[C320-list] Perkins heat exchanger

[Dan Winsor via C320-list]

I know there is an abundance of this topic on record but just a quick
question.
What retains the tube-stack within the heat exchanger? Is it possible to
change the stack without pulling the box?
Ok, 2 questions.
Thx,
Dan Winsor
Lucky Devil #109

[Dave Hupe via C320-list]

The big front and rear rubber boots clamp simultaneously to both the heat exchanger tank and the "tube stack" inside. That is why you see two large clamps around each boot.  The larger clamp is clamping onto the hole thru the tank while the slightly smaller clamp is holding onto the end of the tube. If the boots are removed, it is possible to slide the tube out of the tank. 
Yes ... you do not need to actually remove the heat exchanger tank from the engine.
I changed my heat exchanger tank so I should be able to send you some photos to demonstrate this tomorrow. 
Dave Hupe 
1994 C320 #32
Holland,  MI
.  

Yahoo Mail: Search, Organize, Conquer

On Thu, Sep 12, 2024 at 8:54 PM, Dan Winsor via C320-list<c320...@lists.catalina320.com> wrote: I know there is an abundance of this topic on record but just a quick

[Dan Winsor via C320-list]

Thank you Dave, don't know what we would do without you. Lucky Devil is in
my yard, stripped. I ran the diesel for an hour without overheating then
got brave and tried the 6 mounting bolts. All 6 loosened nicely and I have
all the parts, except the tank, on hand for rebuilding including water pump
and all rubbers. Really wanted to ID the source of coolant lose before
tearing it down but....

[Steve Weinstein via C320-list]

Dan,I had a Perama M20 on my former C270 and had a coolant leak.  Turned out it was in the heat exchanger in the wall of the exhaust manifold.  If the M30 is similar, the heat exchanger works as both the exhaust manifold and the heat exchanger for the engine cooling system.  Over time, the hot exhaust ate away at the manifold and created a hole into the heat exchanger water tank.  If you have the engine apart, I would suggest examining the manifold closely for a possible pinhole between the exhaust and the heat exchanger tank.  
As far as the tube stack goes, as noted, it's easy to slide it out once you have the rugger end caps and hose clamps removed.  A little gentle persuasion may be needed but be very careful.  If there is any buildup in the tubes, you can easily clean them out with a piece of threaded rod and flush them out.  I got the threaded rod at Ace Hardware, just need to find the right size.  And work carefully, you don't want to damage those tubes.
Hope the helps,Steve Weinstein2000 C320 #722, Vega

[P.F. Ross via C320-list]

Dan, I will echo what Steve just said. If you have the tank off, carefully
inspect for any holes between exhaust path and coolant tank.

I am way behind on reporting on my smoke issue from March of this year, but
it turned out to be a broken exhaust valve. I will post a complete report
on that soon but one thing that did show up was a carboned up exhaust path
where the tank connects to the exhaust hose. As my mechanic was gingerly
trying to clean it up, he found a hole between the exhaust manifold and
coolant tank sections. At this point, the cast iron tank became a small
anchor and a replacement would be needed.

Hopefully, you do not have this problem since new tanks seem to be no
longer available from Perkins or others. Fortunately, I found a NOS one in
England from Marine Enterprises (https://www.marineenterprisesltd.co.uk/).
Jonathan Staple there was incredibly helpful. I did look at others on ebay
but all were second hand. In any case, they do not give these things away.

I also used the threaded rod trick as described by Steve to clean out my
heat exchanger tubes. But really, all my tubes were incredibly clean as is.

Best wishes,

Frank Ross
Beta Wave #206

[Dave Hupe via C320-list]

I bought a new heat exchanger tank from 
https://parts4engines.com/collections/perkins-perama-m30-parts?page=2&grid_list=grid-view several years ago but have not seen it available for a long time.  However, it would be a good idea to email them and ask if needed. They have been very responsive for  me over the years. Their pricing (including oversees shipping) and speed has always been great .... exceeding US firms.

Dave Hupe 
1994 C320 #32

Yahoo Mail: Search, Organize, Conquer

On Fri, Sep 13, 2024 at 1:26 PM, P.F. Ross via C320-list<c320...@lists.catalina320.com> wrote: Dan, I will echo what Steve just said.  If you have the tank off, carefully

[P.F. Ross via C320-list]

Dave, they were one of the first people I checked with and they did not
have any tanks as of April, 2024. But always worth a try if someone needs
one!

Frank Ross
Beta Wave #206

On Fri, Sep 13, 2024 at 2:22 PM Dave Hupe via C320-list <

[Dave Hupe via C320-list]

Try here .... look under Perkins M series https://www.tadiesels.com/heat-exchangers-manifolds.html

Dave Hupe 
1994 C320 #32

Yahoo Mail: Search, Organize, Conquer

On Fri, Sep 13, 2024 at 3:28 PM, P.F. Ross via C320-list<c320...@lists.catalina320.com> wrote: Dave, they were one of the first people I checked with and they did not

[Steve Weinstein via C320-list]

When I had the problem with the C270 M20, Perkins did a worldwide search for me and found nothing.  But that was at the height of Covid and their foundry in Europe was shut down.  Don't know if it ever came back on line.  I ended up getting a good quality used one from a parts company in England.  Don't remember the name but they part out old marine engines and were very helpful.  They happened to have an M20 they were just taking apart, same vintage as mine, so I got lucky.  I don't remember the name of the company, but might be able to find it in old emails if it's needed.  All my paperwork went to the buyer when I sold the boat to get the C320.
Steve Weinstein, 2000 C320 #722, Vega

[Dan Winsor via C320-list]

WOW guys, thank you very much for your responses. Let me give you the
complete picture
For a few years I have been noting a very minor loss of coolant. Found a
leak at the hot water tank and replaced it and the hoses from the engine,
replaced coolant with new.
Also replaced radiator cap and hose to expansion tank because the exp tank
level stayed constant while the tank level decreased.
A few more seasons went by, basically no issues. Never overheated but at
end of season I would add coolant to exp tank and coolant tank. Less than a
cup full total.
In late July my diesel failed to start for the first time in my 20 years of
operation. I determined that all of the glow plugs were infinite
resistance to ground and replaced them. In the interim between diagnosing
and replacement I started the engine 4 times using starting fluid. (<second
spray while stopped, then start) After replacing the glow plugs starting
returned to normal but I started getting whiffs of hot glycol from time to
time. I started adding coolant after every run, always < cup.
On a longer run (3+ hours) I saw the temp gage at 200+ and shut down. I
also saw some coolant in the engine bilge.
I ran the engine briefly a few times, always filling the tank first.
We hauled out on Wednesday and on Thursday I cleaned the bilge of a cup or
two of coolant and ran the diesel for an hour at 2000 rpm using an open 5
gal pail and hose. It never went above 170 and it did not leak anywhere. I
have yet to pull the cap and see what level is but I did crack the 6
exhaust header bolts loose and then snug them.
I have a new tubestack, hose set, gasket set, exhaust elbow, and water pump
on hand. (I noted that the water pump pulley has a slight amount of play)
My plan was to renew the cooling system but the tank seems to be
unavailable.
There you have it. My sad story. I'll appreciate your feedback having taken
the time to read this novel. Dave has brought up head gasket possibilities.
I am thinking that the coolant in the bilge came from one time when I
filled the coolant tank to the cap and over-filled the expansion tank.
Tomorrow I will see how much coolant is gone from the 1 hour run and I'll
update the post.
Thanks guys!

Dan Winsor
Lucky Devil #109

[Bob Borelli via C320-list]

Thank you all! I am following your emails.
I plan to push out the 'tube stack' for cleaning & will inspect the exhaust ports on the heat exchanger.
I pulled the exhaust elbow, filled out some carbon build up, tried to reach my file into the heat exchanger, no avail.
I have operated my M30 at 2500 rpms vice 2800 rpms for 99.92 hours this 2024 season so far.
At 2500 rpms no white smoke, no problems, starts right up.
Fingers crossed.

Bob Borelli
C320 # 209 with Perkins M30
________________________________
From: C320-list <c320-lis...@lists.catalina320.com> on behalf of Dan Winsor via C320-list <c320...@lists.catalina320.com>
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2024 7:58 PM
To: C320...@catalina320.com <C320...@catalina320.com>
Cc: Dan Winsor <dandw...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [C320-list] Perkins heat exchanger

> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tadiesels.com%2Fheat-exchangers-manifolds.html&data=05%7C02%7C%7Cbd670b1a342a45a7fa7208dcd450094c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638618687441929105%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=tFwQGxU%2BpuX1VY87OZaw%2F50zdiu9JWm8SDWqWSYaBFA%3D&reserved=0<https://www.tadiesels.com/heat-exchangers-manifolds.html>

> Dave Hupe
> 1994 C320 #32
>
> Yahoo Mail: Search, Organize, Conquer
>
> On Fri, Sep 13, 2024 at 3:28 PM, P.F. Ross via C320-list<
> c320...@lists.catalina320.com> wrote: Dave, they were one of the first
> people I checked with and they did not
> have any tanks as of April, 2024. But always worth a try if someone needs
> one!
>
> Frank Ross
> Beta Wave #206
>
> On Fri, Sep 13, 2024 at 2:22 PM Dave Hupe via C320-list <
> c320...@lists.catalina320.com> wrote:
>
> > I bought a new heat exchanger tank from
> >
> >

> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fparts4engines.com%2Fcollections%2Fperkins-perama-m30-parts%3Fpage%3D2%26grid_list%3Dgrid-view&data=05%7C02%7C%7Cbd670b1a342a45a7fa7208dcd450094c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638618687441942214%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=qIGa%2BsetUWBJaJeI4DGsOUXMgi38cupf6%2FL71kX%2BvO4%3D&reserved=0<https://parts4engines.com/collections/perkins-perama-m30-parts?page=2&grid_list=grid-view>

> > England from Marine Enterprises (https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.marineenterprisesltd.co.uk%2F&data=05%7C02%7C%7Cbd670b1a342a45a7fa7208dcd450094c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638618687441957064%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=VmUlNjS4i%2Fotxzzf4P%2Fzylc0p7AnJ7cwjBQtRTQmaZE%3D&reserved=0

[Dave Hupe via C320-list]

You wouldn't be able to inspect the heat exchanger exhaust ports without removing the tank from the engine.

Dave Hupe
1994 C320 #32

Yahoo Mail: Search, Organize, Conquer

On Fri, Sep 13, 2024 at 8:25 PM, Bob Borelli via C320-list<c320...@lists.catalina320.com> wrote: Thank you all!  I am following your emails.

[Dan Winsor via C320-list]

Update: I removed the manifold/heat exchanger and put it in the vice
leaving the hoses attached as well as the tubestack and boots. I connected
the hoses from the water pump with a tee and attached a garden hose to the
third leg of the tee. This allowed me to fill and pressurize the fresh
water side of the unit with the radiator cap protecting from over pressure.
As soon as it got to pressure, a steady stream flowed from the exhaust
elbow. I believe this confirms a cracked or hole from exhaust to fresh
water thus condemning the housing. As many have stated, finding a
replacement will be near impossible but I'll be optimistic and hope someone
still has one on the shelf.

Dan Winsor
Lucky Devil #109

On Sat, Sep 14, 2024, 08:47 Dave Hupe via C320-list <

[P.F. Ross via C320-list]

Dan, great troubleshooting but so sorry to hear about your problem.

Tied up this morn, but later I will list everyone I spoke to about finding
a tank, FWIW. You may know the Volvo MD 2030 is pretty much the same
engine and you can search for parts from those as well.

Right now, there is a tank and tubestack on ebay from the Volvo:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/134983715246?_skw=volvo+md2030&itmmeta=01J7TWXDSN486G88RKJ1QM7EFA&hash=item1f6da809ae:g:y8oAAOSwv9pkJNzN&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA0HoV3kP08IDx%2BKZ9MfhVJKntc4iRvA7J5EjxIiSggrhnuv6BYuvWEYw%2BLck%2BRdVGeiLBHklQkOaF7RnxKNLNozdPUSlPxqp4%2FzAAb4IH789aSh3iXuYGJ8vw4nWs%2FKq1MJ%2BxtFPpqarR8%2BSMF6WTQVKgezQdpEMEqy40loNtLdqbLPcvPDgbFOjktq5iBWnUz3NL57GukAdCGPPPcAwov6Vxtv4t5GmtF5oJA8FIbPU1s9m8aZiLoTEcZ0lkkf4P7E%2FlwSLUfcth5n1lZ%2FdcNho%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR_Tc9dy-ZA

I have no connection to ebay or this auction but when I was looking
earlier this year I believe this particular unit was for sale then, so
maybe you can make an offer. Also know that I cannot state unequivocally
that this particular tank will fit. One thing I can see from the pic is
that there is a large plug sealing a tapped hole on the side of the unit.
In my case, there was simply a cast-in boss without a tapped hole.

As a data point, I paid a total of about $1,500 including shipping in April
of this year for my NOS unit I found in England.

Good luck, and I will send more info later.

Regards,

Frank Ross
Beta Wave #206

On Sun, Sep 15, 2024 at 7:48 AM Dan Winsor via C320-list <

[Dave Hupe via C320-list]

Dan-
For your test (very inventive), I assume you had the end rubber boots attached and each end clamped securely on both the tank and tube stack? 
Actually, I think your test suggests that the tube stack has a leak.  Water in the pressurized tank should not permeate the tube stack and flow out the exhaust elbow.  If the tank actually were bad, shouldn't  leakage occur somewhere on the outside of the tank itself or out of the exhaust ports (where mounted to the engine)?
Can you pull the tube stack out of the tank, attach the rubber boots to its ends and pressurize it to see if it leaks?

Dave Hupe 
1994 C320 #32
Yahoo Mail: Search, Organize, Conquer

> > England from Marine Enterprises (https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.marineenterprisesltd.co.uk%2F&data=05%7C02%7C%7Cbd670b1a342a45a7fa7208dcd450094c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638618687441957064%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=VmUlNjS4i%2Fotxzzf4P%2Fzylc0p7AnJ7cwjBQtRTQmaZE%3D&reserved=0

[Dave Hupe via C320-list]

Actually Dan ..... can you do your test again and look up into the exhaust elbow and differentiate ... is the water dripping out of the rubber nipple where the rubber boot connects to the exhaust elbow?  That would indicate the tube stack is bad/leaking.  If you can't  see it, maybe disconnect the rubber ripple from the exhaust elbow during your test .... direct discharge from the disconnected nipple will confirm a tube stack leak.
However, if during your test you can confirm the leakage is not from the nipple, then you are probably correct that the tank/housing is leaking somewhere right near the exhaust elbow.

Dave Hupe
1994 C320 #32

Yahoo Mail: Search, Organize, Conquer

[Dan Winsor via C320-list]

Dave and Frank, thank you for jumping in to help me!
First step will be along the path Dave has proposed to eliminate the fresh
water to salt water to exhaust path. I was aware of this possibility but
considered it unlikely due to gravity and very low injection flow rate. I
have a new tube stack on hand as well as a new SS exhaust elbow should I
want to go that route. I will start by rotating the aft end rubber so as to
open up the salt water to exhaust connection and repeating the test.

Dan Winsor
Lucky Devil #109

On Sun, Sep 15, 2024, 09:55 Dave Hupe <hoop...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Actually Dan ..... can you do your test again and look up into the exhaust
> elbow and differentiate ... is the water dripping out of the rubber nipple
> where the rubber boot connects to the exhaust elbow? That would indicate
> the tube stack is bad/leaking. If you can't see it, maybe disconnect the
> rubber ripple from the exhaust elbow during your test .... direct discharge
> from the disconnected nipple will confirm a tube stack leak.
>
> However, if during your test you can confirm the leakage is not from the
> nipple, then you are probably correct that the tank/housing is leaking
> somewhere right near the exhaust elbow.
>
> Dave Hupe
>
> 1994 C320 #32
>
> Yahoo Mail: Search, Organize, Conquer

> <https://mail.onelink.me/107872968?pid=NativePlacement&c=Global_Acquisition_YMktg_315_EmailSignatureGrowth_YahooMail:Search,Organize,Conquer&af_sub1=Acquisition&af_sub2=Global_YMktg&af_sub3=&af_sub4=100000945&af_sub5=OrganizeConquer__Static_>

>
> On Sun, Sep 15, 2024 at 9:25 AM, Dave Hupe
> <hoop...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Dan-
>
> For your test (very inventive), I assume you had the end rubber boots
> attached and each end clamped securely on both the tank and tube stack?
>
> Actually, I think your test suggests that the tube stack has a leak.
> Water in the pressurized tank should not permeate the tube stack and flow
> out the exhaust elbow. If the tank actually were bad, shouldn't leakage
> occur somewhere on the outside of the tank itself or out of the exhaust
> ports (where mounted to the engine)?
>
> Can you pull the tube stack out of the tank, attach the rubber boots to
> its ends and pressurize it to see if it leaks?
>
> Dave Hupe
>
> 1994 C320 #32
>
> Yahoo Mail: Search, Organize, Conquer

> <https://mail.onelink.me/107872968?pid=NativePlacement&c=Global_Acquisition_YMktg_315_EmailSignatureGrowth_YahooMail:Search,Organize,Conquer&af_sub1=Acquisition&af_sub2=Global_YMktg&af_sub3=&af_sub4=100000945&af_sub5=OrganizeConquer__Static_>
>
>

[Dan Winsor via C320-list]

I repeated the test with the aft rubber end cap disconnected from the
exhaust elbow. There was steady flow from the exhaust elbow and none from
the end cap.

Dan Winsor
Lucky Devil #109

[Dave Hupe via C320-list]

Seems pretty conclusive your heat exchanger tank has a crack near the mount if the exhause elbow. 
I sent a link a couple days ago to TransAtlantic Diesels that showed the M30 tank and associated items https://www.tadiesels.com/heat-exchangers-manifolds.htmlDid you contact them in all the possible sources?

Great diagnosing!

[Dan Winsor via C320-list]

Thx Dave. I did try TAD and Parts4engines with no luck but I'm not giving
up.

> <https://mail.onelink.me/107872968?pid=NativePlacement&c=Global_Acquisition_YMktg_315_EmailSignatureGrowth_YahooMail:Search,Organize,Conquer&af_sub1=Acquisition&af_sub2=Global_YMktg&af_sub3=&af_sub4=100000945&af_sub5=OrganizeConquer__Static_>
>
>

[P.F. Ross via C320-list]

Dan and all,

When I discovered my heat exchanger tank was corroded to the point of
leaking, I figured I would just find a new one. I was ultimately able to
find one, but it was a chore.

I started with Perkins go-to suppliers of Trans Atlantic Diesels and
Parts4Engines. Both came back no stock and no suggestions as to where to
go next. TAD had a nice breakdown of the tank on their website, shared
earlier by Dave Hupe, but here again is that link:

https://www.tadiesels.com/heat-exchangers-manifolds.html#BLUE

Go down to item #13 and you can see p/n is 135606270.

I did a google search for every term I could think of like "Perkins Perama
coolant tank", "Perkins M30 coolant tank", "Perkins M30 heat exchanger",
"Volvo Penta coolant tank" and several others. I took a pic of my heat
exchanger tank (now removed from engine) and drafted an email with the pic
and part number 135606270. I also included my engine build list and serial
number (KD30243J and 458394Y in my case) and sent out mass emails.

I was able to find some results on ebay as well as other boat salvage yards
but I really wanted to find an unused one if possible.

The best results I had were from Joe DeMers at Sound Marine Diesel (
https://www.soundmarinediesel.com/index.html) and Jonathan Staple at Marine
Enterprises in UK (https://www.marineenterprisesltd.co.uk/). Both said
they had a NOS tank, but in the end Joe was not able to get his hands on
one, so I went with Marine Enterprises and they were great to deal with.

I did a quick search today and found this link:

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f54/volvo-heat-exchange-problem-246898.html

Interesting thing here is that this sailor was apparently able to find a
way to repair his tank.

Also searching today, these guys show a couple of used units from Volvo
Pentas that may work, but please verify that yourself and don't take my
word for it:

https://shipwrecksalvage.net/inboard-engine-components-c-7/volvo-penta-heat-exchanger-housing-3580322-p-6037.html

These guys also say they have overhauled units for Volvo:

https://www.shipoutletstore.com/en/search/volvo+penta+heat+exchanger/

In other searches I find Chinese companies that say they have them, but as
you drill down they are not available.

I also talked to Warren Pandy at the factory and he had no sources either.
Apparently, Catalina got away from Perkins in the late 90s when Perkins
changed up their distributor networks which would leave Catalina without
local support. At least that is the way I understood things. And
certainly, I got no support from Perkins or their distributors on my issue.

Best of luck to you, Dan. I am sure there will be many interested sailors
here following your progress.

Frank Ross
Beta Wave #206

[Dan Winsor via C320-list]

Wow Frank, thanks for the info and the good luck wishes.
I am blessed (cursed?) with a very tenacious admiral who will try her best
with this challenge. I'll keep the group posted, once I have mine that is.
Thanks to everyone that has contributed thus far.

Dan Winsor
Lucky Devil #109

[Dan Winsor via C320-list]

UPDATE: Thanks to recent suggestions, I believe I found the last new heat
exchanger casing in the world. It's NOS, in the box, Volvo Penta SM2030
that I found at SOS. I verified that Perkins sold their M30 to Volvo who
changed the paint scheme and the bell housing. It was about $1300 and
should ship tomorrow. With my other parts I should be able to have a new
cooling system soon.
Love this list thing.

Dan Winsor
Lucky Devil #109

[Dave Hupe via C320-list]

Very glad you found it.  Sorry that I got a new original Perkins one so easily from parts4diesels for about $250 in 2018. I am glad I made the decision then to replace it.