Opinions on Groovemonkee MIDI loops (for EZDrummer)
Jonathan
in quality to the ones provided by Toontrack.
Has anyone here used both?
I'm, specifically interested in the following genres:
country
70's pop
light rock
I have the Classic, Nashville, and Vintage Rock expansion packs from
Toontrack as well as quite a few of the Toontrack MIDI libraries, but
I'm specifically having trouble finding usable fills and endings.
Thanks,
Jonathan
Rick Paul
don't recall much about my thoughts on them at this point. I've mostly
used Toontrack loops recently, mainly because they are matched to the
sounds, though I sometimes use loops from one EZX or SDX packages with
another EZX or SDX package.
Finding good (as in appropriate for the context of your specific song)
intros, fills, and endings, tends to be an issue with most loop sets.
That is really where editing comes in much of the time. The Toontrack
stuff varies widely between packages, with some having nice selections
and others having minimal selections. I seem to remember the Groove
Monkee stuff having some relatively consistent patterns of what they
provided for each set of styles, but also fairly limited variations.
As for styles, I think I was mostly using hip-hop-oriented patterns from
Groove Monkee, but using them in genres other than hip-hop, including
country. I believe I was specifically trying to get some more creative
stuff going on the stylistic front, perhaps because what some view as
"country" is more like old-style "country and western" or some such
thing, or at least more dated than the current stuff. I don't recall
much about Groove Monkee country loops, though (even if they had them).
I guess my general feeling is that having lots of options in MIDI drum
loops is a good thing. Of course, it can also mean drowning in choices,
but my general take on that is to have something I use as a first call
product (or product family), going with that unless I can't find
something close enough to what I'm looking for, in which case I'll go to
whatever else I have that might fill the need. At the moment, the
Toontrack stuff tends to be my first call for pretty much all my
drumming needs, so the other solutions I have, be they softsynths, MIDI
loops, or audio loops, don't see all that much action, though they do
sometimes see some.
Rick
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Max Arwood
Toontracks first
Groove monkey second
Max Arwood
"Rick Paul" <rick...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:y9idnb5JqLAXG5TT...@earthlink.com...
Dave "Mod Bod" Modisette
I think the Groovemonkee grooves generally sound and feel good but
there's a certain amount of dynamic range that they miss in comparison
to the Toontrack grooves. Their price point is very good.
--
Dave "Mod Bod" Modisette
kitekrazy
> Don't forget the Platinum Samples loops also. They are really nice too.
>
> I think the Groovemonkee grooves generally sound and feel good but
> there's a certain amount of dynamic range that they miss in comparison
> to the Toontrack grooves. Their price point is very good.
>
>
> On 6/27/2011 1:02 PM, Jonathan wrote:
>> I'm curious as to how the Groovemonkee loops (for EZDrummer) compare
>> in quality to the ones provided by Toontrack.
>> Has anyone here used both?
>>
>> I'm, specifically interested in the following genres:
>>
>> country
>> 70's pop
>> light rock
>>
>> I have the Classic, Nashville, and Vintage Rock expansion packs from
>> Toontrack as well as quite a few of the Toontrack MIDI libraries, but
>> I'm specifically having trouble finding usable fills and endings.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Jonathan
>
>
Actually the separate midis you can buy from Toontrack cost less.
Jonathan
> I agree with Rick....
> Toontracks first
> Groove monkey second
> Max Arwood
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Thanks for the responses...
Google Groups was down for over a week, so I couldn't respond.
I got some of the Groovemonkey loops to check them out and I agree
that they don't have enough dynamic range.
I just discovered EZPlayer Pro, and I think it's gonna make my drum
arranging much easier.
Do y'all know if there's a quick way to figure out how many measures
are in a loop without auditioning it?
That would make it much easier to find potential candidates when I'm
looking for something.
Right now I have to drag a loop onto the EZPlayer arranger to see how
long it is.
Rick Paul
> Do y'all know if there's a quick way to figure out how many measures
> are in a loop without auditioning it?
Not that I'm aware of. I tend to audition loops anyway since I want to
hear them playing in the context of my arrangement, even if it may be
pretty basic at the point when I'm sequencing drum loops.
Jonathan
Rick, I think I remember you saying that you use both EZDrummer and
Superior.
Do you find that you use Superior Drummer on more projects that
EZDrummer?
I don't own Superior, but I have a few of the EZDrummer expansion
packs.
Is there that much of a sound difference?
Does Superior require more tweaking to get it to sound good in a mix?
Thanks,
Jonathan
Rick Paul
> Rick, I think I remember you saying that you use both EZDrummer and
> Superior.
> Do you find that you use Superior Drummer on more projects that
> EZDrummer?
It's hard to say as it totally depends on the project, the genre, my
preconceptions on which kit I'm likely to use, how much of a rush I'm
in, etc. For example, if it's something like soft rock, which might be
one of the best descriptions of my more common genres, I'll probably
start out with the default Superior Drummer 2.0 Avatar kit, and odds are
pretty good that's also where I'll end up. If I don't, though, I might
be using another SDX or EZX under the Superior Drummer interface. On
the other hand, if I'm starting something where I want a hip-hop feel
(at least on the drums), I'll probably start right away in EZ Drummer
with whichever EZX I think is likely to come closest to the sound I'm
thinking I'll want. If it's country, odds are I'll go with either the
Music City USA SDX or the Nashville EZX. In that case, though, if I'm
in a rush I might be more likely to just start with EZ Drummer because
it streamlines the interface, whereas, if I have more time, I might
start out with Superior and Music City USA expecting I might want to
tweak things a bit more. Of course, sometimes I end up changing my mind
along the way.
> I don't own Superior, but I have a few of the EZDrummer expansion
> packs.
>
> Is there that much of a sound difference?
I suspect it depends what you're using. If you're using the same EZX in
Superior Drummer versus EZ Drummer, I'd think they'd be likely to sound
the same, though Superior Drummer might give you more tweaking options
(I don't tend to do much tweaking beyond the trying different mix
presents and occasionally moving a fader or two level). Of course, the
SDX kits are only available on the Superior Drummer side, so if you want
those sounds, there is no choice but to go with Superior.
> Does Superior require more tweaking to get it to sound good in a mix?
I can't say it has for my purposes, but I'm really not a tweaker, so I
tend to try out presets and see what comes closest and maybe move some
faders to balance levels. If I don't find what I like, I might be
inclined to try another kit and see how things go with their mix presets.
Glennbo might have a different answer for you as I think he finely tunes
his drum kit setups. EZ Drummer doesn't tend to give you that level of
flexibility.
Jonathan
Thanks for the response, Rick.
Are the MIDI loops that come with the EZXs suitable for the SDXs and
vice versa?
Dave "Mod Bod" Modisette
grooves and that is because the sample sets for those EZXs are a bit
over the top and mainly intended to be played wide open. Some kits
don't sound right with them as well as some midi grooves don't quite
match the Metal sample sets.
Most of the grooves are pretty much universal. Especially the newer
ones. The grooves are longer and they breathe more. The Toontrack
developers have really worked on this technique. That's not to say you
can't find the odd groove that sticks out like a sore thumb on a given
EZX or SDX.
John Braner
Sometimes you have to change a tom or something like that - but the grooves are really good, so it's
worth a little tweak here and there...
Personally, I always tweak the loops to fit what I'm doing...
--
===========
John Braner
jbr...@NOblueyonderSPAM.co.uk
http://cdbaby.com/cd/JohnBraner
http://www.soundclick.com/johnbraner
Rick Paul
the Twisted Kit EZX, depending on how you use it at least, and Latin
Percussion EZX are a couple I can think of where the grooves aren't
easily interchangeable with others (and vice-versa). But most of the
others I've got seem to be pretty interchangeable.
Rick
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Rick Paul
Main Web Site: http://www.RickPaul.info
Studio Page: http://studio.RickPaul.info
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Jonathan
Rick,
I notice that the grooves labeled "fills" seem to work pretty well for
endings, but when I use a fill for the last measure, the drums seem to
end too abruptly. Do you ever use any trick at the end of the last
measure to keep the drums ringing a little longer, or am I just using
the wrong grooves?
Thanks,
Jonathan
Rick Paul
> I notice that the grooves labeled "fills" seem to work pretty well for
> endings, but when I use a fill for the last measure, the drums seem to
> end too abruptly. Do you ever use any trick at the end of the last
> measure to keep the drums ringing a little longer, or am I just using
> the wrong grooves?
I'm reading two possible things into your question here:
First is a question on the selection of MIDI patterns. I'm finding it
hard to imagine a fill as the actual ending of a song (i.e. as a general
case). It might be just before the ending in some cases, but then I'd
expect at least a hit on one of the next measure would be needed since a
fill generally leads into something (e.g. the next section of the song).
Second is whether you might mean that the sound just cuts out abruptly,
independent of what is at the end of that pattern -- or example, if it
is a cymbal crash and it's not ringing out. If this is what you mean, I
think there may be a setting in SONAR somewhere that immediately stops
playback at the end of a project, which could be a bad thing in the case
of a MIDI pattern used with a sound that has some sustain beyond the end
of the note. (I know there is a setting as to whether effects tails are
played when playback does stop, too.)
Beginnings and endings are always tricky when sequencing MIDI loops,
sometimes even when the loop library has intro and ending loops since
those are areas that tend to be a lot more song-specific than grooves in
the middle of a song. What I generally try to do is find the loop or
sequence of loops that comes closest to what I want, then edit the loops
for my needs. For endings, that almost always at least involves
deleting extra beats at the end and changing some hits to different
instruments (e.g. to end with a crash cymbal instead of a hi-hat).
Sometimes it might also involve adding hits or moving hits around.
Jonathan
Yeah...I guess you're right about the fills. That makes sense.
And it explains why the endings sound abrupt as well.
I'm just getting back to this stuff after a many year hiatus, and
now that I think about it, the difficulty with endings is probably why
I used to end most of my songs with fades :)
One problem I am having is that I often end a song by repeating a 4
measure refrain a couple times at the end of a chorus, where the
chorus itself is made up of 8 measure grooves.
Perhaps I ought to try using just the second half of the 8 measure
chorus groove for the first refrain (since it ends with a fill),
followed by the first half for the final refrain, since it *doesn't*
end in a fill...
Wow...I think this discussion just yielded some fruit :)
I'm still sort of wary to slice and dice these grooves, but I guess I
need to get over that fear.
EZPlayer Pro seems to have some nifty tools for clipping and modifying
grooves. I'm gonna have to experiment some more.
Thanks for all the responses,
Jonathan
John Braner
> I'm still sort of wary to slice and dice these grooves, but I guess I
> need to get over that fear.
Jonathan - get over the fear! ;-)
You should slice, dice, reorganise, add things, delete things and generally mold these things to fit
your song. Don't just use them as they are!
I would suggest that these loops should be the "starting point" for you - and you tweak accordingly
after that. Make them work for your song rather than writing your song around them...
just my �0.02 (worth about $0.03)
Rick Paul
Also, in the specific case you mentioned about using the last 4 measures
of an 8-measure groove versus the first 4 measures, another option is to
use the first 2 measures and the last two measures. Bottom line,
though, is it is whatever works best.
Rick
===============================================
Rick Paul
Main Web Site: http://www.RickPaul.info
Studio Page: http://studio.RickPaul.info
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/rickpaulmusic
===============================================
Jonathan
Great idea.
Thanks!