Lawrence Expressway HOV right lanes
Eric Rosenberg
Someone claiming to be Timothy J. Lee (nob...@not.for.email) typed:
: In Sunnyvale, CA, the HOV lanes on Lawrence Expressway (a street with
: a 50mph speed limit and usually three regular lanes in each direction,
: but mostly regular at-grade intersections) are the right lanes instead
: of the left lanes.
: This seems less safe than making the HOV lanes the left lanes, since:
: (1) It violates the usual "slower traffic keep right, faster traffic
: pass on the left" convention (assuming the HOV lane is the fastest lane).
: (2) Most entries to and exits from the expressway are on the right side,
: which creates greater conflicts between turning traffic and presumably
: fast HOV traffic. In addition, traffic turning off is forced to make a
: last second lane change to cut across the HOV lane, instead of merging
: to the right lane ahead of time.
: (3) Enforcement appears spotty, given the number of "cheaters" that can
: be seen (even when the lanes change to "exit use only"). This increases
: the danger that happens when turning traffic cuts across the "cheater"
: traffic.
: (4) It may be more dangerous for bicyclists to share the lane with the
: fastest, rather than the slowest, traffic. Also, the merging mess in
: (2) and (3) may make it more likely that a motorist may fail to notice
: a bicyclist when maneuvering to make a turn.
: Why were the HOV lanes made the right lanes instead of the left lanes?
Here is part of the reason, over large stretches of this road, as well as
San Tomas, the HOV lane is open only during commute hours, the rest of
the time it is the emergency parking lane. This type of set-up would
have been a lot harder to deal with had the HOV lane been the left lane.
Another reason is the the left lane occaionally gets blocked by traffic
waiting to make a left turn, blocking the HOV lane would have defeated
the purpose of having in at all,
--
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Josh Childers
Timothy J. Lee (nob...@not.for.email) wrote:
: In Sunnyvale, CA, the HOV lanes on Lawrence Expressway (a street with
: a 50mph speed limit and usually three regular lanes in each direction,
: but mostly regular at-grade intersections) are the right lanes instead
: of the left lanes.
: (3) Enforcement appears spotty, given the number of "cheaters" that can
: be seen (even when the lanes change to "exit use only"). This increases
: the danger that happens when turning traffic cuts across the "cheater"
: traffic.
This is one of the big reasons for having them on the left. Heavy traffic
in the HOV lane caused by lots of SOVs turning onto and off of the
expressway makes it hard to enforce, and very dangerous. One of the main
reasons why they are somtimes placed on the right are to eliminate left
exits (of course, that's not an issue on the Lawrence Expressway, since
there are traffic lights and left-turn lanes on it anyway).
Enforcement is one of the reasons why many area also use full-time HOV
lanes (unlike those found in Santa Clara county, which are peak-hours
only). It really cuts down on cheating, and it adds more incentive to use
the faster HOV lanes.
Timothy J. Lee
In Sunnyvale, CA, the HOV lanes on Lawrence Expressway (a street with
a 50mph speed limit and usually three regular lanes in each direction,
but mostly regular at-grade intersections) are the right lanes instead
of the left lanes.
This seems less safe than making the HOV lanes the left lanes, since:
(1) It violates the usual "slower traffic keep right, faster traffic
pass on the left" convention (assuming the HOV lane is the fastest lane).
(2) Most entries to and exits from the expressway are on the right side,
which creates greater conflicts between turning traffic and presumably
fast HOV traffic. In addition, traffic turning off is forced to make a
last second lane change to cut across the HOV lane, instead of merging
to the right lane ahead of time.
(3) Enforcement appears spotty, given the number of "cheaters" that can
be seen (even when the lanes change to "exit use only"). This increases
the danger that happens when turning traffic cuts across the "cheater"
traffic.
(4) It may be more dangerous for bicyclists to share the lane with the
fastest, rather than the slowest, traffic. Also, the merging mess in
(2) and (3) may make it more likely that a motorist may fail to notice
a bicyclist when maneuvering to make a turn.
Why were the HOV lanes made the right lanes instead of the left lanes?
--
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Daniel P Faigin
On 4 Dec 1997 16:30:46 GMT, gan...@wolfenet.com (Josh Childers) said:
> Enforcement is one of the reasons why many area also use full-time HOV
> lanes (unlike those found in Santa Clara county, which are peak-hours
> only). It really cuts down on cheating, and it adds more incentive to use
> the faster HOV lanes.
You'll find the HOV lanes noted on my California Highway pages. I also note
when they are in operation. In general, lanes in Los Angeles and directly
adjacent counties are 24/7 (always in operation); lanes elsewhere have limited
hours.
Daniel
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Mark W. Schaeffer
In article <timleeEK...@netcom.com>,
see-signature-for-email-address---ads-not-welcome wrote:
>In Sunnyvale, CA, the HOV lanes on Lawrence Expressway (a street with
>a 50mph speed limit and usually three regular lanes in each direction,
>but mostly regular at-grade intersections) are the right lanes instead
>of the left lanes.
>
[...]
>(3) Enforcement appears spotty, given the number of "cheaters" that can
>be seen (even when the lanes change to "exit use only"). This increases
>the danger that happens when turning traffic cuts across the "cheater"
>traffic.
[...]
Someone at work told me that the lack of enforcement on Lawrence was a
jurisdictional issue, i.e. multiple cities arguing over whose police
should do the work. Anyone out there know more than this?
Mark
Brad Templeton
The public simply doesn't know that the shoulder lane is for
breakdowns, cyclists and exiting/entering cars outside of rush hour.
They drive there all the time, I came within a short distance of
being run down a couple of months ago. (It sure is frightening to
hear the squeal of tires from somebody breaking fast behind you,
not looking back because you are peddling like hell.) I pretty
much avoid Lawrence as much as possible now.
The cops refuse to enforce it. I had a cop pull me over for using the
lane.
I tried to convince the county to change the "Exit use only" signs
to "Bike Lane / Exit OK" figuring people would understand a bike lane.
Too bad there is nothing on the street, otherwise they could allow
parking in the lane -- that would get the message out.
Lawrence used to have a shoulder you could bike in but now it's gone.
I think the left turn issue is the big one. Bad enough having people
exit to the right through a carpool lane -- but having them exit to
the left through a carpool lane, when they have to stop at the intersection,
that really wouldn't work.
If the cops handed out some $271 tickets to people driving in the bike
lane outside right hour, that might help a bit. Would be a good revenue
source for the county -- there are a *lot* of drivers doing it. Cops could
just sit there and bring in about $1000 per hour.
--
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Timothy J. Lee
br...@clari.net (Brad Templeton) writes:
|I think the left turn issue is the big one. Bad enough having people
|exit to the right through a carpool lane -- but having them exit to
|the left through a carpool lane, when they have to stop at the intersection,
|that really wouldn't work.
Left turning vehicles stop in the left turn lane, where they do not block
the left lane traffic. Also, the volume of traffic crossing the right
HOV lane for turns is greater than that which would cross a left HOV lane,
because of all of the places where traffic can enter on the right, but not
on the left.
David W. Crawford
There is a `bicycles ok' sign on Lawrence near Tasman.
(I think facing southbound traffic.)
My complaint about putting the HOV lane in the breakdown lane is it
reduces the size of the onramps tremendously.
David W. Crawford <d...@panix.com>
Los Gatos, CA <da...@ricochet.net>
br...@clari.net (Brad Templeton) writes:
y>
> The public simply doesn't know that the shoulder lane is for
> breakdowns, cyclists and exiting/entering cars outside of rush hour.
> They drive there all the time, I came within a short distance of
> being run down a couple of months ago. (It sure is frightening to
> hear the squeal of tires from somebody breaking fast behind you,
> not looking back because you are peddling like hell.) I pretty
> much avoid Lawrence as much as possible now.
>
> The cops refuse to enforce it. I had a cop pull me over for using the
> lane.
>
> I tried to convince the county to change the "Exit use only" signs
> to "Bike Lane / Exit OK" figuring people would understand a bike lane.
>
> Too bad there is nothing on the street, otherwise they could allow
> parking in the lane -- that would get the message out.
>
> Lawrence used to have a shoulder you could bike in but now it's gone.
>
>
> I think the left turn issue is the big one. Bad enough having people
> exit to the right through a carpool lane -- but having them exit to
> the left through a carpool lane, when they have to stop at the intersection,
> that really wouldn't work.
>
John R Cambron
Timothy J. Lee wrote:
>
> In Sunnyvale, CA, the HOV lanes on Lawrence Expressway (a street with
> a 50mph speed limit and usually three regular lanes in each direction,
> but mostly regular at-grade intersections) are the right lanes instead
> of the left lanes.
>
>
> (1) It violates the usual "slower traffic keep right, faster traffic
> pass on the left" convention (assuming the HOV lane is the fastest lane).
>
> (2) Most entries to and exits from the expressway are on the right side,
> which creates greater conflicts between turning traffic and presumably
> fast HOV traffic. In addition, traffic turning off is forced to make a
> last second lane change to cut across the HOV lane, instead of merging
> to the right lane ahead of time.
>
> be seen (even when the lanes change to "exit use only"). This increases
> the danger that happens when turning traffic cuts across the "cheater"
> traffic.
>
> fastest, rather than the slowest, traffic. Also, the merging mess in
> (2) and (3) may make it more likely that a motorist may fail to notice
> a bicyclist when maneuvering to make a turn.
>
>
I read all of the posting in this thread and I get the impression
that the Lawrence Expressway IS NOT a limited access divided highway.
I am not familiar with the Lawrence Expressway. If this is so it is
not uncommon for non limited access divided highway aka city streets
and main through roads to have HOV lanes on the right. US 1 through
Alexendra VA has its HOV lanes on the right Connecticut Ave in NW
Washington DC use to have them in the right. Mind you these two that
I know of are city streets with posted speeds of 35 MPH or less and
have curb side parking during off peek.
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Steven M. Scharf
Brad Templeton wrote in message <66817b$2...@fugue.clari.net>...
>The public simply doesn't know that the shoulder lane is for
>breakdowns, cyclists and exiting/entering cars outside of rush hour.
They damn well do know it. There are overhead lighted
signs with 'Lane Closed/Exit OK' flashing after the carpool
hours. They simply ignore the signs.
>The cops refuse to enforce it. I had a cop pull me over for using the
>lane.
I've called and complained about the lack of enforcement. And it
isn't because I was on a bike. The people breaking the law make
it hard for cars to legally exit because they're speeding along in
the closed lane so fast that you can't get over to the right.
>If the cops handed out some $271 tickets to people driving in the bike
>lane outside right hour, that might help a bit. Would be a good revenue
>source for the county -- there are a *lot* of drivers doing it. Cops could
>just sit there and bring in about $1000 per hour.
Well driving in a closed lane is not the same as driving in the carpool
lane solo. So I don't think it's the same fine. Anyway, everyone should
call the Santa Clara and Sunnyvale police and complain about it.
Colin R. Leech
[Material re-arranged a bit.]
John R Cambron (fairland@*mail.chesapeake.net) wrote:
> Timothy J. Lee wrote:
>>
>> In Sunnyvale, CA, the HOV lanes on Lawrence Expressway (a street with
>> a 50mph speed limit and usually three regular lanes in each direction,
>> but mostly regular at-grade intersections) are the right lanes instead
>> of the left lanes.
>> ...
>> Why were the HOV lanes made the right lanes instead of the left lanes?
>
> I read all of the posting in this thread and I get the impression
> that the Lawrence Expressway IS NOT a limited access divided highway.
> I am not familiar with the Lawrence Expressway. If this is so it is
> not uncommon for non limited access divided highway aka city streets
> and main through roads to have HOV lanes on the right.
Since buses are generally making stops along the way, the lanes pretty
much _have_ to be on the right. Only on freeways are HOV lanes (usually)
on the left.
> ... Mind you these two that
> I know of are city streets with posted speeds of 35 MPH or less and
> have curb side parking during off peek.
Peak HOV, offpeak parking is a common combination.
>> This seems less safe than making the HOV lanes the left lanes, since:
>>
>> (1) It violates the usual "slower traffic keep right, faster traffic
>> pass on the left" convention (assuming the HOV lane is the fastest lane).
On city streets, you don't get the sort of "lane discipline" that is
supposed to (but often doesn't) prevail on freeways.
>> (2) Most entries to and exits from the expressway are on the right side,
>> which creates greater conflicts between turning traffic and presumably
>> fast HOV traffic.
What kinds of entrances and exits does Lawrence have? Intersections, or ramps?
>> In addition, traffic turning off is forced to make a
>> last second lane change to cut across the HOV lane, instead of merging
>> to the right lane ahead of time.
Indeed, this can be problematic. More often than not, however, (in my
experience) the bigger problem becomes one of enforcement, as non-HOVs
travel in the lane for too long.
>> (3) Enforcement appears spotty, given the number of "cheaters" that can
>> be seen (even when the lanes change to "exit use only").
There is often a lack of adequate enforcement. Many police forces just
don't see this sort of thing as a priority. Bus+taxi lanes are much easier
to enforce than HOV lanes since you can glance at a vehicle to see if it
belongs there, without having to look closely at the number of passengers.
>> (4) It may be more dangerous for bicyclists to share the lane with the
>> fastest, rather than the slowest, traffic.
At the same time, if the curb lane is extra wide, it's the better place
for bikes anyway, plus the lower traffic volumes are an advantage.
(Separate bike lanes would be even better, but we won't re-open that
debate in this thread.)
>> Also, the merging mess in
>> (2) and (3) may make it more likely that a motorist may fail to notice
>> a bicyclist when maneuvering to make a turn.
Fair enough.
--
#### |\^/| Colin R. Leech ag414 or crl...@freenet.carleton.ca
#### _|\| |/|_ Civil engineer by training, transport planner by choice.
#### > < Opinions are my own. You may consider them shareware.
#### >_./|\._< "If you can't return a favour, pass it on." - A.L. Brown
Timothy J. Lee
ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Colin R. Leech) writes:
|
|[Material re-arranged a bit.]
|
|John R Cambron (fairland@*mail.chesapeake.net) wrote:
|> Timothy J. Lee wrote:
|>>
|>> In Sunnyvale, CA, the HOV lanes on Lawrence Expressway (a street with
|>> a 50mph speed limit and usually three regular lanes in each direction,
|>> but mostly regular at-grade intersections) are the right lanes instead
|>> of the left lanes.
|>> ...
|>> Why were the HOV lanes made the right lanes instead of the left lanes?
|>
|> I read all of the posting in this thread and I get the impression
|> that the Lawrence Expressway IS NOT a limited access divided highway.
|
|much _have_ to be on the right. Only on freeways are HOV lanes (usually)
|on the left.
Buses are very rare on Lawrence Expressway, more rare than bicyclists.
|>> This seems less safe than making the HOV lanes the left lanes, since:
|>>
|>> (1) It violates the usual "slower traffic keep right, faster traffic
|>> pass on the left" convention (assuming the HOV lane is the fastest lane).
|
|On city streets, you don't get the sort of "lane discipline" that is
|supposed to (but often doesn't) prevail on freeways.
However, the lane discipline on non-freeways still tends to apply when
bicycles, slow trucks, and slow buses are present; they tend to keep to
the right lane except when preparing to turn left or avoid a forced exit.
|>> (2) Most entries to and exits from the expressway are on the right
side, |>> which creates greater conflicts between turning traffic and
presumably |>> fast HOV traffic. | |What kinds of entrances and exits
does Lawrence have? Intersections, or ramps?
Regular at-grade intersections (traffic light controlled, with protected
left turns and separate left turn lanes), cloverleaf (intersection with
route 101 freeway), diamond (intersection with El Camino Real; Lawrence
faces no traffic lights on this one), modified cloverleaf (intersection
with Central Expressway; there are businesses along the "cloverleaf"
ramps), and minor roads or driveways on the right side only (in the
area with the computer stores).
Only the regular at-grade intersections have left exits, while all of the
others have right exits only. Right entrances to Lawrence are very numerous,
while there aren't any left entrances (left turns onto Lawrence are protected,
and can go into any lane).
|>> In addition, traffic turning off is forced to make a
|>> last second lane change to cut across the HOV lane, instead of merging
|>> to the right lane ahead of time.
|
|Indeed, this can be problematic. More often than not, however, (in my
|experience) the bigger problem becomes one of enforcement, as non-HOVs
|travel in the lane for too long.
Even if there were no "cheaters", making a last second merge through
faster HOV traffic to turn right is not exactly a safe thing to do.
Entering the expressway when the nearest lane is the fastest lane, and
one has to immediately merge into the next lane, is not exactly ideal
either.
|>> (4) It may be more dangerous for bicyclists to share the lane with the
|>> fastest, rather than the slowest, traffic.
|
|At the same time, if the curb lane is extra wide, it's the better place
|for bikes anyway, plus the lower traffic volumes are an advantage.
However, the lack of enforcement means that there are plenty of "cheaters"
in the lane, so the volume is not as low as bicyclists would like (even
when the lane is supposed to be completely closed). The "cheaters" also
tend to be the most risky drivers.
|>> Also, the merging mess in
|>> (2) and (3) may make it more likely that a motorist may fail to notice
|>> a bicyclist when maneuvering to make a turn.
|
|Fair enough.
This is probably the more serious problem of the right HOV lanes from a
bicyclist's perspective. The more complex the maneuver a motorist must
make (e.g. last second lane change just before a right turn, or entering
on the right and then making an instant lane change to the left, as opposed
to a simple turn to enter or exit), the less able the motorist is able to
pay attention for the presence of bicyclists.
David W. Crawford
ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Colin R. Leech) writes:
> Since buses are generally making stops along the way, the lanes pretty
> much _have_ to be on the right. Only on freeways are HOV lanes (usually)
> on the left.
Market Street in SF has HOV lanes on the left.
To answer the other question, `what sort of intersections does Lawrence have ?'
it has just about every kind possible, except traffic circles.
Grade separated crossings, cloverleafs, diamonds, stripmall driveways,
traffic lights, right-turn slip roads ...
dc
James C. Armstrong
In article <66ftjm$n...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>,
Colin R. Leech <ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>>> In addition, traffic turning off is forced to make a
>>> last second lane change to cut across the HOV lane, instead of merging
>>> to the right lane ahead of time.
>Indeed, this can be problematic. More often than not, however, (in my
>experience) the bigger problem becomes one of enforcement, as non-HOVs
>travel in the lane for too long.
What defines "too long?" A few years back, a co-worker received a
ticket for driving in the carpool lane because he changed lanes too
far in advance of a right turn on San Tomas. According to the co-worker,
the officer could not tell him exactly how far in advance was too far.
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David W. Crawford
Why aren't there cones in the breakdowns lane to prevent through
traffic when the lanes are closed. (like there are at Oakmead
to block traffic going north into the 101 constructions site).
The cones could be spaced so as to allow cyclists.
I recommend placing them immediately upstream of onramps,
and at intersctions after exits.
David W. Crawford <d...@panix.com>
Los Gatos, CA <da...@ricochet.net>
> |>> In addition, traffic turning off is forced to make a
> |>> last second lane change to cut across the HOV lane, instead of merging
> |>> to the right lane ahead of time.
> |
> |Indeed, this can be problematic. More often than not, however, (in my
> |experience) the bigger problem becomes one of enforcement, as non-HOVs
> |travel in the lane for too long.
>
Colin R. Leech
David W. Crawford (d...@panix.com) wrote:
>
> Market Street in SF has HOV lanes on the left.
Market St. also has trolleys (LRVs) running in the middle of the street,
so that's the logical place for specialized lanes.
> To answer the other question, `what sort of intersections does Lawrence have ?'
> it has just about every kind possible, except traffic circles.
>
> Grade separated crossings, cloverleafs, diamonds, stripmall driveways,
> traffic lights, right-turn slip roads ...
In other words, as somebody else has pointed out, there isn't an intrinsic
bias toward entries and exits on the right side, as would typically be
the case for a freeway. It also means that the merging traffic wouldn't
all be entering at high speed (as would be the case on a freeway), since
they're coming around corners to enter the street.
J.C.
> traffic when the lanes are closed. (like there are at Oakmead
> to block traffic going north into the 101 constructions site).
Sounds like a wonderful idea. But just WHO would be out there
putting them up outside of commute hours and then taking them
down for the commute?? Abd, since I have yet to see the Oakmead/
101 arrangement, care to elaborate?
>
> The cones could be spaced so as to allow cyclists.
> I recommend placing them immediately upstream of onramps,
> and at intersctions after exits.
I biked Lawrence to work the other day (in the early, post
lunch, afternoon.) I was rather perturbed by the large amount
of cars I saw using the (closed) right lane as an extra lane,
from the moment I headed over Stevens Creek heading north. I
noticed so many as I passed Pruneridge and approached a stoplight
at Homestead that I decided to do something about it. I took the
lane. And I stayed there all the way until my exit at Central.
I know I was asking for possible serious injury, but the numbers
of drivers using that lane sure dropped off (for as far as I
could see.)
So this made me think that a protest ride, similar to that of
CM, might make an impact with drivers on Lawrence. During
non-commute hours (when the right lane is CLOSED to through
traffic) a large, widely spaced, pack of riders would certainly
be noticed (not to mention take away any incentive for drivers
to use that closed lane.)
What do people think?
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David W. Crawford
NOSPAMFO...@kzsu.Stanford.EDU (J.C.) writes:
>
> David W. Crawford (d...@panix.com) wrote:
> > Why aren't there cones in the breakdowns lane to prevent through
> > traffic when the lanes are closed. (like there are at Oakmead
> > to block traffic going north into the 101 constructions site).
>
> Sounds like a wonderful idea. But just WHO would be out there
> putting them up outside of commute hours and then taking them
> down for the commute?? Abd, since I have yet to see the Oakmead/
> 101 arrangement, care to elaborate?
Who ? I nominate effective cyclists[tm].
Wait for my next post to see a schematic of the Oakmead cones.
Timothy J. Lee
|> traffic lights, right-turn slip roads ...
|
|In other words, as somebody else has pointed out, there isn't an intrinsic
|bias toward entries and exits on the right side, as would typically be
|the case for a freeway.
All except the regular traffic light crossings bias the exits on the
right side, and there are no left entrances that aren't protected by
traffic lights.
| It also means that the merging traffic wouldn't
|all be entering at high speed (as would be the case on a freeway), since
|they're coming around corners to enter the street.
Because of the slow speed of entering traffic on many of the mostly right
side entrances, putting the presumably high speed HOV lane on the right
increases the chance of speed-differential conflict with entering
traffic. Non-HOV entering traffic must immediately merge left to obey
the law, increasing the complexity of the entering maneuver; this increases
the hazard for all involved (including HOV traffic, non-HOV traffic, and
bicyclists who may be in the area)
Scott Mace
The San Francisco Bicycle Coalition met tonight and they're working on a new
stencil for the right-hand lanes of streets: "Bikes Ride Here" for streets
with no shoulder or bike lane. The stencil would also be far enough out from
parked cars to guide cyclists to avoid being "doored".
The stencil might need to pass muster with the folks who implement traffic
control devices nationwide (AASHTO?) but in S.F. they may blaze the trail.
Maybe such a stencil could also be employed on the Lawerence pavement in
that carpool lane. I've certainly had my share of close calls riding back
and forth from the Lawrence Station Caltrain stop to my parents' house near
Lawrence and El Camino, and I think something should be done before a
cyclist is injured or killed.
Scott Mace
J.C. wrote in message <66j82a$919$2...@nntp.Stanford.EDU>...
david ross
>> What defines "too long?" A few years back, a co-worker received a
>> ticket for driving in the carpool lane because he changed lanes too
>> far in advance of a right turn on San Tomas. According to the co-worker,
>> the officer could not tell him exactly how far in advance was too far.
>> --
>
>Maybe you are only supposed to pass through the HOV lane (for exiting and
>entering) where there are dashed white lines. The dashed lines, before and
>after an intersection, seem to permit enough time to merge through.
>
All things considered, there is no such thing as getting into the
right lane to make a right turn too soon. I will get into the
furtherst right lane that will permit me to make a right turn as many
blocks ahead as possible. This idea of right hand HOV lanes is just
plain STUPID! I do not like nor consider it safe to wait until the
last minute to get into the right lane to make a right turn.
David Ross
http://www.earthlink.net/~damiross
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Colin R. Leech
david ross (dami...@usa.net) wrote:
>>> What defines "too long?" A few years back, a co-worker received a
>>> ticket for driving in the carpool lane because he changed lanes too
>>> far in advance of a right turn on San Tomas.
>>
>>Maybe you are only supposed to pass through the HOV lane (for exiting and
>>entering) where there are dashed white lines. The dashed lines, before and
>>after an intersection, seem to permit enough time to merge through.
On an expressway, this would be correct. Continued below:
> All things considered, there is no such thing as getting into the
> right lane to make a right turn too soon. I will get into the
> furtherst right lane that will permit me to make a right turn as many
> blocks ahead as possible.
On a city street with short blocks, you should not be in the lane to make
the turn more than one block before the turn.
Timothy J. Lee
|> All things considered, there is no such thing as getting into the
|> right lane to make a right turn too soon. I will get into the
|> furtherst right lane that will permit me to make a right turn as many
|> blocks ahead as possible.
|
|On a city street with short blocks, you should not be in the lane to make
|the turn more than one block before the turn.
If the right lane is not a special lane (right turn only, Lawrence
Expressway HOV lane, or something like that), why not? It may be less
convenient if there is a lot of turning traffic that slows down through
traffic, but some people prefer get into the right lane when it is safe
rather than cutting in at the last second, as one is required to do on
Lawrence Expressway.
Timothy J. Lee
augu...@svpal.svpal.org (August Miller) writes:
|Scott Mace (sm...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
|
|: Maybe such a stencil could also be employed on the Lawerence pavement in
|: that carpool lane. I've certainly had my share of close calls riding back
|: and forth from the Lawrence Station Caltrain stop to my parents' house near
|: Lawrence and El Camino, and I think something should be done before a
|: cyclist is injured or killed.
|
|Maybe bicycles should be banned again to solve the problem.
Even if that were legally possible, that would make things worse for
motorists, since the bicyclists forced to use cars instead would take
up more road space in their cars and therefore cause more traffic
congestion.
That also wouldn't do anything about the multitude of problems that
the right side HOV lanes cause for motorists.
Colin R. Leech
Timothy J. Lee (nob...@not.for.email) wrote:
> ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Colin R. Leech) writes:
> |david ross (dami...@usa.net) wrote:
> |
> |> All things considered, there is no such thing as getting into the
> |> right lane to make a right turn too soon. I will get into the
> |> furtherst right lane that will permit me to make a right turn as many
> |> blocks ahead as possible.
> |
> |On a city street with short blocks, you should not be in the lane to make
> |the turn more than one block before the turn.
[And earlier comments were deleted about dashed lines on higher-grade
roads such as the Calif. "expressways" marking where you should merge
across the lane to make the turn.]
> If the right lane is not a special lane (right turn only, Lawrence
> Expressway HOV lane, or something like that), why not? It may be less
> convenient if there is a lot of turning traffic that slows down through
> traffic, but some people prefer get into the right lane when it is safe
> rather than cutting in at the last second, as one is required to do on
> Lawrence Expressway.
Your paragraph is a bit confusing, but I'll try to sort it out.
"If the right lane is not a special lane (right turn only, Lawrence
Expressway HOV lane, or something like that)" then you can travel in it
any time you like, whether you have a right turn coming up or not.
In the case of an HOV (or other special lane), getting into the lane too
early may wind up blocking the traffic that is supposed to use the lane.
Timothy J. Lee
ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Colin R. Leech) writes:
|
|Timothy J. Lee (nob...@not.for.email) wrote:
|> ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Colin R. Leech) writes:
|> |david ross (dami...@usa.net) wrote:
|> |
|> |> All things considered, there is no such thing as getting into the
|> |> right lane to make a right turn too soon. I will get into the
|> |> furtherst right lane that will permit me to make a right turn as many
|> |> blocks ahead as possible.
|> |
|> |On a city street with short blocks, you should not be in the lane to make
|> |the turn more than one block before the turn.
|
|> Expressway HOV lane, or something like that), why not? It may be less
|> convenient if there is a lot of turning traffic that slows down through
|> traffic, but some people prefer get into the right lane when it is safe
|> rather than cutting in at the last second, as one is required to do on
|> Lawrence Expressway.
|
|Your paragraph is a bit confusing, but I'll try to sort it out.
|
|"If the right lane is not a special lane (right turn only, Lawrence
|Expressway HOV lane, or something like that)" then you can travel in it
|any time you like, whether you have a right turn coming up or not.
Lawrence Expressway blocks are not really that short in most places,
and you said "on a city street with short blocks", so I assumed that
you meant a more general case than Lawrence Expressway.
|In the case of an HOV (or other special lane), getting into the lane too
|early may wind up blocking the traffic that is supposed to use the lane.
Cutting in at the last second can also delay the traffic (because one is
slowing down to make the turn) and increases the danger of the maneuver.