Re: Aquarium question for anyone except John Pike
nospam
salt water aquariums setup
"J" <flam...@NOSPAMshaw.ca> wrote in message
news:VqMqd.376965$nl.23675@pd7tw3no...
> Interested in a salt water setup, have no idea what's involved and what
> kind
> of cost i'm lookin at. Anyone have any advice and/or info?
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
J
Jon Pike
news:VqMqd.376965$nl.23675@pd7tw3no:
> Interested in a salt water setup, have no idea what's involved and
> what kind of cost i'm lookin at. Anyone have any advice and/or info?
>
>
> Thanks
You can start out as cheap as you want basically. About.com has some
really great tutorials on the subject. You -have- to do a -lot- of
reading before getting into salt tanks or you'll just end up wasting a
lot of money.
For instance: Are you interested in a reef tank? Fish only? Fish & Live
Rock? What kind of filtration do you want to set up? Canister? berlin?
sand?
If you can't answer all of these questions -immediatly- and cofidently
without any doubt whatsoever that you aren't sure what the differences
between them are, then you've got several weeks of reading to do at
least.
Finally, if you really do have -no- idea what's involved or the cost
you're looking at, then you probably haven't done much intensive
freshwater work, have you? By that i mean, have you done weekly water
tests to find out exactly when your new tank has cycled? You do have more
than one tank, right? or have had in the past? Have you done any simple
breeding of fresh fish before? If you haven't done these basics, then
you're probably not really ready to consider marine tanks yet.
As for cost, how big a tank do you want? What kind of filtration?
Filtration alone can be as much (or more) than the cost of the original
tank! Or it can be a whole hell of a lot less, too. What kind of salt
tank do you want to run? Fish only? Marine fish aren't cheap!
And who's this "John Pike" guy you're talking about?
Mike S
"Jon Pike" <Anono...@spamlesshotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns95B09B1CE3592L...@24.71.223.159...
Mike S
don't advertise it here.
"Mike S" <pchqN...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:znNqd.208519$df2.5182@edtnps89...
Jon Pike
> PS Jon, I have nothing against you.... my last name is worse - thus
> I don't advertise it here.
>
> "Mike S" <pchqN...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
> news:znNqd.208519$df2.5182@edtnps89...
>> hehe Jon Pike the fish guy :)
Actually, I was being nit-picky about "jon" vs "john" ...
And I'm sure what you've brought to everyone's mind now that you've
mentioned your last name, and only left the initial "S." :P
Mike S
There are a lot of words that start with S, I'm interested to see where
your logic has taken you.
Jon Pike
Lots of words, yes, but not many that one would be embaressed about having
in their name :P
Mike S
not mine. It could have been Salmon, and still been embarassing in the same
context as Pike.... anyways.... why am I giving hints? I'm done now.
"Jon Pike" <Anono...@spamlesshotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns95B0ADA31360AL...@24.71.223.159...
kelly
beauty. read as much as you can before getting into the hobby ....
canreef.com is a great site for us canadians and be prepared to open
your wallet.
k
Jon Prick
>not mine. It could have been Salmon, and still been embarassing in the same
>context as Pike.... anyways.... why am I giving hints? I'm done now.
blah
http://www.neopets.com/refer.phtml?username=moosespet
PurplePeopleEater
with any questions u may have , and i would also suggest that u read and
pick up a few books on your particular interest.
I`d say call my brother in law because he seems to find it easy as hell.
however its not for everyone , and u may find its more work than u want.
you may find though thats its just what u`ve been wanting.
Expensive hobby yes , worth the effort and time if the tank is developed
right , and u have time to culture it, and watch it for the first few months
"J" <flam...@NOSPAMshaw.ca> wrote in message
news:VqMqd.376965$nl.23675@pd7tw3no...
Calgary
I have read most of the replies in this thread and if some are to be
believed, and if I knew nothing on the subject, I would leave with the
impression keeping marine fish is only for the advanced aquarist.
Nothing is further from the truth. Even using technology from twenty
years ago one can successfully keep marine fish with little more
effort than a fresh water tank and no prior experience is required.
There are a handful of salt water fish that are every bit as hardy and
just as easy to keep as fresh. The best part is they are brilliantly
coloured and far more active than most fresh water fish.
Do some research, add a generous supply of patience, condition your
tank properly and stick to the hardy and easy to keep fish and you
will be fine.
Don Binns
84 - Virago 1000
When an ill wind blows you can either build a hut or hoist a sail.
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/reeky.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/banff.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/kananaskis.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/walkercalgary.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/calgarybrowning.htm
Jon Pike
news:v3snq01o61ou0lmq3...@4ax.com:
> On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 21:23:01 GMT, "J" <flam...@NOSPAMshaw.ca> wrote:
>
>>Interested in a salt water setup, have no idea what's involved and
>>what kind of cost i'm lookin at. Anyone have any advice and/or info?
>>
>>
>>Thanks
>>
>
> I have read most of the replies in this thread and if some are to be
> believed, and if I knew nothing on the subject, I would leave with the
> impression keeping marine fish is only for the advanced aquarist.
>
> Nothing is further from the truth. Even using technology from twenty
> years ago one can successfully keep marine fish with little more
> effort than a fresh water tank and no prior experience is required.
>
> There are a handful of salt water fish that are every bit as hardy and
> just as easy to keep as fresh. The best part is they are brilliantly
> coloured and far more active than most fresh water fish.
>
> Do some research, add a generous supply of patience, condition your
> tank properly and stick to the hardy and easy to keep fish and you
> will be fine.
....
right. First you say no prior experience is required, then you say
"condition your tank properly." How does someone with no prior experience
know that their tank is properly "conditioned?" (cycled)
If you want to abuse whatever fish you want to buy, and have a strong
chance of killing several, if not all, of them, sure go ahead and jump
right in.
If you want to keep your fish alive for any length of time, and have them
thriving instead of just surviving, you really do need a fair amount of
experience.
"Even using technology from twenty years ago" ...
Well, considering that people haven't really changed how water pumps (for
aquaria), and for that matter air pumps, work in probably the last 50-100
+ years, that's absolutely true. But that doesn't mean that aquaria
keeping is a simple matter.
Calgary
<Anono...@spamlesshotmail.com> wrote:
>Calgary <dlbcalde...@telus.net> wrote in
>news:v3snq01o61ou0lmq3...@4ax.com:
>
>> On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 21:23:01 GMT, "J" <flam...@NOSPAMshaw.ca> wrote:
>>
>>>Interested in a salt water setup, have no idea what's involved and
>>>what kind of cost i'm lookin at. Anyone have any advice and/or info?
>>>
>>>
>>>Thanks
>>>
>>
>> I have read most of the replies in this thread and if some are to be
>> believed, and if I knew nothing on the subject, I would leave with the
>> impression keeping marine fish is only for the advanced aquarist.
>>
>> Nothing is further from the truth. Even using technology from twenty
>> years ago one can successfully keep marine fish with little more
>> effort than a fresh water tank and no prior experience is required.
>>
>> There are a handful of salt water fish that are every bit as hardy and
>> just as easy to keep as fresh. The best part is they are brilliantly
>> coloured and far more active than most fresh water fish.
>>
>> Do some research, add a generous supply of patience, condition your
>> tank properly and stick to the hardy and easy to keep fish and you
>> will be fine.
>
>....
>right. First you say no prior experience is required, then you say
>"condition your tank properly." How does someone with no prior experience
>know that their tank is properly "conditioned?" (cycled)
First you can ignore what I wrote. I advised him to do some research,
as I would have advised if he was interested in a fresh water tank.
>
>If you want to abuse whatever fish you want to buy, and have a strong
>chance of killing several, if not all, of them, sure go ahead and jump
>right in.
>
>If you want to keep your fish alive for any length of time, and have them
>thriving instead of just surviving, you really do need a fair amount of
>experience.
Bullshit. Start with some good advice and follow a few general
principles and I bet even a dolt like you can keep a damsel alive and
healthy.
As much as you may want to make it out to be, this is not rocket
science. It is really very simple.
>"Even using technology from twenty years ago" ...
>Well, considering that people haven't really changed how water pumps (for
>aquaria), and for that matter air pumps, work in probably the last 50-100
>+ years, that's absolutely true. But that doesn't mean that aquaria
>keeping is a simple matter.
I beg to differ. The advent of magnetic impellers significantly
changed the way aquarium filters operate. Even the simple change
Hagen made popular with the Aqua Clear by pumping water into the
filter box as opposed to pumping the water out of the box
significantly eased the regular maintenance required by a filter.
Ever use a Bizonic power filter? You would know what I mean.
I recall the days when the only air pump with decent capacity was a
piston pump. Loud and expensive, but they worked.
Commercially central water filtration were unheard of 25 years ago,
but now virtually every retail and wholesale fish store uses the
system.
What I was referring to is the simplicity of a basic biological
filter.
I spent 15 years in the pet business. I have owned several stores,
one of which was a Salt Water specialty store and franchised a dozen
others and for the life of me I never understood why some continuously
propagate the myth that you have to be experienced in fresh before you
go to salt. I've got news for you I dealt with thousands who went
directly to salt, enjoyed the hobby and were totally successful with
it.
Maybe you are justifying your failures by perpetuating the myth.
DevilsPGD
<Anono...@spamlesshotmail.com> wrote:
>right. First you say no prior experience is required, then you say
>"condition your tank properly." How does someone with no prior experience
>know that their tank is properly "conditioned?" (cycled)
Research? Look it up? Assuming the population is aging, how do you
expect "the new generation" to learn to maintain fishtanks?
--
Some people are like Slinkies... You can't help but
smile when you see one tumble down the stairs.
J
> If you want to keep your fish alive for any length of time, and have them
> thriving instead of just surviving, you really do need a fair amount of
> experience.
>
And how does anyone get experience? you have to start somewhere.
I don't know, maybe you think one night the "experience fairy" comes to
visit and *poof* you are now ready to start a fucking fish tank.......
Jon Pike
news:fdunq0hml2r5j6sai...@4ax.com:
>>....
>>right. First you say no prior experience is required, then you say
>>"condition your tank properly." How does someone with no prior
>>experience know that their tank is properly "conditioned?" (cycled)
>
> First you can ignore what I wrote. I advised him to do some research,
> as I would have advised if he was interested in a fresh water tank.
>>
>>If you want to abuse whatever fish you want to buy, and have a strong
>>chance of killing several, if not all, of them, sure go ahead and jump
>>right in.
>>
>>If you want to keep your fish alive for any length of time, and have
>>them thriving instead of just surviving, you really do need a fair
>>amount of experience.
>
> Bullshit. Start with some good advice and follow a few general
> principles and I bet even a dolt like you can keep a damsel alive and
> healthy.
*shakes head*
Research and reading contribute to someone's experience.
You can't tell someone they can do it with no experience, and then tell
them to go and research the subject. It's an outright contradiction.
But hey, way to go not answering my question!
Jon Pike
news:u5boq0tq02nca7p9u...@news.supernews.com:
> In message <Xns95B0DC36836DBL...@24.71.223.159> Jon Pike
> <Anono...@spamlesshotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>right. First you say no prior experience is required, then you say
>>"condition your tank properly." How does someone with no prior
>>experience know that their tank is properly "conditioned?" (cycled)
>
> Research? Look it up? Assuming the population is aging, how do you
> expect "the new generation" to learn to maintain fishtanks?
As I just said in another post, reading and research contribute to your
experience. If you have done some reading, you have a little experience. If
you have no experience, you've got no way whatsoever of knowing when your
tank is 'ready.'
Jon Pike
news:Fb2rd.378846$Pl.72471@pd7tw1no:
Oh look, another moron!
Yes, you have to start somewhere. However, you don't teach someone to drive
by sticking them directly in the indi-500 do you? No. They'd be liable to
kill themselves, and likely someone else too. You don't -start- out with
the most difficult and advanced placement. You start out at the beginning,
and increase the difficulty of your task as you gain confidence and skills.
Nobody in the world starts into aquaria by deciding they're going to build
a 5000 gallon reef tank and make it self-sustaining.
You START at the BEGINNING, like any intelligent person would do when
venturing into a new area.
J
"Jon Pike" <Anono...@spamlesshotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns95B17124E81F6L...@24.71.223.159...
> "J" <flam...@NOSPAMshaw.ca> wrote in
> news:Fb2rd.378846$Pl.72471@pd7tw1no:
>
> >
> > "Jon Pike" <Anono...@spamlesshotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:Xns95B0DC36836DBL...@24.71.223.159...
> >> If you want to keep your fish alive for any length of time, and have
> >> them thriving instead of just surviving, you really do need a fair
> >> amount of experience.
> >>
> >
> > And how does anyone get experience? you have to start somewhere.
> >
> Oh look, another moron!
I think we all know who the Moron is in this group...
> Yes, you have to start somewhere. However, you don't teach someone to
drive
> by sticking them directly in the indi-500 do you? No. They'd be liable to
> kill themselves, and likely someone else too. You don't -start- out with
> the most difficult and advanced placement. You start out at the beginning,
It is a Myth that Salt is more advanced than fresh water, so what's wrong
with starting out in salt? Fuck, I didn't say I wanted to raise octopi and
jelly fish......
> and increase the difficulty of your task as you gain confidence and
skills.
>
> Nobody in the world starts into aquaria by deciding they're going to build
> a 5000 gallon reef tank and make it self-sustaining.
Who said anything about a 5000 gallon reef tank, dumbass.
Jon Pike
@pd7tw1no:
> It is a Myth that Salt is more advanced than fresh water, so what's wrong
> with starting out in salt?
LOL
You say that because one person on usenet said that?
That's so stupid! REGARDLESS of who it is and what 'qualifications' they
claim to have!
Who's the moron? Someone telling you to do lots and lots of reading to make
sure you know your subject matter before going and wasting lots of money
and killing lots of fish, or someone telling you to dive right in with no
experience?
Did you go to about.com and check out their information? Did you go to your
local library yet?
In fact, the greatest indicator that the person saying what you're broken-
record'ing doesn't know what he's talking about, is that he's making proper
fish keeping, of any kind, sound easy. It's NOT. It's a lot of hard work,
and there's a lot of knowledge required. People who know what they're
talking about take up to two months to get their tank going before even
buying their fish. If you don't knowk why (and it's pretty clear you don't)
then you're not ready for salt.
J
> "J" <flam...@NOSPAMshaw.ca> wrote in news:p03rd.378969$Pl.210895
> @pd7tw1no:
>
> > It is a Myth that Salt is more advanced than fresh water, so what's
wrong
> > with starting out in salt?
>
> LOL
> You say that because one person on usenet said that?
ummm, No. Actually, I did some research.
> That's so stupid! REGARDLESS of who it is and what 'qualifications' they
> claim to have!
Well, why should I listen to you? you are the newsgroup idiot, everyone
seems to have a problem with you. Therefore you have no credibility
whatsoever.
>
> Who's the moron? Someone telling you to do lots and lots of reading to
make
> sure you know your subject matter before going and wasting lots of money
> and killing lots of fish, or someone telling you to dive right in with no
> experience?
>
well considering the other poster did tell me to read up and research
first..... guess you don't know how to read?
> Did you go to about.com and check out their information? Did you go to
your
> local library yet?
>
> In fact, the greatest indicator that the person saying what you're broken-
> record'ing doesn't know what he's talking about, is that he's making
proper
> fish keeping, of any kind, sound easy. It's NOT. It's a lot of hard work,
> and there's a lot of knowledge required. People who know what they're
> talking about take up to two months to get their tank going before even
> buying their fish. If you don't knowk why (and it's pretty clear you
don't)
Actually I already knew you had to get the tank cycled, and ready first.
> then you're not ready for salt.
Why don't you post your qualifications, and how about pictures of all your
salt water setups?
>
> --
> http://www.neopets.com/refer.phtml?username=moosespet
Mike S
"J" <flam...@NOSPAMshaw.ca> wrote in message
hehe.... you should have never presented a challenge... now you in for it.
Go get him Jon! *loving this!* (Sorry to everyone else!)
Shiver Me Timbers
and frankly who hasn't.
Years ago me and the ex had a couple of fresh water aquariams set up in
the old homestead including a fifty gallon showpiece in the living
room.
Well I wasn't the best housekeeper when it came to the fishes but they
always seemed to do okay.
I had one of those big plastic siphon tubes about three inches in
diameter and I'll tell you when I decided from time to time to siphon
out the sludge from the gravel, the water was cloudy for many days
afterwards.
One day I got the urge to set up a salt water jobbie and after
listening to everyone tell me how hard it was blah blah blah,
I just went out and bought a box of sea salt and a grouper.
Now the grouper was the only salt water fish the store had, and at
about fifty bucks for the little gaffer it seemed like an expensive way
to season a tank.
Long and short of it..... The dang fish wouldn't eat.
I kept throwing in these fresh water feeder fish and they kept swimming
around in the salt water for days and days and days.
They wouldn't die and the grouper wouldn't eat them.
Now after many weeks I thought maybe I should try a different type of
feeder fish so off to the store I went, and an hour later I was home
with a baggy of something different.
I threw one into the aquariam and BAM..... It was gone in a heartbeat.
Well over the next hour I threw in sixteen more before I decided that
the grouper was a bottomless pit and that enough was enough for the
day.
After a few more weeks I took the grouper back to the store and traded
him in for a sackfull of yellow whatevers. Sorry but I can't remember
what they were.
Algae used to grow over everything so thick you couldn't see through
the glass, and I used to take a credit card and scrape down the inside
walls of the tank. It was so thick on a couple pieces of coral I had
that I used to take the coral out and soak it in bleach for a day then
rinsed it off in the shower. One day I realized the tank heater had
blown up inside the tank and shorted out. Don't know how hot it got
before it blew, nor how cold it got after it was gone.
I finally broke down and bought a new one along with a thermometer to
keep track of the temperature.
Long and the short of it - I kept that aquariam for another year before
I finally shut it down due to too much salt getting out and forming
salt stains on the carpeting and everything else.
According to the experts I was doing everything wrong.
But the fish survived...... I never lost one.
Fancy that - Eh.
J
"Joe" <l...@bla.com> wrote in message
news:kl0qq0lditjr6mmdd...@4ax.com...
> >then you're not ready for salt.
>
Jon Pike
news:7v6rd.391701$nl.286182@pd7tw3no:
>
> "Jon Pike" <Anono...@spamlesshotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns95B177F2F6DA3L...@24.71.223.159...
>> "J" <flam...@NOSPAMshaw.ca> wrote in news:p03rd.378969$Pl.210895
>> @pd7tw1no:
>>
>> > It is a Myth that Salt is more advanced than fresh water, so what's
> wrong
>> > with starting out in salt?
>>
>> LOL
>> You say that because one person on usenet said that?
>
> ummm, No. Actually, I did some research.
Yeah? Where did you read that salt is as easy as fresh?
>> That's so stupid! REGARDLESS of who it is and what 'qualifications'
>> they claim to have!
>
> Well, why should I listen to you? you are the newsgroup idiot,
> everyone seems to have a problem with you. Therefore you have no
> credibility whatsoever.
So, popularity = credibility now?
That's odd, for most people, credibility is based on knowledge, not
popularity.
>> Who's the moron? Someone telling you to do lots and lots of reading
>> to
> make
>> sure you know your subject matter before going and wasting lots of
>> money and killing lots of fish, or someone telling you to dive right
>> in with no experience?
>>
>
> well considering the other poster did tell me to read up and research
> first..... guess you don't know how to read?
That person directly contradicted themselves in their own post. And
you're going to take their advice? goooood idea!
I hope you don't kill toooo many fish in your excursions... I already
feel sorry for them :(
Jon Pike
shiver@me_timbers.com:
> But the fish survived...... I never lost one.
Yep, that's the luck of genetics. Sometimes you'll get fish who can
literally turn blue from certain kinds of abuse, and others (of the same
species) won't be able to handle a few degrees of temperature change.
I don't think it's very good advice to say "well, even though I abused the
hell out of my fish, they didn't die, so you go ahead and do it too!"
shuffle
arguments. Fess up and admit that you simply *don't know*. Well, maybe
you do, but you like to argue for the sake of it, much like you do with
every thread Pham starts.
Calgary
<Anono...@spamlesshotmail.com> wrote:
>
>In fact, the greatest indicator that the person saying what you're broken-
>record'ing doesn't know what he's talking about, is that he's making proper
>fish keeping, of any kind, sound easy. It's NOT. It's a lot of hard work,
>and there's a lot of knowledge required. People who know what they're
>talking about take up to two months to get their tank going before even
>buying their fish. If you don't knowk why (and it's pretty clear you don't)
>then you're not ready for salt.
Bullcrap! It is easy! It's not a lot of hard work!
Where have I stated you go buy the tank and fish on the same day.
Also two months to get the tank going is excessive. Given a decent
sized tank, 48 gallons + with a large surface area I can complete the
nitrite cycle in less than thirty days. Although I am not surprised
it would take you two months.
Just so I am clear, your position is setting up and successfully
maintaining a salt tank is hard work and requires a lot of knowledge.
Let me tell you a story of an advanced aquarist who used to work for
me. A couple came into the store and asked him what the difference is
between charcoal and activated carbon. I tell you my salesman really
knew his stuff and spent ten minutes telling these people all of the
technical differences between the two products. After five minutes
the couple were desperate to get away and after ten they ran to the
til to get out of there. All they wanted to know is will activated
carbon keep their water cleaner. They had no interest in the various
chemical reactions and adsorption rates. This was and is a classic
example of how arrogant snobs attempt to over complicate even the
simplest process solely to enhance their self proclaimed position as
an "expert"
You do not have to understand all of the properties of activated
carbon to know it is a better product (for fresh water) and how to use
it.
Lighten up on new hobbyists. Don't try to scare the shit out of them.
Encourage them to buy the best equipment that is simple to use. When
I first got into the business ozonizers were a common tool for marine
aquariums. Would I recommend one of those for a new hobbyist? Of
course not. Hell I wouldn't even use one myself. What I would do is
set them up with a decent sized tank with a large surface area, a good
sub sand filter (which I manufactured myself), the right grain and
depth of gravel (crystal amber moneteray #8 was my favorite),a
hydrometer, nitrite test kit, ph test kit, some form of filter or
power head to create water circulation, no activated carbon (and if
you are an aquarist you will know why) and the other usual equipment.
Most important they would leave having realistic expectations for the
type of fish they could expect to keep for the amount of time they
choose to spend maintaining the tank and how deeply they intend to
study the hobby. Jon, this is their choice and any competent aquarist
should be able to help them meet their goals If that meant they would
have three or four damsels and a tomato clown, terrific! They are
tolerant of the usual fluctuations in water quality moderate
maintenance allows in a tank and they all eat flake food. Guess what,
they are also hardier than a fresh water angelfish. They are also
more active and colourful than most sedate fresh water "community"
fish. A pretty good deal for a new hobbyist.
So tell us all just exactly why this is difficult and hard work and
should only be left to some aquarium geek who lives for his fish. By
the way I used to be one of those.
So you have to monitor the specific gravity. I could go on about the
technical aspects of specific gravity and how fluctuations will affect
your fish, but what is more important is how to maintain it at the
optimum level. Answer: set it to the optimum level so the water is
just to the black rim around the top of the tank. If the water goes
below the rim, top it up to where it was when you set it. It's not
rocket science! And it's not hard work!
Worried about your water quality? Will your fish tell you if the
nitrite levels are creeping up? Sure they will. Pull out the test
kit to be sure. What about ammonia. Can you tell if the ammonia
levels are high without an ammonia testing kit? I can.
Now what are the regular chores required. Water changes, most
important. Guess what, they are also important in fresh water tanks.
Do not overfeed! Guess what, same as in fresh water. You will get
some salt cake around the tank and yes unless you have a brackish
water tank cleaning it up is something you will do far more often with
salt than you would with fresh. Jon, is this what you are referring
to as advanced or needing special knowledge?
Tell you what, you stick to trying to scare people away from what is a
wonderful hobby that can be simple and if the OP wants to chat about
what is really required to enjoy a few marine fish, let's chat. There
was a time I was an expert on the subject. That was almost 20 years
ago now and a whole bunch has changed since then, but for the better.
I can give you the basics for what you should do and expect if you
want to enter the hobby. There are some excellent fish stores in
Calgary who can fill you in on the advances in the past two decades.
My best advice is be patient and keep realistic expectations on the
type and quantity of fish you can expect to keep.
Oh, and don't be scared by people trying to over complicate things.
Calgary
<shiver@me_timbers.com> wrote:
>
>Long and the short of it - I kept that aquariam for another year before
>I finally shut it down due to too much salt getting out and forming
>salt stains on the carpeting and everything else.
>
>According to the experts I was doing everything wrong.
>
>But the fish survived...... I never lost one.
>
>Fancy that - Eh.
Well not even I would recommend that kind of abuse but it does
illustrate how hardy some marine fish can be.
Calgary
<Anono...@spamlesshotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> ummm, No. Actually, I did some research.
>
>Yeah? Where did you read that salt is as easy as fresh?
heh, heh, heh. My first foray into aquariums caused me to buy a 72
gallon tank, sliding glass top, polo light strip, an under gravel
filter, a silent giant air pump, an Ehiem canister filter, one of the
first submersible heaters on the market, a $4.99 book, all the
incidentals and four fish.
So I took all of this stuff home (left the fish at the store for a
day)and proceeded to set up my new toy. After a few hours of "hard
work" the tank was all set up and I settled down to read the book on
my four fish waiting for me at the store. What did I see in the first
paragraph? "If you are not ready to keep (insert name of fish here)you
might consider trying something simpler like marine fish." Now I am
paraphrasing of course but the type of fish I purchased were wild blue
heckel discus and they were beautiful.
So as a total novice with more money than brains I started out with
fresh water fish that the book told me were more difficult to look
after than salt. Long story short I am sure those fish suffered some
discomfort while I learned the basics of the hobby, but with the help
of some very good people at the fish store those Heckels were with me
for over five years before I gave them away. If fish could possibly
be a friend they were. There is no doubt they were aware of me and
their surroundings and almost seemed to display some form of
intelligence.
A word of wisdom for anyone considering large discus as their choice
of fish, do not put a pleco or algae eaters in with them. Jon why
don't you explain to a everyone why not.
Jon Pike
news:k25qq0ped89eksp72...@4ax.com:
> On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 18:47:34 GMT, Jon Pike
> <Anono...@spamlesshotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>In fact, the greatest indicator that the person saying what you're
>>broken- record'ing doesn't know what he's talking about, is that he's
>>making proper fish keeping, of any kind, sound easy. It's NOT. It's a
>>lot of hard work, and there's a lot of knowledge required. People who
>>know what they're talking about take up to two months to get their
>>tank going before even buying their fish. If you don't knowk why (and
>>it's pretty clear you don't) then you're not ready for salt.
>
> Bullcrap! It is easy! It's not a lot of hard work!
Sources? Oh, right, you have none.
> Where have I stated you go buy the tank and fish on the same day.
> Also two months to get the tank going is excessive. Given a decent
> sized tank, 48 gallons + with a large surface area I can complete the
> nitrite cycle in less than thirty days. Although I am not surprised
> it would take you two months.
If you want to do a fishless cycle, then yes, you can speed it up a
little. Do you think it's a good idea to advocate trying a fishless cycle
to that someone who admits he knows nothing about it?
Yes, it is faster, but if you don't know what you're doing, you can
overload your tank and end up with a cess-pool.
http://www.tomgriffin.com/aquamag/cycle2.html
10 days to 3 weeks for fishless, vs 4-6 weeks (oh look, two months!) for
'normal'
> Just so I am clear, your position is setting up and successfully
> maintaining a salt tank is hard work and requires a lot of knowledge.
> Let me tell you a story of an advanced aquarist who used to work for
> me. A couple came into the store and asked him what the difference is
> between charcoal and activated carbon. I tell you my salesman really
> knew his stuff and spent ten minutes telling these people all of the
> technical differences between the two products. After five minutes
> the couple were desperate to get away and after ten they ran to the
> til to get out of there. All they wanted to know is will activated
> carbon keep their water cleaner. They had no interest in the various
> chemical reactions and adsorption rates. This was and is a classic
> example of how arrogant snobs attempt to over complicate even the
> simplest process solely to enhance their self proclaimed position as
> an "expert"
What does that have to do with anything? So you claim you had a bad
employee. Big deal. What does it have to do with saltwater tanks?
Nothing.
> You do not have to understand all of the properties of activated
> carbon to know it is a better product (for fresh water) and how to use
> it.
That -might- work alright for freshwater, until you run into some
problems. Then you're fucked, and you end up adding chemicals trying to
fix things instead of knowing what the causes are and being able to
actually remedy the situation.
> Lighten up on new hobbyists. Don't try to scare the shit out of them.
There's a difference between "scaring the shit out of them" and giving
them accurate data. Obviously, it's a difference you're not clever enough
to discern.
> Encourage them to buy the best equipment that is simple to use.
Gee, what a surprize! Someone who claims to have owned pet stores tells
you to spend lots of money! Yeah, THERE'S an unbiased opinion!
> When
> I first got into the business ozonizers were a common tool for marine
> aquariums. Would I recommend one of those for a new hobbyist? Of
> course not. Hell I wouldn't even use one myself. What I would do is
> set them up with a decent sized tank with a large surface area,
cha-ching! $$$
> a good
> sub sand filter (which I manufactured myself), the right grain and
> depth of gravel (crystal amber moneteray #8 was my favorite),
Really? So you want them to have to totally disassemble their tank once a
year to clean the crud out? That's not very nice of you.
Undergravel filters (not "sub sand") don't actually get rid of any of the
detrius for you. It sits in the bottom of your tank and accumulates. I
don't know about you, but *I* wouldn't be happy if all of *MY* waste
material just accumulated under the carpet or something. Why do you think
your fish would be? Undergravel filters are about the most costly and
least effective (for the $) solution you can get. Can't imagine WHY
someone who claims to have owned pet-stores would reccomend something
like that!
> a
> hydrometer, nitrite test kit, ph test kit,
So. Wait. You want them only to test nitrites and ph?
What about nitrate?
What about ammonia?
What about (especially in calgary) water hardness?
Guess you don't know as much as you like to think you know, eh?
> some form of filter or
> power head to create water circulation,
Wait, so, you want them to have an expensive power head AND an expensive
undergravel filter? *rolls eyes*
> no activated carbon (and if
> you are an aquarist you will know why) and the other usual equipment.
> Most important they would leave having realistic expectations for the
> type of fish they could expect to keep for the amount of time they
> choose to spend maintaining the tank and how deeply they intend to
> study the hobby.
> Jon, this is their choice and any competent aquarist
> should be able to help them meet their goals.
Well for once, you actually got something right. But telling someone that
salt is as easy as fresh is -not- going to encourage them to do the
reading they need to do, and it's -not- going to help them get to
whatever goals they have. They'll think it's easy, because like an idiot
you told them so. If something's easy, it doesn't take much work. That
means you're telling them that they don't need to put much work in!
> If that meant they would
> have three or four damsels and a tomato clown, terrific! They are
> tolerant of the usual fluctuations in water quality moderate
> maintenance allows in a tank and they all eat flake food. Guess what,
> they are also hardier than a fresh water angelfish. They are also
> more active and colourful than most sedate fresh water "community"
> fish. A pretty good deal for a new hobbyist.
Great! and you can stress the fuck out of your clown fish by not
providing it a proper habitat! What a wonderful suggestion!
> So tell us all just exactly why this is difficult and hard work and
> should only be left to some aquarium geek who lives for his fish. By
> the way I used to be one of those.
Apparently, you kept the fish for -your- sake, and not for the sake of
the fishes, with the advice you're giving.
> So you have to monitor the specific gravity. I could go on about the
> technical aspects of specific gravity and how fluctuations will affect
> your fish, but what is more important is how to maintain it at the
> optimum level. Answer: set it to the optimum level so the water is
> just to the black rim around the top of the tank. If the water goes
> below the rim, top it up to where it was when you set it. It's not
> rocket science! And it's not hard work!
>
> Worried about your water quality? Will your fish tell you if the
> nitrite levels are creeping up? Sure they will. Pull out the test
> kit to be sure. What about ammonia. Can you tell if the ammonia
> levels are high without an ammonia testing kit? I can.
So... you're saying you should wait until your fish exhibit signs of
stress before doing something? You're saying someone should skimp out on
buying the ammonia tests because you claim to be able to "see" it or some
shit?
What wonderful advice you're giving.
Is that like saying you shouldn't feed your dog until you can start to
see its ribs?
> Now what are the regular chores required. Water changes, most
> important. Guess what, they are also important in fresh water tanks.
....
actually, if you have your marine tank set up properly, and you're not
overloading it with fish, you shouldn't need to do changes. At most you
should have to add water to keep the level up, but if you've got a half
decent lid, that shouldn't happen very often either.
> Do not overfeed! Guess what, same as in fresh water. You will get
> some salt cake around the tank and yes unless you have a brackish
> water tank cleaning it up is something you will do far more often with
> salt than you would with fresh.
So... according to you a brackish tank doesn't get that ugly white salt
accumulation around everything?
Again, you're showing just how much you DON'T know about the subject.
> Jon, is this what you are referring
> to as advanced or needing special knowledge?
No, it's not. However, it does seem to be the limit of YOUR aquaria
knowledge.
> Tell you what, you stick to trying to scare people away from what is a
> wonderful hobby that can be simple and if the OP wants to chat about
> what is really required to enjoy a few marine fish, let's chat. There
> was a time I was an expert on the subject. That was almost 20 years
> ago now and a whole bunch has changed since then, but for the better.
> I can give you the basics for what you should do and expect if you
> want to enter the hobby. There are some excellent fish stores in
> Calgary who can fill you in on the advances in the past two decades.
Except a great deal of what you said so far has been catagorically wrong.
Let's review, and then we'll review the stuff that's just bad advice for
a beginner:
WRONG:
-a good sub sand filter
--no such thing
-Will your fish tell you if the nitrite levels are creeping up? Sure
they will.
--really? do they write you a letter?
-Can you tell if the ammonia levels are high without an ammonia testing
kit? I can.
--bullshit!
-Water changes, most important.
--Only if you've got no clue about what you're doing and you've seriously
overloaded your tank.
BAD ADVICE:
-Encourage them to buy the best equipment that is simple to use.
-(You don't advice purchase of all test kits, especially ammonia, the
most lethal!)
-You think your FISH should be the only indication that something's
wrong, whereas a responsible fish-herder will know well in advance!
Your "solution" to aquaria seems to be to throw money at it.
That shows that not only do you not understand the processes involved,
but you don't understand that most people can't afford all the most
expensive equipment. What's really stupid is you don't need to! Why not?
A 10g sump will service more than 70 gallons of fish space with little to
no effort. And guess how much it costs? Well, a 10g tank costs ~10$...
some tubing is maybe 20$, and a little bit of media is another 20$. Then
all you need is a pump, and those are cheap too. Not only then have you
saved hundreds of dollars, but you've got a -much- cleaner system than
you could ever DREAM of having with a shitty undergravel filter.
Sure, if you want to not understand what's going on and why your fish
aren't happy, if you want to abuse them by waiting for them to suffer
before doing anything, if you want a tank that needs complete scrubbing
and clearing out once a year, go ahead, listen to what this goofball has
to say.
If, on the other hand, you want to enjoy your hobby, if you want to know
that your fish are in the best possible conditions, if you want to have
fish that -thrive- instead of survive, then yes, it does take a lot of
work.
But hey, What do I know? I've only got ~500 gallons combined tank
space... I've only successfully raised several thousand fry... I only
have three tanks that are set up in such a way that they actually DON'T
need water changes... Yep, I sure don't know what I'm doing! Not one
little bit!
Jon Pike
news:g98qq053plm59lsep...@4ax.com:
> On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 23:12:20 GMT, Shiver Me Timbers
> <shiver@me_timbers.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>Long and the short of it - I kept that aquariam for another year before
>>I finally shut it down due to too much salt getting out and forming
>>salt stains on the carpeting and everything else.
>>
>>According to the experts I was doing everything wrong.
>>
>>But the fish survived...... I never lost one.
>>
>>Fancy that - Eh.
>
> Well not even I would recommend that kind of abuse but it does
> illustrate how hardy some marine fish can be.
Which is amusing, because you DO recommend waiting for your fishes to
"tell" you when your nitrites are too high!
How do they do that, exactly, other than, oh I don't know.. DYING?!
All that SMT's story illustrates is that some fish are genetically more
robust than others. I once heard of someone dropping a whole bottle of that
blue ick-cure stuff into his tank, such that one of his fishes literally
turned blue for a few weeks. It survived, others of the same species
didn't. Does that mean it's okay to abuse your fish this way? NO! That
means only that some fish, like I said, are genetically more robust than
others.
Your goal in aquaria keeping should -not- be to find out which are which.
Jon Pike
news:h1bqq01hr2oith4am...@4ax.com:
> On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 00:58:38 GMT, Jon Pike
> <Anono...@spamlesshotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>> ummm, No. Actually, I did some research.
>>
>>Yeah? Where did you read that salt is as easy as fresh?
>
> heh, heh, heh. My first foray into aquariums caused me to buy a 72
> gallon tank, sliding glass top, polo light strip, an under gravel
> filter, a silent giant air pump, an Ehiem canister filter, one of the
> first submersible heaters on the market, a $4.99 book, all the
> incidentals and four fish.
>
> So I took all of this stuff home (left the fish at the store for a
> day)and proceeded to set up my new toy.
Is a dog a 'toy' ? If your answer is "yes" then you've got some bigger
problems to work out than what advice to give to beginning hobbiests. If
your answer is "no" then why should your fish be a 'toy' ?
All you're doing is further demonstrating a lack of respect for the
living creatures that you force to depend on you with their lives.
> After a few hours of "hard
> work" the tank was all set up and I settled down to read the book on
> my four fish waiting for me at the store. What did I see in the first
> paragraph? "If you are not ready to keep (insert name of fish here)you
> might consider trying something simpler like marine fish." Now I am
> paraphrasing of course but the type of fish I purchased were wild blue
> heckel discus and they were beautiful.
>
> So as a total novice with more money than brains I started out with
> fresh water fish that the book told me were more difficult to look
> after than salt. Long story short I am sure those fish suffered some
> discomfort while I learned the basics of the hobby, but with the help
> of some very good people at the fish store those Heckels were with me
> for over five years before I gave them away. If fish could possibly
> be a friend they were.
Is that how you treat your friends? That's very, very sad.
> There is no doubt they were aware of me and
> their surroundings and almost seemed to display some form of
> intelligence.
>
> A word of wisdom for anyone considering large discus as their choice
> of fish, do not put a pleco or algae eaters in with them. Jon why
> don't you explain to a everyone why not.
So.... what you're saying is you advocate abusing your fish until you
somehow stumble across the right way of keeping them?
Gooooood advice...
And no, I will not tell you why you might think it's a bad idea to keep a
pl*co (and do YOU know why a * goes there) in with other fish.
Calgary
<Anono...@spamlesshotmail.com> wrote:
>Calgary <dlbcalde...@telus.net> wrote in
>news:g98qq053plm59lsep...@4ax.com:
>
>> On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 23:12:20 GMT, Shiver Me Timbers
>> <shiver@me_timbers.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Long and the short of it - I kept that aquariam for another year before
>>>I finally shut it down due to too much salt getting out and forming
>>>salt stains on the carpeting and everything else.
>>>
>>>According to the experts I was doing everything wrong.
>>>
>>>But the fish survived...... I never lost one.
>>>
>>>Fancy that - Eh.
>>
>> Well not even I would recommend that kind of abuse but it does
>> illustrate how hardy some marine fish can be.
>
>Which is amusing, because you DO recommend waiting for your fishes to
>"tell" you when your nitrites are too high!
>How do they do that, exactly, other than, oh I don't know.. DYING?!
Obviously you know that water high in nitrites can hold less oxygen.
Fish will tend to gravitate higher in the tank and their gills will
beat rapidly when they are starved for oxygen. Of course similar
symptoms will be shown when the temperature rises too high also. But
you knew all of that..
Of course you could wait for them to die before you pick up on some of
the subtle symptoms. It wouldn't be my choice though.
>All that SMT's story illustrates is that some fish are genetically more
>robust than others. I once heard of someone dropping a whole bottle of that
>blue ick-cure stuff into his tank, such that one of his fishes literally
>turned blue for a few weeks. It survived, others of the same species
>didn't. Does that mean it's okay to abuse your fish this way? NO! That
>means only that some fish, like I said, are genetically more robust than
>others.
Well that "blue ick cure" stuff you are referring to is likely
methylene blue. It's not real toxic and you would be surprised what
happens if you drink a little bit of the stuff.
It turns your urine blue. But you knew all of that too..
This is too easy.
Calgary
<Anono...@spamlesshotmail.com> wrote:
>> So I took all of this stuff home (left the fish at the store for a
>> day)and proceeded to set up my new toy.
>
>Is a dog a 'toy' ? If your answer is "yes" then you've got some bigger
>problems to work out than what advice to give to beginning hobbiests. If
>your answer is "no" then why should your fish be a 'toy' ?
>All you're doing is further demonstrating a lack of respect for the
>living creatures that you force to depend on you with their lives.
Jon, Jon, Jon. Your lack of reading comprehension leads me to believe
you are lacking education. The toy in my statement refers to the
aquarium not the fish..
Calgary
<Anono...@spamlesshotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Is that how you treat your friends? That's very, very sad.
Ooh, I feel a greenpeace moment coming on.
Calgary
Well just to enlighten others that may be amused by this thread,
Discus like some other fish secrete a thick mucus coating on their
body that some algae eating fish find appetizing. Unfortunately I
discovered this by accident when the new addition to my tank was
globbing on the side of my prized Discus. Needless to say they were
promptly fetched out of that tank and given a communal burial. Now
don't tell Jon, he might report me to PETA.
I wonder why Jon wouldn't let you all know of this problem. Seems
strange someone with his obvious knowledge of all things aquaria would
have known this and want to share his wisdom to help others avoid a
similar pitfall. Odd?
Jon Pike
news:vjdqq0pbaca3u7fvm...@4ax.com:
> On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 02:55:15 GMT, Jon Pike
> <Anono...@spamlesshotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Calgary <dlbcalde...@telus.net> wrote in
>>news:g98qq053plm59lsep...@4ax.com:
>>
>>> On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 23:12:20 GMT, Shiver Me Timbers
>>> <shiver@me_timbers.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>Long and the short of it - I kept that aquariam for another year
>>>>before I finally shut it down due to too much salt getting out and
>>>>forming salt stains on the carpeting and everything else.
>>>>
>>>>According to the experts I was doing everything wrong.
>>>>
>>>>But the fish survived...... I never lost one.
>>>>
>>>>Fancy that - Eh.
>>>
>>> Well not even I would recommend that kind of abuse but it does
>>> illustrate how hardy some marine fish can be.
>>
>>Which is amusing, because you DO recommend waiting for your fishes to
>>"tell" you when your nitrites are too high!
>>How do they do that, exactly, other than, oh I don't know.. DYING?!
>
> Obviously you know that water high in nitrites can hold less oxygen.
> Fish will tend to gravitate higher in the tank and their gills will
> beat rapidly when they are starved for oxygen. Of course similar
> symptoms will be shown when the temperature rises too high also. But
> you knew all of that..
If you were so stupid as to set up your tank in a way that -allowed- the
nitrites to get up at -all-, then you don't know half as much as you
think. In a properly cycled tank, you won't have any measurable ammonia
OR nitrites, the bacteria will take care of that for you.
Sounds to me like you've done a whole hell of a lot of buying your tank
and putting your fish in on the same day. The mark of someone who really
has no clue about what they're doing.
> Of course you could wait for them to die before you pick up on some of
> the subtle symptoms. It wouldn't be my choice though.
Your choice is to abuse your fish. MY choice is to not.
>>All that SMT's story illustrates is that some fish are genetically
>>more robust than others. I once heard of someone dropping a whole
>>bottle of that blue ick-cure stuff into his tank, such that one of his
>>fishes literally turned blue for a few weeks. It survived, others of
>>the same species didn't. Does that mean it's okay to abuse your fish
>>this way? NO! That means only that some fish, like I said, are
>>genetically more robust than others.
>
> Well that "blue ick cure" stuff you are referring to is likely
> methylene blue. It's not real toxic and you would be surprised what
> happens if you drink a little bit of the stuff.
...right.
Sure. whatever you say. not toxic. It's downright poison to any pl*co,
and excessive dosage is very likely to kill any of your other fishes too.
but with your track record of fish abuse, I can see how you'd call that
"not real toxic"
Jon Pike
news:p4eqq0psdmap108hf...@4ax.com:
> On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 03:01:40 GMT, Jon Pike
> <Anono...@spamlesshotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> So I took all of this stuff home (left the fish at the store for a
>>> day)and proceeded to set up my new toy.
>>
>>Is a dog a 'toy' ? If your answer is "yes" then you've got some bigger
>>problems to work out than what advice to give to beginning hobbiests. If
>>your answer is "no" then why should your fish be a 'toy' ?
>>All you're doing is further demonstrating a lack of respect for the
>>living creatures that you force to depend on you with their lives.
>
>
> Jon, Jon, Jon. Your lack of reading comprehension leads me to believe
> you are lacking education. The toy in my statement refers to the
> aquarium not the fish..
Typical usenet. When you run out of intelligent things to say, and when
you're too stupid to admit that you're just downright wrong, you resort to
insults.
Like I said, you can take this .... person's.. advice and abuse your fish,
likely killing many of them, or you can take my advice and start out where
everyone else starts out, at the beginning!
Jon Pike
news:fbeqq0dpk1kqaq2ac...@4ax.com:
> On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 03:01:40 GMT, Jon Pike
> <Anono...@spamlesshotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>And no, I will not tell you why you might think it's a bad idea to
>>keep a pl*co (and do YOU know why a * goes there) in with other fish.
>
> Well just to enlighten others that may be amused by this thread,
> Discus like some other fish secrete a thick mucus coating on their
> body that some algae eating fish find appetizing. Unfortunately I
> discovered this by accident when the new addition to my tank was
> globbing on the side of my prized Discus. Needless to say they were
> promptly fetched out of that tank and given a communal burial. Now
> don't tell Jon, he might report me to PETA.
This is what you advice? Stupidly throwing all manners of fish together and
waiting to see what happens?
Any fish hobbiest worth their salt (literally) would have read up before
hand about what kind of fishes are compatible.
> I wonder why Jon wouldn't let you all know of this problem. Seems
> strange someone with his obvious knowledge of all things aquaria would
> have known this and want to share his wisdom to help others avoid a
> similar pitfall. Odd?
No, not odd. It's readily available information. Has been for as long as
people have been keeping those fish.
MY advice is to go and READ before killing your fish.
Yours seems to be kill your fish and then sit on your ass scratching your
head about what went wrong.
Go ahead. Pull some more pointless trivia out of your ass and try to pass
it off as intelligence. It's still no replacement for each person doing
their own research into the subject.
And look, you couldn't tell me why you put a * in pl*co!
Lance A Boyle
> Jon, Jon, Jon. Your lack of reading comprehension leads me to believe
> you are lacking education.
Unfortunately Jon is not uneducated, he's just stupid.
Lance
Crush
He talks before he reads. It's amazing but he is like the little kid
that does not know his manners. He talks right over top of people in
real life as well as on line, from his posts you can tell that he would
be one of those little kids you see in the playground that try's to
gather the most attention to itself (sorry himself) by being the loudest
and the longest winded. It is truly amazing that what I read seems to
reflect a picture of Jon in that scenario.
As matter of course and to stay on topic in a forsale group.
This is a start, for most people and everyone looking into aquarium
keeping, and to find the most wide range of advise for any aquarust
visit the forums on most websites of this size. Talk there will keep
you occupied for hours.
http://www.aquariumadvice.com
Another excellent discussion board.
http://www.fishforums.com/phpBB/
Local Alberta aquatic message board.
http://s6.invisionfree.com/AlbertaAquatica/index.php?
On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 02:52:37 GMT, Jon Pike
<Anono...@spamlesshotmail.com> wrote:
{Calgary <dlbcalde...@telus.net> wrote in
{news:k25qq0ped89eksp72...@4ax.com:
{
{> On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 18:47:34 GMT, Jon Pike
{> <Anono...@spamlesshotmail.com> wrote:
{>
{>>
{>>In fact, the greatest indicator that the person saying what you're
{>>broken- record'ing doesn't know what he's talking about, is that he's
{>>making proper fish keeping, of any kind, sound easy. It's NOT. It's a
{>>lot of hard work, and there's a lot of knowledge required. People who
{>>know what they're talking about take up to two months to get their
{>>tank going before even buying their fish. If you don't knowk why (and
{>>it's pretty clear you don't) then you're not ready for salt.
{>
{> Bullcrap! It is easy! It's not a lot of hard work!
{
{Sources? Oh, right, you have none.
{
Rest of the bullcrap being slung by a fish cut for courtesy.
Calgary
<Anono...@spamlesshotmail.com> wrote:
>Calgary <dlbcalde...@telus.net> wrote in
>news:k25qq0ped89eksp72...@4ax.com:
>
>> On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 18:47:34 GMT, Jon Pike
>> <Anono...@spamlesshotmail.com> wrote:
>>
<snip>
So much disinformation and so little time
>>
>> Bullcrap! It is easy! It's not a lot of hard work!
>
>Sources? Oh, right, you have none.
>
Oh given the time I could cite multiple sources but for now common
sense and thousands of successful hobbyists will have to suffice.
>> Where have I stated you go buy the tank and fish on the same day.
>> Also two months to get the tank going is excessive. Given a decent
>> sized tank, 48 gallons + with a large surface area I can complete the
>> nitrite cycle in less than thirty days. Although I am not surprised
>> it would take you two months.
>
>If you want to do a fishless cycle, then yes, you can speed it up a
>little. Do you think it's a good idea to advocate trying a fishless cycle
>to that someone who admits he knows nothing about it?
>Yes, it is faster, but if you don't know what you're doing, you can
>overload your tank and end up with a cess-pool.
>http://www.tomgriffin.com/aquamag/cycle2.html
>10 days to 3 weeks for fishless, vs 4-6 weeks (oh look, two months!) for
>'normal'
Good read and no where in there did it state you are likely to end up
with a cess pool. If memory serves back in the mid 70's we used
ammonium chloride mixed in a 10% solution of water and added to the
tank at one drop per gallon. Aside from a mild smelly socks odour 5
or 6 days into the process (which disappeared a few days later) we
experienced no negative effects with this process.
>
>> Just so I am clear, your position is setting up and successfully
>> maintaining a salt tank is hard work and requires a lot of knowledge.
>> Let me tell you a story of an advanced aquarist who used to work for
>> me. A couple came into the store and asked him what the difference is
>> between charcoal and activated carbon. I tell you my salesman really
>> knew his stuff and spent ten minutes telling these people all of the
>> technical differences between the two products. After five minutes
>> the couple were desperate to get away and after ten they ran to the
>> til to get out of there. All they wanted to know is will activated
>> carbon keep their water cleaner. They had no interest in the various
>> chemical reactions and adsorption rates. This was and is a classic
>> example of how arrogant snobs attempt to over complicate even the
>> simplest process solely to enhance their self proclaimed position as
>> an "expert"
>
>What does that have to do with anything? So you claim you had a bad
>employee. Big deal. What does it have to do with saltwater tanks?
>Nothing.
What I am pointing out is that this hobby does not need to be over
complicated.
>> You do not have to understand all of the properties of activated
>> carbon to know it is a better product (for fresh water) and how to use
>> it.
>
>That -might- work alright for freshwater, until you run into some
>problems. Then you're fucked, and you end up adding chemicals trying to
>fix things instead of knowing what the causes are and being able to
>actually remedy the situation.
Hmmm mindless off topic rambling.
>
>> Lighten up on new hobbyists. Don't try to scare the shit out of them.
>
>There's a difference between "scaring the shit out of them" and giving
>them accurate data. Obviously, it's a difference you're not clever enough
>to discern.
Sorry Jon I have seen nothing supportive or productive from you for
anyone interested in the hobby. Just scare tactics.
>
>> Encourage them to buy the best equipment that is simple to use.
>
>Gee, what a surprize! Someone who claims to have owned pet stores tells
>you to spend lots of money! Yeah, THERE'S an unbiased opinion!
>
>> When
>> I first got into the business ozonizers were a common tool for marine
>> aquariums. Would I recommend one of those for a new hobbyist? Of
>> course not. Hell I wouldn't even use one myself. What I would do is
>> set them up with a decent sized tank with a large surface area,
>
>cha-ching! $$$
>
>> a good
>> sub sand filter (which I manufactured myself), the right grain and
>> depth of gravel (crystal amber moneteray #8 was my favorite),
>
>Really? So you want them to have to totally disassemble their tank once a
>year to clean the crud out? That's not very nice of you.
>Undergravel filters (not "sub sand") don't actually get rid of any of the
>detrius for you. It sits in the bottom of your tank and accumulates. I
>don't know about you, but *I* wouldn't be happy if all of *MY* waste
>material just accumulated under the carpet or something. Why do you think
>your fish would be? Undergravel filters are about the most costly and
>least effective (for the $) solution you can get. Can't imagine WHY
>someone who claims to have owned pet-stores would reccomend something
>like that!
Surely you understand the basics of biological filtration. The sub
sand (semantics) filter is not a mechanical filter designed to trap
and hold deleterious material from the tank. It is a medium with
which the water flows through developing the required bacteria to
break down the ammonia secreted by the fish. The sand filter is still
used today as it has been for decades in a variety of forms filtering
water in swimming pools, hot tubs and believe it or not Jon central
water filtration systems in fish stores. One never has to tear a tank
down to clean under the filter. That is plain bull crap. I have had
them set up for years in some cases over a decade and when I finally
took them down, aside from a little sand under the plate it was
crystal clean.
>
>> a
>> hydrometer, nitrite test kit, ph test kit,
>
>So. Wait. You want them only to test nitrites and ph?
>What about nitrate?
>What about ammonia?
Chemistry 101. What happens to ammonia after a few days in a fish
tank. It is converted to nitrite. Easy to test for. Although I
would not discourage testing for all the chemicals and conditions you
suggest. I merely state for some, who want a simple hobby it is not
necessary.
Practical fish keeping 101. What happens to fish as they begin to
feel the effects of elevated ammonia? They get jumpy. Give a light
tap on the glass with your fingernail and see how the fish react. You
can tell, or at least I can.
>What about (especially in calgary) water hardness?
>
>Guess you don't know as much as you like to think you know, eh?
I said I was once an expert in this hobby. It has been almost 20
years since I have stepped into a real fish store. There is lots I
don't know of the latest advances. That doesn't mean the hobby has
changed. If what you want is to enjoy a few fish and choose not to be
married to a rigorous maintenance regime, it can be done simply and
successfully.
>> some form of filter or
>> power head to create water circulation,
>
>Wait, so, you want them to have an expensive power head AND an expensive
>undergravel filter? *rolls eyes*
>
>> no activated carbon (and if
>> you are an aquarist you will know why) and the other usual equipment.
>> Most important they would leave having realistic expectations for the
>> type of fish they could expect to keep for the amount of time they
>> choose to spend maintaining the tank and how deeply they intend to
>> study the hobby.
>
>
>> Jon, this is their choice and any competent aquarist
>> should be able to help them meet their goals.
>
>Well for once, you actually got something right. But telling someone that
>salt is as easy as fresh is -not- going to encourage them to do the
>reading they need to do, and it's -not- going to help them get to
>whatever goals they have. They'll think it's easy, because like an idiot
>you told them so. If something's easy, it doesn't take much work. That
>means you're telling them that they don't need to put much work in!
Well because if they keep their expectations realistic salt is as easy
as fresh and doesn't have to be a labour burden. You can disagree as
often as you want, it won't make it true. I have dealt with thousands
of people who have proven it works.
>
>> If that meant they would
>> have three or four damsels and a tomato clown, terrific! They are
>> tolerant of the usual fluctuations in water quality moderate
>> maintenance allows in a tank and they all eat flake food. Guess what,
>> they are also hardier than a fresh water angelfish. They are also
>> more active and colourful than most sedate fresh water "community"
>> fish. A pretty good deal for a new hobbyist.
>
>Great! and you can stress the fuck out of your clown fish by not
>providing it a proper habitat! What a wonderful suggestion!
Nothing in what I have said will deprive the fish of a proper habitat.
Now you are being just plain ignorant. Water changes today are just
as important as they were 25 years ago. If I type slowly enough maybe
you can understand one of the many reasons we should change water
regularly. As water evaporates, the minerals contained in the water
stay in the tank. Over time the mineral content will build up to the
point it will begin to stress your fish and make your filtration
system inefficient. The recommendations use to be 25% +/- every month
or so. Likely still good advice.
>
>> Do not overfeed! Guess what, same as in fresh water. You will get
>> some salt cake around the tank and yes unless you have a brackish
>> water tank cleaning it up is something you will do far more often with
>> salt than you would with fresh.
>
>So... according to you a brackish tank doesn't get that ugly white salt
>accumulation around everything?
>Again, you're showing just how much you DON'T know about the subject.
Re-read what I wrote. I said UNLESS you have a brackish tank cleaning
up the salt cake is something you will do far more often with salt
than you would with fresh.
The implication is a brackish tank will generate almost as much salt
cake as a marine tank.
<snip too much misinformation to bother with>
>
>
>But hey, What do I know? I've only got ~500 gallons combined tank
>space... I've only successfully raised several thousand fry... I only
>have three tanks that are set up in such a way that they actually DON'T
>need water changes... Yep, I sure don't know what I'm doing! Not one
>little bit!
500 gallons! Wow! I couldn' count the gallons of combined tank space I
have owned, set up, looked after, built. I used to breed angelfish
and produced a thousand quarter sized fry a month. I did that for
years and it made a tidy side income for me although it totally
destroyed one of the rooms in my house.. I have trans-shipped fresh
and salt water fish from all over the world for resale throughout
western Canada and in spite of all that I would not characterize
myself as an expert today.
As for you I have yet to see anything that would inspire confidence in
me to follow any of the advice you have offered. Believe it or not
Jon some people can successfully raise and keep fish of all kinds by
not doing things exactly the way you do. Even those who have pointed
out they have been successful all you do is claim they are still wrong
and have been abusing their fish. Aside from the fact fish abuse will
not garner serious attention from the SPCA your claims are
unsubstantiated and put forward only in a futile attempt to salvage a
losing position in this debate.
I stand by my original contention, one does not have to shy away from
this hobby fresh or salt, simply due to a lack of experience. You
disagree and that is fine. Although I will disregard your advice, I
will defend your democratic right to be wrong.
Calgary
<Anono...@spamlesshotmail.com> wrote:
>
>This is what you advice? Stupidly throwing all manners of fish together and
>waiting to see what happens?
>Any fish hobbiest worth their salt (literally) would have read up before
>hand about what kind of fishes are compatible.
yet when I asked you to answer the question you couldn't. There is a
message there..lol
Lance A Boyle
> yet when I asked you to answer the question you couldn't. There is a
> message there..lol
If Jonny can't answer your question, he'll just find fault with your
spelling or grammar. I guess that's how people with genius IQ's spar.
Lance
Calgary
wrote:
He seems to have a problem with comprehension and when backed into a
corner tends to revert back to the same invalid and non-relevant
points. I have seen elitists in this hobby before. I found in the
stores I was able to assist 90 to 95% of my customers. The other 5 to
10% were like Jon. They knew everything and there was only one way to
keep fish - their way. For the customers I could help we had some fun
and learned stuff together. For the customers like Jon I would just
nod my head and agree with everything they said. They would buy
whatever they came in for and maybe a little bit more and leave
thinking the guy who owns the fish store agrees with me so I must be
smart. I should have remembered that before engaging in the mild
flame war..lol
Jon Pike
news:eujqq010hj3ikmin7...@4ax.com:
> On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 03:49:21 GMT, Jon Pike
> <Anono...@spamlesshotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>This is what you advice? Stupidly throwing all manners of fish
>>together and waiting to see what happens?
>>Any fish hobbiest worth their salt (literally) would have read up
>>before hand about what kind of fishes are compatible.
>
> yet when I asked you to answer the question you couldn't. There is a
> message there..lol
Boy, you're thick.
Chosing intentionally not to does not mean I can't.
By refusing to engage in pointless trivia with someone who obviously
doesn't -understand- the subject, I'm encouraging whoever's actually
interested to find out FOR THEMSELVES.
You know. How I've been saying since the beginning of the thread that
there's lots of reading to do?
Still haven't figured out where the * goes eh?
There's a bit of pointless trivia for you, but you -can't- answer it.
Jon Pike
news:oekqq090g0fjhjn80...@4ax.com:
-snip-
look at that... typical usenet behaviour.
I've said from the beginning that anyone who wants to get into this needs
to do some reading first. I've proven you wrong about many points, so what
do you do? You resort to petty name-calling.
And who has been the ONLY one to not provide any links or resources thus
far? Give you a hint... it's you!
Calgary
<Anono...@spamlesshotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Your ignorance is really showing here.
>A proper habitat for a clown is an anenome. Ever wondered why they "swim
>funny" ? It's because they're -supposed- to be swimming between anenome
>tentacles.
>You don't advocate giving fish their proper habitats. You abuse your animals.
Oh my, you couldn't be more wrong. It was once believed Clowns had a
symbiotic relationship with anemones. It was thought the anemone
supplied protection for the clown and the clown brought food for the
anemone. Of course the only food the clown left for the anemone was
food it dropped or the current swept away. Bottom line aside from
protection the anemone provided no benefit for the clown and clowns
are not dependant upon the anemone.
Oh and for the record, fish are not animals..
Calgary
<Anono...@spamlesshotmail.com> wrote:
>These are all things you seem to be advocating though, not me.
>I think people should have a good lid, that more or less prevents
>evaporation. I think they should do water hardness tests. I think they should
>have lots of LIVING plants (not the plastic ones that I'm sure you're so
>familiar with) in their tank. I think people should learn about how things
>work so they don't get caught by surprize like you've said over and over you
>did.
You cannot prevent evaporation unless you hermetically seal your tank.
Lance A Boyle
> look at that... typical usenet behaviour.
Hey Pike, when are you going to get back to me with your explanation
about that antenna resonance thing, that you claimed you're some sort of
expert on?
Small people, talking big. Now THAT'S typical Usenet behaviour. LOL
Lance
Calgary
>And proof of any of this? No?
>Didn't think so.
It was many years ago. Some of our stores are still around. New
ownership now. I suppose if Rolph Hagen was still alive I could
introduce you to him. I think his brother Dieter is still involved in
the business. Maybe I could call him. I am still welcomed at their
annual trade shows. There will be another one next fall. Speak
nicely to me and I might take you to one and introduce you to the real
experts. Nah you would just embarrass me by calling all of them idiots
and claim they don't know anything about fish.
I think I still have a tape of one of our old radio commercials. Give
me your phone number and I will dig it out and play it for you. It is
a catchy tune and won us an award.
Calgary
<Anono...@spamlesshotmail.com> wrote:
>Hmmm. Well, I've shown on probably a dozen occasions now how your information
>is downright wrong. References included.
In your mind maybe but I am still unconvinced. Maybe you could claim
more fish abuse or call me a few more names. Hardly an effective
debating technique but it seems to fit for you.
Jon Pike
news:u1mqq0pll1t36g44i...@4ax.com:
> On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 05:30:32 GMT, Jon Pike
> <Anono...@spamlesshotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>Your ignorance is really showing here.
>>A proper habitat for a clown is an anenome. Ever wondered why they
>>"swim funny" ? It's because they're -supposed- to be swimming between
>>anenome tentacles.
>>You don't advocate giving fish their proper habitats. You abuse your
>>animals.
>
> Oh my, you couldn't be more wrong. It was once believed Clowns had a
> symbiotic relationship with anemones. It was thought the anemone
> supplied protection for the clown and the clown brought food for the
> anemone. Of course the only food the clown left for the anemone was
> food it dropped or the current swept away. Bottom line aside from
> protection the anemone provided no benefit for the clown and clowns
> are not dependant upon the anemone.
>
> Oh and for the record, fish are not animals..
Let's see, every resource online says a clown's natural home is an
anenome... they're genetically suited to live in anenomes, they swim
"funny" even when they don't have an anenome because they're -designed- to
swim in anenomes... but naw, they don't need them.
you're a nutjob.
Not animals?!
maybe you think not "mammals."
But again, to the original poster, if you want to take advice from someone
who doesn't even know the difference between a mammal and an animal.... you
get what you pay for!
Jon Pike
news:kamqq0hal6kqaqe4u...@4ax.com:
> On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 05:30:32 GMT, Jon Pike
> <Anono...@spamlesshotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>These are all things you seem to be advocating though, not me.
>>I think people should have a good lid, that more or less prevents
>>evaporation. I think they should do water hardness tests. I think they
>>should have lots of LIVING plants (not the plastic ones that I'm sure
>>you're so familiar with) in their tank. I think people should learn
>>about how things work so they don't get caught by surprize like you've
>>said over and over you did.
>
> You cannot prevent evaporation unless you hermetically seal your tank.
I didn't say you could completely stop it, I said you can lessen it
greatly. You know... how it says "more or less" ?
As for sealing it hermetically... unless you want to never look at your
fish, that's a bad idea. To seal something hermetically means to make it
"impervious to external influence" ... and that includes light.
Did you fail gradeschool or something? You don't know what an animal is...
you don't know the difference between "hermetically" and "watertight" ...
Jon Pike
news:8qmqq0ld7gesj4i5m...@4ax.com:
> On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 05:30:32 GMT, Jon Pike
> <Anono...@spamlesshotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Hmmm. Well, I've shown on probably a dozen occasions now how your
>>information is downright wrong. References included.
>
> In your mind maybe but I am still unconvinced. Maybe you could claim
> more fish abuse or call me a few more names. Hardly an effective
> debating technique but it seems to fit for you.
...
fabricating now?
I haven't called you any names. That's what you've done.
I've posted direct links that show how absolutely wrong you are about
undergravel filters. You've posted no links of any kind.
You don't even know the difference between an undergravel filter and a sand
filter.
Calgary
<Anono...@spamlesshotmail.com> wrote:
>-snip-
>look at that... typical usenet behaviour.
>I've said from the beginning that anyone who wants to get into this needs
>to do some reading first.
Revisionist history will not help you here. You are on record as
saying it is hard work and only suited for the technically advanced.
My response simply put is bull crap.
>I've proven you wrong about many points, so what
>do you do? You resort to petty name-calling.
>And who has been the ONLY one to not provide any links or resources thus
>far? Give you a hint... it's you!
There is no need to cite sources for common sense and personal
experience especially dealing with the topic at hand. My original
assertion stands virtually unchallenged.
Calgary
<Anono...@spamlesshotmail.com> wrote:
>Boy, you're thick.
>Chosing intentionally not to does not mean I can't.
>By refusing to engage in pointless trivia with someone who obviously
>doesn't -understand- the subject, I'm encouraging whoever's actually
>interested to find out FOR THEMSELVES.
>You know. How I've been saying since the beginning of the thread that
>there's lots of reading to do?
I thought your lack of knowing what that "blue stuff" was, was
particularly enlightening. Especially that "blue stuff" is not
typically used to treat ick. Usually you use the "green stuff" to
treat ick unless you are treating fish that are susceptible to the
"green stuff"
The "blue stuff" works much better on fungus' Funny the "blue stuff"
is commonly used to keep fish eggs free of fungus'. Wouldn't someone
who claimed to raise a 1000 fry know this? That same person might
even know what it is called.
Your lack of understanding the basic principles of filtration and sand
filters is also comical.
Jon Pike
news:c2nqq0d68m69b4il1...@4ax.com:
> On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 05:35:58 GMT, Jon Pike
> <Anono...@spamlesshotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>-snip-
>>look at that... typical usenet behaviour.
>>I've said from the beginning that anyone who wants to get into this
>>needs to do some reading first.
>
> Revisionist history will not help you here. You are on record as
> saying it is hard work and only suited for the technically advanced.
> My response simply put is bull crap.
ROFL.
Okay idiot, here, I'll quote myself:
"You can start out as cheap as you want basically. About.com has some
really great tutorials on the subject. You -have- to do a -lot- of
reading before getting into salt tanks or you'll just end up wasting a
lot of money."
See? First post, first line of the first paragraph. Me saying 'READ
LOTS.'
See that?
Do you see?
>>I've proven you wrong about many points, so what
>>do you do? You resort to petty name-calling.
>>And who has been the ONLY one to not provide any links or resources
>>thus far? Give you a hint... it's you!
>
> There is no need to cite sources for common sense and personal
> experience especially dealing with the topic at hand. My original
> assertion stands virtually unchallenged.
ROFL.
Yeah, okay. Except that by proving you wrong on no less than six major
points, your credibility is shot to shit. Nothing you claim as "personal
experience" is worth anything, because so much of it is just plain wrong.
When that happens, you really ought to turn to someone else to try to get
support for any of your claims. But, of course, everything you say is -
wrong-, so you -can't- quote anyone else.
Jon Pike
news:3inqq0lbs44ot40vb...@4ax.com:
> On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 05:33:07 GMT, Jon Pike
> <Anono...@spamlesshotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Boy, you're thick.
>>Chosing intentionally not to does not mean I can't.
>>By refusing to engage in pointless trivia with someone who obviously
>>doesn't -understand- the subject, I'm encouraging whoever's actually
>>interested to find out FOR THEMSELVES.
>>You know. How I've been saying since the beginning of the thread that
>>there's lots of reading to do?
>
> I thought your lack of knowing what that "blue stuff" was, was
> particularly enlightening. Especially that "blue stuff" is not
> typically used to treat ick. Usually you use the "green stuff" to
> treat ick unless you are treating fish that are susceptible to the
> "green stuff"
http://www.mushi.petfish.net/ick.html
Ick is cured with copper-based treatments.
copper turns things blue.
http://www.petguys.com/-084942113400.html
see?
it's blue.
> The "blue stuff" works much better on fungus' Funny the "blue stuff"
> is commonly used to keep fish eggs free of fungus'. Wouldn't someone
> who claimed to raise a 1000 fry know this? That same person might
> even know what it is called.
>
> Your lack of understanding the basic principles of filtration and sand
> filters is also comical.
heh.
You don't even know the difference between a sand filter and an
undergravel filter. Hell, you think they're the same thing! EVEN though
I've provided links that -clearly- show they're not. In a sand filter,
the sand is called "fluidized"... it means it's suspended up in the
water. in an undergravel filter, the sand is used to clog up the spaces
between the rocks and kill your bacteria.
but you just go on thinking that a sand filter and an undergravel filter
are the same things.
once again:
Sand filters:
http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/listings.categories/ssid/2
19
undergravel filters:
http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/listings.categories/ssid/2
42
see the difference now? or are you -completely- blind?
Jon Pike
news:3inqq0lbs44ot40vb...@4ax.com:
Here's the last post I'll make on this, since you're obviously trolling
at this point.
Here are six major mistakes you've made:
1)
You advocate not doing complete water tests:
"nitrite test kit, ph test kit,"
Claiming instead that nitrate, ammonia, and water hardness tests are
"new":
>What about (especially in calgary) water hardness?
>
>Guess you don't know as much as you like to think you know, eh?
I said I was once an expert in this hobby. It has been almost 20
years since I have stepped into a real fish store. There is lots I
don't know of the latest advances.
2)
You don't think it's a good idea to do prior research, finding out by
accident what doesn't work:
"Unfortunately I discovered this by accident when the new addition to my
tank was globbing on the side of my prized Discus. Needless to say they
were promptly fetched out of that tank and given a communal burial."
3)
You don't know the normal cycling times:
> Given a decent
> sized tank, 48 gallons + with a large surface area I can complete the
> nitrite cycle in less than thirty days. Although I am not surprised
> it would take you two months.
If you want to do a fishless cycle, then yes, you can speed it up a
little. Do you think it's a good idea to advocate trying a fishless cycle
to that someone who admits he knows nothing about it?
Yes, it is faster, but if you don't know what you're doing, you can
overload your tank and end up with a cess-pool.
http://www.tomgriffin.com/aquamag/cycle2.html
10 days to 3 weeks for fishless, vs 4-6 weeks (oh look, two months!) for
'normal'
4)
You think that undergravel filters are a good idea:
"a good sub sand filter (which I manufactured myself),"
But they're not:
http://www.bestfish.com/ug.html
And you don't even know the difference between a Sand Filter and an Under
Gravel Filter!
> Surely you understand the basics of biological filtration. The sub
> sand (semantics) filter
-snip-
> The sand filter is still
> used today as it has been for decades in a variety of forms filtering
> water in swimming pools, hot tubs and believe it or not Jon central
> water filtration systems in fish stores.
And you insist on continuing to call an undergravel filter a sand filter:
"Your lack of understanding the basic principles of filtration and sand
filters is also comical."
yet,
Sand filters:
http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/listings.categories/ssid/2
19
undergravel filters:
http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/listings.categories/ssid/2
42
clearly, very different.
5)
You've been asked multiple times for sources and resources, but ...
> Oh given the time I could cite multiple sources but for now common
> sense and thousands of successful hobbyists will have to suffice.
Given the time? I've asked several times and you've tried to weasel out
of it every time. I was able to cite one extensive source off the top of
my head.
Someone else already googled 4 other sources. Yet mr "owned a pet-store"
can't come up with one?
6)
And of course, you abuse your fish:
"Will your fish tell you if the nitrite levels are creeping up? Sure
they will."
"What happens to fish as they begin to feel the effects of elevated
ammonia? They get jumpy. Give a light tap on the glass with your
fingernail and see how the fish react. "
Your inability to recognize the plain and simply laid out, clearly
referenced, accurate information I have provided makes me think that you
are indeed, just trolling. Everything I've said has been backed up by
well recognized and widely accepted reference pages. You have backed up
nothing with anything but more babble. You can continue to rant like a
moron and throw insults around, as well as your terrible advice. I won't
reply any further, because you clearly don't know what you're talking
about and are absolutely unwilling to learn.
Me
JP prattling on about everything he "knows"! :D They are always full of
contadictions that he is too stupid to recognize or admit. The statement
below is one of many that comes from the jackass that seems to start evey
other post "Silly top poster... blah blah blah". Pretty funny coming from the
guy who says this...
Jon Pike wrote:
> Typical usenet. When you run out of intelligent things to say, and when
> you're too stupid to admit that you're just downright wrong, you resort to
> insults.
>
> [snip]
... and that is how he starts conversations!! =) I guess that it is a sign
that things can only downhill from there!
Pham Nuwen
> I guess that it is a sign that things can only downhill from there!
Except that with Moosey it isn't a matter of going downhill so much as
dropping off the edge of the sidewalk, straight into the gutter.
--
====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+
J
"Jon Pike" <Anono...@spamlesshotmail.com> wrote in message
> Yeah? Where did you read that salt is as easy as fresh?
>
virtually every website I read.........
J
Much more helpful than Jon's "know it all competition"
"Crush" <crush@_NS_telus.net> wrote in message
news:begqq0ho5pn79k6ih...@4ax.com...
J
"Jon Pike" <Anono...@spamlesshotmail.com> wrote > Boy, you're thick.
> Chosing intentionally not to does not mean I can't.
LOL yes but I've seen you "choose not to" in nearly every thread where you
were challenged!
J
"Lance A Boyle" <Lance...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:CVcrd.399483$%k.335002@pd7tw2no...
> Jon Pike wrote:
> > look at that... typical usenet behaviour.
>
> Hey Pike, when are you going to get back to me with your explanation
> about that antenna resonance thing, that you claimed you're some sort of
> expert on?
>
Oh, wait.. he "chose not to".. lmao
J
> Ick is cured with copper-based treatments.
> copper turns things blue.
> http://www.petguys.com/-084942113400.html
> see?
> it's blue.
>
lol good for you Jon. You didn't know what it was so you did a websearch.
Jon Pike
Having fun stalking the threads I post in?
I guess that now that you work for yourself, not for anybody else, you've
got lots of free time to kill eh? Though, I would have thought most of that
time would be taken up with all that foraging you claim to do for yourself.
Joe
>I guess that now that you work for yourself, not for anybody else, you've
>got lots of free time to kill eh? Though, I would have thought most of that
>time would be taken up with all that foraging you claim to do for yourself.
oh work.. that thing.. wait what was your job again there boy?
J
> I guess that now that you work for yourself, not for anybody else, you've
> got lots of free time to kill eh? Though, I would have
You must have a lot of free time, you know lookin after your neopet takes a
lot of time..... BTW, are you a 10 year old? that neopet shit looks pretty
childish.
Pham Nuwen
> Pham Nuwen <no...@none.org> wrote in news:41AE2642...@none.org:
>
> Having fun stalking the threads I post in?
Believe it or not Jonnie, you aren't the center of the universe, in fact
most people including me, don't give two fucks about you. I'll post
where and what I want to, if you have a problem with that, well tough shit.
--
====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+
* Me *
trolling. He is just an ass ... behaves like an ass ... and does what an
ass does ... spews crap.
You have credibility ... arguing with Jon is not required to maintain this
credibility.
Cheers
Calgary
wrote:
LOL. I am a veteran of many a USENET flame war with adversaries
capable of more than useless rhetoric and trash talking. JP is an
amateur by comparison.
Given a little more time I will prepare a more in depth response for
the OP question. Although I am no longer keep fish I still enjoy
discussing it and helping folks new to the hobby.
J
really need to argue who is an idiot, the whole group will back me on this,
you are the idiot.
"Jon Pike" <Anono...@spamlesshotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns95B450BE923BL...@24.71.223.159...
> "G. A. Christian Bilou" <toi...@shaw.ca> wrote in news:qwUrd.420345$%
> k.43525@pd7tw2no:
>
> > Local resources with real info:
> >
> > http://www.calgaryaquariumsociety.com/
> >
> > http://www.s6.invisionfree.com/AlbertaAquatica
>
> Can't help but wonder why he didn't pick up on that the first time you
> posted it :)
>
> --
> http://www.neopets.com/refer.phtml?username=moosespet
J
"Jon Pike" <Anono...@spamlesshotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns95B418F620AFL...@24.71.223.159...
> "J" <flam...@NOSPAMshaw.ca> wrote in news:TcUrd.400261$Pl.346130
> @pd7tw1no:
>
> > thanks "expert" pffft you are such a tool.
> >
> >
> > "Jon Pike" <Anono...@spamlesshotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:Xns95B3F33F29B8EL...@24.71.223.159...
> >> "J" <flam...@NOSPAMshaw.ca> wrote in news:6ITrd.400087$Pl.256817
> >> @pd7tw1no:
> >>
> >> > anyone have any links, or numbers of local aquarium shops?
> >>
> >> phonebook?
>
> lol
> you would've said the same thing even if i'd listed every shop in calgary,
> with a star rating system, AND a detailed description of their products
and
> services!
> rofl!
>
> --
> http://www.neopets.com/refer.phtml?username=moosespet
Jon Pike
news:arUrd.420282$%k.166431@pd7tw2no:
no, I *know* so. I've already provided you with lots of accurate,
referenced, backed up information, and you react the same way no matter
what. You're an idiot.
G. A. Christian Bilou
http://www.calgaryaquariumsociety.com/
http://www.s6.invisionfree.com/AlbertaAquatica
"J" <flam...@NOSPAMshaw.ca> wrote in message
news:6ITrd.400087$Pl.256817@pd7tw1no...
> anyone have any links, or numbers of local aquarium shops?
>
> TIA
>
>
J
Jon Pike
k.43525@pd7tw2no:
> Local resources with real info:
>
> http://www.calgaryaquariumsociety.com/
>
> http://www.s6.invisionfree.com/AlbertaAquatica
Can't help but wonder why he didn't pick up on that the first time you
J
"Jon Pike" <Anono...@spamlesshotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns95B3F33F29B8EL...@24.71.223.159...
> "J" <flam...@NOSPAMshaw.ca> wrote in news:6ITrd.400087$Pl.256817
> @pd7tw1no:
>
> > anyone have any links, or numbers of local aquarium shops?
>
> phonebook?
>
>
> --
> http://www.neopets.com/refer.phtml?username=moosespet
Cal
jon, get over it, you're an idiot. J, you're cool.
just so you guys know, arguing on the internet, is just like the special
olympics. even if you DO WIN, it doesnt matter, you're STILL a retard.
"J" <flam...@NOSPAMshaw.ca> wrote in message
news:VqMqd.376965$nl.23675@pd7tw3no...
> Interested in a salt water setup, have no idea what's involved and what
kind
> of cost i'm lookin at. Anyone have any advice and/or info?
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
Jon Pike
@pd7tw1no:
> thanks "expert" pffft you are such a tool.
>
>
> "Jon Pike" <Anono...@spamlesshotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns95B3F33F29B8EL...@24.71.223.159...
>> "J" <flam...@NOSPAMshaw.ca> wrote in news:6ITrd.400087$Pl.256817
>> @pd7tw1no:
>>
>> > anyone have any links, or numbers of local aquarium shops?
>>
>> phonebook?
lol
you would've said the same thing even if i'd listed every shop in calgary,
with a star rating system, AND a detailed description of their products and
services!
rofl!
G. A. Christian Bilou
Jon Pike
@pd7tw1no:
> anyone have any links, or numbers of local aquarium shops?
phonebook?
Jon Pike
news:uGUrd.400481$Pl.103076@pd7tw1no:
ROFL!
yeah, you just keep on with your "popularity contests" on usenet!
you dolt!
M.Landrie
that bad since you saw some fishies there you liked *wink*
G. A. Christian Bilou
out who carries what specific items you are looking for, and at the best
prices....and, if you are buying a fair bit over the next year, becoming a
CAS member for $25 entitles you to some pretty decent discounts on both dry
goods and livestock at several local shops (quite worth it if you plan on
spending $200+ in the next year).
"J" <flam...@NOSPAMshaw.ca> wrote in message
news:uGUrd.400481$Pl.103076@pd7tw1no...