Bayfield 36 / Cabo Rico 34

[Fabrizio Ladi]

Hello, I wonder if any of you that own a Cabo Rico 34/6 have the ability to compare your boat and its performance under sail with the Bayfield 36 cutter. It would be very useful to hear your feedback. Thanks in advance. Fabrizio

[Tom Fuhs]

Well, I cannot comment on performance under sail of those two particular boats, but I can comment on the general construction and build quality of Cabo Rico vs. Bayfield.  My wife and I own a Bayfield 32 in addition to our Cabo Rico 38.  The Bayfield's construction is not to the same level of robustness as the Cabo Rico.  The Cabo Rico feels solid in any weather or conditions.  You never hear movement or flexing.  The Bayfield, although much better than many other boats I've been on, does have some movement and does not feel as solid.  Part of the that is due to build methods.  The Bayfield utilizes a pan liner to stiffen the hull and locate bulkheads, whereas the Cabo Rico is built up,  i.e., the bulkheads and structural components are tabbed to the hull and deck.  The Bayfield 36 was designed by Hayden Gozzard, where as the 32 (and all other Bayfield models) was designed by his brother Ted Gozzard.  Ted tended to draw hulls with a more classic wineglass section with a slack bilge.  Hayden drew a more flat secton / harder turn of the bilge.  So all things being equal (and they never are), the Bayfield 36 will likely be not as comfortable due to the hull shape alone.  The Bayfield 36 *may* point a bit higher.  But that's just from looking at the hull shape, and as we all know, there is a lot more to it so take that for what it's worth.  If I had to pick a boat to cross an ocean, the Cabo Rico would be  higher on my list than the Bayfield, but the Bayfield would be higher on my list than most any "production" boat.

On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 4:20 PM, Fabrizio Ladi <f...@adarama.ch> wrote:

Hello, I wonder if any of you that own a Cabo Rico 34/6 have the ability to compare your boat and its performance under sail with the Bayfield 36 cutter. It would be very useful to hear your feedback. Thanks in advance. Fabrizio

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[Fabrizio Ladi Bucciolini]

Thank you Tom, what about speed? :-)

 

Fabrizio Ladi Bucciolini

Route du Roc-a-l’Aigle 26

Frenieres Sur Bex

CH-1880

Mob. +41 79 682 16 80
Tel.   +41 22 347 35 33
f...@adarama.ch

[gregry melnechuk]

The bayfield cutter has a longer waterline and therefore would be faster.  The bayfield, I believe is 4o some feet overall.

On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 1:20 PM, Fabrizio Ladi <f...@adarama.ch> wrote:

Hello, I wonder if any of you that own a Cabo Rico 34/6 have the ability to compare your boat and its performance under sail with the Bayfield 36 cutter. It would be very useful to hear your feedback. Thanks in advance. Fabrizio

--

[Fabrizio Ladi Bucciolini]

Dear Tom,

 

The information you give me is very important, I am in the process of selecting the boat to use in a very long round the world race, called the Golden Globe. It has to be run with long keel production boats designed before 1988 and built of fiberglass and no longer than 36 ft on deck.  Amongst the many options available I have thus far shortlisted the Cabo Rico and the Bayfield 36. You can read more about it if you follow the link to the race on the website; www.bluechallenge.org . The structural strength advantage of the Cabo Rico is no doubt a reassuring feature for a boat that will have to spend 8 or 9 months sailing, and that will with no doubt meet tough circumstances. It is a bit lighter of the Bayfield and has a smaller sail area, as well as a shorter waterline as Greg pointed out. One knot or even ½ a knot of speed difference over an extended period can make a dramatic difference, not only for a purely competitive reason, but also from a time at sea/safety perspective. Information is very scarce on the web, and at time contradictory concerning sail area, and I wonder if you are aware of any resources that can be used to obtain accurate measurements for these boats. I think that in late October I will fly over to the states and test these two boats in order to try and make my mind up. The hull shape of the Cabo Rico is more promising with its wider profile... any thoughts are more than welcome from this group that has extensive experience at sailing and living on this beautiful boat, thanks.

 

FABRIZIO LADI BUCCIOLINI

Mob. +41 79 682 16 80

f...@bluechallenge.org

www.bluechallenge.org

 

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From: cabo...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cabo...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Tom Fuhs
Sent: 02 September 2015 22:59
To: cabo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [caborico] Bayfield 36 / Cabo Rico 34

 

Well, I cannot comment on performance under sail of those two particular boats, but I can comment on the general construction and build quality of Cabo Rico vs. Bayfield.  My wife and I own a Bayfield 32 in addition to our Cabo Rico 38.  The Bayfield's construction is not to the same level of robustness as the Cabo Rico.  The Cabo Rico feels solid in any weather or conditions.  You never hear movement or flexing.  The Bayfield, although much better than many other boats I've been on, does have some movement and does not feel as solid.  Part of the that is due to build methods.  The Bayfield utilizes a pan liner to stiffen the hull and locate bulkheads, whereas the Cabo Rico is built up,  i.e., the bulkheads and structural components are tabbed to the hull and deck.  The Bayfield 36 was designed by Hayden Gozzard, where as the 32 (and all other Bayfield models) was designed by his brother Ted Gozzard.  Ted tended to draw hulls with a more classic wineglass section with a slack bilge.  Hayden drew a more flat secton / harder turn of the bilge.  So all things being equal (and they never are), the Bayfield 36 will likely be not as comfortable due to the hull shape alone.  The Bayfield 36 *may* point a bit higher.  But that's just from looking at the hull shape, and as we all know, there is a lot more to it so take that for what it's worth.  If I had to pick a boat to cross an ocean, the Cabo Rico would be  higher on my list than the Bayfield, but the Bayfield would be higher on my list than most any "production" boat.

[Dave Newberg]

Fabrizio,

This race will be a very interesting event to observe - I eagerly look forward to it. You’ll have a formidable cast of experienced competitors and tight restrictions. The age range of entrants amazes me - there’s even one older than me in there. Although I no longer feel capable taking on such a difficult challenge, I will certainly employ my imagination. 

If I may speak for all of us here, it would give us great pleasure to see a Cabo Rico in this race. But regardless of what boat you choose, my wishes go out for the very best of luck to you in your boat search and your endeavors in this adventure. 

Cheers

Dave

Cigano, CR34

[Thierry Danz]

Have you considered the Tiburon 36? That was the predecessor to the Cabo Rico 38. The CR38 is a stretched version of the Tiburon. The Tiburon is a ketch. They were built in the mid 1970s. As they are older, and less known than the CR38, they are usually much cheaper. Sometimes Tiburons even show up on eBay or Craigslist.

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/cache/searchResults.jsp?man=tiburon&is=false&type=%28Sail%29&luom=126&fromLength=&toLength=&fromYear=&toYear=&pricderange=Select+Price+Range&Ntt=&fromPrice=0&toPrice=&searchtype=homepage&cit=true&slim=quick&ybw=&sm=3&Ntk=boatsEN&currencyid=100

The CR34 was designed in the late 1980s and there were only about 35 built. As far as I know the first one was built in 1989.

Thierry

CR42#12 Curlew

Baltimore, MD

[Tom Fuhs]

I thought of that as well Theirry.  I'm not sure if a ketch would help or hurt in this race.  It depends on the rule.  My guess is there is a reason that you don't see ketch rigs in many races, but I don't really know for sure.    In any event, if someone was looking for a real project, there is this... http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/48517  I'll bet you could get it for significantly less than the $17k asking price.  A *lot* of work to be done there.  

[SeaClearly]

We know that boat, Tom!  A wonderful couple in our neighborhood in the Outer Banks bought her new and circumnavigated back in the day.  What wonderful stories they told;  they spent 10 years living in the places along the way.  We loved the world map showing their route, truly an inspiration to us.  They were originally from San Francisco and settled here afterwards.

They continued to sail her locally for many years.  Same sad story you often hear, Randy developed cancer and they sold the boat.  He has since passed, but what a life they lived!!

Bottom line:  Saracen has good mojo!

Fair Winds, Randy!

[Fabrizio Ladi Bucciolini]

Dear Randy, Tom & Dave, thank you for your thoughts.

 

I did think of the Tiburon, and as you mention there are pros & cons with two rigs, also the race organizer ruled it out.

 

Speed requirements are all relative in this race as you can see from the list of approved boats below, what are your thoughts on how a CR34 would compete??

 

Thanks Fabrizio

	LOA	LOD	LWL	DISP	Beam	BALLAST	SA	SA/DISP	BAL/DISP	DISP/LEN	max hull speed	capsize screen ratio	motion comfort
Aries 32		32.00	26.00	16,000	8.6	4,500	469.00	11.82	28.12%	406.00	6.83	1.37	48.58
Baba 35	37	34.83	29.58	21,140	11.2	8,000	758.00	15.86	37.85%	365.00	7.29	1.62	40.31
Biscay 36		35.11	27.00	15,840	10.9	6,800	710.00	18.01	42.93%	359.27	6.96	1.74	33.08
Bowman 36		36.00	26.67	18,500	11.3	7,215	552.00	12.67	39.00%	435.00	6.92	1.66	38.08
Cape Dory 36		36.13	27.00	16,100	10.7	6,050	622.00	16.61	37.57%	365.00	6.96	1.69	34.08
Nicholson 32 MKX-XI		32.00	24.00	12,200	9.3	6,800	470.00	14.19	55.73%	394.00	6.56	1.62	35.08
Rustler 36		35.33	26.92	16,805	11.0	7,619	467.00	11.39	45.34%	384.00	6.95	1.72	34.65
Westsail 32		32.00	27.50	19,500	11.0	7,000	663.00	14.7	35.90%	419.00	7.03	1.63	41.14
Tradewind 35		35.00	25.00	18,000	10.7	8,000	556.92	12.98	44.44%	514.00	6.7	1.63	40.43
Saga 36		35.75	28.25	18,000	10.8	7,000	565.00	13.16	38.89%	356.40	7.12	1.65	36.74
Saltram 36		35.90	28.30	20,390	10.9	7,760	561.00	12.03	38.06%	401.60	7.13	1.6	41
Vancouver 32 & 32		32.00	27.50	14,500	10.6	6,000	576.00	15.55	41.38%	311.00	7.03	1.74	32.22
Cabo Rico 34	37	34	26.67	15500	11	5800	745	19.17	37.42	364.77	6.92	1.76	32.61
Bayfield 36	41.3	36	30.5	18500	12	6500	870	19.9	35.14	291.09	7.4	1.81	29.62

 

 

 

Fabrizio Ladi Bucciolini

Route du Roc-a-l’Aigle 26

Frenieres Sur Bex

CH-1880

Mob. +41 79 682 16 80

Tel.   +41 22 347 35 33
f...@adarama.ch

[Tom Fuhs]

Hello Fabrizio,

I followed the link to the race.  This is a very intriguing     Somehow I did not put together in my mind that this is to be a race following the same route as the original Sunday Times Golden Globe around the world race.  I have to say, if I were contemplating a solo circumnavigation in the southern ocean, around the five great capes, I would *much* rather do that in a Cabo Rico than in a Bayfield.  Again, I don't have any direct experience with a Bayfield 36 as ours is a 32, but the the overall build robustness of the 32 is not up to that task in my opinion.  That's is not to say that a Bayfield 36 could not be strengthened and modified to the task, it's just that I think it was not really designed for it.  Bayfield yachts were designed and built for comfortable cruising in the Great Lakes and Caribbean.  I'd even say a "typical" circumnavigation  following the typical tropical "Coconut Milk Run" route would be ok.  But the southern capes is another thing altogether.  Actually, the more I think about it,. the more I like the Tiburon I linked to earlier http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/48517. , especially if funds are tight and if you have the time and skills for refit and repairs.  The ketch rig would probably allow easier sail management for single handing, especially in the kinds of conditions you are likely to find regularly on that route.  For light air, you can rig 2 spinnakers.  I'm certainly no expert on southern ocean sailing, but it sure seems to me that the real limiting factor is the sailor, not the boat.   By that I mean that I think the sailor who is taking the less beating, is the sailor likely to do better in general. In any event, I agree with Dave, and I'm eager to follow the race.  

-Tom

On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 2:53 AM, Fabrizio Ladi Bucciolini <f...@adarama.ch> wrote:

[Tom Fuhs]

What a great story!  -T

[Fabrizio Ladi Bucciolini]

I agree with many of your thoughts Tom, however race committee has ruled the Tiburon out! The 36 Bayfield has a lot more waterline, the question is does it necessarily translate in a higher average speed over the long run of the race?

 

Fabrizio Ladi Bucciolini

Route du Roc-a-l’Aigle 26

Frenieres Sur Bex

CH-1880

Mob. +41 79 682 16 80

Tel.   +41 22 347 35 33
f...@adarama.ch

[Tom Fuhs]

That's interesting.  I wonder why the Tiburon was ruled out.  It's a rather short list, so perhaps the committee simply picked a range of boats and that's that.   In any event, you are right, the Bayfield does have a longer LWL.  So on a broad reach in calm conditions, she'll win the day.  How many of those days do you think you'll see in the southern ocean?  I really can't say.  Perhaps the best boat for this particular race is the one which recovers from being slammed on her ear with the least drama.  They are all small boats, and are likely to get thrown around a bit on that race.  I do know that it's often not a good idea to simply play the numbers game when attempting to predict yacht performance comparisons.   I think I would try to enlist the services of a modern navel architect.  I know that Bob Perry offers consultation and he may even help you out on his fee as it's for charity.   I can't say, but it's a thought.  He designed one of the boats on your list, the Baba.   It's a shame Bill Crealock is no longer with us, as I'm pretty sure he'd be generous with his thoughts.  

-Tom

[Thierry Danz]

What about an Alberg 35? She's not on the list, but seems to meet the requirements.

Thierry

[Fabrizio Ladi Bucciolini]

Hey Thierry,

 

I’m sure the alberg 35 could be approved, like several other designs of those years, but I do not see any great competitive edge when compared to many of the boats in the list, the Cabo Rico and the Bayfield differ significantly from the other designs, and they boast very different SA/disp ratios, hull lengths, profiles etc... etc...

 

Fabrizio Ladi Bucciolini

Route du Roc-a-l’Aigle 26

Frenieres Sur Bex

CH-1880

Mob. +41 79 682 16 80
Tel.   +41 22 347 35 33
f...@adarama.ch

 

[Fabrizio Ladi Bucciolini]

Dear Tom, any help is welcome, i have been speaking to several big ocean racers in these days, but they are used to such different boats, that they really do not know how to advice! An architect could indeed provide a very valuable feedback as you rightly said!  I will be taking some important meetings later this month in terms of the global strategy for this challenge and as they become more clear, particularly on the philanthropic side, I will certainly contact architects for their take on the boat to use...

[Breck Caine Cabo #19]

That is a really good deal. 

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