[C320-list] Using bow cleats for mooring
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Graeme Clark
Dec 18, 2016, 7:05:37 PM12/18/16
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My 1996 320, hull #366, has no bow fairleads, just the usual cleats either side a couple of feet back from the bow.
Here in Britain it is very common - but I believe less so in USA - to have boats moored on a ‘swinging mooring’ rather than docked or ‘alongside’ in a marina. This, for those that are unaware is large gauge chain connected to a heavy weight or block on the sea-bed. The chain is held up by a large floating buoy and a mooring strop or mooring chain is then connected to the top of the riser chain. The free end of this has a small “pickup” buoy attached.
Until now I have been using the mooring chain by removing the anchor and leading the chain over the anchor roller to the large central bow cleat. It works well but has two problems. It can be a pain to remove the anchor and stow it (it has to be taken aft as insufficient room in anchor locker), and it is easy to get fingers trapped when threading chain over the bow roller, especially if the sea is a bit choppy . Also the rusty chain leaves stains on the deck.
Instead of mooring chain, I am therefore considering having a double rope strop made up, to lead either side of the bow to the two bow cleats, having a soft spliced eye at the cleat end and a hard eye at the riser chain end. I envisage using some of the self-adhesive thin stainless steel sheet to protect the edge of the deck where the line might chafe.
The real question though is whether these cleats are up to the load - compared to the large central cleat. i think they must be as they are, after all, what is used to secure the boat alongside in a dock or marina berth. On the other hand the swinging moorings are a little further off shore from the marina and have less shelter so a strong gale and choppy seas might put quite a strain on them.
I’d be interested to hear of other owners who have used or do use similar mooring techniques and any alternative recommendations.
Thanks
Graeme
———————————————————
I work irregular hours and often write emails late in the evening and at weekends; that doesn’t mean I expect you to do the same; reply when convenient!
Here in Britain it is very common - but I believe less so in USA - to have boats moored on a ‘swinging mooring’ rather than docked or ‘alongside’ in a marina. This, for those that are unaware is large gauge chain connected to a heavy weight or block on the sea-bed. The chain is held up by a large floating buoy and a mooring strop or mooring chain is then connected to the top of the riser chain. The free end of this has a small “pickup” buoy attached.
Until now I have been using the mooring chain by removing the anchor and leading the chain over the anchor roller to the large central bow cleat. It works well but has two problems. It can be a pain to remove the anchor and stow it (it has to be taken aft as insufficient room in anchor locker), and it is easy to get fingers trapped when threading chain over the bow roller, especially if the sea is a bit choppy . Also the rusty chain leaves stains on the deck.
Instead of mooring chain, I am therefore considering having a double rope strop made up, to lead either side of the bow to the two bow cleats, having a soft spliced eye at the cleat end and a hard eye at the riser chain end. I envisage using some of the self-adhesive thin stainless steel sheet to protect the edge of the deck where the line might chafe.
The real question though is whether these cleats are up to the load - compared to the large central cleat. i think they must be as they are, after all, what is used to secure the boat alongside in a dock or marina berth. On the other hand the swinging moorings are a little further off shore from the marina and have less shelter so a strong gale and choppy seas might put quite a strain on them.
I’d be interested to hear of other owners who have used or do use similar mooring techniques and any alternative recommendations.
Thanks
Graeme
———————————————————
I work irregular hours and often write emails late in the evening and at weekends; that doesn’t mean I expect you to do the same; reply when convenient!
Scott Thompson
Dec 18, 2016, 7:36:00 PM12/18/16
to C320...@catalina320.com
I keep my 1999 320 on such a mooring using a single mooring pennant led to the port cleat. I use a 12 foot by 3/4 inch Yale mooring pennant. Mooring on the starboard side causes problems with the anchor. I've had no problems through more than 12 years with this arrangement, including tropical storm force winds. I am in a sheltered creek so no significant wave action, tides or wakes. The bow cleats are less likely to fail than the mooring itself in my view.
The only issues that I've had were due to the hull bumping against the buoy, which has scratched the boot stripe.
Scott Thompson
The only issues that I've had were due to the hull bumping against the buoy, which has scratched the boot stripe.
Scott Thompson
Rick
Dec 18, 2016, 11:08:58 PM12/18/16
to C320...@catalina320.com
Hello Scott & Graeme,
My mooring arrangement experiences involved spending in excess of 220 overnights on our 320 attached to buoy at Put-in-Bay in Western Lake Erie over 22 seasons.
First: I resolved the mooring buoy hull contact issue by placing around the buoy two half ring sections of a $5, wide diameter swimming pool noodle that has hole in the center. The noodle ring when installed fits loosely around the buoy and the assembled noodle half rings are held together by a discarded 1/4 inch flexible flat two strand electrical cord. I can remove the noodle ring easily with a boat hook or place it on the buoy by tying the ring together before sending it down the vessel's mooring buoy attachment line. Both halves of the noodle ring can be stored in the anchor locker. The rings are held together by the vinyl covered electrical cord with enough cordage left to close the rings with a few simple knots around a looped end at one side of the half ring and stopper knots to keep the cord in place at the other end of the second half ring. One could easily semi-permanently secure the noodle ring to the buoy by simply running a flat cord or line thru the buoy ring to each half of the noodle ring so the ring is not blown off the buoy while the boat is away from the buoy.
Second: I also learned that the port side bow cleat is the preferred mooring buoy line attachment point. Over the years my 320 sustained countless gale force winds and several severe thunderstorms in excess of 60 mph gusts during which there were large waves from an unprotected side of the mooring field. We always remained securely on board while attached to the buoy while it is sometimes unsettling to rock and roll and realize the bow and stern are getting some air time between waves while yawing back and forth...but that all serves to enhances the memories when the calm returns. Never experienced a problem because we figured out what went wrong with the boats we observed occasionally breaking loose over the years. We made many adjustments early on until we settled on the best mooring buoy processes. The critical issue is to protect against the weakest failure points. We use 5/8th braided dock line attached to the buoy ring with a stainless buoy hook and that avoids a line wearing away on the buoy ring over time. I resorted to using a stainless mooring buoy hook that has a spring tensioned closing security loop on the hook that remains open while attached to my boat hook pole until I hook the buoy ring and then withdraw the pole from the buoy ring leaving the stainless buoy hook in place with the security loop closed and secured on the buoy ring. That leaves my boat secured to the buoy. The buoy hook end of the line that was pre-attached to the boat with the dock line's loop attached to that port bow cleat before we approached the buoy. One only has to hold the dock pole and loose line with the stainless hook open and ready to hook the buoy ring. If everything is ready to go at hooking time, it is pretty easy to hook a buoy while single handling by timing the approach to the buoy into the wind in time to leave the helm and grab the dock pole with the line/hook attached and secure the buoy and then return to the helm to reverse the boats movement if necessary in higher winds. I also use a vinyl braided hose as a chafe protector secured to the port bow cleat that is long enough to avoid having the line rub against the bow or even the anchor during those occasional violent swings during heavy wind/wave surges.
Third: I learned that in spite of having a secure stainless hook attached to the buoy ring we also routinely run a safety line through the buoy ring that is attached to the starboard bow cleat with the dock line loop first secured to the starboard bow cleat and the bitter end of that the dock line placed through the buoy ring and then secured to the cleat. That arrangement allows the safety line to be left in a slack position such that the stainless ring hook is always tighter than the safety line. The safety line remains slack enough to stay out of the water most of the time and then the tensioned stainless hooked line swings the boat. The first reason I use the safety line is in the very unlikely event the stainless security hooked line could become twisted around the buoy chain or otherwise forcing the stainless security hook to be jammed open under extreme wind/wave conditions (again, very unlikely). The second reason I use a safety line is because it is then a snap when leaving the buoy. Both the noodle ring and then the stainless hook can be removed in anticipation of leaving the mooring buoy while the safety line continues to secure the boat to the buoy. That way all one needs to do upon departure is to release the bitter end of the safety line from the starboard cleat and allow the safety line to run out of the buoy ring while the looped end is attached to the starboard bow cleat. The safety line can then be quickly gathered upon departure from the buoy if single handling the vessel.
Hope this lengthy explanation serves to stimulate some ideas that may best apply to your situations.
Rick Sulewski
My-Ria 95 320 #277
My mooring arrangement experiences involved spending in excess of 220 overnights on our 320 attached to buoy at Put-in-Bay in Western Lake Erie over 22 seasons.
First: I resolved the mooring buoy hull contact issue by placing around the buoy two half ring sections of a $5, wide diameter swimming pool noodle that has hole in the center. The noodle ring when installed fits loosely around the buoy and the assembled noodle half rings are held together by a discarded 1/4 inch flexible flat two strand electrical cord. I can remove the noodle ring easily with a boat hook or place it on the buoy by tying the ring together before sending it down the vessel's mooring buoy attachment line. Both halves of the noodle ring can be stored in the anchor locker. The rings are held together by the vinyl covered electrical cord with enough cordage left to close the rings with a few simple knots around a looped end at one side of the half ring and stopper knots to keep the cord in place at the other end of the second half ring. One could easily semi-permanently secure the noodle ring to the buoy by simply running a flat cord or line thru the buoy ring to each half of the noodle ring so the ring is not blown off the buoy while the boat is away from the buoy.
Second: I also learned that the port side bow cleat is the preferred mooring buoy line attachment point. Over the years my 320 sustained countless gale force winds and several severe thunderstorms in excess of 60 mph gusts during which there were large waves from an unprotected side of the mooring field. We always remained securely on board while attached to the buoy while it is sometimes unsettling to rock and roll and realize the bow and stern are getting some air time between waves while yawing back and forth...but that all serves to enhances the memories when the calm returns. Never experienced a problem because we figured out what went wrong with the boats we observed occasionally breaking loose over the years. We made many adjustments early on until we settled on the best mooring buoy processes. The critical issue is to protect against the weakest failure points. We use 5/8th braided dock line attached to the buoy ring with a stainless buoy hook and that avoids a line wearing away on the buoy ring over time. I resorted to using a stainless mooring buoy hook that has a spring tensioned closing security loop on the hook that remains open while attached to my boat hook pole until I hook the buoy ring and then withdraw the pole from the buoy ring leaving the stainless buoy hook in place with the security loop closed and secured on the buoy ring. That leaves my boat secured to the buoy. The buoy hook end of the line that was pre-attached to the boat with the dock line's loop attached to that port bow cleat before we approached the buoy. One only has to hold the dock pole and loose line with the stainless hook open and ready to hook the buoy ring. If everything is ready to go at hooking time, it is pretty easy to hook a buoy while single handling by timing the approach to the buoy into the wind in time to leave the helm and grab the dock pole with the line/hook attached and secure the buoy and then return to the helm to reverse the boats movement if necessary in higher winds. I also use a vinyl braided hose as a chafe protector secured to the port bow cleat that is long enough to avoid having the line rub against the bow or even the anchor during those occasional violent swings during heavy wind/wave surges.
Third: I learned that in spite of having a secure stainless hook attached to the buoy ring we also routinely run a safety line through the buoy ring that is attached to the starboard bow cleat with the dock line loop first secured to the starboard bow cleat and the bitter end of that the dock line placed through the buoy ring and then secured to the cleat. That arrangement allows the safety line to be left in a slack position such that the stainless ring hook is always tighter than the safety line. The safety line remains slack enough to stay out of the water most of the time and then the tensioned stainless hooked line swings the boat. The first reason I use the safety line is in the very unlikely event the stainless security hooked line could become twisted around the buoy chain or otherwise forcing the stainless security hook to be jammed open under extreme wind/wave conditions (again, very unlikely). The second reason I use a safety line is because it is then a snap when leaving the buoy. Both the noodle ring and then the stainless hook can be removed in anticipation of leaving the mooring buoy while the safety line continues to secure the boat to the buoy. That way all one needs to do upon departure is to release the bitter end of the safety line from the starboard cleat and allow the safety line to run out of the buoy ring while the looped end is attached to the starboard bow cleat. The safety line can then be quickly gathered upon departure from the buoy if single handling the vessel.
Hope this lengthy explanation serves to stimulate some ideas that may best apply to your situations.
Rick Sulewski
My-Ria 95 320 #277
Chris Nichols
Dec 19, 2016, 2:42:36 AM12/19/16
to C320...@catalina320.com
Hi Scott,
A fellow Brit c320 owner here. I have used my bow cleats in exactly the manner you describe for years without negative consequence on a swinging mooring where the boat has been subject to some horrendous conditions.
A couple of thoughts
1. Put leather chafing gear on the junk to protect it from the occasional twang from the tips of the anchor flukes (I have a boom bail on my anchor roller so removal of the anchor is a real chore). This can happen at the end of a swing with the right wave timing.
2. I have no additional protection for my rail edge and you describe using adhesive SS. I would want to be really sure this did not create an additional chafe point e.g. If the edge of the metal got turned slightly.
All the best
Chris
(AmandaRose #476)
Sent from my iPhone
A fellow Brit c320 owner here. I have used my bow cleats in exactly the manner you describe for years without negative consequence on a swinging mooring where the boat has been subject to some horrendous conditions.
A couple of thoughts
1. Put leather chafing gear on the junk to protect it from the occasional twang from the tips of the anchor flukes (I have a boom bail on my anchor roller so removal of the anchor is a real chore). This can happen at the end of a swing with the right wave timing.
2. I have no additional protection for my rail edge and you describe using adhesive SS. I would want to be really sure this did not create an additional chafe point e.g. If the edge of the metal got turned slightly.
All the best
Chris
(AmandaRose #476)
Sent from my iPhone
Scott Thompson
Dec 19, 2016, 1:29:12 PM12/19/16
to C320...@catalina320.com
I also have no additional chafe protection on the rail and have seen no signs of chafe. The span from cleat to the edge doesn't allow for enough stretch for there to be any movement.
Scott Thompson
Dec 19, 2016, 2:04:27 PM12/19/16
to C320...@catalina320.com
Graeme: Here is a bit more information about what has worked for me. I
use a Yale Maxi-Moor pendant, the 3/4" by 12' version, which has
breaking strength of more than 9,000 kg. I think that is way more than
I need. The product is described here:
[1]http://www.yalecordage.com/maxi-moor.html. You will want a heavy
galvanized shackle (5/8" if I recall, but best to check) to attack the
pendant to the mooring chain. My mooring has one large shackle at the
end of the chain, which keeps the chain from disappearing through the
buoy to the bottom. Then I use a second shackle attached to the first
one to secure the pendant. The second one comes off the buoy along with
the pendant at the end of the season. Both are wired shut with Monel
wire.
Note that my mooring chain passes through the buoy and the pendant
attaches on top. This is different from some systems I see where the
pendant attaches below the buoy. I figure the fewer underwater
connections the better!
How I use the pendant: I pass the large spliced eye through the base of
the port side cleat and then over the ends. This keeps the boat very
secure even without using the little blue line you see in the picture.
I use that line instead to attach a pickup buoy that just sits on the
deck when the boat is on the mooring, but makes picking up the mooring
as simple as nosing the boat up to the pickup buoy and having someone
reach over the side to grab it and pull it on board. No messing around
with boat hooks required. The one I like is this one:
[2]https://shop.hamiltonmarine.com/products/buoy-mast-mooring-6-ft--del
uxe-orange-poly-coated-15953.html. This one has a coating over the
fibreglass that protects it from the UV and also protects your hands
from exposure to bare fiberglass, and is long enough that you don't
have to reach down to grab it. Some people attach a tell-tale to the
top to give better info about what the wind is doing as you approach
the mooring.
I have tried attaching a mooring line on the starboard side but it
tends to hang up on the anchor when the boat swings. I've never had
this issue on the port side, nor have I seen a need for a second
pendant.
Scott Thompson
--------------------------------------
1. http://www.yalecordage.com/maxi-moor.html
2. https://shop.hamiltonmarine.com/products/buoy-mast-mooring-6-ft--deluxe-orange-poly-coated-15953.html
use a Yale Maxi-Moor pendant, the 3/4" by 12' version, which has
breaking strength of more than 9,000 kg. I think that is way more than
I need. The product is described here:
[1]http://www.yalecordage.com/maxi-moor.html. You will want a heavy
galvanized shackle (5/8" if I recall, but best to check) to attack the
pendant to the mooring chain. My mooring has one large shackle at the
end of the chain, which keeps the chain from disappearing through the
buoy to the bottom. Then I use a second shackle attached to the first
one to secure the pendant. The second one comes off the buoy along with
the pendant at the end of the season. Both are wired shut with Monel
wire.
Note that my mooring chain passes through the buoy and the pendant
attaches on top. This is different from some systems I see where the
pendant attaches below the buoy. I figure the fewer underwater
connections the better!
How I use the pendant: I pass the large spliced eye through the base of
the port side cleat and then over the ends. This keeps the boat very
secure even without using the little blue line you see in the picture.
I use that line instead to attach a pickup buoy that just sits on the
deck when the boat is on the mooring, but makes picking up the mooring
as simple as nosing the boat up to the pickup buoy and having someone
reach over the side to grab it and pull it on board. No messing around
with boat hooks required. The one I like is this one:
[2]https://shop.hamiltonmarine.com/products/buoy-mast-mooring-6-ft--del
uxe-orange-poly-coated-15953.html. This one has a coating over the
fibreglass that protects it from the UV and also protects your hands
from exposure to bare fiberglass, and is long enough that you don't
have to reach down to grab it. Some people attach a tell-tale to the
top to give better info about what the wind is doing as you approach
the mooring.
I have tried attaching a mooring line on the starboard side but it
tends to hang up on the anchor when the boat swings. I've never had
this issue on the port side, nor have I seen a need for a second
pendant.
Scott Thompson
I work irregular hours and often write emails late in the evening and at weekend
s; that doesn't mean I expect you to do the same; reply when convenient!
References
s; that doesn't mean I expect you to do the same; reply when convenient!
1. http://www.yalecordage.com/maxi-moor.html
2. https://shop.hamiltonmarine.com/products/buoy-mast-mooring-6-ft--deluxe-orange-poly-coated-15953.html
Jeff Hare
Dec 19, 2016, 3:24:10 PM12/19/16
to C320...@catalina320.com
Rather than remove the Anchor (which is a chore), we just pulled the anchor out it out enough to flip it over and put it back in the bow roller. Then the flukes are pointed up and don't catch the pennant lines. That's a lot easier to do than to remove the anchor and pull it on deck.
But normally when on a mooring ball, we only use the Port side cleat because it is least likely to catch on the anchor during swing unless there is a tide/current/wind combination that makes the boat sit awkwardly. When using double pennants, we nearly always flip the anchor upside down unless it's very calm.
-Jeff Hare
#809
PS: Chris, your particular boat has had its anchor roller upgraded to the newer style which is longer than the ones originally installed on your hull # and earlier. So, those with hulls in the 400's or earlier, probably have the OEM short bow roller unless you specifically upgraded it. Not sure if those are more or less susceptible having the mooring lines from the cleats catch on the anchor.
-----Original Message-----
From: C320-list [mailto:c320-lis...@lists.catalina320.com] On Behalf Of Chris Nichols
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2016 2:43 AM
To: C320...@Catalina320.com
Subject: Re: [C320-list] Using bow cleats for mooring
But normally when on a mooring ball, we only use the Port side cleat because it is least likely to catch on the anchor during swing unless there is a tide/current/wind combination that makes the boat sit awkwardly. When using double pennants, we nearly always flip the anchor upside down unless it's very calm.
-Jeff Hare
#809
PS: Chris, your particular boat has had its anchor roller upgraded to the newer style which is longer than the ones originally installed on your hull # and earlier. So, those with hulls in the 400's or earlier, probably have the OEM short bow roller unless you specifically upgraded it. Not sure if those are more or less susceptible having the mooring lines from the cleats catch on the anchor.
-----Original Message-----
From: C320-list [mailto:c320-lis...@lists.catalina320.com] On Behalf Of Chris Nichols
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2016 2:43 AM
To: C320...@Catalina320.com
Subject: Re: [C320-list] Using bow cleats for mooring
Freedman Arthur
Dec 19, 2016, 4:25:04 PM12/19/16
to List C320 List
At my mooring ball I use a double pennant on my C310 with a claw anchor. Before one particular forecasted severe storm, I removed the anchor. Unfortunately, the wave action in the harbor caused marked severe pitching and swinging of the boat. Bottom line was the anchor roller wore through both 3/4” pennants and the was bent 45 degrees down from the force of the boats peanut catching on the roller. The boat ended up on the beach and spent the winter at the yacht yard being repaired. Lesson learned is any time there is forecasted severe storm I re-rout the pennants through the anchor roller with chafe protection as well as securely tying the pennants to the roller.
Art Freedman
Arthur Freedman, DVM
Hawthorne Animal Health Care
978-741-2300
salt...@mindspring.com
Art Freedman
Hawthorne Animal Health Care
978-741-2300
salt...@mindspring.com
Troy Dunn
Dec 19, 2016, 9:58:47 PM12/19/16
to C320...@catalina320.com
+1 on flipping the anchor upside down. It admittedly looks a bit wonky,
especially if you forget to flip it back and then have your boat hauled for
winter... ;)
Troy Dunn
Wonky Dog
Hull#514
On Monday, December 19, 2016, Freedman Arthur <salt...@mindspring.com>
wrote:
> At my mooring ball I use a double pennant on my C310 with a claw anchor.
> Before one particular forecasted severe storm, I removed the anchor.
> Unfortunately, the wave action in the harbor caused marked severe pitching
> and swinging of the boat. Bottom line was the anchor roller wore through
> both 3/4” pennants and the was bent 45 degrees down from the force of the
> boats peanut catching on the roller. The boat ended up on the beach and
> spent the winter at the yacht yard being repaired. Lesson learned is any
> time there is forecasted severe storm I re-rout the pennants through the
> anchor roller with chafe protection as well as securely tying the pennants
> to the roller.
>
> Art Freedman
>
>
> On Dec 19, 2016, at 3:24 PM, Jeff Hare <Cata...@thehares.com
> salt...@mindspring.com <javascript:;>
>
>
>
>
especially if you forget to flip it back and then have your boat hauled for
winter... ;)
Troy Dunn
Wonky Dog
Hull#514
On Monday, December 19, 2016, Freedman Arthur <salt...@mindspring.com>
wrote:
> At my mooring ball I use a double pennant on my C310 with a claw anchor.
> Before one particular forecasted severe storm, I removed the anchor.
> Unfortunately, the wave action in the harbor caused marked severe pitching
> and swinging of the boat. Bottom line was the anchor roller wore through
> both 3/4” pennants and the was bent 45 degrees down from the force of the
> boats peanut catching on the roller. The boat ended up on the beach and
> spent the winter at the yacht yard being repaired. Lesson learned is any
> time there is forecasted severe storm I re-rout the pennants through the
> anchor roller with chafe protection as well as securely tying the pennants
> to the roller.
>
> Art Freedman
>
>
> On Dec 19, 2016, at 3:24 PM, Jeff Hare <Cata...@thehares.com
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >
> > I keep my 1999 320 on such a mooring using a single mooring pennant led
> to the port cleat. I use a 12 foot by 3/4 inch Yale mooring pennant.
> Mooring on the starboard side causes problems with the anchor. I've had no
> problems through more than 12 years with this arrangement, including
> tropical storm force winds. I am in a sheltered creek so no significant
> wave action, tides or wakes. The bow cleats are less likely to fail than
> the mooring itself in my view.
> >
> > The only issues that I've had were due to the hull bumping against the
> buoy, which has scratched the boot stripe.
> >
> > Scott Thompson
> >
> >> On Dec 18, 2016, at 7:05 PM, Graeme Clark <c...@skyflyer.co.uk
> >
> > I keep my 1999 320 on such a mooring using a single mooring pennant led
> to the port cleat. I use a 12 foot by 3/4 inch Yale mooring pennant.
> Mooring on the starboard side causes problems with the anchor. I've had no
> problems through more than 12 years with this arrangement, including
> tropical storm force winds. I am in a sheltered creek so no significant
> wave action, tides or wakes. The bow cleats are less likely to fail than
> the mooring itself in my view.
> >
> > The only issues that I've had were due to the hull bumping against the
> buoy, which has scratched the boot stripe.
> >
> > Scott Thompson
> >
> >> On Dec 18, 2016, at 7:05 PM, Graeme Clark <c...@skyflyer.co.uk
>
>
>
>
Jon Vez
Dec 20, 2016, 6:41:48 AM12/20/16
to C320...@catalina320.com
An easy way to keep the anchor from chafing a mooring line is to use a bungy cord. Attach one end to the shank hole where it is attached to the chain/rode and the other to your pulpit. This 'tucks' the anchor flukes up under the bow roller. Much quicker and easier than pulling and flipping. I use an 18" bungy with hooks on each end and works great!
Just another option....
Just another option....
Graeme Clark
Dec 20, 2016, 6:48:43 AM12/20/16
to Catalina list
Thanks to all for the advice and suggestions - I now feel a lot happier about using the forward cleat(s) for this
Graeme
Graeme
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