Can sharrows be used alongside class 2 bike lanes?

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Serge Issakov

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Aug 11, 2021, 6:54:09 PM8/11/21
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Yes, I know CA MUTCD 9B.06 01 says BMUFL
(and sharrows per 03) may be used where no bike lanes are present. 


But look at 02.  It’s simply, “where it’s important to inform road users that bicyclists might occupy the travel lane”. No limitation regarding “no bicycle lanes”. 

So if bicyclists are likely to leave a bike lane and occupy the travel lane due to, say, an upcoming place where right turns are authorized, is it compliant to place sharrows in that travel lane adjacent to the bike lane?

Serge  



Pete Penseyres

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Aug 11, 2021, 7:14:55 PM8/11/21
to Cabo Forum, Serge Issakov
Great question Serge.
There is one such sharrow on Carlsbad Blvd SB approaching the State Street roundabout. It is located well before the Class II Bike lane is dashed. No one I have talked to at the City knows when or why it was placed there, but it is helpful for cyclists to be able to merge left early if traffic is backed up and ride slowly rather than pass on the right and then cut into the line.
I'm not sure that was intended, but does that seem reasonable?
Pete


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Judy Frankel

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Aug 11, 2021, 7:22:07 PM8/11/21
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Pete

I that case.it.was.put.at.the.entrance.to the roundabout where there are.no.bike lanes. They ended the bike lane too  late to merge and rather than remove.the.bike lane they added the sharrow.  also there.the bike lane.ends in a class 4 where you can ride up.onto.the "sidewalk" so the sharrow is essentially next to a class 4 at that.point.  bad design


Judy Frankel

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Aug 11, 2021, 7:22:51 PM8/11/21
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No. Just tell them to learn to ride a bike and read cvc 21208.  If.there is a bike lane the road is wide enough to share.  Leave the bike lane where a turn is indicated or to be in the lane corresponding to your direction of travel.  you can't  depend on paint.   Of if there is physical separation it's not a bike lane and can have sharrows.    If.the bike lane ends completely and.the lane is too narrow to share.you can have sharrows.  Both side by side is confusing and not allowed.  Lets not keep adding paint for every situation. That is not the solution.    Stopping.putting bollards in class 2 without notice and fixing class 4 standards is a better solution



Serge Issakov

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Aug 11, 2021, 7:29:21 PM8/11/21
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Judy,

Most of that is beside the point. 

What specifically disallows placing a sharrow next to a bike lane where cyclists are likely to leave the bike lane per 02 and, say, CVC 21208(a)(4)?

I think Pete’s example is a good one too. Placing sharrows at the entrance to a roundabout makes sense, including before the bike lane ends creating an overlap mixing section where cyclists can be expected to be in the bike lane or in the travel lane depending on conditions. 

Serge

Serge Issakov

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Aug 11, 2021, 7:32:29 PM8/11/21
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Yes!  (Pete’s sharrow next to bike lane)


Judy Frankel

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Aug 11, 2021, 7:35:33 PM8/11/21
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That's a bike lane ending. The sharrow is next.to a class 4. That.goes up.onto the sidewalk  Thats no longer a class 2 as a class.2 must end before the sidewalk.  They haven't marked the transition



On Wed, Aug 11, 2021 at 4:32 PM, Serge Issakov

Pete Penseyres

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Aug 11, 2021, 7:40:44 PM8/11/21
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The sharrow in that picture is after the dashed part of the Bike Lane NB, not the one SB.

Serge Issakov

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Aug 11, 2021, 7:50:36 PM8/11/21
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Got it.  Thanks. 


Judy Frankel

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Aug 11, 2021, 8:02:58 PM8/11/21
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That.one.is quiet early but that class 2 so turns into q class 4 at the.roundabout. That is non standard



On Wed, Aug 11, 2021 at 4:50 PM, Serge Issakov

Judy Frankel

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Aug 11, 2021, 8:04:23 PM8/11/21
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That.one.is quiet early but that class 2 so turns into q class 4 at the.roundabout. That is non standard and no MUTCD compliant



Serge Issakov

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Aug 11, 2021, 8:10:59 PM8/11/21
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I know you believe it is non-standard and not MUTCD compliant.  I'm asking for support for that belief.  What, specifically, in the MUTCD makes it non-standard and not compliant?

Serge

Judy Frankel

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Aug 11, 2021, 8:15:14 PM8/11/21
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Its there.  I'd have to google it in the MUTCD and HDM.  What you posted is not on sharrows. Find the part on sharrows, not BMUFL signs.  Another use of a sharrow in MUTCD is to direct cyclist away from an obstacle.   






On Wed, Aug 11, 2021 at 5:11 PM, Serge Issakov

Pete Penseyres

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Aug 11, 2021, 8:30:47 PM8/11/21
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Yes, this is the sharrow to the left of a Class II Bike Lane in the Southbound direction I was referring to .

And although this is drifting off the subject question that Serge posted, I want to point out that the Class 4 label is incorrect. That is and always has been a multi-use Class I path. It is intended and legally used by pedestrians, and every type of mobility device, including bicyclists. It is not for the exclusive use of bicyclists which defines the difference between Class I and IV in California. Both Class I and IV are optional use by bicyclists as are shoulders.
So what we have here is a Class I, a Class II, and a Class III. Something for everyone!
And yes, the Class I is substandard in width at the bridge and it is not well maintained in other locations, and where it ends in the roundabout is...well, open to interpretation.
There are no Class IV bikeways in Carlsbad at this time.

Pete

Judy Frankel

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Aug 11, 2021, 8:34:47 PM8/11/21
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Pete

Yes.  Correct class 1 not class 4. I wasnt.thinking.  But roundabouts around the.county are designed to allow cyclists to use the sidewalk.  And as it is not bike only I guess the sidewalk becomes a class 1, not a class 4.  

William Sellin

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Aug 11, 2021, 11:02:57 PM8/11/21
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Why is Bike Lane dashed intersection line (Detail 39A) at all ? Means vehicles can share the bike lane right? 

Bike lane should end - allowing cyclist to merge into the narrow travel lane before the circle (sharrow) - OR to jump onto side walk to go around outside of the circle…

Bill Sellin

"Most of the World is either Downhill or Flat…"



On Aug 11, 2021, at 4:32 PM, Serge Issakov <serge....@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes!  (Pete’s sharrow next to bike lane)

<IMG_8086.jpg>


On Wed, Aug 11, 2021 at 4:29 PM Serge Issakov <serge....@gmail.com> wrote:
Judy,

Most of that is beside the point. 

What specifically disallows placing a sharrow next to a bike lane where cyclists are likely to leave the bike lane per 02 and, say, CVC 21208(a)(4)?

I think Pete’s example is a good one too. Placing sharrows at the entrance to a roundabout makes sense, including before the bike lane ends creating an overlap mixing section where cyclists can be expected to be in the bike lane or in the travel lane depending on conditions. 

Serge
On Wed, Aug 11, 2021 at 4:22 PM Judy Frankel <judyf...@att.net> wrote:
No. Just tell them to learn to ride a bike and read cvc 21208.  If.there is a bike lane the road is wide enough to share.  Leave the bike lane where a turn is indicated or to be in the lane corresponding to your direction of travel.  you can't  depend on paint.   Of if there is physical separation it's not a bike lane and can have sharrows.    If.the bike lane ends completely and.the lane is too narrow to share.you can have sharrows.  Both side by side is confusing and not allowed.  Lets not keep adding paint for every situation. That is not the solution.    Stopping.putting bollards in class 2 without notice and fixing class 4 standards is a better solution


On Wed, Aug 11, 2021 at 3:54 PM, Serge Issakov
Yes, I know CA MUTCD 9B.06 01 says BMUFL
(and sharrows per 03) may be used where no bike lanes are present. 

<IMG_0083.jpeg>

But look at 02.  It’s simply, “where it’s important to inform road users that bicyclists might occupy the travel lane”. No limitation regarding “no bicycle lanes”. 

So if bicyclists are likely to leave a bike lane and occupy the travel lane due to, say, an upcoming place where right turns are authorized, is it compliant to place sharrows in that travel lane adjacent to the bike lane?

Serge  




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Judy Frankel

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Aug 11, 2021, 11:07:24 PM8/11/21
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I think a dash also signifies that bikes  merge out.  They some times dash them on the right side before an T intersection that only turns left



William Sellin

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Aug 11, 2021, 11:21:23 PM8/11/21
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Back up a few feet in Google & you can see the Class 2 lane marking… Not sure the sidepath is not a Class 1 / Shared Use with Peds (& dogs)  - Class 4 is supposed to be free of peds...  



Bill Sellin

"Most of the World is either Downhill or Flat…"



On Aug 11, 2021, at 4:50 PM, Serge Issakov <serge....@gmail.com> wrote:

Got it.  Thanks. 

<IMG_8087.jpeg>


On Wed, Aug 11, 2021 at 4:40 PM Pete Penseyres <cyclo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
The sharrow in that picture is after the dashed part of the Bike Lane NB, not the one SB.

On Wednesday, August 11, 2021, 04:35:35 PM PDT, Judy Frankel <judyf...@att.net> wrote:


That's a bike lane ending. The sharrow is next.to a class 4. That.goes up.onto the sidewalk  Thats no longer a class 2 as a class.2 must end before the sidewalk.  They haven't marked the transition


On Wed, Aug 11, 2021 at 4:32 PM, Serge Issakov
Yes!  (Pete’s sharrow next to bike lane)

<IMG_8086.jpg>


On Wed, Aug 11, 2021 at 4:29 PM Serge Issakov <serge....@gmail.com> wrote:
Judy,

Most of that is beside the point. 

What specifically disallows placing a sharrow next to a bike lane where cyclists are likely to leave the bike lane per 02 and, say, CVC 21208(a)(4)?

I think Pete’s example is a good one too. Placing sharrows at the entrance to a roundabout makes sense, including before the bike lane ends creating an overlap mixing section where cyclists can be expected to be in the bike lane or in the travel lane depending on conditions. 

Serge
On Wed, Aug 11, 2021 at 4:22 PM Judy Frankel <judyf...@att.net> wrote:
No. Just tell them to learn to ride a bike and read cvc 21208.  If.there is a bike lane the road is wide enough to share.  Leave the bike lane where a turn is indicated or to be in the lane corresponding to your direction of travel.  you can't  depend on paint.   Of if there is physical separation it's not a bike lane and can have sharrows.    If.the bike lane ends completely and.the lane is too narrow to share.you can have sharrows.  Both side by side is confusing and not allowed.  Lets not keep adding paint for every situation. That is not the solution.    Stopping.putting bollards in class 2 without notice and fixing class 4 standards is a better solution


On Wed, Aug 11, 2021 at 3:54 PM, Serge Issakov
Yes, I know CA MUTCD 9B.06 01 says BMUFL
(and sharrows per 03) may be used where no bike lanes are present. 

<IMG_0083.jpeg>

But look at 02.  It’s simply, “where it’s important to inform road users that bicyclists might occupy the travel lane”. No limitation regarding “no bicycle lanes”. 

So if bicyclists are likely to leave a bike lane and occupy the travel lane due to, say, an upcoming place where right turns are authorized, is it compliant to place sharrows in that travel lane adjacent to the bike lane?

Serge  




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Judy Frankel

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Aug 11, 2021, 11:23:07 PM8/11/21
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Yes. We've all.confirmed its a class 1. A 2 way class one  and a class 2 bike lane



Michael Graff

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Aug 12, 2021, 12:13:18 AM8/12/21
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Since you mentioned it, has anybody found a Class IV that doesn’t have pedestrians also using it? It seems Class IV ends up being treated in real life as Class I, no matter what the rules are supposed to be.
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