Trucks and bike conflicts -- basic information
Alan Forkosh
Gary Cziko
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "CABOforum" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to caboforum+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to cabo...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/caboforum.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Gary Cziko ("ZEE-ko"), PhD
Professor Emeritus, Educational Psychology
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
CyclingSavvy Instructor (CSI)
John Forester
The video presentation and its written commentary are clearly an
attorney's argument accusing the truck driver. When viewed in
those terms its defects are easy to identify. For example, it
shows a posed view out through the truck's right-side window, with
the claim that the trucker should have seen the cyclist. I think
that with the kind of view shown it would be difficult to identify
a cyclist. The text also states that the bike lane gave the
cyclist the right to consider that she had the right of way
through the intersection. That is manifestly incorrect; that the
bike lane gives people that impression is precisely why bike lanes
should not exist. Bike lanes contradict standard traffic
engineering and driving knowledge, thus producing hazards that
otherwise should not exist. And now, in California, we have
governmental adoption of designs (NACTO) that contradict standard
traffic-engineering and driving knowledge to produce just more of
these hazards than should ever exist. Obeying the rules of the
road for drivers of vehicles is best for both motorists and for
cyclists, rather than ill-considered designs that attempt to "make
cycling safe" by guiding people who hate the rules contrary to
those rules.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to caboforum+...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to cabo...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/caboforum.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
-- John Forester, MS, PE Bicycle Transportation Engineer 7585 Church St, Lemon Grove, CA 91945 619-644-5481, fore...@johnforester.com
volar....@gmail.com
It's physically impossible for (longer) trucks to make right turns 'as close as practicable to the curb edge' w/o running over the sidewalk and possibly causing PEDESTRIAN fatalities.
I guess Bob Shanteau (and relevant authorities) forgot about the special case of trucks when he 'helped' craft CVC 21717 and 21209. Trucks have to move to the far left (most times moving across left lanes) prior to initiating right turn in order to clear the turn.
Jim Baross
--
volar....@gmail.com
Failure to consider the special case of (long) vehicles needing to make wide turns (from far left lanes) in such laws is at the root of confusion for everyone involved, policemen, prosecutors, road users and attorneys.
Suppose you are driving on a multi-lane road where bicyclists aren't allowed. What provision is there to allow you to cut off other drivers on your right when you are attempting to make a right hand turn?
If such a maneuver is not legal to perform on a multi-lane hwy. consisting only of motorized vehicles, why is such a maneuver considered acceptable if there is a bike lane on the right, which after all, is just a travel lane (albeit consisting only bikes, not motorized vehicles)?
Serge Issakov
F Lehnerz
Serge Issakov
volar....@gmail.com
(A clear legal standard for right turns of large would be "large vehicles whose turning radius exceed x feet must make right turns such that they clear the corner curb by a minimum of y feet.")
The frame of reference to the curbside (for long vehicles) is also wrong. In preparation for the turn the truck driver makes a serpertine movement from the curbside lane to the left lane. (The turn radius of such vehicles is too large to accomplish such a feat from the rightmost-lane given urban street geometrics.)
Where in xVC is such a maneuver (cross left lane in order to turn right) considered legal from a STANDARDS perspective, namely, not using fuzzy words like 'practicable'?
Serge Issakov
volar....@gmail.com
3 years ago a high school student got killed under similar circumstances in Cupertino. IIRC Cupertino restricted hours such trucks could operate on local roads.
That's the right question to ask. If trailer trucks have so many blind spots, why are they considered safe enough to operate on streets? And if their turning radius is so large that they must cross over to the left lane to make a right (not currently legal in xVC), what business do they have on local streets? At the very minimum restrict their hours to between 12AM to 5AM.
Serge Issakov
volar....@gmail.com
Try that with a trailer truck.
Serge Issakov
Never let your front wheel pass the rear bumper of a vehicle to your left in a situation where they can or might turn right. #BasicPrinciple
You can pass smartcars and even vans safely in the left lane because then don't need to veer left prior to making a right turn.
Try that with a trailer truck.
John Forester
Here I stick my neck out. The video titled "The Killing of Anita
Kurmann" should have been titled "The Suicide of Anita Kurmann".
I do not know the subject of Kurmann's highest degree; it's
relevant only that it indicates education, perseverance, and
intelligence. That such a person should have been led to
unintentional suicide is a clear condemnation of the American
policy regarding bicycle transportation. That policy produces both
ignorant cyclists (such as Kurmann) and road markings reflecting
ignorance and the desire for ignorant cyclists (such as those at
the collision site). Instead of retaining cyclists as drivers of
vehicles (as they had been since about 1890), America succumbed to
Motordom's demand that motoring be made more convenient by
demoting cyclists to a status thought suitable for children unable
to obey the rules of the road. And then carrying out this policy
by frightening cyclists only of same-direction motor traffic and
denying them training in obeying the rules of the road. Therefore
we have Kurmann, ignorant that the rules of the road apply to
cyclists (she probably knew the rules of the road, but believed
that they don't apply to cyclists), being misled by road markings
intended for such ignorant cyclists, riding into her unintentional
suicide.
The fact that American Bicycling Organizations (look at the
authors of the video attempting to vindicate Kurmann and put the
blame on the truck driver) support this American anti-cyclist
policy because they believe that this will produce more cyclists
(less, of course, those sacrificed, as was Kurmann, by the
implementation of this policy), condemns them just as strongly as
Motordom should be condemned.
The only protection American cyclists have against this
anti-cyclist public policy is our legal right to obey the rules of
the road for drivers of vehicles, which right has long been under
attack by both Motordom and the bicycle inferiority advocates.
Those American cyclists who recognize that their safety and
legality rest in their right to obey the rules of the road for
drivers of vehicles, have to resist the abrogation of that right,
generally driven by the phobic fear of same-direction motor
traffic that was created by selfish Motordom and later adopted by
cyclist-inferiority advocates. Preservation of our right to obey
the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles is today's prime
duty for American cyclists.
Serge Issakov
The problem, of course, was choosing to continue passing a truck on its right where it could and might be turned right, because it was turned right.
-- John Forester, MS, PE Bicycle Transportation Engineer
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "CABOforum" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to caboforum+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to cabo...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/caboforum.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
-- John Forester, MS, PE Bicycle Transportation Engineer
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "CABOforum" group.
volar....@gmail.com
Dr. Kurmann was a post-doc at BU, meaning she'd just recently moved stateside from Switzerland. As such, she could not have benefitted from any American bike-related education, even if there were any to speak of.
That you'd take advantage of a deceased visitor, ignoring baic facts, to jump on your favorite soap box well demonstrates your odiousness.
F Lehnerz
It’s pretty easy to pick and follow though, especially in cities with lots of bike lanes and bicyclists.
MaggieO
From: Serge Issakov <serge....@gmail.com>
To: John Forester <fore...@johnforester.com>
Cc: Cabo Forum <cabo...@googlegroups.com>; John Allen <jsa...@bikexprt.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2018 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: [CABOforum] Trucks and bike conflicts -- basic information
-- John Forester, MS, PE Bicycle Transportation Engineer 7585 Church St, Lemon Grove, CA 91945 619-644-5481, fore...@johnforester.com--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "CABOforum" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to caboforum+unsubscribe@ googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to cabo...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/ group/caboforum.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/ optout.
-- John Forester, MS, PE Bicycle Transportation Engineer 7585 Church St, Lemon Grove, CA 91945 619-644-5481, fore...@johnforester.com
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "CABOforum" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to caboforum+unsubscribe@ googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to cabo...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/ group/caboforum.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/ optout.
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "CABOforum" group.
volar....@gmail.com
I have lived in Cambridge. Collectively, Boston and Cambridge (Greater Boston Area, GBA) has the highest density of universities in the United States. This means there are thousands of foreign students and scholars/leaving arriving each year. It is literally one gigantic school zone.
Boston and Cambridge are also among the oldest cities in the country. As far as I know, they've never had a cataclysmic conflagration that required complete razing and rebuilding, like San Francisco. Downtown Boston still retains a hub-and-spoke street plan. This means the width of streets (street scale) is based on horse-drawn carts in the 1700s. When I lived in Cambridge, Haymarket in Boston was still operating as an open-air market, complete with carts (but without horses). Put simply, from a street layout perspective, GBA is as close at it gets to a baroque European city in the United States.
If there's anywhere where cycling should flourish in the US, it should be here (blisteringly cold winters notwithstanding). Forester's rant regarding cyclist education would never work because of the yearly flood of foreign students/scholars.
What's needed are clearly written laws, where responsibility can be clearly ascertained, not BS like 'as close to the road edge as practicable,' which completely ignores the existence of large turn radius vehicles, and reek of dilettantism and back-room compromises. Clear laws get incorporated into driver's manuals which will naturally disseminate to the general public. That's how the general public gets educated regarding roles and responsibilities as road users regardless which mode they use for travel.
Trailer trucks have been progressively getting longer (thanks to transportation-industry lobbying). Even the shortest articulated trucks can not safely turn into these streets. Dr. Kurmann studied and worked in Basel and Bern in Switzerland. Those of you interested can look at Google Streetview for the streetscape of those cities. The first thing you notice is there is no curbside parking allowed. Then you notice how many people are on the streets biking, and that there are relatively few motorized vehicles on the streets. Nobody would even think of driving articulated trailer trucks within the city centers there.
One can only imagine what Dr. Kurmann's Swiss parents think of the US vehicular barbarism and violence perpetrated upon their daughter as shown in that surveillance video, and how all of us collectively here are responsible for her death and countless others, such as Ethan Wong of Cupertino, crushed by trailer trucks, complicit in accepting the status quo. (None of you even asked why Boston and Cambridge had weight/length restrictions for commercial vehicles on their streets; you reflexively thought such trailer trucks had a right to be there.)
At least Cupertino took the logical and sensible step of completely banning trailer trucks from school zones, and limiting hours of operation for trailer trucks elsewhere within city limits after the death of Ethan Wong. In both the Kurmann and Wong collisions, the drivers of the rigs were (apparently) not aware they'd run over someone. How can such vehicles not be considered menaces to society at large on local streets?
What did the Boston/Cambridge city council & traffic engineers do after the Kurmann collision? They put up flex bollards along the left edge of the bike lane on Mass Ave., erected “turning vehicles yield to peds and bike" signs (modified R10-15) at intersections, and moved the bus stop to the far end of the intersection, over the objections of the bike community there. As far as I know Boston, Cambridge, and MA made no changes/restrictions to the operation of such trucks on local roads subsequent to the Kurmann collision.
The relevant FHWA working groups and NCUTCD does not have the courage to admit that UVC completely ignored the existence large turn radius vehicles, causing confusion from law enforcement, judges, prosecutors, and road users.
John Forester
served on a California State Cyclist Education committee (whose work was
prevented from implementation by the California Highway Patrol), I
created the Effective Cycling program, I have kept the Effective Cycling
book up to date, and the Effective Cycling Instructor's Manual, and I
have participated in many reviews of cyclist training programs. Please,
Volare, since you choose to criticize my work, please provide the
statements that you consider erroneous, so that I might correct them.
I lived and worked in Cambridge MA for several years. Two addresses I
remember were 33 Lee Street and 99 Magazine Street. And, when I was
there I did much cycling.
Volare demands that "What's needed are clearly written laws, where
indefensible, generally when some politician inserts his prejudices, but
those parts that affect everybody are well-thought-out through trial and
error. So, Volare, since you act like you know so much about this
subject, provide your version of a clearly written statute regarding
vehicles turning right.
Volare describes the Kurmann collision as "vehicular barbarism ...
perpetrated upon [Kurmann]". The rest of Volare's comments therefore
state that our truck length regulations constitute 'vehicular
barbarism'. We need better advice than Volare's.
MaggieO
Doug Williams
volar....@gmail.com
You failed to notice the initial “anomaly” that Finkbeiner got struck from BEHIND by a cyclist on the Am. River Pkwy. Trail. You failed to collate all known reports of the incident and didn't even bother to find out why Sacramento ADA didn't charge the bicyclist involved. I was the only person on that thread who provided relevant links and did the work.
This is observation, attention to detail, due diligence, & critical thinking 101. You compounded your error by suggesting the bicyclist's phone should have been unlocked, and Finkbeiner was denied justice before you collated all the facts.
Forester at least had the decency to admit he was “mislead” by the initial Sac. Bee report (later on in the thread). Do you really think your actions on that thread revealed due deliberation, never mind traits required of an engineer?
You can rest easy that I have no interest in debating anything with you. There isn't much you can do or say to change my impression of you at this point. But I will respond to your posts if I want to shed light on certain points you raise.
As for my anonymity, you can consult with Jim Baross on that. I hereby give Baross my permission to share that correspondence privately with you, if he hasn't already done so.
F Lehnerz
Nobody asked because it’s not relevant. Bicyclists are killed all the time in right hook crashes whether the motor vehicle involved is allowed to be there or not.
volar....@gmail.com
You might want to review bike collision statistics. According to LAB (using data from FARS), rear end fatal collisions is 40%, right hooks 6%.
http://bikeleague.org/sites/default/files/EBC_report_final.pdf
Given the MA law and above stats, do you think Forester is rational in his fact-free, context-free, and relevance-free rant?
Why do you think he goes out of his way ranting about sidepaths? Have you ever read Dr. Ken Cross' original comments re. sidepaths (still avail on the apbp.org web site), and how Forester has completely perverted/misrepresented that research?
[quote]
Those American cyclists who recognize that their safety and legality rest in their right to obey the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles, have to resist the abrogation of that right, generally driven by the phobic fear of same-direction motor traffic that was created by selfish Motordom and later adopted by cyclist-inferiority advocates.
[/quote]
F Lehnerz
http://john-s-allen.com/blog/?p=6874
http://iamtraffic.org/news-views/joining-the-chorus-of-ignorance/
MaggieO
volar....@gmail.com
I haven't been in Boston in quite some time, so I don't know how much a problem illegal parking/standing there is currently in bike lanes.
What I can tell you is in NYC, illegal parking (in bike lanes) was the primary rationale for building protected bike lanes. It reduces weave/merge issues for bicyclists having to go around obstacles as well as pickup/dropoff 'turbulence'. These operations expose cyclists to rear end and side swipes.
Let's be honest here. In the Kurmann case, let's pretend Boston only has American natives (no recent foreign arrivals), no bicyclists. A pedestrian steps onto the crosswalk (since he has the green light). Given how the trucker made the turn, do you think said pedestrian would had a chance of making it unscathed across the sidewalk? What laws would you cite as a prosecutor or defense attorney?
volar....@gmail.com
Ask Allen how well sensor technology has worked out so far in Europe (especially in the UK) on artics, and whether it's made any measurable statistical decline in bike/truck right hooks.
F Lehnerz
http://john-s-allen.com/blog/?p=7314
The post I listed above from John Allen’s blog mentions the 40 percent stat in the lower half of the post. Garmin used it in the advertising for a radar type product they sell as an add on to their cycling GPS units. Of course a mirror does the same thing and doesn’t require batteries or space on a seat post.
Sure if a cyclist is hit from behind their fault or not many will assign them fault but that has a lot to do with the cultural belief/ignorance bicycles don’t belong on the roadway with motor vehicles. The silly irony is that the bicycle infrastructure complex crowd even as supposed pro bicycling people promote this idea even though it doesn’t benefit bicycling as a whole. Meanwhile some of us try our hardest to mop up this mess and promote the idea we can all coexist fairly well on most roadways. Our ideas don’t sell fancy bike facilities or more bikes though.
The second link I posted goes really in depth though re the 40 percent figure.
If some New York cyclists really want “protected” lanes to keep those pesky cars from double parking in them that’s one thing but how hard is it to see these obstacles from awhile back, use an arm signal and shoulder check and negotiate for a gap in traffic to pass that obstacle? Don’t move into the travel lane until you’re sure you’ve yielded to those already using it.
F Lehnerz
Jim Baross
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "CABOforum" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to caboforum+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
volar....@gmail.com
Who are you to assert "The silly irony is that the bicycle infrastructure complex crowd even as supposed pro bicycling people promote this idea even though it doesn’t benefit bicycling as a whole." in light of the above stats?
I used to be a bike messenger in NYC. I don't insist every bicyclist ride like me. Why do you insist every bicyclist on the road ride like you and pass a vehicular cycling purity test?
volar....@gmail.com
Like I stated earlier, post-Kurmann collision traffic engineers installed flex bollards, erected "turning vehicles yield to peds and bikes" signs, and moved the bus stop to the far side of the intersection.
I suppose the Boston traffic engineers thought of the bollards as a curb extension. (I'm not saying I agree with that as a good solution for that intersection.)
I can only wonder if Allen has read the latest version of the MA driver's handbook. It all but tells bicyclists to GTFO the road when a truck is around (but not in so many words). Never mind by the time the cyclist realizes this the truck would already have pulled up either along-side or directly behind the cyclist.
Advanced stop lines also don't work in front of semis. In the UK there are countless reports of motorcyclists run over by truckers (because the truckers were perched so high and the cabin obstructed the view right in front of them at a stop light).
Serge Issakov
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3511475,-71.0897,3a,75y,191.45h,68.23t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sUcZIw6L5ps3pv03yvweYIA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3507867,-71.0894739,3a,75y,296.42h,60.66t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sQZMGxBHaB4LpqIaKDNtLKw!2e0!5s20140701T000000!7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3511158,-71.0896406,3a,75y,209.64h,77.27t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s7aKqNHMnG2ypw75t1msXxA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3510307,-71.0895988,3a,75y,208.42h,76.02t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sBVpWtURdB38xdQk9AP9ssg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Serge
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "CABOforum" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to caboforum+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
F Lehnerz
Sure if a cyclist is hit from behind their fault or not many will assign them fault but that has a lot to do with the cultural belief/ignorance bicycles don’t belong on the roadway with motor vehicles.
Pete van Nuys
As one of the founding companies in the Advocacy Industrial
Complex, Alta has made $-millions pedaling "infra" and will
undoubtedly make more. And I simply don't see the increase in
bicycle use by Americans at large. Sales figures suggest a
decrease in bicycle use. Electric bikes are the happy exception
for the bicycle industry. Ebikes are already bringing older
Americans back to biking in numbers far greater than paint and
bollards apparently are.
Bicycle mode share measured on select streets-- those with expensive new infra-- are highly questionable. My experience as a commuter, bike shop owner, and advocate in SoCal suggest that people already riding find those shiny new facilities very attractive and change their routes and behaviors 'cause they've got a new "special" place just for them. It looks like an increase, but it's not.
But no mother in 2018 is gonna let her kid ride to school because
they just put an extra 2 feet of paint on the street. Until
there's a wall between that kid and the cars stretching from her
driveway to the campus, it ain't gonna happen. And the whole
"stressful and dangerous" excuse offered in public opinion surveys
the Badvocates are so fond of-- it's just that, an excuse from
fat, lazy Americans, victims of a culture that reinforces fat,
lazy, and entitled.
Helps take the sentence before that into context too:
Sure if a cyclist is hit from behind their fault or not many will assign them fault but that has a lot to do with the cultural belief/ignorance bicycles don’t belong on the roadway with motor vehicles.
The reason I say it doesn't help bicycling as a whole is because most places won't be served by bicycle infrastructure of any kind, ever. The Alta's and O'Tooles of the world don't care about bicycling safety, they care about building their low-auto, high-density projects which just happen to involve adding bicycles because it's a tool they believe people can use to get away from using private automobiles. They don't promote the idea that with a bit of education and defensive driving skills, it's possible to go a lot of places quite safely without the need of any special bike projects. Nobody has to lose a travel lane or parallel parking spots either. I'll leave a little present from Alta below and you can really see how they don't help at all.
I'm not insisting everybody ride like me, which in fact you have no idea how I ride anyways. However, what's so bad about having the skill of negotiating with traffic and making lane changes? That's an easy way to deal with vehicles blocking bike lanes, and maybe even prevent a right hook at intersections!Having that skill would help any bicyclist using the many roads that don't have any special "protected" bikeways too.
That lane not being right turn only because of the bus stop makes sense though but I'm with Serge's opinion that intersection is a death trap though. It's equally reckless the city installed a door zone bike lane after the intersection though, but anything to bring up those ridership figures though, right?
On Tuesday, January 30, 2018 at 10:49:19 AM UTC-8, volar....@gmail.com wrote:
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "CABOforum" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to caboforum+...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to cabo...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/caboforum.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Pete van Nuys Exec. Dir. Orange County Bicycle Coalition ECI, LCI, CSI 949 492 5737
volar....@gmail.com
You, Jim Baross, as well as a significant portion of Caboforum have a particular neurosis you can't bring yourselves to admit. If you want to ensure bicyclists right to use full lane then work to get CA law changed (as it was in MA). Don't twist yourselves into pretzels avoiding calling bike facilities "bike lanes." It's a ridiculous way to behave. I believe that's something ALL bike orgs in CA can work together to change.
I suggest YOU take a Cyclingsavvy course to learn why it's dangerous to merge and weave around obstacles/parked vehicles. Much better to lane position yourself in a (constant) straight line to the left of standing vehicles at all times. It's obvious from your questions that you've never ridden a bike in NYC.
volar....@gmail.com
But it really makes one wonder how frequently collisions (of any kind) happen at that intersection given its “revision history.”
Apparently the trucking company settled out of court with the Kurmann family.
Serious question:
Given there was a bus stop on Mass Ave. at that intersection, suppose a bus is just about to pull away from the bus stop as the truck pulled up alongside and initiated the jughandle turn. Which vehicle would have the right of way?
volar....@gmail.com
I really had to restrain myself from reponding to your post to see what the overall reaction was from forum members to your proposal.
I think your proposal is sensible.
I will now let the cat out of the bag, namely your proposal is exactly the approach NYC (NACTO!) took, you will no doubt be lynched for promoting and endorsing such heresy. :)
volar....@gmail.com
I really suggest you step out of your OC bubble. Palo Alto is literally a sea of bikes just before school starts and when it lets out.
F Lehnerz
“Let me ask you the opposite question: What's so bad about having quadruled the bike ridership in NYC regardless where in the roadway those cyclists ride?”
Not sure who you’re addressing this question to but here’s a stab.
There’s nothing wrong with more bicycle riders whether they’re getting into it for a hobby or for transportation. However, how many of these new users know what to do when the bikeway ends? How many are aware of all the potential hazards bicycling facilities of all types are well known to have? Will they ride in the door zone or to the right of right turning traffic because what’s where the city is basically telling them to ride based on the design of the bike lane? "Follow patterns, not paint" isn't something bicyclists learn unless they get educated.
Will they defend the rights of people who want or have to use a bicycle to travel places where these facilities don’t exist? Often the “I ride a bike too” crowd is even more critical of bicyclists operating safely following the rules of the road for drivers than non cyclists are.
NYC may be attracting more riders with its infrastructure, although some argue that’s not really true, but if all these users still assume “roads are for cars,” and carry on with the same blabber we’re trying to debunk then it’s not really worth it for the rest of us -especially those who don’t live in the cities where these facilities are being installed. Do you think Alta and O’Toole care about the rest of us and those who live in rural areas or small towns? Their sales pitch is that it’s only safe to ride when they come in and build their fancy infrastructure!
NYC is a notoriously difficult (and expensive) place to own a car and many residents who previously relied on public transit are growing more and more frustrated with the decaying system and overcrowding. Perhaps this fact and the introduction of bike share explains any increases in bike use?
“You, Jim Baross, as well as a significant portion of Caboforum have a particular neurosis you can't bring yourselves to admit. If you want to ensure bicyclists right to use full lane then work to get CA law changed (as it was in MA). Don't twist yourselves into pretzels avoiding calling bike facilities "bike lanes." It's a ridiculous way to behave. I believe that's something ALL bike orgs in CA can work together to change.”
Again, we don’t know who you are addressing...but you probably don’t have the qualifications to diagnose people’s mental health over the Internet.
Getting the laws changed is difficult, and many of the people here have probably tried it.
Calling the different facilities by their correct name is appropriate especially when most of the population assumes any space “to the right” is a “bike lane.” Bicyclists who use the travel lanes for legitimate traffic movements when there’s a “cycletrack” or even a true Class II bike lane nearby risk harassment for not using them even if their use is unsafe or doesn’t serve their needs.
“I suggest YOU take a Cyclingsavvy course to learn why it's dangerous to merge and weave around obstacles/parked vehicles. Much better to lane position yourself in a (constant) straight line to the left of standing vehicles at all times. It's obvious from your questions that you've never ridden a bike in NYC.”
If you’re talking to me, well I’ve already taken CS. If you’ve addressed that to Pete, then he’s in luck because there’s one next month in Irvine. Why do you seem to think that careful lane changing and negotiating for gaps is somehow similar to weaving in and out out lanes unpredictability like say maybe a stereotypical bike messenger. There’s a huge difference and what I’m suggesting is far from dangerous when done correctly.
To bring up John Allen again - he recently made a video riding down some streets in Philadelphia using a bike lane off and on. He made the video in response to a right hook fatality (those NEVER happen though, do they?). Of course someone criticized his riding and sure enough accused him of weaving in and out of the bike lanes. The conversation and video are here:
http://john-s-allen.com/blog/?page_id=7323
Is Allen operating in a such a way that’s dangerous? No because he’s adjusting his speed to match motor traffic and he’s either looking for gaps or negotiating with other road users for one. What I’m suggesting is no different and any bicycle rider would find learning this skill to be worthwhile.
Out of curiosity, what makes NYC so special? Are the drivers there not capable of negotiating for gaps or signaling? Do they operate on a set of rules for drivers of vehicles different from the rest of the country?
“Prevailing against the city would be difficult. The plaintiff would have to demonstrate the city (a) knew or should have known that particular road configuration was dangerous (namely, had prior notice), and (b) did not take steps to mitigate that danger. That the intersection was reconfigured so frequently (per Google Streetview history) and just prior to the collision makes it unlikely for the plaintiff to prevail on (b). Additionally, the city can use design immunity as an affirmative defense. “
This is why bicycling advocates need to make as much noise as possible when cities (and AASHTO, Alta, O’Toole, Streetsblob, LAB, etc) promote infrastructure that has obvious operational hazards for bicyclists following them.
“Serious question:
Given there was a bus stop on Mass Ave. at that intersection, suppose a bus is just about to pull away from the bus stop as the truck pulled up alongside and initiated the jughandle turn. Which vehicle would have the right of way?”
Were all your other questions a joke?
“Jim,
I really had to restrain myself from reponding to your post to see what the overall reaction was from forum members to your proposal.
I think your proposal is sensible.
I will now let the cat out of the bag, namely your proposal is exactly the approach NYC (NACTO!) took, you will no doubt be lynched for promoting and endorsing such heresy. :)”
Jim’s idea also includes enforcement and education. NACTO only calls for the bollards, signage, and the bike-specific traffic signal.
“I really suggest you step out of your OC bubble. Palo Alto is literally a sea of bikes just before school starts and when it lets out.”
While awesome, Palo Alto is one city. The bubble of Orange County isn't so much of a bubble after all considering most of the country has high dependence on automobiles and today's parents are increasingly controlling of their children.
Pete van Nuys
Subject: Re: [CABOforum] Trucks and bike conflicts -- basic information |
F Lehnerz
volar....@gmail.com
I'm not asking you for an accounting of the NYC bike ridership quadrupling. The thrust of my question is, if you think (NYC) riders in protected bike lanes are vulnerable to right hooks, why hasn't absolute KSI increased after installation of protected bike lanes, given the quadrupling bike ridership?
What makes you think no turns on red in Boston aren't enforced? Both truck and Kurmann had the green light.
I frankly don't give a FF about Alta or any other “landscaping” entity. They are non-sequitur to this thread; rubes like you and a few others here love to bring them up. Perhaps you think I work for/with Alta. To put this to bed once and for all, I assure you I'm in no way affiliated with Alta or that industry (whatever their proper industrial classification is).
You are so laughably uninformed regarding the real players, just this once I'm going to clue you in a bit, so perhaps you'll realize how much you've been indoctrinated. (I don't use that word lightly.)
I suggest you read Jeannette Sadik Khan's book “Streetfight,” to get yourself somewhat informed which entities were actually responsible engineering protected bike lanes in NYC. [Hint: Alta and O'Toole had no involvement.] Alta (and its contractor) was, however, responsible for the bikeshare portion, namely rack operations, payment processing, bike maintenance, etc. Suffice to say Sadik Khan cusses them out for incompetence.
Re. Decay: Has it ever occurred to you roads ARE infrastructure? Do you think anyone enjoys riding bikes over rough potholed roads?? (Snowy Winters==Potholes) When it came time for NYC to repave its roads, that was their prime opportunity to do any restriping/reconfiguration. Where do you think they got the money for that repaving?
NYC opened its first protected bike lane in 2001. NYC Bikeshare went live in 5/2013 (after the quadrupling). Without protected bike lanes and/or smooth roads, do you think NYC Bikeshare would have possibly be the success it is?
How do you think Palo Alto and OC got they way they are? You might want to look up “Ellen Fletcher bike Palo Alto” in Google. After reading Ellen Fletcher's bio you will be able to understand “virtuous/vicious cycle” and Palo Alto vs. OC Incidentally, TJMC was the consultant for the last set of bike infrastructure in Palo Alto (Arastedero). AFAIK Alta or Toole had no involvement.
If you want to rant, at least be informed. I'm aware Alta makes a lot of presentations, but even in LA's “Great Streets” they weren't used on the engineering side; they did counts of peds/bikes/vehicles, collating collision reports, making community outreach materials, etc.
Considering “Protected Bikeways Act” is has been CA law for a few years now, you (so-called) rural (San Diego?) dwellers are just going to have to fend for yourselves, aren't you? You think urban bike advocates didn't have to work hard to get that law passed?
And I ask you (F Lehnerz) again, who elected you to represent all bicyclists and (now) czar of urban development/lifestyle in CA? I certainly didn't.
I wish you guys best of luck swaying any legislators when using language like “advocacy-industrial complex.”
Serge Issakov
Serge Issakov
Serge
John Forester
pages. Many years ago, Ellen and I ran for a CABO office. We had a
lengthy email public discussion. The discussion largely concerned
particular designs of bikeway. It demonstrated that Ellen had no idea of
how traffic operated and how cyclists should operate with it. Ellen won
the election.
Ellen was a forerunner of the traffic ignorants who have managed to
inflict sidepaths on cyclists, the triumph of phobic fear and traffic
ignorance in the American cycling world. In view of that triumph of
phobic fear and traffic ignorance, all cyclists who understand the
benefits of obeying the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles need
to devote attention and effort to protect our legal right to obey those
rules despite the opposing political triumph of phobic fear and traffic
ignorance. If we don't manage to maintain our right to obey those rules,
it will disappear under the political forces that now control American
bicycling policy.
--
John Forester, MS, PE
Bicycle Transportation Engineer
7585 Church St, Lemon Grove, CA 91945
619-644-5481, fore...@johnforester.com
F Lehnerz
Scott Mace
I happened upon the scene minutes later, taking the same route as the cyclist. The bike lane there was of substandard width and filled with rocks and other debris. I believe the speed limit is 45 mph but traffic roiutinely goes much faster. The cyclist, Scott Harvey of Boulder Creek, worked at Lockheed Martin in Sunnyvale. I didn't pry by approaching witnesses, but there was another cyclist on the ground there in tears all shook up. Like Harvey, he looked like he was in his mid-fifties.
Predictably, there has been no real outrage from the local bicycle advocacy organization other than the usual call for segregated cycletracks and road diets in the area. No one simply asked for the speed limit to be reduced, or for the existing bike lane to be brought up to standard.
Since I happened upon the scene so soon after, I was beyond shook and outraged, and would participate in a ride of silence upon Caribbean if anyone organized such an event.
I don't have all the answers for what happened here, but I can say with confidence that turning conflicts and intersections had absolutely nothing to do with this tragedy. The road there was fast, straight and wide, however deficient the bike lane was.
Here are two stories about the fatality.
https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/02/01/sunnyvale-bicyclist-killed-in-collision-with-big-rig/
https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/02/02/sunnyvale-boulder-creek-man-identified-as-bicyclist-killed-in-big-rig-collision/
I've found no further coverage about the cause of the collision.
I grew up in Sunnyvale, and I weep for my hometown.
Scott Mace
At 08:55 PM 1/31/2018, F Lehnerz wrote:
“Let me ask you the opposite question:  What's so bad about having quadruled the bike ridership in NYC regardless where in the roadway those cyclists ride?â€
Not sure who you’re addressing this question to but here’s a stab.Â
There’s nothing wrong with more bicycle riders whether they’re getting into it for a hobby or for transportation. However, how many of these new users know what to do when the bikeway ends? How many are aware of all the potential hazards bicycling facilities of all types are well known to have? Will they ride in the door zone or to the right of right turning traffic because what’s where the city is basically telling them to ride based on the design of the bike lane? "Follow patterns, not paint" isn't something bicyclists learn unless they get educated.Â
Will they defend the rights of people who want or have to use a bicycle to travel places where these facilities don’t exist? Often the “I ride a bike too†crowd is even more critical of bicyclists operating safely following the rules of the road for drivers than non cyclists are.Â
NYC may be attracting more riders with its infrastructure, although some argue that’s not really true, but if all these users still assume “roads are for cars,†and carry on with the same blabber we’re trying to debunk then it’s not really worth it for the rest of us -especially those who don’t live in the cities where these facilities are being installed. Do you think Alta and O’Toole care about the rest of us and those who live in rural areas or small towns? Their sales pitch is that it’s only safe to ride when they come in and build their fancy infrastructure!Â
NYC is a notoriously difficult (and expensive) place to own a car and many residents who previously relied on public transit are growing more and more frustrated with the decaying system and overcrowding. Perhaps this fact and the introduction of bike share explains any increases in bike use?
“You, Jim Baross, as well as a significant portion of Caboforum have a particular neurosis you can't bring yourselves to admit.  If you want to ensure bicyclists right to use full lane then work to get CA law changed (as it was in MA).  Don't twist yourselves into pretzels avoiding calling bike facilities "bike lanes."  It's a ridiculous way to behave.  I believe that's something ALL bike orgs in CA can work together to change.â€
Again, we don’t know who you are addressing...but you probably don’t have the qualifications to diagnose people’s mental health over the Internet.Â
Getting the laws changed is difficult, and many of the people here have probably tried it.Â
Calling the different facilities by their correct name is appropriate especially when most of the population assumes any space “to the right†is a “bike lane.†Bicyclists who use the travel lanes for legitimate traffic movements when there’s a “cycletrack†or even a true Class II bike lane nearby risk harassment for not using them even if their use is unsafe or doesn’t serve their needs.Â
“I suggest YOU take a Cyclingsavvy course to learn why it's dangerous to merge and weave around obstacles/parked vehicles.  Much better to lane position yourself in a (constant) straight line to the left of standing vehicles at all times.  It's obvious from your questions that you've never ridden a bike in NYC.â€
If you’re talking to me, well I’ve already taken CS. If you’ve addressed that to Pete, then he’s in luck because there’s one next month in Irvine. Why do you seem to think that careful lane changing and negotiating for gaps is somehow similar to weaving in and out out lanes unpredictability like say maybe a stereotypical bike messenger. There’s a huge difference and what I’m suggesting is far from dangerous when done correctly.Â
To bring up John Allen again - he recently made a video riding down some streets in Philadelphia using a bike lane off and on. He made the video in response to a right hook fatality (those NEVER happen though, do they?). Of course someone criticized his riding and sure enough accused him of weaving in and out of the bike lanes. The conversation and video are here:
http://john-s-allen.com/blog/?page_id=7323
Is Allen operating in a such a way that’s dangerous? No because he’s adjusting his speed to match motor traffic and he’s either looking for gaps or negotiating with other road users for one. What I’m suggesting is no different and any bicycle rider would find learning this skill to be worthwhile.Â
Out of curiosity, what makes NYC so special? Are the drivers there not capable of negotiating for gaps or signaling? Do they operate on a set of rules for drivers of vehicles different from the rest of the country?Â
“Prevailing against the city would be difficult.  The plaintiff would have to demonstrate the city (a) knew or should have known that particular road configuration was dangerous (namely, had prior notice), and (b) did not take steps to mitigate that danger.  That the intersection was reconfigured so frequently (per Google Streetview history) and just prior to the collision makes it unlikely for the plaintiff to prevail on (b).  Additionally, the city can use design immunity as an affirmative defense. “
This is why bicycling advocates need to make as much noise as possible when cities (and AASHTO, Alta, O’Toole, Streetsblob, LAB, etc) promote infrastructure that has obvious operational hazards for bicyclists following them.Â
“Serious question:Â
Given there was a bus stop on Mass Ave. at that intersection, suppose a bus is just about to pull away from the bus stop as the truck pulled up alongside and initiated the jughandle turn.  Which vehicle would have the right of way?â€
Were all your other questions a joke?Â
“Jim,
I really had to restrain myself from reponding to your post to see what the overall reaction was from forum members to your proposal.
I think your proposal is sensible.
I will now let the cat out of the bag, namely your proposal is exactly the approach NYC (NACTO!) took, you will no doubt be lynched for promoting and endorsing such heresy. :)â€
Jim’s idea also includes enforcement and education. NACTO only calls for the bollards, signage, and the bike-specific traffic signal.
“I really suggest you step out of your OC bubble.  Palo Alto is literally a sea of bikes just before school starts and when it lets out.â€
While awesome, Palo Alto is one city. The bubble of Orange County isn't so much of a bubble after all considering most of the country has high dependence on automobiles and today's parents are increasingly controlling of their children.Â
-
https://www.cityofpaloalto.org/civicax/filebank/documents/62724
- I really suggest you step out of your OC bubble. Â Palo Alto is literally a sea of bikes just before school starts and when it lets out.
- I really suggest you step out of your OC bubble. Â Palo Alto is literally a sea of bikes just before school starts and when it lets out.
John Eldon
From: Scott Mace <sc...@wiredmuse.com>
To: flehne...@gmail.com; CABOforum <cabo...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2018 3:21 PM
Subject: Re: [CABOforum] Trucks and bike conflicts -- basic information
volar....@gmail.com
It is a mistake to characterize the road where the collision occured as "straight." There is a slight curve to the left. Just last month I was on a similar road and I personally witnessed an apparently inattentive driver hit a parked car and flip over his own vehicle (mid-day). The cops administered a breathalizer test after they'd arrived and the driver was not intoxicated.
This driver (in a sedan) hit the parked car with such violence that the parked car hopped over the curb and its rear axle detached.
I have no insight to what happened on Carribean Drive in Sunnyvale but it certainly wouldn't surprise me if the truck driver was similarly inattentive, failed to steer where the road curved.
Caribean Dr. with 3 travel lanes in each direction has way too much excess capacity. The fact it's located right next to the Sunnyvale Municipal Dump just makes it that much more treacherous to commuter cyclists.
Serge Issakov
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "CABOforum" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to caboforum+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
F Lehnerz
Scott Mace
A more interesting question to me would be, was the cyclist riding in the traffic lane to avoid debris in the bike lane, and so therefore was the trucker not expecting a cyclist to be controlling the traffic lane.
Scott Mace
Serge Issakov
Much more likely is that the motorist either drifted into the bike lane, or the cyclist suddenly and unexpectedly veered into the traffic lane in front of the truck to avoid debris or something in the bike lane.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "CABOforum" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to caboforum+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
Scott Mace
Scott Mace
At 06:40 PM 2/14/2018, Serge Issakov wrote:
In my experience based on 15 years of using the full lane by default and observing motorist behavior in my mirror, it's highly unlikely (but of course not impossible) that the cyclist was controlling the traffic lane for any reasonable length of time and was still overlooked.
Much more likely is that the motorist either drifted into the bike lane, or the cyclist suddenly and unexpectedly veered into the traffic lane in front of the truck to avoid debris or something in the bike lane. Â
Serge Issakov
Serge
volar....@gmail.com
If he commuted by bike at all regularly from his house to work he was likely a strong rider, and unlikely to be a curb-hugger.
Michael Graff
The victim, Scott Harvey lived in Boulder Creek in the Santa Cruz Mtns (Hwy 9, hilly, narrow rd).
If he commuted by bike at all regularly from his house to work he was likely a strong rider, and unlikely to be a curb-hugger.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "CABOforum" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to caboforum+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
Serge Issakov
The victim, Scott Harvey lived in Boulder Creek in the Santa Cruz Mtns (Hwy 9, hilly, narrow rd).
If he commuted by bike at all regularly from his house to work he was likely a strong rider, and unlikely to be a curb-hugger.
F Lehnerz
Type A. Extreme gutter huggers who never leave the extreme right edge of the roadway. The edge acts as a rail and the tracking of their bicycle wheels do not deviate from this rail. These bicyclists essentially operate as pedestrians on the roadway.
Type B. Edge riders who leave the edge (or bike lane) and “take the lane when necessary.” “When necessary” is highly debatable among this group (see A&S sub forum on Bikeforums for example) and some of them criticize bicycle vehicle operators for being “road hogs.” Some think “taking the lane” should only be done at certain speeds as to not “inconvenience” motor traffic and others think it’s only appropriate on certain roads. “Fear from the rear” rears (pun intended) it’s ugly head often. Many when “taking the lane” however often don’t completely control their space, they operate still toward the edge riding ROC (right of Center) or RTT (right tire track) which causes confusion with operators of faster moving traffic primarily motor vehicles because they think they can squeeze by in the same space. Some understand they can operate in a standard travel lane when the bike lane of edge is of poor quality or when operating there isn’t practicable but many don’t. Others think they are being “nice and courteous” to faster moving traffic by being “out of the way” or that the risks of edge behavior are exaggerated. Each of these here in Type B could probably be split into subtypes.
Type S (for Serge). Vehicle operators who control the general purpose travel lane by default, usually use a rear view mirror to monitor traffic from behind and release when appropriate. Instead of “fear from the rear” these operators understand the majority of other vehicle operators are looking where they intend to steer the vehicle so they will see a bicyclist in the centerish position of their lane early on. The bicyclist’s lane position is far enough from the right edge so that operators of faster moving vehicles understand early that they cannot pass within the same lane. This is either center or LOC (left of center) These bicyclists only operate at the edge when releasing traffic or preparing to turn right and very rarely get flats.
Most strong and experienced cyclists, probably fall somewhere between B and S. To be completely honest I never started playing around with default lane control “even if there’s a perfectly usable bike lane or shareable space next to me” behavior until about six months ago. This was odd because I’ve been using a mirror for years now to maintain situational awareness of what’s behind me and I’ve been using strategies similar to “control and release” to help faster traffic out on two lane roads. Like Serge, I’ve found that acknowledging the drivers as they come up results in cooperation the majority of the time and I don’t see how one can do this effectively without a mirror.
Frank
volar....@gmail.com
Serge Issakov
- What exactly do you mean by curb-hugging behavior?
- What about curb-hugging behavior makes it unsuitable for highways with high motorcycle traffic?
- What does any of this this have to do with whether the cyclist in the Sunnyvale fatal tragic crash was likely to have been using the full lane or riding in the bike lane?
Hwy 9 is the local crotch-rocket (motocycle) park. Harvey could not have made his way up or down using curb-hugging behavior. This doesn't have much to do with high-mileage riding.
volar....@gmail.com
The posted speed limit is 45mph. Let's say Harvey was traveling at 18mph. That's a speed differential of 27mph, or 40ft/s. That's just slightly under the width of 4 lanes per sec.
If someone is driving distracted/inattentively, no mirror/lane positioning is going to save you. And that's not even taking account reaction time or stopping distance.
You guys really need to quit the magical thinking and the (implied) insulting victim blaming.
Scott Mace
Scott Mace
Michael Graff
https://www.vox.com/2015/7/9/8905959/medical-harm-infection-prevention#hospital-types
"The reaction to fatal plane crashes is decidedly different from the reaction to fatal car crashes. ... Fatal car accidents are seen as a sad but unavoidable inevitability of hundreds of millions of Americans getting behind a driver’s wheel each day."
Serge Issakov
P.S. Nobody is blaming the cyclist for riding in the bike lane (if indeed that's what he was doing). Please.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "CABOforum" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to caboforum+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
volar....@gmail.com
To ride such roads this means he was more than competent riding his bike in traffic, or put in terms people here can understand, that he was competent VC. (He could not have ridding Hwy 9 in any other fashion.)
FWIW, whenever I ride Caribbean I ride in the middle of the #3 lane. That's because Caribbean is generally devoid of traffic and cars travel fast, not because the bike lane is 'substandard' or 'full of debris.'
To suggest that Harvey (or I) might have averted disaster of distracted driver by having a mirror and/or selected 'better' lane positioning illustrates the 'make-believe' world you guys construct.
We don't know what the trucker was doing shortly before the collision. But let's suppose his phone rang and he looked down at the CallerId. How long do you think something like that might take? One second, two seconds?
Your 10 seconds is bullshit of the highest order.
Serge Issakov
Consider if Harvey was in the bike lane. Phone rings, lane ahead is clear, motorist takes call, drifts, hits cyclist.
Now consider if Harvey was clearly in the traffic lane. Motorist has WTF moment. Phone rings. Motorist ignores phone or only glances because he has to deal with that moron cyclist up ahead IN HIS LANE!!! Oh, wait, the cyclist just moved aside into the bike lane. How cool! Nods and waves as he safely passes cyclist. Now... who called?
volar....@gmail.com
My illustration of callerid is meant to illustrate a vehicle can drift 40ft. (across almost 4 lanes) in one sec. This means regardless what lane positioning/mirrors Harvey had he was defenseless against a distracted driver. That's why your 10 secs (or even 5) secs is bullshit.
The other event I cited earlier where a driver flipped his own car after hitting a parked car, do you think somehow that parked car was obscured/not visible to that driver?
Serge Issakov
F Lehnerz
How many bicyclists, even the so-called “experienced” ride well, dodge potholes well, sprint well, bike messenger well, ride no handed well, etc will ride in a bike lane or some sort of available space. Even if it’s a crappy, inconsistent shoulder they’ll ride there no matter the risk of sideswipes, left cross, right hook, drive out, walkout, or doorings?
I’d say still almost all. Even when groups ride double, you regularly see one practically at the edge and the other barely right of center.
Extend this to other countries, almost every video I’ve seen on YT from the UK and Australia show edge riding behavior. My experiences in Mexico, Chile, and Argentina - almost all edge riders. Mexico City was an interesting exception because last time I was there I saw a dozen or so people within a few hour period, mostly on bike share bikes, controlling the lane on Paseo de la Reforma. Surprisingly parallel to this road there was another road with a NACTO-inspired “protected bike lane” but few were using it. Mexico City is the only entity that’s removed the discriminatory FTR language that I know about.
What’s really sad, at least in my experiences especially from living in “bike friendly” Colorado, is that it’s harder to convince these “experienced” cyclists that this behavior is so risky than it is to convince motorists we’re allowed to use the roadways.
Frank
Pete van Nuys
And with customary all due respect:
The reason it' s hard to kill FTR is because Americans have 4 generations of pro-motor indoctrination and ZERO refutation from the Bicycle "industry" which in a market culture is the only credible source of balance.
Pro-faclities dogma only reinforces the tribalism and discrimination against lawful bicycling which mandates equality among road users. Equality is never supported by the ruling class, and never pursued by bureaucrats whose career depends on "helping" the oppressed. Just the opposite. Maintaining an oppressed class is pure job security for them.
Bicyclist freedom and safety is up to us to achieve.
Sent from my, believe it or not, BlackBerry
Original Message
From: flehne...@gmail.com
Sent: February 15, 2018 8:10 PM
To: cabo...@googlegroups.com
Reply-to: flehne...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [CABOforum] Trucks and bike conflicts -- basic information
Extend your hypotheses to roads with bike lanes.
Frank
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "CABOforum" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to caboforum+...@googlegroups.com.
John Eldon
F Lehnerz
Another paradox of the “biking” facilities and the industry is that they claim to promote equality (“8-80”) yet shun those like us who already get around on the system that already exists. Alta’s comments a few weeks ago on their FB page dismissing a bicycle commuter’s points because he was a white male “strong” rider is a good example of this.
Perhaps it drives the AIC nuts we can coexist in this system with other road users not only successfully but safely which makes their “engineering” services not needed. And perhaps it drives the industry nuts we’re not buying the latest and greatest fashion accessories masquerading as safety items (rear radar, the brightest blinking headlights that blind everybody, reflective everything) peddled in Bicycling Magazine because we’re doing low cost things like using $14.00 mirrors which last for decades and we operate in the general use lanes (free).
What they do is pretty smart from money making point of view though:
Step 1: Manufacture a problem.
Step 2: Create products and sell services to “solve” said problem.
Step 3: Profit.
Frank
P.S: I have the reply system figured out now if you couldn’t tell!
Pete van Nuys
On 2/16/2018 11:39 AM, F Lehnerz wrote:
> What they do is pretty smart from money making point of view though:
> Step 1: Manufacture a problem.
> Step 2: Create products and sell services to “solve” said problem.
> Step 3: Profit.
defined by Americans' fears. And because auto culture absolutely
permeates Americans in all walks of life, engineers abandon their
reasoning, law enforcement abandons safety and violates cyclists'
rights, electeds at all levels-- when they bother with bicycling at
all-- deal with it as a a problem instead of an opportunity,
I've said that Americans are fat and lazy. That's true, but the eBike
could resolve that barrier to daily cycling and populate many
"facilities" beyond the Badvocates wildest dreams. In which case riding
on the roadway will be the only way to get through a whole new kind of
urban congestion caused by chaos and dysfunction when herds of adult
6-six olds take to the paths. ...just my Orwellian vision.
--
Pete van Nuys Exec. Dir. Orange County Bicycle Coalition ECI, LCI, CSI
949 492 5737