hatch replacement

[Mickey Panayiotakis]

howdy folks 

Did one of you replace yoru old wooden hatches with alloy/stainless ones? I seem to remember someone mention this.  I'm thikning about doing this one hatch at a time over the winter.  Any info? How well did replacement hatches fit? Whom did you use? do off-the-shelf models work or do I need custom hatches?

Y

[Cab...@aol.com]

I have replaced the forward hatch, the main hatch and have the ss hatch to replace the hatch over the quarter berth. I got the hatches from a outfit called Manship?? I think, I placed the order at the Annapolis boat show. They were custom made. I had to do a fair amount of reworking with fiberglass to get the openings to match the hatches. I have done one hatch each winter. This is a time consuming project. If you want to do it let me know I'll post pictures and give as detailed info as I can remember. If you go to our sail club web site you may be able to find a picture of my boat and get an idea of how they look. www.longbaysailing.com. 

 

Breck Caine CR 38 #19

 

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[Mickey Panayiotakis]

Drats.  Custom made hatches _and_ a ton of fiberglass work? that sounsd like a pain. Maybe I'll keep mine and put a full square of lexan on top like the in-between boats have.

Y

[Cab...@aol.com]

I just could not stand the wood ones anymore. I do not remember them being that expensive, but lots of work. Did you take a look at the web site?

 

Breck Caine CR 38 #19

 

[Mickey Panayiotakis]

\

I did not find any pics of you on the longbaysailing site (though I must admit I did not fine-tooth-comb it).  I did find this site:

http://www.manshipmarine.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=13&Itemid=44

I'll keep it in mind when I also get tired of the wood ones :)

Y

[Patrick]

Breck,

 

If you please, what were the major problems with your wooden framed hatches? What did you do to try and resolve the issues before deciding to make the move the the more modern alternative and why do you think they were basically unworkable?

 

Thanks for your time and response.

 

Patrick

CR38, #43, Silhouette

---

From: cabo...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cabo...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Cab...@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2010 7:44 PM
To: cabo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [caborico] hatch replacement

[ldcbarker]

Patrick,

This is Larry Barker not Breck. We had issues with the weight and the friction style arms. My wife was not tall enough to operate the center hatch. Rather than replacing them we just removed the old hardware and attached gas lifting arms. Worked like a charm. Just bought the ones from an automotive supply. Darlene then made a lanyard and attached it fore and aft in the underside of the hatch to make it easy to grab and close.  We don't even think about the old heavy hatches any more. We chose the cheaper gas lifter since we boat on the Great Lakes. You can also find them in stainless steel. This was considerably cheaper than new hatches.

 

Larry Barker

Venteux

[Cab...@aol.com]

Yes, those are the ones I am using. I got them through Marine Depot, they had the best price at the time.

 

Breck Caine CR 38 #19

 

In a message dated 9/22/2010 10:51:20 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, svb...@gmail.com writes:

\

I did not find any pics of you on the longbaysailing site (though I must admit I did not fine-tooth-comb it).  I did find this site:

http://www.manshipmarine.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=13&Itemid=44

I'll keep it in mind when I also get tired of the wood ones :)

Y

On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 10:44 PM, <Cab...@aol.com> wrote:

[Bill Jones]

I would be interested in purchasing some of the wood hatch hardware from anyone here replacing their wood hatches.

Bill

 

 

 

Bill Jones                                            

DRE  01213909

Mobile: (408) 234-4725                                       
Email: bi...@billejones.com

www.societarealtors.com

 

Check Out The Societa University HERE For The Latest Buyer and Seller Insider Info

 

  

---

From: cabo...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cabo...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Cab...@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 6:43 AM
To: cabo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [caborico] hatch replacement

 

Yes, those are the ones I am using. I got them through Marine Depot, they had the best price at the time.

[Cab...@aol.com]

The wood ones were leaking and rotting, 1979 boat. The forward hatch had been replaced, before I got the boat, with a poorly made wood one. I took a rather large wave one day and it pooped open. When I installed the new forward hatch it is installed what most people would call backwards, i.e., it opens from the back of the hatch. I installed the salon hatch the same way. The quarter berth hatch will open from the front. Next year I'll put a new hatch on the rear of the boat also. I think they look a lot better too. Lets lots more light in.

Breck Caine CR 38 #19

 

In a message dated 9/22/2010 10:52:06 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, pat...@dayshaw.net writes:

Breck,

 

If you please, what were the major problems with your wooden framed hatches? What did you do to try and resolve the issues before deciding to make the move the the more modern alternative and why do you think they were basically unworkable?

 

Thanks for your time and response.

 

Patrick

CR38, #43, Silhouette

From: cabo...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cabo...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Cab...@aol.com

Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2010 7:44 PM

To: cabo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [caborico] hatch replacement

[alangluyas]

Hi all,

 

I looked at replacing Brite Star's teak hatches a while ago and I may have mentioned it on the net. I foresaw the problem that Breck has mentioned on having to butcher the glass deck to get a flat mounting ( I can get stock hatches here very close to the opening size on the CR38 hatches). I decided I would not look at the job unless I was planning on a complete respray of the hull and decks.

 

Patrick - the four big problems with teak hatches are (1) they leak, (2) they require never ending maintenance, (3) they leak and (4) they require never ending maintenance. I have never had to worry about either on the boats I have had with flush alloy hatches.

 

I have got the full acrylic tops on Brite Star's hatches and I stripped two down last year for a re-finish. I took the acrylic off both of them ( and broke one bit getting it off). I re-finished the teak in 6 coats of two pack urethane - they looked great for a few months but the differential movement of the acrylic and teak has caused the joints in the teak to move and I am already seeing failure of the coating. :-(

 

The stainless hatches look good - I might investigate.

 

Cheers

 

Al

 

"Brite Star" Cabo Rico 38 #82

Mandurah Western Australia

---

From: cabo...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cabo...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Patrick
Sent: Thursday, 23 September 2010 10:52 AM
To: cabo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [caborico] hatch replacement

[Mickey Panayiotakis]

Hrm

I see where the grinding woudl be necessary.  Woudl it be possible to get stainless steel hatches…but the tops only, so they sit on top of the fiberglass lip, rather than the lip on the  stainless steel  base? So basically make a steel/alloy frame to replace the wood, with acrylic on top?

Y

[Bill Jones]

I am going to try one last attempt at solving the teak hatch problem of leaks.  I am replacing the plexiglass with tempered glass and using a product from a glass company that remains resilient.  I am actually taking all hatches to the glass company and they are going to set each piece for me.  They claim that the product they are going to use is compatible with the teak and glass.  We shall see.  My teak is still in great shape and I love the original look.  It goes well with the teak decks which I still have.  I have hull #2.  I must admit however every time my teak deck turns black, which is often,  I threaten to rip it all out and do a profession non skid job in its stead.

Bill

 

 

 

Bill Jones                                            

DRE  01213909

Mobile: (408) 234-4725                                       
Email: bi...@billejones.com

www.societarealtors.com

 

Check Out The Societa University HERE For The Latest Buyer and Seller Insider Info

 

  

[Cab...@aol.com]

What do you need? I was planning on dropping off a bunch of stuff at Bacons including my old portlights.

 

Breck Caine CR 38 #19

 

In a message dated 9/23/2010 9:49:39 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, bi...@billejones.com writes:

I would be interested in purchasing some of the wood hatch hardware from anyone here replacing their wood hatches.

Bill

 

 

 

Bill Jones                                            

DRE  01213909

Mobile: (408) 234-4725                                       
Email: bi...@billejones.com

www.societarealtors.com

 

Check Out The Societa University HERE For The Latest Buyer and Seller Insider Info

 

  

From: cabo...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cabo...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Cab...@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 6:43 AM
To: cabo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [caborico] hatch replacement

 

Yes, those are the ones I am using. I got them through Marine Depot, they had the best price at the time.

 

Breck Caine CR 38 #19

 

In a message dated 9/22/2010 10:51:20 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, svb...@gmail.com writes:

\

I did not find any pics of you on the longbaysailing site (though I must admit I did not fine-tooth-comb it).  I did find this site:

http://www.manshipmarine.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=13&Itemid=44

 

I'll keep it in mind when I also get tired of the wood ones :)

Y

[Bill Jones]

I need a little bit of everything.  I will take inventory in a few days if you can wait that long.  I am happy to pay for everything.

Thanks,

[Cab...@aol.com]

I thought of building up the lip, someone else did it that way. The hatch sat up very high, I felt the way I did it looked better and was safer. I used a sawzall and grinding to cut the lip away, being careful no to mess up the flat part, the inside wood trim has to be removed. The gunk behind it cleaned out. Glass needs to be built up to match the inside of the hatch frame. I used several different sanders to even things out. To get the top where the new hatch will fit flat, I used a 2x4 with sand paper attached. You can only build up so much of the fiberglass per day. It took I think 6 or 7 days, two hours a day to build up the glass. It took a day to get the lip cut off, the wood trim removed, the gunk behind the trim cleaned out and have it ready to start glassing.  Sanding took two or three 4 hour days. Setting the hatch, drilling holes, putting down butyl, bolting in and touch up painting took a day. The opening where the hatch sits is much stronger than it was, lots of glass.

 

Breck Caine CR 38 #19

 

In a message dated 9/23/2010 10:06:37 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, svb...@gmail.com writes:

Hrm

I see where the grinding woudl be necessary.  Woudl it be possible to get stainless steel hatches…but the tops only, so they sit on top of the fiberglass lip, rather than the lip on the  stainless steel  base? So basically make a steel/alloy frame to replace the wood, with acrylic on top?

Y

On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 9:58 AM, alangluyas <alang...@iinet.net.au> wrote:

Hi all,

 

I looked at replacing Brite Star's teak hatches a while ago and I may have mentioned it on the net. I foresaw the problem that Breck has mentioned on having to butcher the glass deck to get a flat mounting ( I can get stock hatches here very close to the opening size on the CR38 hatches). I decided I would not look at the job unless I was planning on a complete respray of the hull and decks.

 

Patrick - the four big problems with teak hatches are (1) they leak, (2) they require never ending maintenance, (3) they leak and (4) they require never ending maintenance. I have never had to worry about either on the boats I have had with flush alloy hatches.

 

I have got the full acrylic tops on Brite Star's hatches and I stripped two down last year for a re-finish. I took the acrylic off both of them ( and broke one bit getting it off). I re-finished the teak in 6 coats of two pack urethane - they looked great for a few months but the differential movement of the acrylic and teak has caused the joints in the teak to move and I am already seeing failure of the coating. :-(

 

The stainless hatches look good - I might investigate.

 

Cheers

 

Al

 

"Brite Star" Cabo Rico 38 #82

Mandurah Western Australia

From: cabo...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cabo...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Patrick
Sent: Thursday, 23 September 2010 10:52 AM
To: cabo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [caborico] hatch replacement

Breck,

 

If you please, what were the major problems with your wooden framed hatches? What did you do to try and resolve the issues before deciding to make the move the the more modern alternative and why do you think they were basically unworkable?

 

Thanks for your time and response.

 

Patrick

CR38, #43, Silhouette

From: cabo...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cabo...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Cab...@aol.com

Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2010 7:44 PM

To: cabo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [caborico] hatch replacement

[alangluyas]

Hi Mickey

 

That is not a bad idea - I did consider it briefly but must have dropped the idea - not sure why as it seems a pretty reasonable idea now! The alloy frames would probably have to have external hinges, which would need to be blocked up off the deck and some clever catch system but it woud not need to very sophisticated to improve on the original.

 

I can't see any insurmountable problems with either making or getting made some alloy frames with seal faces that will mate with the lip on the Cabo Rico hatch upstands. I will make some precise measurements over the weekend and draw it up in section. I would imagine the custom hatch builders would be happy to quote on that, given the potential owner interest in replacing the teak hatches. On Brite Star, the hatch over the "nav station" anf the the forehatch are the same size (rectangular) and the hatch aft of the mast is square.

 

If I could just bolt on alloy frames I would do it in a flash.

 

For the record, I think the sealing problems on the teak hatches have to do with the inherrent instabilty of wood in a wet/dry environment, even wood as stable as teak. It is a real problem trying to get even consistent compression on the seals with the teak hatches. I have got two sets of neoprene foam seals on Brite Star's hatches and with solid water over the deck they still leak to some degree. If I expect to get pounded by big waves I use vinyl duct tape around the hatches before I set off. It is too late when the deck gets wet.

 

I have also got some leakage from the caprail somewhere ( probably chain plates or fairleads), but this is only a dribble. (Better bring a dry bag)

 

Cheers

 

Al

 

"Brite Star" Cabo Rico 38 #82

Mandurah Western Australia

 

---

From: cabo...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cabo...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Mickey Panayiotakis
Sent: Thursday, 23 September 2010 10:06 PM

[alangluyas]

Breck, I am impressed by the work you have put in and depressed by the idea of having to do it myself. I would love to see pictures. Thanks for the comprehensive input.

 

Cheers

 

Al

"Brite Star" Cabo Rico 38 #82

Mandurah Western Australia

---

From: cabo...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cabo...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Cab...@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, 23 September 2010 10:41 PM

[Cab...@aol.com]

I'll be heading up to the boat show Saturday after next. The glass company will probably bed the glass in butyl. I learned the hard way 5200 will not bed to acrylic. 

 

Breck Caine CR 38 #19

 

In a message dated 9/23/2010 10:17:43 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, bi...@billejones.com writes:

I need a little bit of everything.  I will take inventory in a few days if you can wait that long.  I am happy to pay for everything.

Thanks,

Bill

 

 

 

Bill Jones                                            

DRE  01213909

Mobile: (408) 234-4725                                       
Email: bi...@billejones.com

www.societarealtors.com

 

Check Out The Societa University HERE For The Latest Buyer and Seller Insider Info

 

  

---

From: cabo...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cabo...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Cab...@aol.com

Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 7:13 AM

To: cabo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [caborico] hatch replacement

 

What do you need? I was planning on dropping off a bunch of stuff at Bacons including my old portlights.

 

Breck Caine CR 38 #19

 

In a message dated 9/23/2010 9:49:39 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, bi...@billejones.com writes:

I would be interested in purchasing some of the wood hatch hardware from anyone here replacing their wood hatches.

Bill

 

 

 

Bill Jones                                            

DRE  01213909

Mobile: (408) 234-4725                                       
Email: bi...@billejones.com

www.societarealtors.com

 

Check Out The Societa University HERE For The Latest Buyer and Seller Insider Info

 

  

---

From: cabo...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cabo...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Cab...@aol.com

Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 6:43 AM

To: cabo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [caborico] hatch replacement

 

Yes, those are the ones I am using. I got them through Marine Depot, they had the best price at the time.

 

Breck Caine CR 38 #19

 

In a message dated 9/22/2010 10:51:20 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, svb...@gmail.com writes:

\

I did not find any pics of you on the longbaysailing site (though I must admit I did not fine-tooth-comb it).  I did find this site:

http://www.manshipmarine.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=13&Itemid=44

 

I'll keep it in mind when I also get tired of the wood ones :)

Y

[Patrick]

Breck et al,

 

Thanks for all your comments.

 

The leak problem I've already experienced, at least leaking through the joints of the frame as the frames are coming apart due to glue line failure. However, I haven't yet seen leakage past the gasket material even on my trip up the coast. I was surprised to hear about the hatch popping open. The hardware on mine allows one to dog the hatch down pretty tightly so perhaps they changed the type of hardware used. At the moment, given all the other stuff I need to do on this boat, the budget won't support replacing them so I'll just have to deal with the "never ending maintenance" for now.

 

We just finished removing the teak decks, repairing the underlying glass, painting the cabin top and sides, and applying new non-skid to the cabin top. I don't have non-skid on the repaired decks as yet because our summer ended here a month ago and the rains have arrived. That will have to wait until Spring unless the weather changes. We've re-bedded every piece of hardware on the cabin top so now I'm working the hatch problems before winter sets in completely.

 

I have already rebuilt one hatch, the center one aft of the mast, and need to rebuild the other two as well. The first one was easy. Once I removed the old scratched plastic I was able to reverse the heads of two bar clamps and just push it apart. I rebuilt the frame using epoxy. I cut the new plastic so it goes within an inch or so of the outer edge of the frame. I then drilled oversized holes for the fasteners to allow for the movement. I bedded the new plastic with Dow Corning 795  silicone sealant. This stuff is used in the building trades to install some pretty big windows of all types and I've used it before on a large hatch in the sterncastle of a trimaran with good results. Hopefully the rebuild of the other units will also go well.

 

 

Thanks again for all the comments and ideas.

 

 

Patrick

CR38, #43, Silhouette

 

---

From: cabo...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cabo...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Cab...@aol.com

Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 7:41 AM

To: cabo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [caborico] hatch replacement

[Patrick]

Larry,

 

Thanks for your comments. The bronze sliding hardware is a problem for me as well. My lady and I have no problem reaching the hatches nor mechanisms but it certainly is awkward to manage at times. I'll take a look at the gas cylinder approach.

 

 

Patrick

CR38, #43, Silhouette

---

From: cabo...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cabo...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of ldcbarker
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 5:34 AM

To: cabo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [caborico] hatch replacement

[Charlie Purdum]

Patrick & Others-

Reading the email trail below reminded me about our next big project. Our decks have significant crazing (no leaks though) and are going to be awlgripped over the winter. For those of you who have removed your teak decks and replaced with non-skid, what system/method did you use? We're considering the Gibcoflex system but it looks expensive. We don't like the Awlgrip solution of plastic beads in the material due to concerns about keeping clean and skinned body parts.

Thanks for any and all input!

Charlie Purdum

Arriba - Cabo Rico 34-033

Stonington, CT

email:  charle...@comcast.net

[Mickey Panayiotakis]

A few of us have done this job. The removal is brute force and chemicals.  I'll assume you mean what system we used for painting, though.  I used roll-and-tip.  I sanded, cleaned, primed, etc.  Rolled-and-tipped the shiny areas. Then taped off with fine-line tape and used the "roll and shake" method: I punched a few holes on the top of the can of nonskid particles, rolled the paint, and sprinkled on desired nonskid while the paint was wet.  When paint dried, I blew/swept/vacuumed unstuck nonskid (can be saved and reused) and continued with roller alone. THis is the method you don't like :)

The problem I have after 4-5 years or so is that the "tips" of the non-skid are starting to wear off.  haven't had much issue with skinned body parts. If you're around Annapolis you can come by and see :)

mickey

[ldcbarker]

Patrick,

We have had them installed for a number of years. Maybe 5. We got them at NAPA. Measured the open length and purchased the recommended unit. for the price difference of the stainless ones we figured we could replace the standard auto parts store ones several times.

 

Larry

--

[Patrick]

Charlie,

 

Getting the teak off was a miserable job. Some people recommend that you just use a crow bar and rip it up without pulling the screws. We tested that method but didn't like it. We found pulling the screws wasn't that hard once we got our technique down. We used an old fashioned brace and bit with a screwdriver tip that I carefully ground to fit the screws exactly. This tool allowed us to get lots of pressure and keep the tip in the slot with more than enough leverage.  We plunge cut through the teak every couple of feet with a small trim saw and/or Multi-Master blade just short of the fiberglass and then used broad chisels to pry it up the short lengths with very little damage to the underlying fiberglass. Having tried both methods we felt this was easier than the brute force approach. YMMV.

 

For the non-skid I used a technique that's documented on the West System Web site in the second part of a two-part article about re-coring and then refinishing a fiberglass deck. The article title is "Creating a non-skid deck" and the HTML version can be found here: http://www.westsystem.com/ss/creating-a-non-skid-deck/ There is a link to a PDF version on that page as well.

 

Basically, one mixes colloidal silica with two part paint until it has a constancy somewhere between mayonnaise and dry wall mud. In our case we laid down a coat of color first, then rolled out the non-skid and finally over coated that with a heavily thinned layer of the topcoat color to even out the coloration. The surface texture can be controlled by how thick you mix the paint and also how you roll it out. I mixed a small batch and tested the technique first on a scrap before I went for it. The surface in my case is rather aggressive but without having deep craters to trap dirt. Aggressive is the way I wanted it. On my boat the cabin top didn't have non-skid applied in many areas that I thought it should should. Prior owners apparently felt the same way since they had added stick-on strips in many places. I removed all of them and replaced it with this stuff. The original non-skid looked to be tinted gel coat rolled on. I knocked that down a bit using a 36 grit disk but didn't take it all off. One can't tell where the old stuff was or wasn't as it didn't telegraph through.

 

It looks very good and we've had numerous people come by to look at it once a couple of my neighbors saw it and spread the word. I suspect next summer there will be a few more boats here in Eagle Harbor sporting non-skid done this way based on the comments we are hearing. On my old boat I had tried several other methods including the plastic beads and this is by far the best job I've been able to produce. Obviously others are more capable with the bead approach than I was.

 

BTW, when I mixed the paint I used the brushing converter and also added the flattening agent to knock down the shine quite a bit. I spread the mixture with a plastic notched spreader and then used a small diameter solvent resistant roller to roll out the texture. I used Awlgrip for the paint so I expect it should last a long time given how hard Awlgrip is once cured. Note that this approach is similar to the KiwiGrip stuff and the consistency I mixed was close to what comes out of their can.

 

If you have any questions let me know.

 

Patrick

CR38, #43, Silhouette

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From: cabo...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cabo...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Charlie Purdum
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 9:20 AM
To: cabo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [caborico] Non-skid - was hatch replacement

[Cab...@aol.com]

The worst part is the glassing, because you have to do it for days. I'll send some pictures of the finish, I had taken pictures as I was doing it but have no idea where they are.

 

Breck Caine CR 38 #19

 

In a message dated 9/23/2010 11:04:47 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, alang...@iinet.net.au writes:

Breck, I am impressed by the work you have put in and depressed by the idea of having to do it myself. I would love to see pictures. Thanks for the comprehensive input.

 

Cheers

 

Al

"Brite Star" Cabo Rico 38 #82

Mandurah Western Australia

---

From: cabo...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cabo...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Cab...@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, 23 September 2010 10:41 PM

Hrm

From: cabo...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cabo...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Cab...@aol.com

Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2010 7:44 PM

To: cabo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [caborico] hatch replacement

I just could not stand the wood ones anymore. I do not remember them being that expensive, but lots of work. Did you take a look at the web site?

 

Breck Caine CR 38 #19

 

In a message dated 9/22/2010 10:12:02 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, svb...@gmail.com writes:

Drats.  Custom made hatches _and_ a ton of fiberglass work? that sounsd like a pain. Maybe I'll keep mine and put a full square of lexan on top like the in-between boats have.

Y

On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 4:19 PM, <Cab...@aol.com> wrote:

I have replaced the forward hatch, the main hatch and have the ss hatch to replace the hatch over the quarter berth. I got the hatches from a outfit called Manship?? I think, I placed the order at the Annapolis boat show. They were custom made. I had to do a fair amount of reworking with fiberglass to get the openings to match the hatches. I have done one hatch each winter. This is a time consuming project. If you want to do it let me know I'll post pictures and give as detailed info as I can remember. If you go to our sail club web site you may be able to find a picture of my boat and get an idea of how they look. www.longbaysailing.com. 

 

Breck Caine CR 38 #19

 

In a message dated 9/22/2010 1:08:49 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, svb...@gmail.com writes:

howdy folks 

Did one of you replace yoru old wooden hatches with alloy/stainless ones? I seem to remember someone mention this.  I'm thikning about doing this one hatch at a time over the winter.  Any info? How well did replacement hatches fit? Whom did you use? do off-the-shelf models work or do I need custom hatches?

Y

--

[Cab...@aol.com]

I think it popped open because the design was changed and the part that held the long latch down was shimmed out. It looked like the screws were to short and pulled out.

 

Breck Caine CR 38 #19  PS To help keep them from leaking, I put a piece of plastic under the Sunbrealla cover I had on the hatches.

 

In a message dated 9/23/2010 11:54:19 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, pat...@dayshaw.net writes:

Breck et al,

 

Thanks for all your comments.

 

The leak problem I've already experienced, at least leaking through the joints of the frame as the frames are coming apart due to glue line failure. However, I haven't yet seen leakage past the gasket material even on my trip up the coast. I was surprised to hear about the hatch popping open. The hardware on mine allows one to dog the hatch down pretty tightly so perhaps they changed the type of hardware used. At the moment, given all the other stuff I need to do on this boat, the budget won't support replacing them so I'll just have to deal with the "never ending maintenance" for now.

 

We just finished removing the teak decks, repairing the underlying glass, painting the cabin top and sides, and applying new non-skid to the cabin top. I don't have non-skid on the repaired decks as yet because our summer ended here a month ago and the rains have arrived. That will have to wait until Spring unless the weather changes. We've re-bedded every piece of hardware on the cabin top so now I'm working the hatch problems before winter sets in completely.

 

I have already rebuilt one hatch, the center one aft of the mast, and need to rebuild the other two as well. The first one was easy. Once I removed the old scratched plastic I was able to reverse the heads of two bar clamps and just push it apart. I rebuilt the frame using epoxy. I cut the new plastic so it goes within an inch or so of the outer edge of the frame. I then drilled oversized holes for the fasteners to allow for the movement. I bedded the new plastic with Dow Corning 795  silicone sealant. This stuff is used in the building trades to install some pretty big windows of all types and I've used it before on a large hatch in the sterncastle of a trimaran with good results. Hopefully the rebuild of the other units will also go well.

 

 

Thanks again for all the comments and ideas.

 

 

Patrick

CR38, #43, Silhouette

 

---

From: cabo...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cabo...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Cab...@aol.com

Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 7:41 AM

[Cab...@aol.com]

I mixed stuff in with gel coat and brushed it on. Seems ok after 13 years.

 

Breck Caine CR 38 #19

 

In a message dated 9/23/2010 12:40:25 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, svb...@gmail.com writes:

A few of us have done this job. The removal is brute force and chemicals.  I'll assume you mean what system we used for painting, though.  I used roll-and-tip.  I sanded, cleaned, primed, etc.  Rolled-and-tipped the shiny areas. Then taped off with fine-line tape and used the "roll and shake" method: I punched a few holes on the top of the can of nonskid particles, rolled the paint, and sprinkled on desired nonskid while the paint was wet.  When paint dried, I blew/swept/vacuumed unstuck nonskid (can be saved and reused) and continued with roller alone. THis is the method you don't like :)

The problem I have after 4-5 years or so is that the "tips" of the non-skid are starting to wear off.  haven't had much issue with skinned body parts. If you're around Annapolis you can come by and see :)

mickey

On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 12:20 PM, Charlie Purdum <charle...@comcast.net> wrote:

Patrick & Others-

Reading the email trail below reminded me about our next big project. Our decks have significant crazing (no leaks though) and are going to be awlgripped over the winter. For those of you who have removed your teak decks and replaced with non-skid, what system/method did you use? We're considering the Gibcoflex system but it looks expensive. We don't like the Awlgrip solution of plastic beads in the material due to concerns about keeping clean and skinned body parts.

Thanks for any and all input!

Charlie Purdum

Arriba - Cabo Rico 34-033

Stonington, CT

email:  charle...@comcast.net

On Sep 23, 2010, at 11:54 AM, Patrick wrote:

[Mickey Panayiotakis]

Alan,

If you get some measurements and find an outfit to make some covers I'd be game for a set.  My hatches are same as yours. If you send me your drawings, I'll shop around custom hatch makers statesides.

I'll bring a drybag (if I remember)…thanks for the heads up :)  I'm calculating 2k for flights. Might do a drive trip across from Sydney; still in negotiations for this.  But I might just keep it simple.

Y

[norskm...@aol.com]

Hey Guys,

 

I was at a lecture by the Pardays and I asked Larry what he suggested.  Larry said that he used the seal material that is used on refergerator doors.  I'm into heavy thinking how to marry up the seal material and the hatches. 

 

I like the look of wood hatches and I am rebuilding my wooden hatches and installing 3/8" plexi-glass.  I was told by the plastic pro's that plex-glass would last longer than lexan.

 

Just something else to chew on.

 

John

 

Cabo Rico 38 - #24

[Patrick]

John,

 

I'm using 1/2" acrylic just because that's what was on the old units. I'm sure 3/8 would be adequate. I used polycarbonate on several hatches on another boat and it crazed quickly and scratched much more easily. These folks, who rebuild hatches and portlights for a living, present a pretty convincing case for the use of acrylic (Plexiglas) over polycarbonate (Lexan). http://www.selectplastics.com/index.php/blogs/tonyd/acrylic-vs-polycarbonate.html

 

As I mentioned in another post my hatch leaks are all where the wooden frames are coming apart and to some extent under the plastic to wood interface not through the gaskets. The prior owner of this boat installed two layers of what appears to be closed cell foam gasket material. One layer is installed on the vertical inside surface of the frame. It is rather soft and it butts tightly up against another layer that is glued to the horizontal overhead portion of the frame and mates with the top edge of the combing. That material is a bit denser. One needs to pull the hatch down to compress all of this material. There is a brass handle bolted to the center stile to facilitate that. The one hatch I've already rebuilt is ready to have the gaskets installed and I'm about to basically replicate the prior installation since it seemed to work well when I brought the boat up the coast and had a fair amount of water on deck on several occasions.

 

An interesting note on this topic appears in Beth Leonard's book, "The Voyager's Handbook", 2nd edition, she writes:

 

"Many older fiberglass boats have original hatches made from wood and fiberglass, these tend to be a primary source of leaks. The best alternative may be to replace these with new, high-quality aluminum or stainless steel hatches, available from several manufacturers. If you cannot afford to do that, or if the aesthetics of your boat depend upon the old style hatches, several modifications can reduce leaking substantially.

 

These older hatches tend to leak along the coaming lip even when the hatch is well dogged. To fix this problem, replace the gasket material with 10-12 pound hollow neoprene, such as 3M's professional-quality neoprene weather stripping. Add a second gasket along the top edge of the hatch coaming. Though you may have to have someone stand on the hatch to dog it, once dogged the seal should be water tight. High-quality weather stripping can also be used to keep water out of cockpit lockers and eliminate leaks through companionway hatches."

 

While I'd prefer new, modern hatches, I need to use the ones I've got.

 

Patrick

CR38, #43, Silhouette

 

---

From: cabo...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cabo...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of norskm...@aol.com
Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 8:53 AM

To: cabo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [caborico] hatch replacement

[Mickey Panayiotakis]

yea, neoprene weather/water -proofing is neat.  I wish my portholes had it.  Anyone know a good source?

[Patrick]

Do you have the old style Perko portlights? If so perhaps you can find what you need here:

 

http://www.lewismarine.com/show_catalogpage.php?Book=Base&Year=2009&Page=252

 

I'm in the process of rebuilding all of mine. I had leaks primarily in two places; 1) under the outer trim ring between the cabin side and the port body and 2) between the glass and frames. The exterior problem was resolved without pulling the ports by using butyl bedding under the trim rings after I painted the cabin sides. Worked like a champ. The glass to frame leaks I'm dealing with by rebedding the glass in their frames using Dow 795 sealant. That repair has worked great and I now have all the port side completed. The gaskets are for the most part OK but I did have a few small leaks. The problem with the gasket interface was I ran out of threads on the dogs and the wing nuts bottomed out without making a good seal on the old gaskets. As a temporary fix, I added a couple of washers to each dog bolt and gained enough extra travel to compress the old gasket material. When I start on the starboard lights I'll pull the gasket material out of one of each style and see what sizes I have. There are at least two different sizes on my boat between the rectangular ports and the round ones. I haven't order from these people as yet but stumbled on the source. Perhaps it can help you.

 

Patrick

CR38, #43, Silhouette

---

From: cabo...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cabo...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Mickey Panayiotakis
Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 11:10 AM

To: cabo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [caborico] hatch replacement

[Mickey Panayiotakis]

Thnaks, Patrick.  I'm inclined not to order from that site based on the annoying copyright alert box alone.  I do see that they cary the perko "Y" weatherstripping.  I still have a few feet of that left from when I ordered it last time.  However, it didn't keep more than 3 years or so last time I used it, so I'm disinclined to use it again.  Square neoprene may be next thing to try, if I can find it. 

If I remember correctly, the perko Y gasket fit both sizes of portlights.

Any insight on your choice of  750 to bed the glass instead of butyl ?

mickey

[Cab...@aol.com]

I found that Lexan becomes clouded way before other acrylics.

 

Breck Caine CR 38 #19

 

In a message dated 9/24/2010 11:53:48 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, norskm...@aol.com writes:

Hey Guys,

 

I was at a lecture by the Pardays and I asked Larry what he suggested.  Larry said that he used the seal material that is used on refergerator doors.  I'm into heavy thinking how to marry up the seal material and the hatches. 

 

I like the look of wood hatches and I am rebuilding my wooden hatches and installing 3/8" plexi-glass.  I was told by the plastic pro's that plex-glass would last longer than lexan.

 

Just something else to chew on.

 

John

 

Cabo Rico 38 - #24

-----Original Message-----
From: alangluyas <alang...@iinet.net.au>
To: cabo...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, Sep 23, 2010 9:43 am
Subject: RE: [caborico] hatch replacement

Hi Mickey

 

That is not a bad idea - I did consider it briefly but must have dropped the idea - not sure why as it seems a pretty reasonable idea now! The alloy frames would probably have to have external hinges, which would need to be blocked up off the deck and some clever catch system but it woud not need to very sophisticated to improve on the original.

 

I can't see any insurmountable problems with either making or getting made some alloy frames with seal faces that will mate with the lip on the Cabo Rico hatch upstands. I will make some precise measurements over the weekend and draw it up in section. I would imagine the custom hatch builders would be happy to quote on that, given the potential owner interest in replacing the teak hatches. On Brite Star, the hatch over the "nav station" anf the the forehatch are the same size (rectangular) and the hatch aft of the mast is square.

 

If I could just bolt on alloy frames I would do it in a flash.

 

For the record, I think the sealing problems on the teak hatches have to do with the inherrent instabilty of wood in a wet/dry environment, even wood as stable as teak. It is a real problem trying to get even consistent compression on the seals with the teak hatches. I have got two sets of neoprene foam seals on Brite Star's hatches and with solid water over the deck they still leak to some degree. If I expect to get pounded by big waves I use vinyl duct tape around the hatches before I set off. It is too late when the deck gets wet.

 

I have also got some leakage from the caprail somewhere ( probably chain plates or fairleads), but this is only a dribble. (Better bring a dry bag)

 

Cheers

 

Al

 

"Brite Star" Cabo Rico 38 #82

Mandurah Western Australia

From: cabo...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cabo...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Mickey Panayiotakis

Sent: Thursday, 23 September 2010 10:06 PM

To: cabo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [caborico] hatch replacement

Hrm

I see where the grinding woudl be necessary.  Woudl it be possible to get stainless steel hatches…but the tops only, so they sit on top of the fiberglass lip, rather than the lip on the  stainless steel  base? So basically make a steel/alloy frame to replace the wood, with acrylic on top?

Y

On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 9:58 AM, alangluyas <alang...@iinet.net.au> wrote:

Hi all,

 

I looked at replacing Brite Star's teak hatches a while ago and I may have mentioned it on the net. I foresaw the problem that Breck has mentioned on having to butcher the glass deck to get a flat mounting ( I can get stock hatches here very close to the opening size on the CR38 hatches). I decided I would not look at the job unless I was planning on a complete respray of the hull and decks.

 

Patrick - the four big problems with teak hatches are (1) they leak, (2) they require never ending maintenance, (3) they leak and (4) they require never ending maintenance. I have never had to worry about either on the boats I have had with flush alloy hatches.

 

I have got the full acrylic tops on Brite Star's hatches and I stripped two down last year for a re-finish. I took the acrylic off both of them ( and broke one bit getting it off). I re-finished the teak in 6 coats of two pack urethane - they looked great for a few months but the differential movement of the acrylic and teak has caused the joints in the teak to move and I am already seeing failure of the coating. :-(

 

The stainless hatches look good - I might investigate.

 

Cheers

 

Al

 

"Brite Star" Cabo Rico 38 #82

Mandurah Western Australia

From: cabo...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cabo...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Patrick
Sent: Thursday, 23 September 2010 10:52 AM
To: cabo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [caborico] hatch replacement

Breck,

 

If you please, what were the major problems with your wooden framed hatches? What did you do to try and resolve the issues before deciding to make the move the the more modern alternative and why do you think they were basically unworkable?

 

Thanks for your time and response.

 

Patrick

CR38, #43, Silhouette

---

From: cabo...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cabo...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Cab...@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2010 7:44 PM

To: cabo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [caborico] hatch replacement

I just could not stand the wood ones anymore. I do not remember them being that expensive, but lots of work. Did you take a look at the web site?

 

Breck Caine CR 38 #19

 

In a message dated 9/22/2010 10:12:02 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, svb...@gmail.com writes:

Drats.  Custom made hatches _and_ a ton of fiberglass work? that sounsd like a pain. Maybe I'll keep mine and put a full square of lexan on top like the in-between boats have.

Y

On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 4:19 PM, <Cab...@aol.com> wrote:

I have replaced the forward hatch, the main hatch and have the ss hatch to replace the hatch over the quarter berth. I got the hatches from a outfit called Manship?? I think, I placed the order at the Annapolis boat show. They were custom made. I had to do a fair amount of reworking with fiberglass to get the openings to match the hatches. I have done one hatch each winter. This is a time consuming project. If you want to do it let me know I'll post pictures and give as detailed info as I can remember. If you go to our sail club web site you may be able to find a picture of my boat and get an idea of how they look. www.longbaysailing.com. 

 

Breck Caine CR 38 #19

 

In a message dated 9/22/2010 1:08:49 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, svb...@gmail.com writes:

howdy folks 

Did one of you replace yoru old wooden hatches with alloy/stainless ones? I seem to remember someone mention this.  I'm thikning about doing this one hatch at a time over the winter.  Any info? How well did replacement hatches fit? Whom did you use? do off-the-shelf models work or do I need custom hatches?

Y

[Patrick]

I found the catalog copyright notice irritating as well but if they've got what I need I can get over it. The large style material (Perko #0461) is available from Defender and Fisheries Supply here in Seattle (http://www.fisheriessupply.com/). I don't currently believe that's what fits my ports but I'll know in a few days. I'm also not impressed with the fact that it is "open cell foam" and it sounds like your experience supports that concern.

 

Regarding the Dow 795 vs. the butyl question- In my mind it's a matter of how the glass is secured in the frame. I had expected to use butyl but once I got the first one apart I felt that there wasn't enough pressure applied by the assembly on the glass to hold it in place with the softer butyl sealant. This was true on both the rectangular ports, with the frame held in place by small screws, as well as the round units where a piece of large diameter springy bronze wire snaps in place into a grove. In other words once one gets all the old bedding out and then reassembles the glass into the frames without sealant, the glass is very loose with at least 1/8" plus of gap. I felt that since neither style provided a solid amount of pressure that the butyl in this application was not an ideal choice so I went with the industrial grade 795 in order to get more adhesion. I wire brushed and sanded the bronze frame edges, course sanded the glass edges along the thickness, and cleaned everything with alcohol before assembling using the 795. With careful masking, the glass to frame interface is clean and looks good. Given that these ports are 30 years old and the old glass bedding has lasted this long on most of them, I doubt I'll ever have to disassemble them again and if I do the 795 will be easier to deal with than something like 5200. 

 

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

 

Patrick

CR38, #43, Silhouette

---

From: cabo...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cabo...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Mickey Panayiotakis

Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 12:18 PM

[Cab...@aol.com]

I took some pictures of my hatch work. How do I post them?

 

Breck Caine CR 38 #19

 

In a message dated 9/24/2010 11:53:48 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, norskm...@aol.com writes:

[Cab...@aol.com]

Most rubber houses can cut you gaskets to fit. The stock ones from Perko do not work well.

 

Breck Caine CR 38 #19

 

In a message dated 9/24/2010 2:10:19 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, svb...@gmail.com writes:

yea, neoprene weather/water -proofing is neat.  I wish my portholes had it.  Anyone know a good source?

On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 2:05 PM, Patrick <pat...@dayshaw.net> wrote:

John,

 

I'm using 1/2" acrylic just because that's what was on the old units. I'm sure 3/8 would be adequate. I used polycarbonate on several hatches on another boat and it crazed quickly and scratched much more easily. These folks, who rebuild hatches and portlights for a living, present a pretty convincing case for the use of acrylic (Plexiglas) over polycarbonate (Lexan). http://www.selectplastics.com/index.php/blogs/tonyd/acrylic-vs-polycarbonate.html

 

As I mentioned in another post my hatch leaks are all where the wooden frames are coming apart and to some extent under the plastic to wood interface not through the gaskets. The prior owner of this boat installed two layers of what appears to be closed cell foam gasket material. One layer is installed on the vertical inside surface of the frame. It is rather soft and it butts tightly up against another layer that is glued to the horizontal overhead portion of the frame and mates with the top edge of the combing. That material is a bit denser. One needs to pull the hatch down to compress all of this material. There is a brass handle bolted to the center stile to facilitate that. The one hatch I've already rebuilt is ready to have the gaskets installed and I'm about to basically replicate the prior installation since it seemed to work well when I brought the boat up the coast and had a fair amount of water on deck on several occasions.

 

An interesting note on this topic appears in Beth Leonard's book, "The Voyager's Handbook", 2nd edition, she writes:

 

"Many older fiberglass boats have original hatches made from wood and fiberglass, these tend to be a primary source of leaks. The best alternative may be to replace these with new, high-quality aluminum or stainless steel hatches, available from several manufacturers. If you cannot afford to do that, or if the aesthetics of your boat depend upon the old style hatches, several modifications can reduce leaking substantially.

 

These older hatches tend to leak along the coaming lip even when the hatch is well dogged. To fix this problem, replace the gasket material with 10-12 pound hollow neoprene, such as 3M's professional-quality neoprene weather stripping. Add a second gasket along the top edge of the hatch coaming. Though you may have to have someone stand on the hatch to dog it, once dogged the seal should be water tight. High-quality weather stripping can also be used to keep water out of cockpit lockers and eliminate leaks through companionway hatches."

 

While I'd prefer new, modern hatches, I need to use the ones I've got.

 

Patrick

CR38, #43, Silhouette

 

---

From: cabo...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cabo...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of norskm...@aol.com
Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 8:53 AM
To: cabo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [caborico] hatch replacement

Hey Guys,

 

I was at a lecture by the Pardays and I asked Larry what he suggested.  Larry said that he used the seal material that is used on refergerator doors.  I'm into heavy thinking how to marry up the seal material and the hatches. 

 

I like the look of wood hatches and I am rebuilding my wooden hatches and installing 3/8" plexi-glass.  I was told by the plastic pro's that plex-glass would last longer than lexan.

 

Just something else to chew on.

 

John

 

Cabo Rico 38 - #24

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[Mickey Panayiotakis]

Breck

Easiest way is to do a picasa album: http://picasaweb.google.com/

Google Groups is about to disable the ability to upload files to the groups themselves. There are other alternatives but picasa seems to be the easiest for now

Or you can email me and I'll upload to my picasa album :)

mickey