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Evaristo Nicholls
After having read posts here at the pegbox and also at the fingerboard,Im left with the impression that french(and,of course,italian)violins aged from 50-150 years are generally considered better than their german equivalents.Is this a fact,and if it is,why is it so?Some information on the construction aspects would be intersting.
A short answer before real experts respond: greater artistic merit, workmanship and models, far fewer specimens ( I have wondered are there 5,000 handmade/semi-factory German instruments for every Italian or is it more like 10,000 or 100,000 - I'm sure we'll never knowbut any experts like to guess?) Slightly off-topic, I have had the interesting experience of looking for a violin the past year in a range of $30-50K. I initially looked only at Italian, then English and French and contemporary instruments, about 50-60 in number. I enjoyed playing many of them but found them all lacking in some area or another. After making an expensive (at least until I sell it/trade it back) mistake close to my limit I finally found and bought two violins that had superior tone, response, projection, and sweetness. One German a fake Chanot label, the other probably also German although no one has looked at it. In addition I had found one more (a 1920's Italian by label and as presented by the shop) that sounded terrific - I was all set to buy until my expert advisor (and another expert from a major shop) told me it was certainly a Markneukirchen German fiddle from the same period worth 1/8 the asking price. (But beautifully built he assured me)
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I would have loved to have the prestige of owning a nice Italian or French in that range - I just couldn't find one better than the German trio. I have been playing my favorite for a month and I am excited every time I begin to play. I won't say I haven't played better sounding vioins in my search - a Rocca and a Gagliano come to mind - but they were well out of my range. My experience in this price range: Money=Sound = no correlation.
I'm not playing in Ray's league, but there's a reason why there are many old, muddy brown German fiddles out there that have been repaired innumerable times: because they sound quite good in relation to their cost. They're just harder to sort out from all the junk.
I would like to add that my experience does not in any way suggest that on average a less expensive German instrument would be expected to be superior or even equal to a higher priced French or Italian in quality of sound or workmanship. I theorize that there have been some very fine German makers of the 19th and 20th century who have had to pay a price for the multitude of poorly made instruments produced by their countrymen.
Lwl, I considered that possibility. I had gotten approval from the shop offering the violin to take it to Chicago and have it looked at by several people - the salesman said something to the effect that this "would make me feel even better about the instrument" since I had already indicated a willingness to purchase it pending verification of the pedigree. When I called them to return the instrument I explained (without naming names - can't do that) that opinion was unanimous that the fiddle was German, circa 1920. There was a response of "Well, that's very interesting, sorry it didn't work out for you." There was no suggestion that they were changing their minds and I have every reason to believe the instrument is still for sale at it's original price. I really do like the violin I have now best of all so I really can't complain at all.
The only addition (train of thought) I might add to this thread: It seems to me that before one tries to compare the merits of different "classes" and origins of instruments, a careful examination of ones needs and priorities are in order.
As Michael mentioned, fine French and Italian instruments have a reputation, earned over a good deal of time, for satisfying serious performers. That does not mean that any of these instruments, even those with proven track records, are the "right" instrument for a specific player or use.
If you are a student, chances are you can't reach the potential some instruments have to offer... and reaching that "core" can sometimes be quite challenging.... and not much "fun" until you figured it out.
If you play chamber music with your buddies once a week, and they are all playing Gligas and Sofias (and I'm not suggesting anything is wrong with these instruments), your Amati might not blend well with the group (but you might have a blast playing it )
I know players who keep several bows in their case and mention "I use that one when I'm not in top shape... It's easier for me to use... but this one... The Peccatte... Wow, what a sound." I've heard similar stories about fiddles.
Now, Dobro, I know I didn't get into the construction, model, and maintenance (restoration) issues you asked about... Frankly, I think it would be a pretty long post and these details are available in other forms (texts), and authored by better writers than I... but I will say that, when dealing with older instruments, less expensive ones (German Klotz instruments, for example) often do not receive the quality of restoration that old Italian instruments do... It's economics, unfortunately.... Just can't through 20K into a restoration on a 12K fiddle.... Finding a Klotz in good shape might make for a very happy chamber player, though.... Especially if it mixed well with the other instruments in the group.
Generally, the schools of making which are better respected (and thus cost more) get that respect because for more musicians they hit the target more often with the examples which are considered the typical models of their time and place. There have been exceptions of individual good makers in every country and time, however, who have not followed the typical inferior example of their fellow local makers, but still to some extent share the bad reputation of their surroundings.
Individual tastes, by individual musicians, towards individual instruments, under different circumstances, are often totally inscrutable, so every individual is capable of telling a different personal story with individual validity which might not generalize to others.
The French (and particularly, Parisian) makers of the last half of the 1800s have done so well because they were, of all nationalities at that time, the most exposed to the fine instruments of the past; generally, the closer a violin is to one of the universally-accepted Cremonese models, the better it will perform. Overall, German makers have had less exposure to those models, and less respect for them when they saw them, and thus were less successful, but there have always been exceptions.
Thank you all for interesting information!The case is:I,ve been lent a fairly old violin from some relatives,and theres nothing written inside of it.(Its from ca.1920,according to my father in law who claims that this violin was built by a norwegian lithier for his father.However,Ive taken this fiddle to an amateur luthier I know,and he tends to believe its a german workshop-made instrument....He hasnt stringed it yet,so neither of us know how it sounds....My (perhaps stupid) question is:Is there any way a novice like myself can get a clue to the origins of this instrument,or do I have to take it to an expert(who of course is much too expensive for my small needs).Is there something about the instrument I should look for,construction details etc.Although this isnt really important to me,Im still a bit curios about the story of an old instrument I maybe will be playing for years to come....Again:Thank you all for creating THE website for stringed instruments!
Some dealers just like talking about violins, especially if they know that you're not there to extract from them for free what they sell in their shops (and by that I mean, appraisals, in this instance). I don't know how it is where you are, buy here a verbal appraisal is not expensive at all, and can open the door to an interesting conversation sometimes, if the violin warrants it. It all depends on whom you approach, and how. There really isn't a way you can look at something and know what it is--German or Norwegian, and I don't know a whole lot about Norwegian makers, but their methods could be very close to Germans, anyway. Still, what a good shop could tell you might be interesting, if you go into it with a good attitude and lots of curiosity. I'd advise you, however, to not worry too much about the violin's value, and stay away from making that a major point of your visit--sometimes the less you ask, the more you learn. :-)
Thank you,Mr.Darnton.Now the eventual value of the instrument really doesnt interest me(I dont suppose its valuable ),for me its mere curiosity and a keen interest in the facinating subject of (old)instruments.One last question oes the fact that the instrument carries no label indicate anything at all?And would a professional luthier in most cases label his instruments?Once again:Thank you(you guys must get a little fed up with all these apparently silly questions you get,but some of us surely learn a thing or to anyhow....)
Most professional violinmakers would label their work. One possible reason for the lack of a label would be that the maker was a bit of an amateur, and didn't necessarily want his name to stick on his first efforts. If he used parts from Germany which were already partially finished, as many amateurs do, that might account for the German factory look.
Is this not all about historical context. After all the founding figure of the Romantic violin playing was a Italian (Viotti) playing a Italian violin (Strad) in France (Paris) using a French bow (Tourte). Did this not establish the ideal for violin playing. Even today over two hundred latter we can not change or even question that ideal.
No. Nor do the Spanish, nor Americans. The system is heavily weighted against non-Italians. If you wonder why, ask your friends what they dream of owning, and then ask them if they've ever played one of what they dream of owning. Most will not have.
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