[C320-list] Replacing old rubber hose from gas bottle to stove

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Dennis Cookson

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Mar 15, 2021, 8:10:48 AMMar 15
to C320...@catalina320.com
There’s not a lot of information about this topic in the C320 discussion history, so I’m posting this as an advisory which might be helpful to other owners.

We finally got around to replacing the rubber hose that runs from the propane gas locker on the aft port side to the gas stove in the galley, as an essential upgrade strongly recommended by our surveyor a while back. Although the existing hose still works fine and appears to be in good shape, it is well past its recommended lifetime for propane use of just 5 years. This is because propane attacks the rubber from the inside, and it is impossible to see the internal stress and damage that may have occurred. Should you be unlucky enough to have a leak while the hose is pressurised, the escaping gas will sink to the bilges of the boat, being heavier than air, where it will stay until ventilated, creating a potentially disastrous hazard.

It is usually a condition of insurance policies that gas installations are maintained to meet local regulations, and here in the UK, certified by ‘Gas Safe’ registered engineers. The regulations state that the replacement must deploy copper pipe (typically 10mm thick wall) from the isolation valve in the gas locker all the way to a termination point with shut-off valve at the stove, with just a metre of flexible hose at each end for the connections. The hose behind the stove should be braided for additional protection. So we can’t simply replace like for like.

Although in theory you could perform the work yourself to the appropriate standards, it would still need to be checked, tested, and certified by a registered engineer to meet the insurance requirements. So this is an expensive job, and one that owners naturally prefer not to think about. But if your current installation is well over five years old, which many will be, it’s something you can’t really afford to ignore.

The good news is that Catalina Yachts did make provision (at least from 1999, the year of our boat) for replacement of the hose run from underneath the gas locker to the cupboard under the galley sinks. There is a glassed in plastic conduit tube through which it is possible to pull through a new pipe, whether copper or rubber, using the old rubber one. It requires having one person in the port lazarette and another in the galley for this part of the job, which only takes a few minutes. The rest of the installation can be done by one person. To avoid the expense of paying for a second contractor, I offered my services to act as the engineer's assistant for this task, then left him to complete the work alone.

Dennis Cookson
Catalina #577






kendgb

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Mar 15, 2021, 8:27:20 AMMar 15
to C320...@catalina320.com
Hello Dennis.  Thanks for your info.  Can you tell the outside diameter of the copper tube used and where the copper was run to to attach to a rubber hose.  In other words where are the copper to rubber joints located.ThanksKen GeigerNorthern Dream #765 2000Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------From: Dennis Cookson <den...@cooksons.net> Date: 2021-03-15 08:10 (GMT-05:00) To: C320...@catalina320.com Subject: [C320 There’s not a lot of information about this topic in the C320 discussion history, so I’m posting this as an advisory which might be helpful to other owners.We finally got around to replacing the rubber hose that runs from the propane gas locker on the aft port side to the gas stove in the galley, as an essential upgrade strongly recommended by our surveyor a while back. Although the existing hose still works fine and appears to be in good shape, it is well past its recommended lifetime for propane use of just 5 years.  This is because propane attacks the rubber from the inside, and it is impossible to see the internal stress and damage that may have occurred. Should you be unlucky enough to have a leak while the hose is pressurised, the escaping gas will sink to the bilges of the boat, being heavier than air, where it will stay until ventilated, creating a potentially disastrous hazard.It is usually a condition of insurance policies that gas installations are maintained to meet local regulations, and here in the UK, certified by ‘Gas Safe’ registered engineers.  The regulations state that the replacement must deploy copper pipe (typically 10mm thick wall) from the isolation valve in the gas locker all the way to a termination point with shut-off valve at the stove, with just a metre of flexible hose at each end for the connections.  The hose behind the stove should be braided for additional protection. So we can’t simply replace like for like.Although in theory you could perform the work yourself to the appropriate standards, it would still need to be checked, tested, and certified by a registered engineer to meet the insurance requirements. So this is an expensive job, and one that owners naturally prefer not to think about. But if your current installation is well over five years old, which many will be, it’s something you can’t really afford to ignore.The good news is that Catalina Yachts did make provision (at least from 1999, the year of our boat) for replacement of the hose run from underneath the gas locker to the cupboard under the galley sinks. There is a glassed in plastic conduit tube through which it is possible to pull through a new pipe, whether copper or rubber, using the old rubber one. It requires having one person in the port lazarette and another in the galley for this part of the job, which only takes a few minutes. The rest of the installation can be done by one person.  To avoid the expense of paying for a second contractor, I offered my services to act as the engineer's assistant for this task, then left him to complete the work alone.Dennis CooksonCatalina #577

John morrison

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Mar 15, 2021, 10:31:30 AMMar 15
to C320...@catalina320.com
I’m in the process of replacing all the propane hoses on my 23 year old boat. From the propane locker I’ve taken the complete assembly, 2 short hoses plus the gauge, solenoid valve and regulator, to a local propane dealer to have it all replaced except for the gauge. I will replace the long run hose inside the vessel. I can buy the hose and fittings from our local chandlery. I’ve also read that these hoses should be replaced every 5 years, but I’m thinking 10 is probably safe. Perhaps there is a gas engineer out there who can confirm this?
JohnM
1999#574

kendgb

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Mar 15, 2021, 10:52:30 AMMar 15
to C320...@catalina320.com
John M.  Why not buy the hose and have your pro crimp/sewage on the hose end fittings.  Or let him make the whole hose run.  You do the install.  Or does having the ends on the hole cause a problem feeding it?Ken Geiger Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------From: John morrison <sail-a...@sympatico.ca> Date: 2021-03-15 10:31 (GMT-05:00) To: C320...@Catalina320.com Subject: Re: [C320-list] [C320 I’m in the process of replacing all the propane hoses on my 23 year old boat. From the propane locker I’ve taken the complete assembly, 2 short hoses plus the gauge, solenoid valve and regulator, to a local propane dealer to have it all replaced except for the gauge. I will replace the long run hose inside the vessel. I can buy the hose and fittings from our local chandlery. I’ve also read that these hoses should be replaced every 5 years, but I’m thinking 10 is probably safe. Perhaps there is a gas engineer out there who can confirm this?JohnM1999#574On Mar 15, 2021, at 8:27 AM, kendgb <ken...@aol.com> wrote:> > Hello Dennis.  Thanks for your info.  Can you tell the outside diameter of the copper tube used and where the copper was run to to attach to a rubber hose.  In other words where are the copper to rubber joints located.ThanksKen GeigerNorthern Dream #765 2000Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.> -------- Original message --------From: Dennis Cookson <den...@cooksons.net> Date: 2021-03-15  08:10  (GMT-05:00) To: C320...@catalina320.com Subject: [C320 There’s not a lot of information about this topic in the C320 discussion history, so I’m posting this as an advisory which might be helpful to other owners.We finally got around to replacing the rubber hose that runs from the propane gas locker on the aft port side to the gas stove in the galley, as an essential upgrade strongly recommended by our surveyor a while back. Although the existing hose still works fine and appears to be in good shape, it is well past its recommended lifetime for propane use of just 5 years.  This is because propane attacks the rubber from the inside, and it is impossible to see the internal stress and damage that may have occurred. Should you be unlucky enough to have a leak while the hose is pressurised, the escaping gas will sink to the bilges of the boat, being heavier than air, where it will stay until ventilated, creating a potentially disastrous hazard.It is usually a condition of insurance policies that gas installations are maintained to meet local regulations, and here in the UK, certified by ‘Gas Safe’ registered engineers.  The regulations state that the replacement must deploy copper pipe (typically 10mm thick wall) from the isolation valve in the gas locker all the way to a termination point with shut-off valve at the stove, with just a metre of flexible hose at each end for the connections.  The hose behind the stove should be braided for additional protection. So we can’t simply replace like for like.Although in theory you could perform the work yourself to the appropriate standards, it would still need to be checked, tested, and certified by a registered engineer to meet the insurance requirements. So this is an expensive job, and one that owners naturally prefer not to think about. But if your current installation is well over five years old, which many will be, it’s something you can’t really afford to ignore.The good news is that Catalina Yachts did make provision (at least from 1999, the year of our boat) for replacement of the hose run from underneath the gas locker to the cupboard under the galley sinks. There is a glassed in plastic conduit tube through which it is possible to pull through a new pipe, whether copper or rubber, using the old rubber one. It requires having one person in the port lazarette and another in the galley for this part of the job, which only takes a few minutes. The rest of the installation can be done by one person.  To avoid the expense of paying for a second contractor, I offered my services to act as the engineer's assistant for this task, then left him to complete the work alone.Dennis CooksonCatalina #577

John morrison

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Mar 15, 2021, 11:29:29 AMMar 15
to C320...@catalina320.com
I can buy the right length hose from the local chandlery already assembled. Doesn’t look like an issue getting the old one out nor new one in. I’ll take some piccys.
JohnM

Jack Brennan

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Mar 15, 2021, 11:35:41 AMMar 15
to C320...@catalina320.com
When you tighten the fittings, remember to use soap bubbles on them to ensure there is not a leak. Even a minor leak can be a danger.

Jack Brennan
Sonas, 1998 Catalina 320
Tierra Verde, Fl.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

Joe Luciano

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Mar 15, 2021, 11:55:59 AMMar 15
to C320...@catalina320.com
Wow. Glad we don’t have UK rules here in the States for propane systems. Replacing every 5 years with engineeed testing and certification is about as ultra-conservative as it comes. The biggest threat to the rubber hoses is likely chafe from the outside somewhere in the boat where you can’t see it. But, if you test your system by pressuring it up and watching the gauge to see that it stays at a given position for several hours, likely you are tight. And with a properly working solenoid in the locker and the fact that you turn the system on to cook and off afterwards, the hose is only pressured up for brief periods of time. Also, it’s downstream of the regulator, so it is a low pressure hose. This is why many people have had their systems in use well over 20 years. I have a crab cooker at home with a rubber hose on it to a propane tank. I’ve probably had this cooker for almost 40 years. Never had a problem with the hose on it. But, I also worked around propane systems in a refinery for the past 35 years. While their are known risks, common sense is a a good guide…..

Joe Luciano
Second Wind
#1044

Dennis Cookson

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Mar 15, 2021, 3:20:20 PMMar 15
to C320...@catalina320.com
Ken, that sentence should have read “typically 10mm, thick wall”. I don’t have the exact spec but my understanding is that the outer tube diameter would be typically 3/8” or 10mm, with a minimum wall thickness for ease of bending without buckling. The joints made on our boat are (a) where the pipe enters the gas locker, connected directly to the remotely-operated isolation valve, and (b) where the pipe enters the space immediately behind the hob. The latter joint is made to a braided hose which is fitted with a manual shut-off valve at the point it connects to the stove.

Dennis
Catalina #577

kendgb

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Mar 15, 2021, 4:50:59 PMMar 15
to C320...@catalina320.com
So are the tube end fittings mechanical fittings like some sort or compression fitting or they soldered or blazed on to the copper tube.KenSent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------From: Dennis Cookson <den...@cooksons.net> Date: 2021-03-15 15:20 (GMT-05:00) To: "C320...@catalina320.com" <C320...@Catalina320.com> Subject: [C320-list]  Replacing old rubber hose from gas bottle to stove Ken, that sentence should have read “typically 10mm, thick wall”. I don’t have the exact spec but my understanding is that the outer tube diameter would be typically 3/8” or 10mm, with a minimum wall thickness for ease of bending without buckling. The joints made on our boat are (a) where the pipe enters the gas locker, connected directly to the remotely-operated isolation valve, and (b) where the pipe enters the space immediately behind the hob. The latter joint is made to a braided hose which is fitted with a manual shut-off valve at the point it connects to the stove. DennisCatalina #577> On 15 Mar 2021, at 12:27, kendgb <ken...@aol.com> wrote:> > Hello Dennis.  Thanks for your info.  Can you tell the outside diameter of the copper tube used and where the copper was run to to attach to a rubber hose.  In other words where are the copper to rubber joints located.ThanksKen GeigerNorthern Dream #765 2000Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.> -------- Original message --------From: Dennis Cookson <den...@cooksons.net> Date: 2021-03-15  08:10  (GMT-05:00) To: C320...@catalina320.com Subject: [C320 There’s not a lot of information about this topic in the C320 discussion history, so I’m posting this as an advisory which might be helpful to other owners.We finally got around to replacing the rubber hose that runs from the propane gas locker on the aft port side to the gas stove in the galley, as an essential upgrade strongly recommended by our surveyor a while back. Although the existing hose still works fine and appears to be in good shape, it is well past its recommended lifetime for propane use of just 5 years.  This is because propane attacks the rubber from the inside, and it is impossible to see the internal stress and damage that may have occurred. Should you be unlucky enough to have a leak while the hose is pressurised, the escaping gas will sink to the bilges of the boat, being heavier than air, where it will stay until ventilated, creating a potentially disastrous hazard.It is usually a condition of insurance policies that gas installations are maintained to meet local regulations, and here in the UK, certified by ‘Gas Safe’ registered engineers.  The regulations state that the replacement must deploy copper pipe (typically 10mm thick wall) from the isolation valve in the gas locker all the way to a termination point with shut-off valve at the stove, with just a metre of flexible hose at each end for the connections.  The hose behind the stove should be braided for additional protection. So we can’t simply replace like for like.Although in theory you could perform the work yourself to the appropriate standards, it would still need to be checked, tested, and certified by a registered engineer to meet the insurance requirements. So this is an expensive job, and one that owners naturally prefer not to think about. But if your current installation is well over five years old, which many will be, it’s something you can’t really afford to ignore.The good news is that Catalina Yachts did make provision (at least from 1999, the year of our boat) for replacement of the hose run from underneath the gas locker to the cupboard under the galley sinks. There is a glassed in plastic conduit tube through which it is possible to pull through a new pipe, whether copper or rubber, using the old rubber one. It requires having one person in the port lazarette and another in the galley for this part of the job, which only takes a few minutes. The rest of the installation can be done by one person.  To avoid the expense of paying for a second contractor, I offered my services to act as the engineer's assistant for this task, then left him to complete the work alone.Dennis CooksonCatalina #577

Karl Krueger

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Mar 15, 2021, 5:51:14 PMMar 15
to C320...@catalina320.com
Hello All:

It's time for me to replace 4 (in the salon area) opening port light
hatches. It looks as if Catalina Direct has the best price.

Has anyone ordered these items from Catalina Direct? Also, any advice for
installation?

Regards,

Karl Krueger
Kindred Spirit #282
Milwaukee WI

On Mon, Mar 15, 2021 at 9:31 AM John morrison <sail-a...@sympatico.ca>
wrote:
--

[image: CRS-Designation-Logo_Horizontal_Color (1)]


Karl W Krueger - ABR, CRS, GRI,
RE/MAX Realty 100
Phone - 414-322-6541
Fax - 414-327-6870

Have a smooth sailing day.................................

Troy Dunn

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Mar 15, 2021, 6:00:17 PMMar 15
to C320...@catalina320.com
I order them from Defender. But this is definitely one of those items you
should shop around. It’s a standard Lewmar portlight. Don’t forget to
check shipping and handling times and pricing.

I used Bed-It butyl tape from Compass Marine. Make sure you get all the
old tape or caulk (hopefully the PO did not use caulk) off the gelcoat.
Also, check to make sure the core is sealed at the opening. If not it
would be wise to seal the core with thickened epoxy.

Good luck

Troy Dunn
Hull #514

Christian

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Mar 15, 2021, 6:05:21 PMMar 15
to C320...@catalina320.com
Karl,
mind if I ask motivation for replacing, and what you are replacing? Lens,
aluminum frame, gaskets, o-rings in dog ears?

Just ask because if it's to fix a leak, only replacing the lens might not
be the root of your problem.
1994 C320 #138 Chicago

On Mon, Mar 15, 2021 at 4:51 PM Karl Krueger <smooth...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Karl Krueger

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Mar 15, 2021, 6:15:31 PMMar 15
to C320...@catalina320.com
I'm replacing them because of leaks and the windows are very glazed.

Karl

Dave Hupe

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Mar 15, 2021, 6:23:42 PMMar 15
to C320...@catalina320.com
Mine were leaking only because the dog latch o-rings were dried out.  The o-rings  (on the outside part of the latch) are very small and I found inexpensive matching ones locally that I installed with teflon grease (which resolved the leak issue). Or, you can buy a kit from Catalina Direct with o-rings and grease. I have since pulled these latches apart annually to clean and regrease or replace the o-rings.
The latches are held together by one screw located inside the boat under a cap in the center of the handle.  It can be tough to remove the cap.  After my experience, I suggest drilling a small hole in the center of each cap and threading a small wood screw into it to grab and pull the cap off.  I left these caps off permanently. Aklso, make sure to spread a light coat of grease on the surfaces of the latch that may touch the acrylic lens (to make opening easier and prevent scoring of the lens). 
Dave Hupe
1994 C320 (#32)
Holland, MI  


Christian

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Mar 15, 2021, 6:28:42 PMMar 15
to C320...@catalina320.com
When I bought my 320 5 years ago, I went down the rabbit hole of chasing
leaks from many of my opening port lights. First started with replacing
the O ring in the dog ears. Still leaked. Then replaced the gaskets on
all (super annoying job due to factory silicon adhesive), still leaked.
Wasn't until I read about the G gasket (in the seam of the aluminum frame,
viewable external, on the horizontal split), until I realized mine were
rotten on almost all port lights. Was a relative easy fix with Dow 795,
and carefully taping off the seam. No more leaks. Just mentioning that
new lens alone might not stop your leak.

On Mon, Mar 15, 2021 at 5:15 PM Karl Krueger <smooth...@gmail.com>

Dave Hupe

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Mar 15, 2021, 7:11:17 PMMar 15
to C320...@catalina320.com
Check this link for Lewmar ports/parts Lewmar Ports and Parts (sailboatowners.com) as comparison with Catalina Direct.
Dave Hupe1994 C320 (#32)


Graeme Clark

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Mar 15, 2021, 7:20:59 PMMar 15
to C320...@catalina320.com
Joe

I’m in the Uk and it’s not quite as bad as it reads! There is a boat safety scheme but this only applies (mandatory) to boats on inland waterways, mainly canal boats and similar that cruise up and down the rivers.
The requirement for an approved (Gas Safe) mechanic to do the work is primarily to do with buildings.
As the owner of a sea-going boat we are not legally obliged to follow any of those rules although some insurance companies might decline to pay out if it could be shown you hadn’t had regular maintenance done by a competent person
Parts of my gas supply are original (1996 boat)!
I allowed myself to be talked (by a “gas safe” mechanic) into replacing my regulator with one that has an over pressure relief valve. This then removed the originally fitted pressure gauge, one of the best leak detecting devices you’ll ever have!
The OPRV is (IMHO) a complete waste of time on a boat with an external vented gas locker contains a few pounds of propane. The only way it will blow (in British weather) is if the boat is on fire, in which case that’s the least of my issues!
Graeme
#366

Sent from my iPad

> On 15 Mar 2021, at 15:56, Joe Luciano <jnlu...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> Wow. Glad we don’t have UK rules here in the States for propane systems. Replacing every 5 years with engineeed testing and certification is about as ultra-conservative as it comes. The biggest threat to the rubber hoses is likely chafe from the outside somewhere in the boat where you can’t see it. But, if you test your system by pressuring it up and watching the gauge to see that it stays at a given position for several hours, likely you are tight. And with a properly working solenoid in the locker and the fact that you turn the system on to cook and off afterwards, the hose is only pressured up for brief periods of time. Also, it’s downstream of the regulator, so it is a low pressure hose. This is why many people have had their systems in use well over 20 years. I have a crab cooker at home with a rubber hose on it to a propane tank. I’ve probably had this cooker for almost 40 years. Never had a problem with the hose on it. But, I also worked around propane systems in a refinery for the past 35 years. While their are known risks, common sense is a a good guide…..

John Morrison

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Mar 16, 2021, 7:54:35 AMMar 16
to C320...@catalina320.com
Do the Karl Kruger suggest fix. I did that 10 years ago on my boat and haven’t seen a drop since. The method is well described on our website.
JohnM 1999
#574

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 15, 2021, at 7:11 PM, Dave Hupe <hoop...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>  Check this link for Lewmar ports/parts Lewmar Ports and Parts (sailboatowners.com) as comparison with Catalina Direct.
> Dave Hupe1994 C320 (#32)
>
>

Bruce Hunter

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Mar 16, 2021, 11:34:41 AMMar 16
to C320...@catalina320.com, John Morrison, C320...@catalina320.com
Karl,        I just ordered both large hatches, the small head hatch (currently back ordered) and all 4 portlights (complete) from Catalina Direct. I also ordered all new window shades from them. This was all last Thursday, as of now they are all on the way except the head hatch and I have to double check the trapezoidal window shade to see if they worked it out. Just getting cataract surgery today, an unforseen work offer (I'm semi retired and my company just offered a temporary high pay full time gig) and Yacht Club Fleet Captain commitments have distracted me.      We are casually considering moving to a larger Catalina so I figure if we keep it we will enjoy new glass and shades, if we sell it'll reflect in the asking price so I see no downsides. 
Bruce HunterNaughty Time #719

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 7:54 AM, John Morrison<sail-a...@sympatico.ca> wrote: Do the Karl Kruger suggest fix. I did that 10 years ago on my boat and haven’t seen a drop since. The method is well described on our website.
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