Westerbeke 46 lifetime

[davo]

Hi,

Just a quick survey if that's ok.  How many CR 38's built in the 80's still have the original Westerbeke (or Perkins) engines in them and how many hours have they done?

Venture has the original Westerbeke 46 engine in it.  I was told it had done 3200 hours when I bought it last February but I've had it over a year now and already put another 350 hrs on it already so I'm a bit sceptical.  The person I bought it from said the hour meter had never worked properly since he bought it so I've just been logging the hours.  It currently reads 796 hours BTW <sigh />.

Anyway, the engine has been giving us some strife recently, so much so that it seems to be the only component on the boat that I'm constantly working on. 

The latest issue is a bad oil leak on the starboard side of the motor that I'm having real trouble locating due to accessibility issues. Incidentally, there are also a few minor leaks all over.  I have to fix this permanently as I really don't want to be polluting the Barrier Reef when we get up there later this year and it looks like my only option is to remove the manifold and oil cooler so I can see what's happening meaning new gaskets etc which are difficult to get hold of now.  Better would be to take the motor out and re-condition it with new gaskets all round etc.

Anyway, I'm considering just replacing the motor so at least I know it's history and I know it will definitely not be leaking oil.

Any advice from readers?

I'm getting another couple of mechanics to have a look at it as well to see what they say.

Thank in advance
Dave + Terry

[Mickey Panayiotakis]

Mine is a 1980 and I still have the original perkins. Still going strong. 2600 hours on the ticker—who knows how accurate that is? :) Rebuilt mine a few years back—transmission leak ruined my seals and I couldn't stand the leaks.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "caborico" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to caborico+u...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to cabo...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/caborico.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[S/V Silhouette]

I'll respond as a Perkins owner. My CR38 has the original Perkins 4-108
installed. The hour meter sits at 5,195 as of today when I changed the
oil, gearbox ATF etc., after a long passage. I'm sure the hour meter was
not installed when the boat was new based on the collection of
documents, notes etc. that came with the boat. Based on compression
tests I'm guessing this engine may have as much as 8,000 hours on it. I
have spoken with a number of experienced Perkins mechanics who have told
me that if the engine has had proper/frequent oil changes, the best
thing one can do with any engine, then these engines can easily go
10,000 or more hours without any major issues. As I mentioned in
previous posts, I did a "mini" overhaul three years ago just before I
set off for the South Pacific and replaced hoses, pan gaskets, front and
rear seals etc. I also installed a Walker Airsep which did wonders in
terms of reducing oil leakage.

Perkins have a reputation for leaking oil as do many other British
engines. Ask any Austin Healy, MG, etc., sports car owner. There's an
old joke about why the Brits never made computers... "...because they
couldn't find a way to make them leak."

On my 4-108 the biggest oil leaker on the starboard side of my engine
(i.e the stbd side of the boat), was the gasket under the low pressure
fuel pump. The stock gasket is paper thin, meaning like a piece of cheap
printer paper, actually thinner than that, really, really thin. I had a
constant leak there until I made a new gasket from thicker material.
Here in the US the auto parts stores sell packages of mixed gasket
materials, thin, thick, heavy duty as in exhaust manifolds etc., and I
just chose a thicker material and cut my own using the fuel pump base as
the pattern. Hasn't leaked a drop of oil since. BTW, I saw similar packs
of gasket material in auto parts suppliers while in NZ last year so I
assume they are available in Oz as well. Since you mentioned needing to
remove the manifold, oil cooler etc. perhaps we are speaking of
different sides of the engine. On my Perkins the only source of oil
leakage under the manifold (port side) is the high pressure injection
pump gasket. There are no other oil gallery related parts on that side
of the block.

I can't address the parts issue for Australia but I've had no problem
getting parts elsewhere. The Perkins engines were used in many service
venues, generators, water pumps and farm tractors. I've found in the US
at least that farm tractors suppliers had much cheaper part prices than
any vendor with "marine" in its name. Perhaps that's the same in your
part of the world as there were many, many thousands of these engines
built, the majority outside the marine venue.

I've had my engine out and done some serious preventative maintenance.
If I can be of any assistance please let me know. I just completed a
2,575 mile passage from Hawaii to Sitka, Alaska on my way home to
Seattle, Washington and will be here in SE Alaska for the next month or
so. I won't have Internet access everyday as we will be exploring some
remote areas but expect to be connected once a week or so. I'll be happy
to help if I can based on my 4-108 experience.

Patrick
CR38, #43
S/V Silhouette
Currently moored Sitka, Alaska
www.svsilhouette.com

[J&B]

HI again you two. 

Alan and Heather (previous owners of Brite Star) 'fully overhauled'  the original Perkins 4108 when shipped to Oz from the USA in 2007. We do not know what the hours were at this time but since the o'haul the engine has done just under 2,000 hrs, starts immediately, purrs along, has no leaks (fingers crossed) and while blowing a puff of smoke on start up uses no oil to speak of at this stage. We are unsure as to the extent of the work undertaken but I know a number of people who have these engines and swear by them given parts are reportedly readily available across the globe. Apparently Alan was considering a replacement Yanmar rather than a recondition of the Perkins and was advised to recondition in light of this. 'Touch wood' this seems to have been a good decision ...but keep in mind this was now 10 years ago and the boat has had little use over the last few years.  I know that the engine was removed from the boat, reconditioned by a marine mechanic and then reinstalled. Alan chose this opportunity to redo related electrics etc and clean up the bilge. 

kr Bill and Janne

Brite Star

[ron Gmail]

I have the original with 2k hours. Standard problems. Had the injector pump seals fail but that is not westerbeke. 

from phone, please forgive siri spelling

Ron Acierno, PhD

Professor and Associate Dean for Research
Medical University of South Carolina
College of Nursing, 
99 Jonathan Lucas St. MSC 160
Charleston SC 29425-1600

P: (843) 792-2949
F: (843) 792-6698
acierno@musc.edu
http://www.musc.edu/nursing

MUSC Nurses Change Lives!

[LDCB...@aol.com]

Dave & Terry,

 

Our boat has always been fresh water on the US/Canadian Great Lakes. The Perkins 4-108 hour meter says about 1390 Hrs. When we purchased the boat 14 years ago it had been very lightly used. We have had to rebuild the high Pressure fuel pump and have some minor oil leaks as you would expect with a Perkins. A company in Texas,Foley Marine, Sells a complete seal kit if you rebuild a Perkins that is guaranteed to fix the leaky seal issues with this engine.

[Kale Gorham]

On the subject of motors here's a few pics of going back in, the hardest part was getting motor to sit on mounts at same time. I replaced all 4 mounts so they weren't aligned just so. We took off all mount brackets for and aft on the motor, then located it in hole where it should sit and then put on the rear mounts first, and then we put front mounts on, this is the way to go didn't have to wrestle engine around, then we aligned engine to prop. All this was done by the boom and in the water. My advice to Davo is bite the bullet and rebuild its worth the peace of mind.

Sent from my iPad Kale Gorham

[Robert Benner]

Meredith had its W46 replaced at 3200 hours. 

The diesel although freshwater had sat on the hard for eight years before we bought her without ever being turned over.  That cannot have been good for the poor thing.

We experienced a trifecta of failures: oil pan gasket leak, rear engine seal and slipping transmission all at the samme time.  Based on hours it was way too early to replace the engine but the cost of repairing the old diesel (it had to be removed for the rear seal to be replaced, or so we were told) and tranny totalled almost 35% of the cost of a new Beta.  

In hindsight it was the best decision we could have made.

Bob

Meredith 1985 CR32 Hull #100

[S/V Silhouette]

It is possible to do the rear seal with the engine in the boat but I
wouldn't recommend it as it is difficult to do a good job since one is
hanging upside down making it difficult to see what's happening. It can
however be done. If I need to replace mine again I'll pull the engine
just as last time as overall it leads to better quality work. Once
you've done it it's really not that hard to get it out.

While Foley does sell a rear seal kit for something like $100 for a 6"
long piece of woven material, it is possible to get a leak free
installation with a stock new factory part. Note the the material that
the seal is made from by Perkins has changed over the years. The
original seal material was coarsely woven and prone to leaks. The new
material that one buys today, assuming the vendor does not have old
stock, is tightly woven and impregnated with a heavy waxy material. I
just followed the instructions in the maintenance manual and got a leak
free installation. The factory seal material does not need to be cut as
the Foley unit does as it is already cut to the proper length and just
drops in place in the seal housing halves. One just needs to be careful
pressing the seal halves in place.

Besides the seal itself there is another potential source of leakage
involved, that being the seal housing itself. The seal is contained in
the two housing halves and then the assembled housing is bolted to the
block. There is a gasket between the housing and block that needs
careful installation. When I disassembled mine there was a small scrap
of old gasket remaining that was the primary source leakage in that
area, not the actual seal itself. It was located directly below the
crankshaft and I suspect was left in place as the result of someone
replacing the seal with the engine in place and not being able to see
and clean that seal interface properly since the crank would have been
in their direct line of vision.

I've put 1700 hours on my engine while cruising over the last three
years and the rear seal hasn't leaked a drop. The only area I still have
a problem with is the front timing gear case cover. The cover is warped
a bit and so there is small leak that a new stock gasket did not
resolve. I'm going to remove the cover and install a new gasket this
time with industrial grade silicone gasket sealer and that should
resolve that issue. I should have done that last time but there were so
many other leaks that that one was masked and I didn't recognize it as a
source. Hindsight is great.

In extreme cases like Meredith experienced, a new engine makes sense.
However, in less extreme cases it is possible to keep these old units
running for a very long time.

Patrick
S/V Silhouette
CR38, #43
Currently moored Sitka, Alaska

[Kale Gorham]

I also agree with Patrick rear seal with motor in would be in my thoughts next to impossible, after taking out my motor and major rebuild, it's not that hard. For what it's worth I used Foley marine rear seal, it's like stuffing box packing, actually that what trans Atlantic diesel called it but I installed it anyway, my mechanic said the problem of rear seals is that the engines sit for long periods of time and dry out, then when you start the engine it pulls the seal thus creating the leak, he told me to use Lucas engine additive it's like honey when you poor it in,this coats all parts including the seals thus no dry starts. I am going to start using it on all my vehicles.

Sent from my iPad Kale Gorham

[Mickey Panayiotakis]

Has anyone tried the walker Airsep that Foley sells?

[Stan CR38 #54]

Still have the Perkins in my 1981 CR 38, This boat never had an hour meter, so I have no idea of the time on it.

the motor starts easy, runs well with no vibration. The problem, it's leaking oil.

If the engine is pulled, how much technical know how or specialized tools are required, if gasket replacement is all that is required ?

[Mickey Panayiotakis]

IMO one of the easiest engines to work on. Just keep away from the high-pressure pump and gears. Rear seal should not be a huge deal.

[Kale Gorham]

Stan you only need standard size tool my engine is 1981 hull 59 i would definitely check compression, as my engine was totally worn out i thought like you just reseal and go on my engine also ran great with no vibration yoi cant believe hour meter unless you have a great history with the boat good luck

Sent from my Boost Mobile phone.

[Alex Tarlecky]

We have an '87 with the original westerbeke (mitsubishi) engine with 3614 hours on it. It leaks oil from all the seals and now coolant. 

The coolant is on the outside and I think its just a loose hose but its hard to track down. The oil leaks are pretty small but I think I will still have the engine pulled and the seals replaced before we head off. 

Besides that, she starts up right away and runs great. 

- alex

[S/V Silhouette]

I have had the Walker Airsep for the past nearly three years. A bit
pricey but it has helped reduce my oil leaks by reducing/eliminating the
positive crankcase pressure that these engines develop as they age.
There is a trick to getting it to work properly however. Besides
following the basic installation instructions one needs to take the time
to ensure the crankcase system is air tight. By that I mean the oil fill
cap needs to fit the fill properly and have a good seal and the oil dip
stick needs a good seal where its collar fits over the dip stick tube. A
tight system is very important.

Rather than pay an outrageous amount for a new oil fill cap with a new
gasket I reworked the old one by cleaning the inside of the old seal
with acetone and then laying down a neat bead of high temp silicone
gasket maker to create a new gasket on top of the old. For the dip stick
seal I just use a wrap of butyl rubber around it. After checking the oil
I just mold the clay-like material over the joint to seal it up. Works
fine.

These items are important because the Airsep is trying to create a
negative crankcase pressure and that's what keeps all the oil in. The
importance of good sealing in these areas is not well documented in the
Airsep instructions in my opinion. There is one small note about it but
I think they should stress the issue more than they do. Once I got those
two spots sealed properly then the Airsep essentially eliminated the
oily smell in the engine space and the space stays much cleaner now.

Highly recommended and available through sources other than Foley BTW.

Patrick
S/V Silhouette
CR38, #43
Currently moored Sitka, Alaska

[S/V Silhouette]

Pretty easy to do if you've done any engine work at all. It's all
straightforward and well documented in the Perkins manual. Take your
time and pay attention to the details and you'll have no problems.

A couple of points regarding the pan gasket... It is comprised of
several different pieces and they can be tricky to get in place with the
engine in its upright position so care is needed. The ideal installation
technique would be to have the engine on an engine stand, available from
rental shops, and rotate it so it was upside down and gravity would be
on your side. I did mine on the boat so that wasn't an option. Instead I
used a high tack gasket sealer and carefully glued the gaskets in place
then raised the pan to the block. Works fine if one is careful.

Also, I took pains to ensure that I didn't set the engine down on the
pan/sump after installing the new gasket because by doing so you crush
the new gasket with the weight of the engine and ruin the nice torque
job you just did installing the pan. I did mine in the cockpit and held
the engine aloft using the boom to install the pan. I then temporarily
mounted the engine mount plates and mounts and set the engine on its
mounts with some 2X4 blocks under them to protect the pan gasket from
damage until I lifted it for the reinstall. I moved the engine over to
the companionway with the mounts in place then removed them to get
through the opening. Once it was down inside the boat I bolted them back
on. A small point perhaps but I have no pan leaks now.

The rear seal is pretty easy just make sure all the parts are clean
especially the housing to block gasket area. The front seal is easy but
as noted the timing gear case covers have a tendency to warp so extra
attention is needed to that gasket installation. I would recommended you
consider using a silicone gasket maker if you have any leaks there now.

If you have any questions let me know.

Patrick
S/V Silhouette
CR38, #43
Currently moored Sitka, Alaska

[Cab...@aol.com]

1979 Perkins, about 4000 hours. The rocker cover gasket leaks some, as does the front seal. I normally have to add a quart or two a year. I need to pull the engine next year more to reseal the fuel tank than anything. I guess I will replace the gaskets, cover, seals, and do a top end on it.

 

[Stan CR38 #54]

Some great information, thanks everyone.

Patrick, It never crossed my mind that a job like that could be done in the cockpit, you have my utmost respect.

Also, thanks for your insight and detailed description of your work.

[S/V Silhouette]

Stan,

Thank you. I'm not the first to do such work in the cockpit as many
long-haul sailors have done complete engine rebuilds in that venue. I
seem to recall pictures of Hal and Margaret Roth with an engine sitting
on the cockpit seats in some far off port. You do what you need to do
wherever you are. In my case I had more time than money and since I was
doing a "mini-overhaul", just gaskets and hoses while I had the engine
out to get to the leaking bilge fuel tank, it all worked out fine. If I
was doing a total rebuild I would certainly seek a warm dry garage for
the effort if one was available.

I've owned boats for more than 35 years now and have found that it's the
little things that are overlooked or ignored that come back to bight you
in the dark of the night when the winds are howling and the seas are
growing large. Whoever wrote that "The spirit of a thing lives in the
details", Exupery perhaps, was right.

Thanks again.

Patrick
S/V Silhouette
CR38, #43
Currently moored Sitka, Alaska

[davo]

Thanks everyone for your responses.  This group is full of very helpful people. 

It looks like most people stay with the old engines if they can but don't mess about when they've had enough :-)

I've taken most of the parts off the starboard side now and it looks like the major problem is a damaged oil cooler.  To change the oil filter, I've had to prise up the oil cooler (which rests on the filter housing and filter) or it's impossible to spin the filter off and the new one on.  It looks like the last time I changed it I damaged a brazed joint on the cooler.  I also found a blanking plate that was a bit loose which was also contributing to the leak I think.

I had a mechanic look at it then engine and he said that it sounds fine with nothing to suggest it's failing so I'll stick with it a bit longer I think.

I'll get the oil cooler brazed up again and install a remote oil filter extension I think.  That should get me by for a few years.  But I'll monitor the oil leak more carefully with oil soaker pads under the engine from now on as I really don't want to be pumping oil out onto the reef when I get up north.

Apart from all that, the weld I had done on the exhaust manifold in Pittwater last year (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/caborico/stuck$20in$20pittwater/caborico/FWW6WeXaUCc/ZyKUXHcd9aMJ)  has failed again so I'm getting that welded up again <sigh />. Anyone know of good 1980s WB46 exhaust manifold going cheap?

Thanks again folks.

[S/V Corsair]

I have Hull #31 1980 CR38.  It has the original Perkins 4-108 with 1693 hours.  It runs like a champ but unfortunately also leaks oil like a sieve from the main seal. As I am currently only sailing on the Chesapeake Bay its fine but before we cast off for more distant shores I am probably going to have to make a change.  Seems a shame …..she runs soooooo smooth!