regulation, but the amount of competition has
reduced so much they need to be regulated for the public good.
If the federal govt. tax is the same in all the provinces, then the only
variation in price should be caused by the different provincial taxes,
plus additional transportation costs. If that's true, why is gas
'usually' 3 to 5 cents a litre cheaper in Edmonton? It doesn't cost 3
cents a litre to ship gas to Calgary by pipeline. As the city most oil
companies have their head offices in you'd think they'd like to keep the
prices lowest here, not Winnipeg or Toronto. Toronto, BTW has prices
less than Calgary as well and their provincial taxes are quite a bit
more per litre than here -- what's up with that? Are they all losing
money in Toronto? Or, does the volume keep them in business?
nOoNe
wrote:
*> I want a system that doesn't make
*> someone pay more for gas in the city one week while a small town 30
km
*> away with one station has the best price in the province by 10 or
more
*> cents a litre.
*
*I don't see why this bothers you. That small station may have enough
*storage that it is cheaper product, while the large city stations are
*currently pumping higher priced supplies. Would you rather the small
*town station increase their price to match?
No, I want the city prices to be lowered. If the rural yokels can make a
living at the lower prices, the city stations should be able to make
more money at those same prices because of volume alone. Most city
stations are self serve, whereas the country stations serve you. Another
saving for the city stations.
A Newz Uzer
> I dunno, I saw a 98 or 99 Jetta Diesel the other day that was pushing
> blue black smoke all over the place. And this morning there was a
> stinky old Merc Benz that choked me out. (probably an 85 or 86)
All VW's blow smoke after a year. Chrysler is just as bad and they use(d) a
lot of VW engines.
> The trucks always seem to stink (dodge, ford, take your pick)
> The only Diesel that I dont remember stinking was a blue 2002 TDI...
> but it still pushed out a fair ammount of smoke when it started up off
> the line.
Diesels are noisy engines. Rattle all the time. BLECH!
A Newz Uzer
> average price of oil in month 3 months ago. I.e. August gas prices
The government should stay out of the business all together. Either it's a
free market or the government should provide the service COMPLETELY.
If the government gets involved and savings you see at the pumps (or
wherever else the stick their nose in) will cost you at least DOUBLE in your
taxes.
A Newz Uzer
> No, I want the city prices to be lowered. If the rural yokels can make a
> living at the lower prices, the city stations should be able to make
> more money at those same prices because of volume alone. Most city
> stations are self serve, whereas the country stations serve you. Another
> saving for the city stations.
Ever thought that the yokel filled his tanks when it was cheap, and being
out of town, he doesn't use his tanks up nearly as quickly as they guys in
town, so he can stay cheap longer?
Just because you're too lazy to shop around doesn't mean the government or
anyone else should do it for you!
Murray Peterson
news:68a6ku041mteoseep...@4ax.com:
> Sounds strange to ask for regulation, but the amount of competition has
> reduced so much they need to be regulated for the public good.
Every attempt at regulation has resulted in higher gas prices -- read the
study done by the Newfoundland government (I gave a link to it a few posts
back).
The Unexploded Scotsman
Nope. But only cause it's summer. According to the manual in winter you may
have to wait as long as 10 seconds.
I can deal with that. *g*
The Unexploded Scotsman
http://www.tdiclub.com/TDIFAQ/TDiFAQ-5.html
The Unexploded Scotsman
"nOoNe" <No...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:7a96ku4e01eomogev...@4ax.com...
According to the specs it should only be about 50mpg. Go figure...
The Unexploded Scotsman
Can't see it happening. Even if it did cost the same as gas it would still
be a still because you get many more miles out the same amount of fuel.
Also, those big trucks that ship food and products all over the
country...guess what they run on?
Diesel can actually be MUCH cleaner than gas. Just depends on a few factors.
One of the biggest problems is the high sulfur content in Canadian diesel.
It's like 100 times higher then the stuff in most of Europe--this is
supposed to change.
veranda
system allows individuals to put a significant part of the oil
revenues in their own pockets and to play marketing games . After all
it is a fact that most owners of oil companies are multi-millioners.
Since the resources are recognize by law as the property of
the government ( supposedly Us ) than it should be the Government to
operate All aspects of mineral and oil production and marketing . Not
private companies . The Royalties we received could be
significantly higher .
Is the government Incapable of conducting such an undertaking
?
Do we elect our governments ? Obviously there is a big problem
.
I think we should expect from a properly organized and
motivated government to not involve our resources in free-trade
agreements nor to let private companies to dictate prices and pocket a
large chunk of the profits . Certain things should be
government controlled and operated specially when comes to essential
resources . Of course the major stumbling block is that Us do not
have to much control over our own governments which brings the subject
to the root of the problem : ignorant voters .
Rat Patrol
"The Unexploded Scotsman" <pl...@kabooom.com> wrote in message
news:ErN09.62633$f05.3...@news1.calgary.shaw.ca...
Exactly, I rented a 2001Volks Beetle Diesel in Toronto last year and got 52
Mpg combined.
That was sweet as the car was great to drive too.
JD
Dan Overes
> The problem of Diesel stinking, smoking like a bastard, and being hard
> to find stations for when you're running low, is still the biggest
> problem with it.
Stink? Nah, after awhile you start to LOVE that smell. It's the smell of
pulling power! ;-)
Smoking? I get a little puff when I start the engine and that's about all.
Hard to find stations? Never had a problem yet. Besides, with a range of
over 900km when not towing or 600 km when towing I can always make it to the
next station.
And noise/rattle? Bah, after a couple of blocks my Cummins purrs like a
kitten.
If you do any sort of towing or hauling, a diesel is the only way to go.
I'm going to make sure our next car is a diesel as well -- I love those
things!
* Glenn *
Their gas is only 69.9 cents/liter.
So ... Alberta (or Calgary) ... what's up????
Determinator
it would appear that PROFITS are up!!
(ya gotta love the free market system)
Raymond J. Henry
http://www.thisismoney.com/20020407/nm46589.html
Current conversion:
.749 British Pound = 1.85787 Canadian Dollar
So it looks like they are paying about $1.86/litre for fuel....
"Penguin" <Pen...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:3D472E48...@netscape.net...
> ...that's (74.9 x 4.54 =) $3.40 an imperial gallon, and years ago we
laughed
> at the British for paying $2.20 a gallon, I wonder what they are paying
now?
>
>
Sharx.
"Raymond J. Henry" <rayhenry@?mts.net> wrote in message
news:fkG19.17364$A72.1...@news1.mts.net...
> The most current price I could find for petrol in Britain was 74.9 at
> http://www.thisismoney.com/20020407/nm46589.html
>
> Current conversion:
> .749 British Pound = 1.85787 Canadian Dollar
>
> So it looks like they are paying about $1.86/litre for fuel....
And still it doesn't seem to curb what is probably a whole lot of needless
driving, e.g. how OFTEN does one have to go to the library, get groceries,
etc. Once a week is plenty for me.
Newsgroup ID - All mail to bit bucket
>
> And still it doesn't seem to curb what is probably a whole lot of needless
> driving, e.g. how OFTEN does one have to go to the library, get groceries,
> etc. Once a week is plenty for me.
>
Do you remember the movie "Mad Max"? That's going to be me. I'm going to
have the last V8 gas guzzling speed machine on earth. :-)
Sharx.
"Newsgroup ID - All mail to bit bucket" <spam...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:3D475E15...@shaw.ca...
I surely remember that movie. I guess the point is that a lot of the people
who WHINE about the cost of gas could easier use less without it having much
of an affect on their lifestyle. It's mostly a matter of PLANNING.
Peter D
laughed
>at the British for paying $2.20 a gallon, I wonder what they are paying
now?
Way, way more than we are. Dunno if they are still the most expensive
place in Europe, but no surprises if they are. They pay almost double
what we pay. And they did last year as well.
--
Peter D
User
electric car. At least with an electric car we get to keep the resource
money in Canada as opposed to buying iol at market from the middle east.
If Canada would break free from the oil companies grip we coud get better
access to such vehicles one day. Once we tend to get a little older our need
for speed seems to ween a little. An electric car would suit our needs as a
family vehicle just fine I think.
Zero emmissions? What are we waiting for?
"Penguin" <Pen...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:3D472E48...@netscape.net...
> * Glenn * wrote:
>
Sharx.
"Thine Prophet of Kaos" <ka...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in message
news:pn4fkuostokmtrj3s...@4ax.com...
> long as possible.
>
> And yet, the price of gas still bothers me...
I couldn't care less if it increased to FIVE dollars a litre. Frankly, that
just might clear off the roads some.
> --
> "THE HAMSTERS! DEAR BOB IN HEAVEN,
> MAKE ME STOP THINKING ABOUT THE HAMSTERS!"
> - Will, "Fans"
tnr
@nospam.com says...
>
>
> "Raymond J. Henry" <rayhenry@?mts.net> wrote in message
> news:fkG19.17364$A72.1...@news1.mts.net...
> > The most current price I could find for petrol in Britain was 74.9 at
> > http://www.thisismoney.com/20020407/nm46589.html
> >
> > Current conversion:
> > .749 British Pound = 1.85787 Canadian Dollar
> >
> > So it looks like they are paying about $1.86/litre for fuel....
>
> And still it doesn't seem to curb what is probably a whole lot of needless
> driving, e.g. how OFTEN does one have to go to the library, get groceries,
> etc. Once a week is plenty for me.
Obviously you don't have kids.
Unikrom!
South" but uses the Middle East for $$$ amount.
Europe & Asia gets their oil from the Middle East
"User" <Us...@home.com> wrote in message
news:mjN19.78446$f05.3...@news1.calgary.shaw.ca...
Dave 2
> Well ... just came back from Vancouver ... you know ... the expensive city.
>
> Their gas is only 69.9 cents/liter.
Don't blink, while it *was* 69.9 on July 29, on July 30 it increased to 78.9
http://van.bc.gastips.com/region?id=westside
75.4 Superstore Marine & Main(78.9-3.5centsSuper$=75.4) Wed 2 AM digimon
78.9 PetroCanada Cambie & Marine Wed 2 AM digimon
78.9 Chevron Cambie & 59th Ave Wed 2 AM digimon
78.9 Esso Cambie & 41st Ave Wed 2 AM digimon
78.9 Chevron Cambie & 16h Ave Wed 2 AM digimon
78.9 Shell Oak & King Edward Wed 2 AM digimon
78.9 Mohawk Oak & King Edward Wed 2 AM digimon
78.9 Chevron Oak & 41st Ave Wed 2 AM digimon
78.9 PetroCanada Oak & 41st Ave Wed 2 AM digimon
78.8 Esso Oak & 49th Ave Wed 2 AM digimon
78.9 Chevron Oak & 67th Ave Wed 2 AM digimon
78.9 Shell Granville & 71st Ave Tue 7 PM digimon
78.9 Chevron Granville & Marine Tue 7 PM digimon
78.9 Esso Granville & 41st ave Tue 7 PM digimon
78.9 Shell Granville & 41st Ave Tue 7 PM digimon
78.9 Husky Marine & 70th Ave Tue 7 PM digimon
75.4 Superstore Marine & Main(78.9-3.5centsSuper$=75.4) Tue 7 PM digimon
78.9 PetroCanada Cambie & Marine Tue 7 PM digimon
78.9 Chevron Cambie & 59th Ave Tue 7 PM digimon
78.9 Esso Cambie & 41st Ave Tue 7 PM digimon
78.9 Chevron Cambie & 16h Ave Tue 7 PM digimon
78.9 Shell Oak & King Edward Tue 7 PM digimon
78.9 Mohawk Oak & King Edward Tue 7 PM digimon
78.9 Chevron Oak & 41st Ave Tue 7 PM digimon
78.9 PetroCanada Oak & 41st Ave Tue 7 PM digimon
78.8 Esso Oak & 49th Ave Tue 7 PM digimon
78.9 Chevron Oak & 67th Ave Tue 7 PM digimon
78.9 Shell Granville & 71st Ave Tue 11 AM digimon
78.9 Chevron Marine & Granville Tue 11 AM digimon
78.9 Husky Marine & 70th Ave Tue 11 AM digimon
78.9 Shell Granville & 41st Ave Tue 11 AM digimon
78.9 PetroCanada Granville & 65th ave Tue 11 AM digimon
75.4 Superstore Marine & Main(78.9-3.5centssuper$=75.4) Tue 11 AM digimon
78.9 Esso Granville & 41st Ave Tue 11 AM digimon
78.9 PetroCanada Cambie & Marine Tue 11 AM digimon
78.9 Chevron Cambie & 59th Ave Tue 11 AM digimon
78.9 Esso Cambie & 41st Ave Tue 11 AM digimon
78.9 Chevron Cambie & 16h Ave Tue 11 AM digimon
78.9 Shell Oak & King Edward Tue 11 AM digimon
78.9 Mohawk Oak & King Edward Tue 11 AM digimon
78.9 Chevron Oak & 41st Ave Tue 11 AM digimon
78.9 PetroCanada Oak & 41st Ave Tue 11 AM digimon
78.8 Esso Oak & 49th Ave Tue 11 AM digimon
78.9 Chevron Oak & 67th Ave Tue 11 AM digimon
78.9 Chevron Granville & SW Marine Tue 8 AM 2FAS4ME
78.9 Esso Granville & 41st ave Tue 1 AM digimon
78.9 PetroCanada Granville & 65th Ave Tue 1 AM digimon
78.9 Shell Granville & 71st Ave Tue 1 AM digimon
78.9 Chevron Granville & Marine Tue 1 AM digimon
78.9 Husky Marine & 70th Ave Tue 1 AM digimon
75.4 Superstore Fraser & Marine(78.9-3.5centsSuper$=75.4) Tue 1 AM digimon
78.9 PetroCanada Cambie & Marine Tue 1 AM digimon
78.9 Chevron Cambie & 59th Ave Tue 1 AM digimon
78.9 Esso Cambie & 41st Ave Tue 1 AM digimon
78.9 Chevron Cambie & 16h Ave Tue 1 AM digimon
78.9 Shell Oak & King Edward Tue 1 AM digimon
78.9 Mohawk Oak & King Edward Tue 1 AM digimon
78.9 Chevron Oak & 41st Ave Tue 1 AM digimon
78.9 PetroCanada Oak & 41st Ave Tue 1 AM digimon
78.8 Esso Oak & 49th Ave Tue 1 AM digimon
78.9 Chevron Oak & 67th Ave Tue 1 AM digimon
78.9 PetroCanada Cambie & Marine Mon 10 PM digimon
69.9 Esso Cambie & 41st Ave Mon 10 PM digimon
Dave 2
> Hey, it's not that complex. Oil companies sell for what they want. How do
> you explain the years of gas being cheaper in Victoria than Vancouver?
That's easy. The GVRD transit tax is higher than the CRD transit tax.
Besides, gas is not *always* cheaper in Victoria, depending on market
conditions. Last weekend, gas was cheaper in Vancouver, today, it's
cheaper in Victoria. During the great gas war of '98-'99, gas was MUCH
cheaper in Vancouver, down to the mid 30s, and 28.5 out in the valley!
A Newz Uzer
"User" <Us...@home.com> wrote in message
news:mjN19.78446$f05.3...@news1.calgary.shaw.ca...
> It would be nice to be able to walk up and buy a fuel cell powered or
> electric car. At least with an electric car we get to keep the resource
> money in Canada as opposed to buying iol at market from the middle east.
Problem is, an electric car WON'T get you nearly as far as a gasoline car.
An electric car WILL cost as much as a gasoline car.
So, are you willing to buy a electric car for your in town trips and a
gasoline car for your longer trips (i.e. Calgary->Kelowna) ???
I'm all over an electric / hybrid as soon as they perform and cost the same
as a gasoline vehicle.
User
emmissions. The economic benefit is BC gets fuel/energy fees.
Honda had a nice pototype they sent to market but I hear it was sold beofre
it was produced. It won't e long.... unfortunately the US makers aren't as
motivated. Toyota is testing a fuel cell that is said to be much more robust
than anything they've used before..... we'll see.
I already have two vehicles. I would glady buy an electric city runabout to
replace a gas one.... I'll keep the gas VAN for camping and other
activities.
"A Newz Uzer" <bitb...@home.com> wrote in message
news:PCV19.79779$f05.3...@news1.calgary.shaw.ca...
veranda
Ethanol has only water vapour as emmisions , is a
renewable resopurce and has a very Green root since is made out of
plant extracts ( which should keep farmers bussy and happy ) .
What am I missing ?
Icepick
produce than it's worth. It's not economically, nor is it
evironmentally friendly. I too had high hopes for it, but the negatives
outweigh the positives. I think ethanol was a good learning step, but
is not the solution.
Patrick Duffy
veranda wrote:
> ** veranda : is there a reason why nobody talks about Ethanol ??!
> Ethanol has only water vapour as emmisions ,
This isn't true. Ethanol contains carbon and, when burned, will produce
carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide like common gasoline does (since it
also contains carbon). In addition, because we are burning our fuel in
air (which contains nitrogen) rather than pure oxygen, oxides of
nitrogen (NO2 among others) will be produced whether or not we use
ethanol. Catalytic converters and other refinements to the internal
combustion engine have helped reduce carbon monoxide and oxide of
nitrogen emissions, but they're still there, independent of the fuel used.
That said, using ethanol _does_ provide more oxygen for the combustion
process (ethanol contains oxygen), but it still does not completely
eliminate production of carbon monoxide.
> is a
> renewable resopurce and has a very Green root since is made out of
> plant extracts ( which should keep farmers bussy and happy ) .
Absolutely. If we could get it to work as well as gasoline does, it
would be an obvious choice.
> What am I missing ?
There are a couple of problems with ethanol:
1) It's controlled very tightly right now. It being the thing that
makes you intoxicated in drinks may introduce distribution problems if
we ever went to all-ethanol vehicles.
2) You don't get as much energy out of combustion of a gram of ethanol
as you do out of a gram of gasoline, which means that engines using it
will be less efficient and/or powerful. Ethanol is also, apparently,
not as smooth-burning as the stuff in gasoline (that is, it has a lower
octane rating).
3) (Rather more serious) Ethanol is extremely hygroscopic -- that is, it
attracts water to itself. This is severe enough that if you leave a
bottle of pure ethanol open to the air for any extended length of time,
you'll wind up with 95% ethanol and 5% water. The water, of course,
won't be good for the combustion process. :-) (Incidentally, that's
why you can't buy more than 190-proof liquor, if you've ever wondered.)
This may be gasoline's biggest advantage (it does not mix with water
at all).
Hope this helps.
--
Patrick Duffy, Instructor, Chemistry | Kwantlen University College
E-Mail: du...@telus.net | 8771 Lansdowne Road
Phone: (604) 599-2550 (vm 9615) | Richmond, B.C.
FAX: (604) 599-2716 | V6X 3V8
"Dogs have owners. Cats have staff."
Mike
but to call any of them "zero emission" is a mistake. Hydro electric dams,
nuclear reactors, they are not zero emissions. Solar is verry close and
likely the best but you still have to produce and maintain, and that causes
more emissions than zero.
"User" <Us...@home.com> wrote in message
news:wpX19.80199$f05.3...@news1.calgary.shaw.ca...
Sharx.
"tnr" <t...@nospam.org> wrote in message
news:MPG.17b16f38e...@shawnews.vn.shawcable.net...
So, exactly *who* put a gun to someone's head and FORCED them to have kids?
THEIR choice. THEIR decision. Make bed. Lie in it.
Ayr_Kabir
in the mid 70's with the OPEC oil embargo.... where has it got them?
The land has been leeched of nutrients, due to the overwhelming
ammount of sugar cane grown to support Ethanol fuels. Cars have
1/10th of the engine life as their gasoline powered equivlants
(Brazils primary mode of transport is the Volkswagon Beetle... so take
that as you will) Also, Solvent abuse is higher in Brazil than
anywhere else in the world.... guess it doesnt help that Ethanol is
powering their vehicles.
Ayr_Kabir
wrote:
>I agree that hybrid and electric vehicles are way better for the environment
>but to call any of them "zero emission" is a mistake. Hydro electric dams,
>nuclear reactors, they are not zero emissions. Solar is verry close and
>likely the best but you still have to produce and maintain, and that causes
>more emissions than zero.
ya, even the most efficient electric vehicles are going to produce
heaps of ozone...
Colt44
Government electric utilities to private business to manage.
Colt44
...just in time too, since the earths ozone layer is presently being destroyed.
Opus-
spake thusly:
Nope. Only repulsion motors generate ozone. Modern electric cars use
induction motors that have no ozone-creating sparks.
And just what emissions do hydro electric generators make?
--
jbu...@hotmail.com
(Jim, single dad to Lesleigh [Autistic] 04/20/94)
**Just doing my part to piss off the religious right**
Real Winnipeg Usenet starts here: news:wpg.general
Please note: All unsolicited e-mail sent to me may, at
my discretion, be posted in this newsgroup verbatim.
Opus-
spake thusly:
The jury is very much out on that one.
Newsgroup ID - All mail to bit bucket
Ozone produced down here does not replace the ozone "up there" and is
actually harmful down here.
nOoNe
*I don't know that they cost the same to run. The main benefit is zero
*emmissions. The economic benefit is BC gets fuel/energy fees.
*
*Honda had a nice pototype they sent to market but I hear it was sold
beofre
*it was produced. It won't e long.... unfortunately the US makers aren't
as
*motivated. Toyota is testing a fuel cell that is said to be much more
robust
*than anything they've used before..... we'll see.
*
*I already have two vehicles. I would glady buy an electric city
runabout to
*replace a gas one.... I'll keep the gas VAN for camping and other
*activities.
Honda has what you want, just not at the price you want. They
have a hybrid gas/electric that gets 70 mpg, and never needs
to be recharged. It's a fancy, all the bells and whistles Honda
Civic for $28,500. It works out to about an extra $6,000 for the
electric part. That'll buy a whole lot of gas, even at $1 a litre.
It would make a perfect city car.
nOoNe
wrote:
** Glenn * wrote:
*
*> Well ... just came back from Vancouver ... you know ... the expensive
city.
*>
*> Their gas is only 69.9 cents/liter.
*>
*> So ... Alberta (or Calgary) ... what's up????
*
*...that's (74.9 x 4.54 =) $3.40 an imperial gallon, and years ago we
laughed
*at the British for paying $2.20 a gallon, I wonder what they are paying
now?
*
That's about Cdn$3.00 a US gallon. Since the US price is not much more
than a US$1.25 a gallon, or Cdn$2.00 a US gallon, there's an extra
Cdn$1.00 per US gallon charged in Canada, roughly 50¢ a litre. How is it
possible that Canadian taxes can be so high and no one complains?
It's not like our roads etc are in great shape. Where does all this tax
money go? Certainly not for road construction/maintenance.
It's high time there was a law that prohibited the collection of taxes
on one segment to raise money for other purposes. It's just a hidden
user fee. All the taxes collected from motor vehicles should be used
toward maintenance in that area. Same for other silly taxes collected
and used for special interest groups. Money for general purpose
projects, like hospitals and schools should come from general revenues
which should be generated from income taxes only.
Property taxes should be eliminated and replaced by an income tax on all
income earners in the city, at a rate that would be revenue neutral.
This way, old folks living in expensive older homes wouldn't have to pay
as much tax, whereas the city would collect multiple times from two
income families etc. Some would pay more, some would pay less -- but it
would be fairer based on income than property value, which the city
can't figure out anyway. No more arguments, you got income, you pay; no
income, no pay.
Schools are a provincial responsibility in every way but collecting the
money to run them. Let the province pay 100%, then collect it back in
income tax. What's the use of having an Alberta Advantage (in low income
tax), if there's hundreds of user fees, lower service levels, and high
property taxes etc.
Sharx.
"nOoNe" <No...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:diehkuof0pmv3ka8t...@4ax.com...
Hear! Hear! Finally a breath of sanity in this thread. Assets do NOT fairly
represent people's ability to pay taxes. The preceding poster is correct in
stating that taxes should be based on INCOME.
Colt44
> On Wed, 31 Jul 2002 22:25:34 -0400, Colt44 <Col...@The.Old.Corral>
> spake thusly:
>
> >Ayr_Kabir wrote:
> >
> >> On Wed, 31 Jul 2002 18:44:27 -0700, "Mike" <illlet...@mts.net>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >I agree that hybrid and electric vehicles are way better for the environment
> >> >but to call any of them "zero emission" is a mistake. Hydro electric dams,
> >> >nuclear reactors, they are not zero emissions. Solar is verry close and
> >> >likely the best but you still have to produce and maintain, and that causes
> >> >more emissions than zero.
> >>
> >> ya, even the most efficient electric vehicles are going to produce
> >> heaps of ozone...
> >
> >...just in time too, since the earths ozone layer is presently being destroyed.
> >
> The jury is very much out on that one.
...you mean the ozone layer is NOT being destroyed...right?
Colt44
...how do you know?
Sharx.
"Colt44" <Col...@The.Old.Corral> wrote in message
news:3D48D643...@The.Old.Corral...
Yet another exaggeration of the left-libs. BORING!
>
>
User
to him (he was first in Canada to get one apparantly)
I'd love one and will get one one day.
There has always been the arguement that electric power does create its own
problems at source etc. My arguement is its a better alternative to gas all
around.
We must start putting Canadians first. We can generate enough power for our
own vehicle needs if we wish too. It might mean more hydro electric dams etc
but it would mean we no longer have to buy oil at market and export our
money.
It would clean up some problems on the roads I suspect as these cars aren't
designed for racing and have poor pickup. We are being manipulated into the
status quo by oil and gas lobbies and greedy politicians who cater to them.
If anywhere on earth should be driving electric or fuel cell vehicles its
Canada..... particularily BC.
Imagine a smog free lower mainland...... like in the 70's...... on a clear
sunny day we will once again be the most beautiful region on earth.
I'lll gladly buy one of these cars and in fact will go out of my way to see
if it can be arranged next year when we replace a vehicle.
It always amazes me that so many people argue in favor of the gas powered
combustion engines in spite of all the costs and pollution issues. Even if
emissions is the only benefit its the responsiblity of people who can afford
to drive one of these cars to consider it.... we all have a responsibility
to do what we can. Rigs and other vehicles can't switch over just yet but 1
million or so cars can.
I predict that once an automaker makes a decent unit readily available they
will become standard here. The quietness alone will be enough for some...
they make no noise at a stop.
One day we'll see fuel cells in all vehicles I suspect...... only the oil
companies are blocking this transition.... its long overdue.
"nOoNe" <No...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:daehkuk2ecpgmkf29...@4ax.com...
Opus-
spake thusly:
Did I say that? I said the jury is still very much out on that one.
User
needless
> > driving, e.g. how OFTEN does one have to go to the library, get
groceries,
> > etc. Once a week is plenty for me.
>
> Obviously you don't have kids.
I beleive we live lifestyles of convenience simply because we are all a
little overworked, overstressed and have lost the ability to appreciate a
walk to the store or park.
Since having kids I find myself enjoying more and more the time I spend
walking outdoors with them. I walk to the grocery store on occasion and take
a walk to the park etc instead of driving more than not.
My wife on the other hand seems run off her feet with errands etc. I once
took a look at where she was going and why... I discovered she had a habit
of breaking up her shopping.... hitting two different malls or grocery
stores for various reasons in the same trip.
This is mostly a lifestyle habit. A car may be needed once a week or so for
this sort of trip but over time I guess she has just learned to address each
need as it arises. We can just as easily teach ourselves to avoid these
mostly uneccesary trips out. If we did the math I'm sure we'd see that it is
often far more costly driving twenty minutes to save $5-$10 on an item than
walking to the local store.
We don't plan our living communities very well in BC and are left with strip
malls and often long distances between errands causing us to resort to
driving instinctively.
Hopefully we as a society can drop the mad rush lifestyle and get back to
what is important... health and happiness.
User
A monster home with 6 bathrooms and 15 people living in it sends a dozen
kids to school and flushes the toilet x amount of times more than the little
condo up the road. Since head taxes aren't a consideration here the only
close second is a proerty tax. I'd rather see a head tax as filling one home
with 4 families and saying "its our culture" is what I consider a sleazy
un-Canadian action.
Unfortunately income tax with no other assiciated fees would not compensate
for the raping of Canadas infrastructure.
I was talking to two eledrly tourists form Britain a few years ago and they
were excited the gvernment there finally brought in the head tax as they
said "immigrants" were ruining the social systems by doing exactly what I
just mentioned.
If you have 10 kids going to school from one house and using the toilets etc
you are not paying your fair share no matter how much income tax you pay.
"Sharx." <sha...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:_1429.9347$Z5.3...@news1.telusplanet.net...
Apollyon Canaan
"Raymond J. Henry" <rayhenry@?mts.net> wrote in message
news:fkG19.17364$A72.1...@news1.mts.net...
> The most current price I could find for petrol in Britain was 74.9 at
> http://www.thisismoney.com/20020407/nm46589.html
>
> Current conversion:
> .749 British Pound = 1.85787 Canadian Dollar
>
> So it looks like they are paying about $1.86/litre for fuel....
>
>
> news:3D472E48...@netscape.net...
> > * Glenn * wrote:
> >
> city.
> > >
> > >
> >
> laughed
> now?
last time i was there in april of 2001 it was about 83-86p a litre. Talking
to dad bout a month ago the price had fallen to about 79-82 p a litre. That
may seem cheaper when you convert to canuck bucks but to the UK it is
relatively unchanged. Apparently a New ASDA near oour town had a sale one
full about 3 months ago. 69p a litre.....
Newsgroup ID - All mail to bit bucket
A Newz Uzer
> I'd love one and will get one one day.
I'd love one too, but it isn't practical for me yet.
> There has always been the arguement that electric power does create its
own
> problems at source etc. My arguement is its a better alternative to gas
all
> around.
Cleanup is MUCH more managable at one source than it is trying to get all
the cars out there scrubbing their own exhausts! Even if electric isn't
clean, it is cleaner than the gas we use now.
> It would clean up some problems on the roads I suspect as these cars
aren't
> designed for racing and have poor pickup. We are being manipulated into
the
> status quo by oil and gas lobbies and greedy politicians who cater to
them.
Unfortunately, if the car is a dog, I'm not interested. I don't race and
think it's stupid but considering how short some of the merge lanes are in
Calgary, you need a decent amount of pickup to get up to speed before
merging.
> It always amazes me that so many people argue in favor of the gas powered
> combustion engines in spite of all the costs and pollution issues.
Try driving your little electric vehicle from Vancouver to Banff and see how
well it does through the mountains. Until the electics/hybrids are as
practical as the gas guzzlers they will be just a gimmick.
> One day we'll see fuel cells in all vehicles I suspect...... only the oil
> companies are blocking this transition.... its long overdue.
I'm looking forward to the day, but it's still a long way off.
A Newz Uzer
EXACTLY!
Tax collected at the pump and on tires, fees paid for licences, etc... All
go toward maintaining the road system. Taxes on cigarettes and fast food for
the health system.
Income tax should be a flat tax... XX% of income, period. It should also be
LOW. If I earn a dollar, it's mine. I'll decide where to spend it. People
should be charged tax as individuals - ie, no married benefits/charges, etc.
Politicians should be held accountable. Pension based on how many days they
actually showed up for work. Pay based on how many hours they are at their
office. Taxed on their FULL income with no free perks. Let them live like
the rest of us!!!
"nOoNe" <No...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:diehkuof0pmv3ka8t...@4ax.com...
> That's about Cdn$3.00 a US gallon. Since the US price is not much more
A Newz Uzer
> A monster home with 6 bathrooms and 15 people living in it sends a dozen
> kids to school and flushes the toilet x amount of times more than the
little
> condo up the road. Since head taxes aren't a consideration here the only
> close second is a proerty tax. I'd rather see a head tax as filling one
home
> with 4 families and saying "its our culture" is what I consider a sleazy
> un-Canadian action.
> If you have 10 kids going to school from one house and using the toilets
etc
> you are not paying your fair share no matter how much income tax you pay.
If you can afford to raise 10 kids, the taxes collected on that income will
definately cover the costs. Welfare income should be taxed like any other
income (or better yet, have a "welfare" currency that can't be used for
booze, smokes and the like.)
The problem with your example is that you assume that they'll have that big
house. Usually they all cram into a crappy little $80K house with bunk-beds
in the living room.
A friend of mine in Toronto actually had to file an insurance claim because
there was a family above him who lined a bedroom with garbage bags and were
growing food. The bags finally let go and a whole bunch of water came
through and wrecked some of his belongings.
Ayr_Kabir
wrote:
>On Thu, 01 Aug 2002 02:17:39 GMT, Ayr_Kabir <iron-...@iran.org>
>spake thusly:
>
>>On Wed, 31 Jul 2002 18:44:27 -0700, "Mike" <illlet...@mts.net>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>I agree that hybrid and electric vehicles are way better for the environment
>>>but to call any of them "zero emission" is a mistake. Hydro electric dams,
>>>nuclear reactors, they are not zero emissions. Solar is verry close and
>>>likely the best but you still have to produce and maintain, and that causes
>>>more emissions than zero.
>>
>>
>>ya, even the most efficient electric vehicles are going to produce
>>heaps of ozone...
>>
>Nope. Only repulsion motors generate ozone. Modern electric cars use
>induction motors that have no ozone-creating sparks.
>And just what emissions do hydro electric generators make?
You tell me, Im in favour of Hydro power.... I just think they should
do a better job of clearcutting the vally they flood, so that we get
the timber out of the deal too. Not flooding the land, and having
dead logs bursting to the surface 10 years later when the roots
finally give out. (good examples in northern BC of this)
Dam the rivers, dam the stream, dam anything that flows.... And they
should put up some more of those wind turbines too... its f'n windy
enough in alberta. Go to California and you will see thousands of
them spanning the horizon. Time to put those on some land around
Lethbridge, and make something out of that wind.
Peter D
>Hi!
>
>EXACTLY!
>
>Tax collected at the pump and on tires, fees paid for licences, etc...
All
>go toward maintaining the road system. Taxes on cigarettes and fast
food for
>the health system.
You do know that that's the theory but in reality it all goes to general
revenue -- loans to their buddies, trips to foreign places, expensive
meals at the best hotels, new stuff for their offices, etc.
--
Peter D
Peter D
>If you can afford to raise 10 kids, the taxes collected on that income
will
>definately cover the costs. Welfare income should be taxed like any
other
>income
It is, isn't it? Don't you have to list all sources of income on yuor
return -- including ei and welfare?
--
Peter D
Sharx.
"User" <Us...@home.com> wrote in message
news:DD529.82506$f05.4...@news1.calgary.shaw.ca...
> > > And still it doesn't seem to curb what is probably a whole lot of
> needless
> > > driving, e.g. how OFTEN does one have to go to the library, get
> groceries,
> > > etc. Once a week is plenty for me.
> >
> > Obviously you don't have kids.
>
> I beleive we live lifestyles of convenience simply because we are all a
> little overworked, overstressed and have lost the ability to appreciate a
> walk to the store or park.
>
> Since having kids I find myself enjoying more and more the time I spend
> walking outdoors with them. I walk to the grocery store on occasion and
take
> a walk to the park etc instead of driving more than not.
>
> My wife on the other hand seems run off her feet with errands etc. I once
> took a look at where she was going and why... I discovered she had a habit
> of breaking up her shopping.... hitting two different malls or grocery
> stores for various reasons in the same trip.
>
> This is mostly a lifestyle habit. A car may be needed once a week or so
for
> this sort of trip but over time I guess she has just learned to address
each
> need as it arises.
You just hit the nail on the head. The main problem in our society:
insistence on being able to do everything NOW, instead of planning a
sensible schedule. I bet you that have the vehicles on the road are
accounted for by that explanation. PLAN. PLAN. PLAN.