Rudder Stock

[David Cameron Miss Molly]

Does anyone know if the rudder stock is Solid or Tubular stainless,and
I,have be told these rudders on the 38"s are poorly built.I,have water
seeping out the bottom slightly rusty.
Thanks Guys

[Jakesamberg]

Solid stock
I had to replace my rudder as it twisted on me and got water logged
Had Ross,foam make me one in Florida
These guys are awesome
Very happy with it

Sent from my iPad

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[David Cameron]

Thanks I,have been in contact with them.He stated that the rudders are poorly made any idea why?

[Jakesamberg]

I don't know how to accurately pass judgment on the build quality

it was really weird

My stealing alignment went way out of whack

And after running around checking envy thing from the quadrant to the pedestal

I finally decided that the rudder had failed in some way

I then noticed that the square end on the top of the rudder post

Ya know where the emergency tiller attaches was slightly off square when the boat was 

Going straight

And if I were to make that square top perpendicular to the centerline of the boat It would veer off to port

So i pulled the boat

Then pulled the rudder to find it was water logged to start

And weighted a million pounds

And once I had it off the boat was able to look at the fairness of the post to find it was bent and twisted

How this happened I really have no flipping Idea

I got my new Foss foam rudder

And it is strong and has a relative amount of positive buoyancy which actually made the boat sit on her lines

Better

As you know how we like to point our bows into the sky

I put the old rudder in my parents backyard

And finally about two months ago I went for a visit and had various implements of destruction like chainsaw circular saw, sledge hammer, etc and 

Busted the thing open

What I discovered was that the rudder post did twist and bend and the material that surrounds the steel

For the initial half inch or so was a very brittle and very slick sort of epoxy

Also there was evidence of rust inside

So I suppose it was possible for the steel to fail and twist

However, I must say that the steel was solid as shit! And the lamination was thick and pretty solid. So to say the build quality was poor i think is a bit aggressive

I think the materials may have been more to blame than anything

And I have heard of some bad steel on these boats Round the late 80s

My boat is a 92

In conclusion

I still love my boat and I trust the build quality through and through

But I love my new rudder

I could talk about this for days so please feel free to ask Me more questions

   Jake

[Cab...@aol.com]

Mine is solid. I need to get a new rudder and it seems the only way is to do it myself. Use the old stock and have someone weld on a new web and put the fiberglass casing back on.

 

Breck Caine CR 38 #19

[Cab...@aol.com]

How much was the new rudder? With a barn door rudder it is easy to damage it when backing up. That is what happened to mine. The rudder is solid but if you back up 22,000 lbs on the rudder it will bend.

 

Breck Caine CR 38 #19

 

[David Cameron Miss Molly]

Bdeck what wrong with your old rudder?

[David Cameron Miss Molly]

Thanks you covered all my bases including Foss,got a quote from them 4
hours away<i'drop the rudder and go for a ride,

[Cab...@aol.com]

It was bent 10deg off. It was water logged and had a massive amount of epoxy poured into it. I rebuilt it before I realized it was bent 10deg off. It is strong enough now, just 10deg. Off

 

Breck Caine CR 38 #19

 

[David Cameron]

Thanks Bech,any idea what bent it ?

Dave 52

-----Original Message-----
From: Cabo79 <Cab...@aol.com>
To: caborico <cabo...@googlegroups.com>

[David Cameron]

Beck I,have bee quoted about 2300.00 for a new rudder 500.00 less if they can rebuild using my old stock.

Dave 52

-----Original Message-----
From: Cabo79 <Cab...@aol.com>
To: caborico <cabo...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Sat, May 12, 2012 10:44 pm
Subject: Re: [caborico] Rudder Stock

[Jakesamberg]

That sounds about right

think I paid round 3000

I would be hesitant to use the old stock

Seeing as that may have been to blame for much of your issue

Saving 500 bucks isn't worth potentially recreating the issue

Piece of mind is invaluable

[Cab...@aol.com]

It was bent when I got it. I didn't realize it until I went to put on the auto pilot. I thought it had just let water in and rotted out the foam inside.

 

Breck Caine CR 38 #19

 

In a message dated 5/13/2012 2:51:27 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, tc...@aol.com writes:

Thanks Bech,any idea what bent it ?

Dave 52

-----Original Message-----
From: Cabo79 <Cab...@aol.com>
To: caborico <cabo...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Sat, May 12, 2012 10:51 pm
Subject: Re: [caborico] Re: Rudder Stock

It was bent 10deg off. It was water logged and had a massive amount of epoxy poured into it. I rebuilt it before I realized it was bent 10deg off. It is strong enough now, just 10deg. Off

 

Breck Caine CR 38 #19

 

In a message dated 5/12/2012 10:46:11 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, tc...@aol.com writes:

Bdeck what wrong with your old rudder?

On May 12, 10:38 pm, Cab...@aol.com wrote:
> Mine is solid. I need to get a new rudder and it seems the only way is to
> do it myself. Use the old stock and have someone weld on a new web and put
> the  fiberglass casing back on.
>

> Breck Caine  CR 38 #19
>

> In a message dated 5/12/2012 5:59:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
>
> tc...@aol.com writes:
>
> Does  anyone know if the rudder stock is Solid or Tubular stainless,and
> I,have be  told these rudders on the 38"s are poorly built.I,have water
> seeping out  the bottom slightly rusty.
> Thanks Guys
>

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[Cab...@aol.com]

That is a good price. What they have to do is cut off the fiberglass case, grind out all the old foam, The rudder stock is in two pieces and can be reused as it is solid SS. The inside web is made out of a metal that does rust and will need to be cut off and a new piece of the new type of web metal welded on to the two pieces of rudder stock, one at the top of the rudder and one at the bottom. Then the case has to be put back on, foamed and beefed up where it was cut. A big job in MHO. Let me know who is planning on doing it as that is only a few hundred more than Cabo Rico was going to charge me.

 

Breck Caine CR 38 #19

 

In a message dated 5/13/2012 2:52:57 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, tc...@aol.com writes:

Beck I,have bee quoted about 2300.00 for a new rudder 500.00 less if they can rebuild using my old stock.

Dave 52

-----Original Message-----
From: Cabo79 <Cab...@aol.com>
To: caborico <cabo...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Sat, May 12, 2012 10:44 pm
Subject: Re: [caborico] Rudder Stock

How much was the new rudder? With a barn door rudder it is easy to damage it when backing up. That is what happened to mine. The rudder is solid but if you back up 22,000 lbs on the rudder it will bend.

 

Breck Caine CR 38 #19

 

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[Kale Gorham]

I had huge blisters in my rudder, I opened, and ground out old wet foam the stainless steel looked like it was put in yesterday so I just made slurrey out of vinylester glass and filled the voids back up, and when I pulled her out last fall after 2 years no blister some water intrusion but I think thats normal in old rudders

Kale Gorham

---

From: Cab...@aol.com
Date: Sun, 13 May 2012 09:33:16 -0400

Subject: Re: [caborico] Rudder Stock

To: cabo...@googlegroups.com

[David Cameron]

Thanks Kale ,I,have NO blisters on the hul or rudder,I,cut open the bottom today with a dremel tool and clear water is present no rust just a few drips however the coring is Kaput maybe they used saw dust..Do I,cut it open from the side,do I,split it into two halfs and check everything? Then I,have to rebuild my fear is alinging the Halfs back to the stock would hate to go around in circles,the rest of my life,benn doing that enough lately.Boat is on the hard if you get  to stuart Give me a shout.

Thaanks dave

[David Cameron]

Well Breck,If I,decided to get a new rudder complete mine is straight,I'll make you a Deal.

Dave

[David Cameron]

Beck Foss in Fl.Gave me the quote,read my last post.

dave

[Cab...@aol.com]

Mine had huge blisters too. I used a hole saw, 2" I think, and cut out a dozen or so of the worst ones, the rest I ground down to good glass. The rudder was filled with mush except for one part where, (later I figured it was filled with epoxy after it was bent) Anyway I took a piece of old shroud cable and bent the wires back on one end and taped the other and used it a hair dryer and a shop vac to rout out all the mush. Then I patched and foamed. The web part of the rudder showed some rust, not the round stock.

 

Breck Caine CR 38 #19

 

In a message dated 5/13/2012 10:39:48 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kgor...@hotmail.com writes:

I had huge blisters in my rudder, I opened, and ground out old wet foam the stainless steel looked like it was put in yesterday so I just made slurrey out of vinylester glass and filled the voids back up, and when I pulled her out last fall after 2 years no blister some water intrusion but I think thats normal in old rudders

Kale Gorham

---

From: Cab...@aol.com
Date: Sun, 13 May 2012 09:33:16 -0400

Subject: Re: [caborico] Rudder Stock

To: cabo...@googlegroups.com

[Cab...@aol.com]

If the foam is shot, you could just do the hole thing like I did and put in new two part foam. I would add a couple layers of glass where the round stock comes out of the rudder to make sure it doesn't move. If the foam is just a little wet I would not mess with it.

 

Breck Caine CR 38 #19

 

In a message dated 5/13/2012 4:45:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, tc...@aol.com writes:

Thanks Kale ,I,have NO blisters on the hul or rudder,I,cut open the bottom today with a dremel tool and clear water is present no rust just a few drips however the coring is Kaput maybe they used saw dust..Do I,cut it open from the side,do I,split it into two halfs and check everything? Then I,have to rebuild my fear is alinging the Halfs back to the stock would hate to go around in circles,the rest of my life,benn doing that enough lately.Boat is on the hard if you get  to stuart Give me a shout.

Thaanks dave

-----Original Message-----
From: Kale Gorham <kgor...@hotmail.com>

To: caborico <cabo...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sun, May 13, 2012 10:39 am
Subject: RE: [caborico] Rudder Stock

[Cab...@aol.com]

Sounds good.

 

Breck Caine CR 38 #19

 

In a message dated 5/13/2012 4:47:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, tc...@aol.com writes:

Well Breck,If I,decided to get a new rudder complete mine is straight,I'll make you a Deal.

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: Cabo79 <Cab...@aol.com>
To: caborico <cabo...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Sun, May 13, 2012 9:57 am
Subject: Re: [caborico] Re: Rudder Stock

It was bent when I got it. I didn't realize it until I went to put on the auto pilot. I thought it had just let water in and rotted out the foam inside.

 

Breck Caine CR 38 #19

 

In a message dated 5/13/2012 2:51:27 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, tc...@aol.com writes:

Thanks Bech,any idea what bent it ?

Dave 52

-----Original Message-----
From: Cabo79 <Cab...@aol.com>
To: caborico <cabo...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Sat, May 12, 2012 10:51 pm
Subject: Re: [caborico] Re: Rudder Stock

It was bent 10deg off. It was water logged and had a massive amount of epoxy poured into it. I rebuilt it before I realized it was bent 10deg off. It is strong enough now, just 10deg. Off

 

Breck Caine CR 38 #19

 

In a message dated 5/12/2012 10:46:11 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, tc...@aol.com writes:

Bdeck what wrong with your old rudder?

On May 12, 10:38 pm, Cab...@aol.com wrote:
> Mine is solid. I need to get a new rudder and it seems the only way is to
> do it myself. Use the old stock and have someone weld on a new web and put
> the  fiberglass casing back on.
>

> Breck Caine  CR 38 #19
>

> In a message dated 5/12/2012 5:59:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

>
> tc...@aol.com writes:
>
> Does  anyone know if the rudder stock is Solid or Tubular stainless,and
> I,have be  told these rudders on the 38"s are poorly built.I,have water
> seeping out  the bottom slightly rusty.
> Thanks Guys
>

[Kale Gorham]

David just take a die grinder and open her up see whats up I think a new rudder is a little drastic if you see what you got I would just foam it up or slurrey it up like I did my rudder. If you need help doing the glass work call me 

Kale Gorham

---

To: cabo...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [caborico] Rudder Stock

From: tc...@aol.com
Date: Sun, 13 May 2012 16:45:41 -0400

[David Cameron]

Thanks Kale I,am taking it out tomrrow.If local sailing was all I,intended I,would follow your plan.I have been lead to beleive that allthough the rudder shaft is strong the tabing is not,also the coring which IMO means next to nothing considering the thickness of the Shell.To tear it apart and rebuild is labor and time too m,any other projects,a new one seems best especially since you can;t se the frame without major surgery.

Thanks for the offer,I'll keep you posted.

[Cab...@aol.com]

I am not sure what you mean by tabbing. The web which looked to be 1/4" thick is welded to the round stock? There may have been some tabbing straps used to hold the web in place for welding but the strength comes from the welds between the round stock and the web. I'll look for a picture of what the inside looks like to send you, or does anyone have a picture?

 

Breck Caine CR 38 #19

 

[Kale Gorham]

Breck I agree it wasn't webbing it was substantial material 1/4 inch would be right although I did not measure the thickness all my stainless that was exposed at the lower end of the rudder looked prestine.  Also I may be mistaken, I was told barn door rudders are the most durable I don't think Cabo Rico has a rudder failure problem off shore, or does any one know?

Kale Gorham

---

From: Cab...@aol.com
Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 09:40:40 -0400

[Mickey Panayiotakis]

No pictures Breck, but would love to see some.

[David Cameron]

Guy's perhaps I,am using the wrong term Tabbing is Wegbbing to me,This fellow at Foss states the ones he has seen were small,You Guys have seen the inside is that a fact that they are small?I,find it hard to beleive that with the rest of the boat as built bas it is that the rudder would be underbuilt.

[Cab...@aol.com]

Never heard of one?

 

Breck Caine CR 38 #19

 

[Cab...@aol.com]

I could not find a picture of it. I could draw it, maybe you can picture it. Round stock at the top, round stock at the bottom. The web is shaped to allow for the prop aperture and has large holes in it to cut down on weight. The web is welded to the top and bottom round stock. Then the fiberglass shell is put over it, foamed and finished. I remember there is a special type of stainless they use for webs. I tried to find it on Google but couldn't.

 

Breck Caine CR 38 #19

 

In a message dated 5/14/2012 12:31:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, svb...@gmail.com writes:

No pictures Breck, but would love to see some.

On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 9:40 AM, <Cab...@aol.com> wrote:

[Cab...@aol.com]

Like I say, it was 1/4 thick and was within 2, 4 inches of the inside edge of the fiberglass shell. That seems big to me??? But maybe they use thicker and take the web closer to the inside edge of the shell?? If they have made these before maybe they have pictures of what they do. The price sounds good maybe we can both buy one. Anyone else interested??   I'll e-mail them for pictures.

 

Breck Caine CR 38 #19

 

In a message dated 5/14/2012 1:38:24 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, tc...@aol.com writes:

Guy's perhaps I,am using the wrong term Tabbing is Wegbbing to me,This fellow at Foss states the ones he has seen were small,You Guys have seen the inside is that a fact that they are small?I,find it hard to beleive that with the rest of the boat as built bas it is that the rudder would be underbuilt.

Dave 52

-----Original Message-----
From: Kale Gorham <kgor...@hotmail.com>
To: caborico <cabo...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Mon, May 14, 2012 11:06 am
Subject: RE: [caborico] Rudder Stock

Breck I agree it wasn't webbing it was substantial material 1/4 inch would be right although I did not measure the thickness all my stainless that was exposed at the lower end of the rudder looked prestine.  Also I may be mistaken, I was told barn door rudders are the most durable I don't think Cabo Rico has a rudder failure problem off shore, or does any one know?

Kale Gorham

---

From: Cab...@aol.com
Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 09:40:40 -0400

[Kale Gorham]

David, the only thing I saw was a ss plate welded to the rudder shaft. I was on the lower end of the rudder, I opened up a 8 inc wide by 10inch high hole cleaned out the old foam it was black and rotten till i got high enough to where I had good foam. I saw a plate welded to the shaft I imagined it went all the way up I did not see a cage around the prop as I wasn't that high I suppose that what is Breck talking about webbing. The plate I saw was substantial material and in excellent shape.

Kale Gorham

---

To: cabo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [caborico] Rudder Stock
From: tc...@aol.com

Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 12:03:01 -0400

[Cab...@aol.com]

I think I will take what we have been writing and send it to Foss and ask for pictures of a CR rudder being made. Is that OK with everyone??

 

Breck Caine CR 38 #19

 

[Kale Gorham]

Yes 

Kale Gorham

---

From: Cab...@aol.com
Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 14:12:16 -0400

[David Cameron]

Fine by me

[GARBOARD]

Breck:

My rudder is twisted a bit more that 10 degrees, it was that way when I bought it.   I wonder how you resolved the issue.  Did you buy a new Foss rudder or fix it yourself ?   Does anyone know if there are any other choices besides Foss for a new rudder

and if so, has anyone used their product ?

Thanks,

Brian

C/R 38 # 150

On Saturday, May 12, 2012 at 10:38:00 PM UTC-4, Breck wrote:

Mine is solid. I need to get a new rudder and it seems the only way is to do it myself. Use the old stock and have someone weld on a new web and put the fiberglass casing back on.

 

Breck Caine CR 38 #19

 

In a message dated 5/12/2012 5:59:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, tc...@aol.com writes:

Does anyone know if the rudder stock is Solid or Tubular stainless,and
I,have be told these rudders on the 38"s are poorly built.I,have water
seeping out the bottom slightly rusty.
Thanks Guys

[Larry Barker]

Brian,

Where is the twist? Is the stock bent or is it twisted on the trailing edge ?

Larry 

Venteux

Sent from my iPhone

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[BRIAN GORTNEY]

Larry:
The key way and square on the top of the rudder are way off when the leading and trailing edge of the rudder are aligned with the keel.  The rudder stop is way off center and the emergency tiller is too.   I used a Zircon HD800 metal sud finder and located one of the upper tabs and took a 3 3/8" hole saw I had and cut a hole there to the metal tab. The shaft is S/S and looks good.  The tab is wide and has very strong magnetic attraction, it is ferrous and Fraser says it it Corten steel.  The weld from tab to shaft is shinny stainless and looks good. The tab has about 1/16" of black oxide that can be scraped off and some rust.  I drilled a 1/4" hole through the tab and got a big "Puff" of air pressure and dust blown out of the hole as soon as I drilled through kit.  Not good.  The metal tab is at least 1/4" thick.  The rudder skin on my core sample is a good 3/8" thick fiberglass laminate and the core is some sort of black foam.  I put a piece of the foam in a bowl of water and it floated for a bit and sank.  I picked it up and dryed it.  I was able to shake water out of it after drying it.  Must be open cell......  Not good.  Only two explanations in my case.  Either they did not have the shaft indexed correctly when they built the rudder or the shaft twisted inside the rudder bending the tabs.  I think the later.  I rebuilt my Edson steering with new everything including chain and cables.  I marked the center link of the chain with a loop of dental floss and aligned the "V" on the sprocket. Brought the rudder into alignment on the outside and marked the shaft with rudder centered to the gland nut after I had re-packed it.  The rudder stop was missing when I bought my boat and the end of the electric autopilot ram was damaged from being used as a stop. Now I know why.  I bought a new stop from Edson and it looked  like  one had previously been there in the bolt holes.  The stop is about 2" from being on the center of the quadrant with the rudder centered.  From neutral I have 6 spokes of the wheel pass center to hard over to port and 13 spokes from neutral to  hard over stbd.   Not good.  I'll let you know what I do.  The rudder is ready to drop.  The S/S key where the autopilot arm was attached under the quadrant was pushed over / bent to one side about .050" as well.  Had to make a new key.   Looks like I need a new rudder ? I'll send pics of the hole from my phone. Externally the ruder looks fine and sound tests fine with a plastic mallet ?   I can't see , or say that the tabing is bent from the inspection I did through the hole I cut yesterday ?  Looks straight but need to remove more material .  I attached some pics from my cell phone.  I had an industrial NDT company look at the boat and give me an estimate on X-Raying the rudder.  The wanted $2000.00 if they sent a crew to the boat and $900.00 if I brought the rudder in.   That's when I decided to buy the metal stud finder, find the tabs and cut a hole.
Best,
Brian

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[cab...@aol.com]

I have not replaced it yet as it is OK for what I use the boat for now. But it is on the "list". I sail most every weekend. Home by Sunday night. I have done a lot of work on the rudder,  refoamed  the inside, made the the area cut out for the prop bigger to accommodate a Max Prop. I did not realize that it was off by 10 degs, until I installed a new autopilot. When I started to remove the foam I saw a lot of epoxy in the rudder, later I figured it was an attempt to fix the rudder by the previous owner. As I said I have a machine shop that will weld a new frame on the rudder posts, there is an upper post welded to the upper part of the frame and a lower post welded to the lower part of the frame. My rudder posts appear to be solid, anyone know different?

Breck Caine CR 38 #19

-----Original Message-----
From: GARBOARD <go...@earthlink.net>
To: caborico <cabo...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: Cabo79 <Cab...@aol.com>
Sent: Sun, Jul 26, 2015 7:31 pm
Subject: Re: [caborico] Rudder Stock

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[cab...@aol.com]

If his is like mine, it is bent where the frame attaches to the stock. It fills with water because when this happens the casing is twisted on the stock and the seal is broken.

Don't back into anything with that barn door rudder.

Breck Caine CR 38 #19

-----Original Message-----
From: 'Larry Barker' via caborico <cabo...@googlegroups.com>
To: caborico <cabo...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Jul 26, 2015 9:28 pm
Subject: Re: [caborico] Rudder Stock

[Brian Gortney]

Breck:
My stock seems to be solid bar stock.  Fraser says its Aqualloy 22.  Not sure of that but it's totally non-magnetic like 316L.  I believe the stock is a split shaft that goes down to the aperture, is welded to the inner superstructure and another shaft begins below the aperture and goes down to the shoe, it is also welded to the superstructure just as you describe.   It would be hard to twist an 1 1/2" solid S/S shaft.  I think the internal frame work bent where its welded to the shaft.  Mine has evidence of a void, or channel along side of the stock where water has run down into the core foam and rusted the inner framework. 
Have you checked with anyone besides Foss for a quote ?   What did Foss quote you ?  I want to fix it now while its on the hard.
Thanks,
Brian

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[LDCB...@aol.com]

Breck,

That makes sense now, You are right about being a barn door. :)

 

Larry

Venteux

[GARBOARD]

I just spoke with Fraser and thought I'd pass this on to the group.  He said the 34' rudders are not the same as the 38 rudder and the 38 rudders are all the same from hull # 83 and up as they changed molds and tooling on hull # 83.  Also I found the following will make or repair our rudders:

1.) Foss Foam / New Rudder of Florida

2.) Foss Foam of CA.

3.) CSI Composites in MA

4.) Rudder Craft  in ID

5.) Sailcraft  NC

Prices and options for stainless steel types and resins etc. vary considerably.  Al at Foss in Florida offers the best price so far.  No idea who builds the best product ?

[Leslie.Owen]

Add to your list a shop in Queenstown,Md. will custom make a rudder with certified Monel steel as Foss Rudders will not.

Clay

S/V Tango

Sent from my iPad

[Brian Gortney]

Leslie:
Do you have the name of the shop ?
Brian  CR 38  #150

[Tom Fuhs]

That's great information.  Thanks Brian.  I had read somewhere that CR used Aqumet-22 for the rudder posts and cor-ten steel for the internal webbing / armature.  I have no idea if that is for early or later models.  It likely changed over the years with the design of the rudder.  I talked to Al at Foss foam as well and his price did seem really reasonable, but it was with a 304 stainless post.  It would likely be considerably more for a Aqumet-22 post.  I'd think that Aqumet-22 would be a good material for the post as it's very strong and made for high torque applications (prop shafts), and is the alloy of choice for prop shafts where corrosion in the low oxygen environment of the cuttlass bearing / stern tube is a problem.  Regardless of who I ultimately get to make the new rudder, I think I'd feel more comfortable about it if I can inspect the new post / webbing armature assembly before it's assembled and cast into the new rudder.  I think I also want to see cert. sheets for the material.  You want to be sure you're getting the material you ordered and paid for.  There is a lot of crap being passed off as high alloy stainless steel.  I guess we've all seen relatively new allegedly  316  SS bolts start rusting within months.  Sometimes it's an honest mistake, but I think there is a lot of "free profit" occurring as well.  I'm not pointing any fingers or casting aspersions, however I prefer to "Trust, but verify".  Your rudder is so very critical and a failure is just not something you want to deal with.  I want to address this once and not need to worry about it later. 

[GARBOARD]

Here's some interesting info I copied from the Jefa Rudder site on rudder stock material.  After talking to a number of boat builders they all seem to agree that one does not want a rudder and shaft so strong that if damaged that it would, or could, rip a hole in the rear of the boat before the rudder or stock failed.  Most everyone I have spoken with agrees that 316L S/S is best for our vessels and anything above that is overkill and a waste of money.  I paste the whole thing here because the link as I copied it only brings you to the Jefa home page and this is buried in the site. Keep in mind that the rudders Jefa builds are spade rudders mostly used on European boats, they are not supported by a rudder shoe bolted to the bottom of the keel and therefore need a stronger stock.
Best Regards,
Brian

Rudder Stock Materials

---

Historically stainless steel 316 has been the preferred rudder shaft material. This material was chosen as it was non corrosive and relatively strong and widely available. At the end of last century alternative rudder stock materials like aluminium and high strength  stainless steel became widely available.
Driven by the aircraft and space industry, new high quality aluminium alloys were developed. Some of these alloys turned out to be perfectly suitable for rudder shafts and other parts of sailing yachts. Gradually all big boat yards making GRP yachts converted to aluminium rudder shafts. But still some people, especially some designers, doubt about the use of aluminium as rudder stock material.
The purpose of this page is to present a clear overview off all material characteristics so one is able to make a clear choice based on facts and not on rumors.

Hull material:

The choice of hull material could fix the choice of the rudder stock material. On steel hulls one should use a stainless steel rudder shaft. On aluminium hulls one should choose an aluminium rudder shaft. More in depth info about this choice is explained on our electrolysis page. On GRP or composite hulls one has the choice between aluminium, stainless steel, and carbon. As Jefa Marine's primary production is targeted on metal rudder stocks we will go in depth in comparing aluminium and stainless steel.

Important mechanical properties:

To be able to evaluate the mechanical properties of metals one should first know that four of many mechanical properties of a metal are important for rudder stocks:

• 0.2% proof stress: As soon as forces are applied to a metal it will deform. Up until the 0.2% proof stress, this deformation is called elastic deformation. This means that after the forces are taken away, the metal will come back to it's original shape (with a maximum permanent deformation of 0.2%). The value of the 0.2% proof stress is given in Newton per square mm (N/mm²). Projected on a rudder shaft, this figure will determine the point of permanent damage. When the forces on the rudder shaft will rise above the 0.2% proof stress, the rudder shaft will be permanently bend and practically unusable.
   

• Tensile strength: The tensile strength or breaking strength determines the point where the stress level in the metal has risen so high that the metal is torn. The value of the tensile strength is given in Newton per square mm (N/mm²). For rudder stocks this figure isn't very important: From the proof stress point, the metal will flow and the rudder shaft will heavily bend permanently and eventually break at the tensile strength point.
   

• Specific weight: The specific weight of a metal is used to calculate the mass of a product with a given volume and is specified in Kg/m³. Very dense metals (like stainless steel) will have a high specific weight, light metals (like aluminium) will have a low specific weight.

Characteristics of aluminium:

The mechanical and anti-corrosion characteristics of aluminium depend on the alloy elements. Pure aluminium is not usable for a high strength purpose like a rudder shaft. The most popular aluminium alloy for rudder shafts is AlMgSi1 (EN 6082). The addition of the alloy element manganese extremely increases the mechanical properties proof stress and tensile strength. The addition of the alloy element silicon extremely increases the corrosion resistance of the aluminium. A hard and strong layer of silicon oxide SiO2 protects the aluminium even against the most hostile seawater. We use the following types of aluminium:

• Aluminium AlMgSi1 (EN 6082)
  The tensile strength is 340 N/mm² , the 0.2 % proof stress is 280 N/mm², the specific weight is 2.700 Kg/m³.
• Aluminium AlZnMgCu1,5 (EN 7075)
  The tensile strength is 520 N/mm² , the 0.2 % proof stress is 460 N/mm²,  the specific weight is 2.700 Kg/m³.

Characteristics of stainless steel:

The mechanical and anti-corrosion characteristics of steel depend on the alloy elements and the heat treatment. By adding carbon, chrome and nickel to iron and heat tread it correctly, one achieves the alloy stainless steel. The protection against corrosion is not achieved by an oxide layer like aluminium, but the added chrome and nickel make sure the metal itself will not oxidise. We use the following types of stainless steel:

• Stainless steel aisi 316 (1.4401)
  The tensile strength is 600 N/mm² , the 0.2 % proof stress is 200 N/mm², the specific weight is 7.900 Kg/m³.
• Stainless steel aisi 329 (1.4460)
  The tensile strength is 750 N/mm² , the 0.2 % proof stress is 450 N/mm², the specific weight is 7.900 Kg/m³.
• Stainless steel aisi 630 (1.4542)
  The tensile strength is 1.100 N/mm² , the 0.2 % proof stress is 900 N/mm², the specific weight is 7.900 Kg/m³.

Comparing aluminium and stainless steel:

Another important comparing factor, besides the mechanical properties, is the price of a rudder stock. In order to make a complete comparison between the four types of materials we will take an example of a complete rudder stock. A typical rudder stock has it's maximum diameter at the bottom bearing area, is tapered down to about 50% and up to about 60% of the maximum diameter, has a keyway, 3 or 4 spokes, and an emergency tiller connection.

Comparison between shaft materials relative to aluminium AlMgSi1 (6082)
	Al. 6082	Al. 7075	St. St. 316	St. St. 329	St. St. 630
Proof Stress	100%	164%	71%	161%	321%
Tensile Strength	100%	153%	176%	221%	324%
Specific Weight	100%	100%	293%	293%	293%
Relative Price	100%	200%	250%	300%	300%

Aluminium 6082: Aluminium 6082 combines a high proof stress with a relatively light weight and a low price. On top of that it is fully seawater resistant. Due to this properties, 70-80% of the boat builders worldwide use this material as rudder stock material. The AL6082 rudder stocks can be anodized for extra protection. The downside if this material is the relative thick rudder stock an therefore blade, so it is mainly used for cruising rudder blades.
Aluminium 7075: On high performance racing yachts with very thin shaped rudder blades one could use the high strength aluminium 7075. The use of this material will give the opportunity to minimise the shaft diameter and thereby minimise the maximum rudder blade thickness. As this material is not seawater resistant, the complete rudder shaft will be anodised after production, making it completely electrically neutral, but a full proof guarantee on corrosion can not be given as any damage on the shaft will lead to corrosion. As these relative thin rudder shafts will bend more than usual under loading, it is vital to use self-aligning bearings. It's an ideal metal for boats which are not in the water all year long.
Stainless AISI 316: When comparing Aluminium 6082 and stainless 316, the first thing that catches one's eye is the low proof stress of stainless 316. In fact it's the weakest material in the list. As result of this the rudder stocks made from this material will be tick and heavy and consequently expensive. The corrosion resistance is the best of all metals.
Stainless AISI 329: When analyzing the figures for stainless 329, it's obvious that this material is a much better choice over stainless 316. The price is only 10% higher than stainless 316 and the proof stress is 225% higher with the same corrosion resistance. Due to the high proof stress, one can make the rudder shaft thinner so the end price of the rudder shaft in stainless 329 is actually lower than the end price of the shaft in stainless 316. So one may conclude that when stainless steel is the preferred rudder material, and the thickness of the rudder blade is not an issue, one should use stainless 329.
Stainless AISI 630: When the rudder blade thickness is an important issue and a carbon rudder shaft is not an option due to the much higher price, stainless steel 630 (also called 17-4 PH) is the best choice. It's 4½ times as strong as stainless 316. It withstands corrosive attacks better than any of the standard hardenable stainless steels and the amount of corrosion is comparable to stainless 304. So in time a brownish corrosion layer will cover the rudder stock and when submerged in seawater for length of time, some small pitting may occur. This corrosion is harmless and doesn't significantly influence the strength of the rudder stock. When this is undesirable, a thin (2½ mm) stainless 316 sleeve should be used around the rudder stock to achieve a corrosion free running surface. See this web page. This metal is very popular in France where thin rudder blades tend to be used and has been successfully used over 25 years.

Conclusions:

• Aluminium 6082 rudder shafts are strong, light and economic and ideal for cruising production yachts..

• If stainless steel is preferred, one should use stainless steel AISI 329.

• Stainless steel 316 rudder shafts are NOT stronger than aluminium 6082 rudder stocks.

• Very thin rudder blades can only use the ultra strong stainless AISI 630 which has some small corrosion issues. (See the above text how to avoid this).

• All measurements to avoid corrosion can be found on our electrolysis page.

[Clay]

http://www.openingtimes.co/robert-fink-renaissance-yachts-queenstown-md

...who did our as well as he provided pictures of the process of the build

Sent from my iPad

[Brian Gortney]

[GARBOARD]

Group:
Is everyone happy with the rudders they purchased from Foss Foam of Florida ?  I'd love to hear any feedback.  I am considering having them build me a rudder.  Also I would like to know what hull # you have if you had Foss build you a rudder ?  I just measured mine and it differs from the mold dimensions Al emailed me.  I have a later model boat being hull # 150 and I am wondering if he made the mold from an early rudder ?
Thanks for Your Help,
Brian