[C320-list] Upwind performance

[Rick Thompson]

Hello everyone,
My wife and I are seriously considering purchasing a C320 for cruising and racing phrf on Lake of the Woods, Ontario.
We just sold our first keelboat , a Mirage 25, the past week.

We like the huge interior and 2 separate cabins and swim transom.

Because LOW is in the Canadian shield there are definite low water hazards. Most are well charted.

I was wondering if you racer/ cruisers could give me feedback on the C320 performance with both wing and fin keel?
I've also noticed that the Catalina's seem to be heavier than similar length boats, also. Heavier construction? More material due to carrying more beam?
Upwind performance is important because LOW has many islands so you always seem to be beating the wind to get around them.
How would the performance of a C320 compare to say a C&C32? The C&C has a similar phrf at 150, narrower beam and lighter at about 9800lb.
Of course it's the older traditional design, without the open transom, 2 cabins etc.
Thanks,
Rick Thompson

R Thompson

[Jane & Ken]

Rick,  Our 320 was the fifth sailboat we owned.  We previously raced a Peterson 25 and won many trophies over the years.  The 320 was the best mix of racing/cruising combination we found.  When we retired from hard core racing, we loved the creature comforts that the 320 provided and the grandkids enjoyed the 'floating condo'.
We sold her after seventeen years and she still looked and sailed great.   Ken

--- On Thu, 3/14/13, Rick Thompson <rick...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Rick Thompson]

Thank you for your input!
Rick

R Thompson

[Rick Thompson]

Awesome food for thought!
Thanks
Rick

R Thompson

On 2013-03-14, at 2:56 PM, Andrew Santangelo <andrew_s...@mac.com> wrote:

> I can speak with experience on this topic. Originally Dawn Treader had the Wing Keel. It was fine for cruising and all, but we did seem to be disadvantaged with the wing keel racing wise.
>
> Three years later I had the wing keel removed, and the fin keel installed. The difference was profound.
>
> I could point substantially better (I want to say up to a +10 deg improvement), and she was certainly quicker on all points of sail. Carrying less weight certainly did help.
>
> Our PHRF way back when changed from 156 to 150, but then it was upped back to 156! Basically a sailor was punished with the wing keel. Once this move was made - along with the hydraulic backstay, auto prop, racing sails, etc. we placed or won in almost every race series. Our last big race before moving to SFO was the Queen's Cup and we placed 3rd in our division. C320 is a very competitive boat. Another C320 seemed to win it almost all the time.
>
> And yes, Dawn Treader is moving back to the Great Lakes this summer, and I hope to be racing again this fall out of Holland again.
>
> FYI - with the fin keel DO MIND the depth!
>
>
> Andrew Santangelo
>
> C320 "Dawn Treader"
> #333
> San Francisco, CA
>
> J22 "Blitzkrieg"
> Elephant Butte, New Mexico

[Amiraults Family]

Rick:



I race PHRF-LO JAM on the Ottawa River. The boat is a wing keel, the sails
are in good condition but not racing quality, there is no adjustable
backstay and I have a feathering prop. My boat NEVER wins, but there is
ALWAYS beers on board at the end of the evening. We are competitive with
other wing keel Catalinas (and usually beat them) but simply cannot point as
high as the fin keel boats like the usually winning Niagara 31 with its
racing sails, narrow beam and 8500lb displacement. If winning is important
then avoid the wing keel.



If draft is important then go with the wing keel.



Either way, if livability is important then go with the open transom and
swim platform. I race for fun and really don't need the glassware (single
glass) awarded in the fall for the winner in each race series. In my harbor,
the Niagara did not race for much of the summer of '11 'cause her 5' draft
could not leave the harbor due to the unusually low water levels that year.
In that year I only tapped bottom twice. I wanted to race but we needed the
livability and so in the search for our current boat open transom was a
must-have.



As to the weight; when you're lucky you get what you pay for. Any boat with
this broad a beam will weigh more as there is simply more material used in
the construction to yield the volume. When comparing apples, like Catalina
and the Jenn-ateaus you will find the former displaces more. But then the
hull is solid glass and not a lighter glass/foam sandwich. It thus goes
slower with everything else equal. Still, in my the last race collision
(summer '07 and the protest committee ruled the boat hitting mine 100%
at-fault) I was racing again the next week with duct tape over the hole
while he was out most of the summer for repair.



There is also something to be said - over an older design - for DC
refrigeration, gas stove/oven, head near the companionway, and a shower.
Oh, and those older narrower boats tend to have cockpits snugly-perfect for
sailing but not so roomy for living on the hook with the family.



I love my 320 and so does the family.



Brian Amirault

797 Waltzing Bear, too

[Rick Thompson]

Hi Brian,
Thank you very much for your very informative insight regarding your 320 experience!

Do you race with a 155 Dacron genoa or something smaller?

Your type of sailing seems to be similar to the sailing we would most enjoy. It is usually just 2 of us nearly 50 year olds cruising or white sail racing. Sometimes our adult son and girlfriend or another joins us. The large interior with separate cabins would be welcome.
My wife says the open transom is an absolute must.
We also want to be competitive for PHRF regattas and races so I would lean towards the fin keel. Lake of the Woods definitely has low hazards which are mostly on the chart.
We also have "tapped bottom" on occasion, usually when we are paying attention to other things besides the chart. When you hit at LOW it's almost always into solid rock and it's not nice!
Do you know of anyone breaking open a 320 from a keel hit?
I enjoying the pace and chaos of the racing.
My wife likes the racing but does not like Not winning! She would prefer a shallow draft keel.

Life and sailing is so full of compromises!
The debate and search continues.
Thanks again
Rick

R Thompson

[Tony Murphy]

Rick,

We have hull #886 (wing keel) currently under 3 ft of snow in Walker, MN on Leech Lake. I can't answer many questions about racing, as I've only had Bella Sol in one regatta and the poor performance had more to do with the inexperience of the captain than anything else.

We've also only had her for 1 year now, but I can tell you I can't think of a better boat for our "weekend cruising"... It's 100% the best "up north cabin" we could have ever picked.

Of course, with the spring we're having (or should I say extended winter), I'm not hopeful about getting her splashed until early to mid May. Already counting the years until we can move her to warmer waters!!

Feel free to contact me off-list if I can be of any help (reminding you that I've already stated my limited knowledge).


Tony
Bella Sol #886

Sent from my iPhone

[Warren Updike]

I'm not a racer and otherwise not interested much in performance, so I'll
not comment on those aspects. This post is more about the wing keel than
performance. I have heard that the wing keels while not great on pointing
are runaways on downwind. I've no idea why this would be so; but, I haven't
seen it mentioned so I throw it out there.

However, when it comes to grounding, I've had a bit of experience there.
Sailing on the Chesapeake it is said that there are only two kinds of
sailors: those who have grounded and those who will. Fortunately, the Bay
is "99.44% pure" mud or sand, so damage is usually avoided. Patience is a
must as a solid grounding requires a tow or wait for higher tide. Once, I
grounded the rudder on rock and waited-out the tide. Even then, the bottom
of the rudder opened and required repair.

From my experience, a low-speed ground while motoring is best handled by
immediate reverse and power back. Unless you know the bottom contours,
backing out is the safest bet. Crew to the bow can help to raise the back
of the wing. Once on the bottom, the wide bottom of the wing creates a
suction effect that is hard to break. Kedging a halyard to create heel can
be helpful; but, not like with a fin keel. I've had a successful recovery
with a kedge; but, only when I had deeper water ahead.

Warren & Pattie Updike
1994 C320 #62 "Warr De Mar"

[Allan S Field]

One needs to be careful when backing down when stuck however. The risk is
significant of sucking sand and mud into the engine thru-hull. I am not
sure of the veracity of this but have been told it can clog the system.

[wfl...@aim.com]

Acouple of years ago I was moving upwind pretty well (5 kts or so) when I encountered the bottom of the lake with my fin keel. Once that happens, your Fin Keels upwind performance sucks. When I hit, the bow suddenly went down and the aft end lifted up, and the boat instantly stopped. I immediately released the genoa and mainsheets, furled both sails (I have in-mast), checked below for leaks (didn't want to head for deeper water if I was going to sink), started the engine and was able to back out the same way I went in. The bottom was mud with some rocks. I'm not sure if it would have required a tow with the wing keel. That fall when I hauled the boat for a bottom job, the only sign of my grounding was a small 1" divot in the leading edge of the keel. These boats are pretty tough.

Bill
#1146

[Jeff Hare]

What could be worse is the sand that makes it through the filter can score the lining of the raw water pump and may damage its ability to prime.

Jeff

[Bruce Heyman]

I agree. Even if it doesn't clog the intake you don't want the silt and fine sand to make it into the raw water pump. The pump is made of relatively soft metal and easily scores which then reduces the efficiency of the pump.
Bruce
Somerset Dana Point, CA

Bruce Heyman
(949) 289-8400

[bkue...@comcast.net]

Wing keel 320 compared to a 32 C&C?

That’s a joke right?

I had a C&C. I could sail that boat damn near straight into the wind.

Not so much with the Catalina.

I bought the Catalina to be comfortable for the family, and NOT be the
(completely) last boat to the anchorage. Its actually not terribly slow.
Helps to have a folding prop :)

The C&C would be there first and all the beer would be gone by the time the
rest showed up.

R Thompson =

[Bruce Hunter]

Getting ready to splash, I figured I'd check the PSS Dripless seal since it dribbled here and there when we had the boat for the 6 short weeks last year before we pulled it. I loosened the collar set screws and slid the SS collar foreward to see if the bellows had any compression, it didn't, it was basically fully relaxed but by maybe 1/16" (Yes I took a before measurement). At this position it left very little clearance for bellows compression. Looking at the instructions it says NOT to place the bellows too far aft but to only go as far down on the shaft housing as the bellows collar length. I did as the instructions said and compressed the bellows just about 3/4". I also backed up the SS collar using a shaft anode as a security clamp. I also noticed the bellows actually went over a rubber bushing and not directly to the bare shaft housing, I didn't see that in the instructions but it looks like it came with the kit. Anyway I think I have it
right, just checking here to see how anyone who has this on their 320 would have any input.
 
Thanks,
Bruce
Nauti Time #719

[Jeff Hare]

Hi Bruce,

The bellows on ours fit directly over the shaft log (the fitting where the
shaft goes through the hull). If yours has an extra rubber hose over it,
maybe they ordered a larger size than they intended and had to add a chunk
of hose to make the shaft log a bit larger so the bellows would clamp on.
In any event, I wouldn't worry about that if it's not leaking.

It sounds like you did the right thing by sliding the SS Ring aft and
compressing the bellows a bit. It's an approximation, and if it still leaks
some after running the engine in gear for 15 or 20 minutes, you may just
need to compress the bellows a little more.

Be sure to keep the wooden board covers in place when you're running the
engine in gear. If the seal isn't perfect yet, and there's any dripping,
you'll get a spray of black graphite that spins off the shaft and it'll
stain the interior of your cabin if that happens!

Also, you might want to plug up the drain hole that leads under the engine
pan and soak up any drippings with a towel while doing this. No sense
letting water run into a place that really doesn't drain well on its own.

Cheers!
-Jeff

PS: I called PYI to ask them questions about adjusting mine and when I told
them I had the model that wasn't vented, they took my name/address and sent
me free replacement parts to upgrade mine to the vented version. I never
installed it and changed back to my original stuffing box with the GFO Brand
Dripless Packing. I find this actually lets less water in the boat overall
than the PSS did and there's almost no chance of a catastrophic failure. I
still have my PSS in excellent shape along with the unused Vented upgrade
kit in a box.