Banning Out of Class motorized bikes from Class 1 bike paths?

[Gary Cziko]

People,

1. We have heard that the CHP says it can't do anything about out-of-class motorized bikes because they slip through the existing laws: not bikes, not ebikes, not mopeds, not motorized bicycles, not motorcycles.

2. But we also know that local governments can regulate traffic on bike paths, such as Class 1 paths separated from roadways.

So, question:

Can a city create an ordinance banning any powered bike that does not carry a valid Class 1, Class 2 or Class 3 sticker from its bicycle path, such as Manhattan Beach's portion of the L.A. beach bike trail. Could this include fines and/or impoundment of such vehicles?

--Gary

--Gary

--

Gary Cziko ("ZEE-ko"), Ph.D.
Professor Emeritus
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign

Board of Directors, California Association of Bicycle Organizations (CABObike.org)

CyclingSavvy Instructor (CSI)

Board of Directors, American Bicycling Education Association (March 2015 - August 2021)

Expert Witness for Cyclists' Rights

Author:

Without Miracles: Universal Selection Theory and the Second Darwinian Revolution (MIT Press, 1995)

The Things We Do: Using the Lessons of Bernard and Darwin to Understand the What, How, and Why of Our Behavior (MIT Press, 2000).

[David Takemoto-Weerts]

OO! OO! Where can I download those  "valid Class 1, Class 2 or Class 3 sticker images" online? What does Manhattan Beach charge for an entrepreneur to set up a table by the bike path? 😜

David Takemoto-Weerts

Davis, CA

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[Gary Cziko]

David, get 'em right here!

OK, so maybe they just ban all throttled bikes, that means Class 2, too!

But the question I am asking now is not what would be effective, but what kind of ordinances cities can impose on a bike path concerning who can ride, and what can be ridden. I know they can impose a speed limit.

--Gary

[clint.sandusky]

Gary - Here's what the Vehicle Code says on your question:

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?sectionNum=23127&lawCode=VEH

Clint

Sent from my Galaxy

--

[clint.sandusky]

Gary - One BIG change to CVC 21207.5 (a-c) --

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?sectionNum=21207.5&lawCode=VEH -- 

is that local authorities CANNOT prohibit any class of e-Bike on a "bicycle path or trail."  Thanks to AB-1909 Bicycle Omnibus Bill 2021-2022.

Clint⚡️

Sent from my Galaxy

-------- Original message --------

From: Gary Cziko <gcz...@gmail.com>

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[Jim Baross]

I didn't think an eBike qualified as a "motorized vehicle."

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[clint.sandusky]

Jim - it does not per CVC 312.5(a) and 24016(b).

To answer Bill, I believe if someone attached a gas powered motor to a conventional bicycle it could then be defined and regulated as a "motorized bicycle" per the provisions of CVC 406.  What does everyone else think?

[Gary Cziko]

Clint,

Good to know.

But does "any class of e-bike" include out-of-class ebikes, like the throttled Super 73s which roll faster than 20 mph with no pedaling? Could a local government prohibit and ticket and maybe impound those, or are they stymied by the CVC on this on bike paths as is the CHP on roadways?

--Gary

[Clinton Sandusky]

Gary - any class of electric bicycle is ONLY per CVC 312.5(a)(1-3) and not OCEVs (which  NOT a legal term).

These OCEVs are of major confusion and differing opinions within CA law enforcement agencies.  As I have mentioned, the CHP, Sacramento told me they will NOT tow, store or impound these OCEVs because they believe they are currently not defined as "vehicles" within the CVC.  That's why some of us need to keep working with the CHP and our legislators to amend the CVC to include these OCEVs as vehicles (which will solve many current problems)!

Clint

Clint

[Gary Cziko]

Clint,

So what I think now is that:

1. A city like Manhattan Beach cannot restrict Class 1, 2 and 3 ebikes on its section of the LA beach bike path, but it could prohibit powered "bikes" that were not Class 1, 2 or 3.

2. And it could impose speed limits as it wished on the bike path.

But that's basically all it can do. Is that right?

--Gary

[Clinton Sandusky]

Gary,

See below comments in red:

Clint

On Wed, Oct 11, 2023 at 7:42 PM Gary Cziko <gcz...@gmail.com> wrote:

Clint,

So what I think now is that:

1. A city like Manhattan Beach cannot restrict Class 1, 2 and 3 ebikes on its section of the LA beach bike path, but it could prohibit powered "bikes" that were not Class 1, 2 or 3.  Any motor vehicle (per CVC 23127).

2. And it could impose speed limits as it wished on the bike path.  Per CVC 21206, "This chapter does not prevent local authorities, by ordinance, from regulating the registration of bicycles and the parking and operation of bicycles on pedestrian or bicycle facilities, provided such regulation is not in conflict with the provisions of this code."  Therefore, as local authorities have done I believe they can.  You say, what is a bicycle facility?  CVC 39004(a) tells us what it is (as the Vehicle Code cannot contradict itself?): "...establish bicycle facilities, including bicycle paths and lanes, within the limits of the jurisdiction."

But that's basically all it can do. Is that right?  I suppose "operation of bicycles" means other CVC statutes like the helmet laws (21212 and 21213) could be regulated by local ordinance on pedestrian or bicycle facilities.  NOT THE ROADWAY, as supported by CVC 21(a), 21206, 21207.5(b-c) and 21100(h).

--Gary

[Jim Baross]

Is an eBike a "motorized bicycle".

On Wed, Oct 11, 2023, 4:37 PM clint.sandusky <clint.s...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Serge Issakov]

No. Not if it’s class 1 2 or 3. They or their owners or riders are not subject to any of the regulations, requirements or limitations which  apply specifically to “motorized bicycles”. 

That ship has sailed. 

Whether a more powerful “out of class” ebike is a “motorized bicycle” is undefined. 

Serge

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[Michael Graff]

DMV's summary is maybe (or maybe not) helpful.

https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/vehicle-registration/new-registration/motorcycles-mopeds-and-scooters/

Is there something about out-of-class devices that makes them NOT mopeds?

Mopeds

    Also known as a motorized bicycle, a moped has 2-3 wheels and an electric motor with an automatic transmission that produces less than 4 gross brake horsepower.
    Some mopeds have pedals so you can ride them when the motor is off.

   

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[Gary Cziko]

Michael asked:

Is there something about out-of-class devices that makes them NOT mopeds?
Mopeds

    Also known as a motorized bicycle, a moped has 2-3 wheels and an electric motor with an automatic transmission that produces less than 4 gross brake horsepower.

What is an "automatic transmission" in the context of out-of-class electric devices? If it has operable pedals with user selectable speeds (derailleur or internal hub) would that make it not an automatic transmission?

--Gary

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[clint.sandusky]

Gary - it is all so confusing, including for my friends in law enforcement who do look to the CHP for answers.

That's why they and I believe the CVC (Sections 400, 405, 406, etc.) needs to be amended to address these OCEVs, so the laws keep up (for now) with the technology at hand.

Clint

Retired Police Cyclist

CA POST-certified Bike Patrol Instructor (29 yrs.)

E-Bike Presenter, Instructor, Author & Consultant⚡️

CABO, District 8 Rep.

[Gary Cziko]

Michael,

According to ChatGPT-4:

"The primary function of an automatic transmission is to automatically change gears without any direct input from the driver, making the driving experience more convenient and less demanding compared to manual transmissions."

So in that sense out-of-class electric thingies are not moped because they don't have an automatic transmission that changes gears.

--Gary

[Michael Graff]

Hang on, do they mean electric motor gears, or pedal-chain gears? Do out-of-class e-cycles have manual shifters for the electric motor?

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[Michael Graff]

Which is easier to enforce on a multi-use path?

• Motorized bike-shaped-object is not a Class 1/2/3 e-bike
  
• Rider is exceeding the posted speed limit, or otherwise being reckless
  

[Gary Cziko]

Michael,

I am pretty sure they mean automatic gears between the (internal combustion) motor and the driven wheel since electric motors don’t need gears since they have fairly constant torque at all operable RPMs.

So I believe that no vehicle driven by an electric motor is not going to be a moped by the definition that currently exists.

We need to revise the laws pronto!

—Gary

[Michael Graff]

The definition of "moped" is a logical mess of "ands" and "ors", so who knows? Clint is right, the definitions of the various "cycles" need to be updated.

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=VEH&sectionNum=406.

(a) A “motorized bicycle” or “moped” is a two-wheeled or three-wheeled device having fully operative pedals for propulsion by human power, 

or having no pedals if powered solely by electrical energy, 

and an automatic transmission 

and a motor that produces less than 4 gross brake horsepower 

and is capable of propelling the device at a maximum speed of not more than 30 miles per hour on level ground.

[clint.sandusky]

Gary - we also fail to realize that legal Class 2 e-Bikes and OCEVs when used in throttle mode require no shifting of gears (automatic transmission so to speak), as the internal magnets/coils of the electric motor provide power/rotation to the hub/wheel.

[Serge Issakov]

This is the main issue in my view, Michael. 

Set up clear speed limits on bikeways and enforce them periodically. 

I’ve seen Harleys use bike lanes to filter forward. As long as they do it slowly and safely, who cares?

All this handwringing about classes is pointless. 

Behavior matters, not what’s between your thighs. 

Serge

[Pete van Nuys]

It's not just a matter of speed or type of Ebike, the very presence of powered bikes is offensive on some paths designated as historic, scenic, or pedestrian only. Trails in National Wilderness prohibit MTBs. Local agencies must be able to designate paths motor free facilities; it's the same prerogative they have for sidewalks.

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[Serge Issakov]

Pete and all,

I just don’t understand the practical difference made to anyone or anything between, say, a 150 pound rider on a 50 pound E-bike versus a 175 pound strong rider on a 25 pound acoustic bike.

Who or what is affected differently by either in any significant way? Why can the latter be acceptable but not the former?

It seems to me both can ride about equally either safely and responsibly, or unsafely and irresponsibly. 🤷‍♂️ 

Serge

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[petevannuys]

So no problem with mountain bikes on the Bright Angel Trail in Grand Canyon then? And by extension Ebikes if ridden by lightweight riders at less than, say, 10 mph? And doesn't that discriminate against the obese, who will sue for equal access and win?

Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

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[John Serafin]

On Wed, Oct 11, 2023 at 04:33:35PM -0700, Gary Cziko wrote:
> David, get 'em right here!
>
> [image: image.png]

Class 4 ebikes are allowed 1.21GW?

That is more than an A1B aircfraft carrier nuclear reactor
can generate.

[Bill SELLIN]

An electric bicycle is a bicycle device.

An eBike that has 750 w or more or throttle and goes over 20 is a vehicle.

I keep saying we should use electric bicycle when we mean legal low speed and speed bicycles.

EBike covers the whole universe from electric bicycles to motorized bicycles to motor-driven cycles to motorcycles…

Bill Sellin

714 943-3678

wa...@sellin.com

"Most of the World 

      is either Downhill or Flat...

On Oct 11, 2023, at 5:11 PM, Jim Baross <jimb...@cox.net> wrote:



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[William Sellin]

There is no such thing as a class 4 eBike under the laws of California - and where did we see 1.21 GW?
Electric bicycles are limited to LESS THAN 750w power.

Bill Sellin

714 943-3678

WASe...@gmail.com

"Most of the World 

        is either Downhill or Flat..."

On Oct 22, 2023, at 12:33 PM, John Serafin <j...@pobox.com> wrote:

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[John Serafin]

On Sun, Oct 22, 2023 at 02:10:43PM -0700, William Sellin wrote:
> There is no such thing as a class 4 eBike under the laws of California - and where did we see 1.21 GW?
> Electric bicycles are limited to LESS THAN 750w power.

In the image attached to Gary Cziko's email referenced below.

[Paul Wendt]

Clearly they meant KW!

“Only” 6 orders of magnitude off!

Paul

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[Gary Cziko]

See https://chat.openai.com/share/e7372078-1776-4cce-a96b-0bfad5c488fb about Class 4 e-bikes.

--Gary

[Michael Graff]

Nobody noticed that it's both 1.2 GW and 88 MPH? Like the DeLorean in "Back to the Future"?

I should put one of those stickers on my acoustic bike  ;)

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[William Sellin]

LOL ! I get it now… 

I was stuck focusing with the 750w stickers... In California the law for electric bicycle is LESS THAN 750 w.

Bill Sellin

714 943 3678

WASe...@gmail.com

"Most of the World is either Downhill or Flat…"

[David Whiteman]

I was perusing the CicLAvia website (https://www.ciclavia.org) recently and found this in the FAQ section regarding e-bikes:

Are E-bikes allowed at CicLAvia?

A general rule of thumb for any vehicle is that if it is primarily powered by a person, it's allowed at CicLAvia. If it is solely powered by a motor, it's not. For many people, CicLAvia provides an escape from motorized vehicles for the day - and an opportunity to use active mobility. We want to keep it safe for everyone who participates.

We also allow many e-bikes, but not all. In broad terms, e-bikes are bicycles with a battery-powered “assist” that comes when you pedal or, in some cases, use a throttle. We encourage people to pedal, and to keep street speeds safe for everyone. So if you use a “class 1” e-bike, which is a low-speed (usually maxes out at ~15mph) pedal-assisted bike, you are fine to use it on the route.

If you use “class 2”, which do not require the participant to pedal (they simply turn a throttle), or “class 3” e-bikes, which go faster than other e-bikes, you can only use these on the route if the power is switched off.

So these e-bike uses are allowed:

• Common pedal-assist e-bikes (top speeds: 15mph, Class 1)
• Any e-bikes that have throttles if the power is switched off and the user is pedaling (Class 2)
• Faster e-bikes whether they have throttles or not, if the power is switched off and the user is pedaling (Class 3)

The key point to keep in mind: if you’re primarily pedaling, and keeping with the flow of traffic, you’re fine.

---

On Wed, Oct 11, 2023 at 3:21 PM Gary Cziko <gcz...@gmail.com> wrote:

People,

1. We have heard that the CHP says it can't do anything about out-of-class motorized bikes because they slip through the existing laws: not bikes, not ebikes, not mopeds, not motorized bicycles, not motorcycles.

2. But we also know that local governments can regulate traffic on bike paths, such as Class 1 paths separated from roadways.

So, question:

Can a city create an ordinance banning any powered bike that does not carry a valid Class 1, Class 2 or Class 3 sticker from its bicycle path, such as Manhattan Beach's portion of the L.A. beach bike trail. Could this include fines and/or impoundment of such vehicles?

--Gary

--Gary

--

Gary Cziko ("ZEE-ko"), Ph.D.
Professor Emeritus
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign

Board of Directors, California Association of Bicycle Organizations (CABObike.org)

CyclingSavvy Instructor (CSI)

Board of Directors, American Bicycling Education Association (March 2015 - August 2021)

Expert Witness for Cyclists' Rights

Author:

Without Miracles: Universal Selection Theory and the Second Darwinian Revolution (MIT Press, 1995)

The Things We Do: Using the Lessons of Bernard and Darwin to Understand the What, How, and Why of Our Behavior (MIT Press, 2000).

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[Gary Cziko]

David,

So if you use a “class 1” e-bike, which is a low-speed (usually maxes out at ~15mph) pedal-assisted bike, you are fine to use it on the route.

Class 1 maxes out as it approaches 20 mph not at around 15 mph.

--Gary

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[William Sellin]

Even an idiot can slow down a class III electric bicycle to ride an open street event with pedestrian crowds at a CilLAVia… with or without assist turned on. Only a few dolts race acoustic bicycles or speed through the no-vehicle street take over.

Yes -Class 1 & 2 are ‘assisted’ to 20 mph not 15.

Bill Sellin

714 943-3678

WASe...@gmail.com

"Most of the World 

        is either Downhill or Flat..."

On Oct 24, 2023, at 9:25 AM, Gary Cziko <gcz...@gmail.com> wrote:



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