Entering intersection on green ball and red left-turn arrow

[Gary Cziko]

People,

I encountered a situation driving my car a few days ago that I can't recall ever seeing before.

I entered the left-turn lane of a multi-lane street in LA. As I approached the intersection I saw a green ball signal accompanied by a red left-turn arrow.

I'm guessing that I am legally allowed to enter the intersection (green ball signal) but obviously cannot turn left until the left arrow turns green. So I did start to enter the intersection, but then felt bad about the red-left turn arrow and stopped before completely clearing the stop line.

Is this an accepted signal combo (green ball with red left-turn arrow)? If so, why can I not recall ever seeing this combo before?

And while I believe that I could have legally entered the intersection to wait for the green left-turn arrow, I don't know if I am required to do so. I also recognize that there is no good reason to do so since it is a protected left turn and I will eventually be able to turn left on the next left-turn green arrow cycle.

-- Gary

[Serge Issakov]

Gary!!!

No, you may not enter! Never mind the legalities, practically speaking in all likelihood cross traffic will get their green before you get your green left arrow and you'll be in their way in the intersection. You have a red left arrow because oncoming traffic has a green. There are exceptions, but in situations with separately controlled left turns the order seems to be:

1) green left arrow for your direction and oncoming direction; all others have red

2) red left arrow for your direction and oncoming direction; straight traffic in your direction and oncoming direction get green

3) cross traffic greens

4) goto 1

So if you pull into the intersection during #2, you'll be in trouble during #3.

Anyway:

  

21453.  

(c) A driver facing a steady red arrow signal shall not enter the intersection to make the movement indicated by the arrow and, unless entering the intersection to make a movement permitted by another signal, shall stop at a clearly marked limit line, but if none, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection, or if none, then before entering the intersection, and shall remain stopped until an indication permitting movement is shown.

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=VEH&sectionNum=21453.&article=3.&highlight=true&keyword=red+arrow

Serge

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[Gary Cziko]

Thanks, guys. So my slightly delayed instincts were correct, not my after-incident rationalizations.

Now, the scary question: WHY CAN I NOT RECALL EVER ENCOUNTERING THIS SITUATION BEFORE?

I've been cycling and driving for close to 60 years. Is my memory really falling apart? Or is this situation so rare (or violates traffic engineering guidelines) that it is actually rarely if ever encountered?

[Serge Issakov]

Is it possible the left turn lane allowed through travel too?

What's the intersection (and your direction and destination)?

Serge

[Michael Graff]

In the Bay Area, protected left turn lanes (with red arrow) are the norm at almost every arterial intersection. When I visit SoCal, they're super-rare.

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[Gary Cziko]

Michael,

We have plenty of protected left-turn signals here in LA. I just cannot recall seeing both a green ball and red left-turn arrow at the same time.

Or because traffic can be so bad here in LA, I may have never been at the head of the left-turn queue in this situation so I never had to think about it being stopped farther back by the traffic ahead.

Consider: The green ball says you can enter the intersection. The red left-turn arrow says you cannot make a left turn. So logically, you should be able to enter the intersection (green ball) but not make a left turn (red left-turn arrow). But I certainly understand why this doesn't work logistically or legally.

Maybe I was just in a particularly logical mood when it happened and noticed the logical discrepancy which is what confused me. Overthinking strikes again!

-- Gary

[Serge Issakov]

I see it all the time in San Diego. 

A typical scenario where there is typically much more through traffic than left turning traffic, which is quite common, is you have a green ball and green left arrow simultaneously at first, but then the left arrow goes yellow and red while the ball remains green. Then the oncoming lane gets their green so both oncoming sides are going straight simultaneously.

Serge 

[Gary Cziko]

Yes, of course. Makes total sense traffic-flow wise. I feel silly about this now.

I just had a severe over-thinking logic attack. I wonder what other fun surprises await me as I age!

[John Eldon]

In downtown Encinitas at Vulcan and D we have a "cluster signal." 

Familiar stuff:

Green left arrow: left turn only lane may proceed; all conflicting traffic has red.

Green left arrow with red for straight: left turns allowed from both directions; through and cross traffic wait

Green left arrow with green for straight: left and through in the opposite direction have red

Solid red left arrow: no left turn permitted

New stuff:

Flashing red left arrow: left turn permitted after stop, but yield to oncoming traffic.

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[Charles Nelson]

I suspect that Serge suggested the correct answer ("Is it possible the left turn lane allowed through travel too?"), although I would say it another way. I'm guessing it is a through lane (not a protected left turn lane) from which left turns are sometimes allowed and at other times (like rush hour) are not allowed. The red left arrow is on to indicate that it is a time of day when left turns are not permitted to be made from the (through) lane controlled by that signal. I don't remember having ever seen a green ball/red left turn arrow signal, but I've seen numerous non-signalized intersections where there is a sign saying something like "NO LEFT TURNS 6:00 A.M. TO 9:00 A.M.),and my guess is that what Gary saw is just the signalized intersection version of that kind of sign.