[C320-list] Glow Plugs & Keyswitch - Perkins Perama M30 Engine

[Dave Hupe]

I just developed starting problems on my Perkins Perama M30.  I have a strong sense it may be related to my glow plugs.  I contacted the previous owner who confirmed for me that they had previously replaced them due to starting problems and that fixed the issue. The replacement was estimated as being at least 6 or more years ago.  
I found a box for the existing glow plugs.  They are  NGK 6628 (Y-107V).  I read posts elsewhere that talked about "double-coil" type glow plugs that reportedly warm up faster and can run continuously, versus "single-coil" type glow plugs that have pulsed controllers and can burn out if constant power is applied.  I'm guessing the above NGK glow plug is the single-coil type.  However, assuming that is what I have now, they have worked well to date. Current price for these is as low as about $8 each directly from NGK and about $12 from Amazon. 
Does anyone have input about specific glow plugs? 

I'm still confused by when my glow plugs actually work???  I have a 3 position ignition switch (off, on, start)…..I don't think it is original.  Do the glow plugs come on when I switch to "on" and then stay on constantly (since my key switch goes back to the "on" position after I turn to "start" and then release the key)?  Or, do the glow plugs only energize when I turn and hold the key in the "start" position? If so, then I don't get any cylinder pre-warming (unless I follow Warren Updike's tip I found previously about pulling the fuel shutoff knob up and cranking for about 5 seconds to energize the glow plugs and "pre-warm", before pushing the fuel knob in and starting as usual).
Dave Hupe
1994 Cat 320 "Mayan Sun" (#32)
Holland, MI

[Mark Seyler]

I have the three position key switch on the M30 on my #232. I believe the glow plugs are only energized when I turn the key to the "start" position. And the starter motor only cranks if I keep the key in the start position, and push the "start" button at the same time. So I turn the key for about a 5-count to pre-warm, then push the start button, and the Perkins fires up in about 2 seconds of cranking.

Mark Seyler
S/V Reality
Catalina 320, #232
New Orleans, LA

[Jeff Smith]

I have the same set-up with the Perkins M30 and follow the same process, though I usually count to 10. My understanding is also the same ; glow plugs only actuate when the switch is in the Start position.

Jeff
S/V Sailmates, '94 #121

Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.
Original Message
From: Mark Seyler
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2018 6:04 PM
To: C320...@Catalina320.com
Reply To: C320...@Catalina320.com
Subject: Re: [C320-list] Glow Plugs & Keyswitch - Perkins Perama M30 Engine

[Dave Hupe]

Apparently, modifications have been made to my boat by previous owner(s).  I may have had both the key switch and starter pushbutton originally, but now only have the 3 position key switch.  So, my glow plugs will only operate when I turn the key switch to "start" (thus, no pre-warming). 
Warren Updike just privately recommended that I add a pushbutton in addition to my key switch, so that my glow plugs and starter will work as Mark describes.  He indicated I could simply add a pushbutton directly in the wire between the key switch (position #3) and the starter. 
Lacking making this update, the only workaround to my current situation is the tip given by Warren, where I crank for about 5 seconds with the fuel shutoff knob pulled out to "pre-warm" with the glow plugs energized, then push the fuel knob in and hopefully start easily. 

[Dave Hupe]

It appears that I may be missing the starter pushbutton (a previous owner may have thought it was ok/easier to combine the glow plugs operation and starter activation on the #3 key switch position).  However, that prevents pre-warming with that setup, unless I use Warren Updike's trick of first cranking the starter for a while with the fuel knob pulled out (no fuel flow). Warren has suggested that I install/reestablish a starter pushbutton in the wiring between the key switch and the starter to correct this. 
Several owners have suggested that I also look at the glow plug relay (a 1 inch square by about 2 inch long blue "box", located on the rear of the engine, that the wire to the glow plugs lead from). If this relay went bad, this could be the source of my almost instantaneous starting problem. 
Thanks.

[Dave Hupe]

Update ……. Problem resolved … it was the glow plugs (2 of 3 bad) that prevented my engine from starting.   The engine lit up perfectly after I installed them this afternoon.
I also have confirmed that my glow plug relay still continues to feed 12 volts to the plugs even after starting (fed by the "on" position of my 3-position key switch).  This is not good, but apparently still worked a long time (about 8-10 years total) for the previous owner/me until this failure.  I am probably going to follow Warren Updike's suggestions to install a pushbutton that will control the glow plugs (so that they will only energize when I push the button to warm before starting).  Or, I will have the pushbutton control the starter and arrange to have the glow plugs on the 3rd spring-loaded position of the key switch.  I don't think this will be difficult or expensive. 
I got lucky and only needed to pull apart one fuel line coupling (located near the front of the engine on top of the high pressure fuel pump) that completely blocked the forwardmost glow plug.  I was able to bleed it easily when reassembled using the hand operated lift pump and had only minor difficulty getting a good seal (replaced the copper fuel line coupling washers). 
Now.....back to sailing before the end of the season .

[Elizabeth Schwartz]

Ahoy....#245, with westerbeke.....I have had starting issues on and off
since getting this one 5 years ago.....all electric related....weak
connections from wire harness to engine from helm....then solenoid and
10 amp fuse to glow plugs and fuel pump through oil pressure sensor....I
am also thinking about re wiring glow plugs and fuel pump to a dedicated
direct switch at the helm.....most difficult part might be finding space
for more wires in tubes from deck to engine inst. pod.....Joe  

[M Mellon]

A note here I learned recently: For the Westerbeke 30B-3 used in our boat,
LaVida #324, 1996, it appears that the electric fuel pump is interlocked to
the low oil pressure switch. If the LOP switch indicates low oil pressure
(switch contacts open), the fuel pump is turned off. and the engine shuts
down. The same thing happens, however, if there is simply a break in the
wiring to the low oil pressure switch - it appears then to be open - and
also shuts down the engine.

The idea apparently is that if you encounter low oil pressure (due to a loss
of oil for some real reason) then the engine is shut down pretty much
immediately to prevent further engine damage.

Fair winds,

Mike
LaVida
Hull 324, 1996

----- Original Message -----
From: "Elizabeth Schwartz" <schwa...@optimum.net>
To: <C320...@Catalina320.com>
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2018 5:53 AM
Subject: Re: [C320-list] Glow Plugs & Keyswitch - Perkins Perama M30 Engine

[Rick Sulewski]

Mike,
On my Westerbeke powered hull #277 I learned in my second year that a broken spade blade connector on the oil pressure sender switch set off the low oil pressure alarm buzzer while the engine continued to run. To circumvent the alarm until I could secure a new oil sender I simply connected the two oil sender wires to bypass the oil pressure sender. In this instance I learned that it was apparent when the fuel pump continued to run ("click") when the ignition key was turned on while bypassing the oil pressure sender switch. Not a condition to be tolerated for very long for safety reasons because the fuel pump could continue to run or leak while the engine stopped running if the ignition switch was not switched off. I had another instances of a broken oil pressure spade on my 4 year old Westerbeke again due to the rigidity of the oil sending wires until I added a section of softer wire that I coiled to provide some flex as the engine vibrated.

When the engine stopped few years later I was convinced that I was out of fuel while motoring up to a transient dock with just under a quarter tank registering on my fuel gauge. So, after successfully sailing up to that transient dock on the headsail when the wind was blowing off the dock was not enough excitement, I later learned that I had a broken power lead to the fuel pump. I had not really run out of fuel after all. How I learned that fact was interesting because I initially believed that I had run out of fuel and after adding a gallon of fuel, the engine fired right up. But, while I was in the cabin while the engine was running I noted that I could not hear the fuel pump run ("click"). I pulled off the engine cover and then discovered the broken fuel pump power lead had separated from the connector I had installed having replaced the fuel pump a few years earlier. (BTW, with a NAPA generic fuel pump for a Kubota diesel garden tractor that continues to work well to this day.) I repaired that lead and continued on without the need to add more fuel because the fuel pump could draw from the bottom of my quarter filled tank. Lesson learned is that the Westerbeke engine will run even when fuel can gravity feed the fuel system after the fuel pump fails, as long as you have enough fuel in the tank which was about a quarter full according to my fuel gauge.

Why is this important....? Because if you had more than about a quarter tank of fuel when your oil pressure sender wire broke, your engine may have run as long as it was above the gravity feed level because a portion of the fuel tank is higher than the fuel pump and fuel distribution line on your Westerbeke engine as Is the case with my hull # which is close to your hull #. Later hull #s switched to a different power supplier following the Westerbeke run of hulls. If you had added any fuel to your tank thinking that you had run out of fuel, your broken oil sender wire may be a random fail while your fuel pump may have already failed. So, check to learn if you can hear the fuel pump "click" when your engine is running and if you cannot hear the pump run, take the two oil sender wires and link them to temporarily and then turn on the ignition switch without starting the engine because if the fuel pump is working, you should hear the fuel pump clicking. Be certain to also check the power lead to your fuel pump. My OEM fuel pump failed after about 600 hours and after replacing it with a NAPA model, I now carry a spare NAPA pump for less than $30 when a red painted OEM pump was well over $100 about 20 years ago

Do my observation impact your oil sender wire conclusions?

Rick
My-Ria, 95' 320 Hull # 277

[Dave Hupe]

Update #2 ...… I installed a new pushbutton and red indicator lamp today from Catalina Direct https://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm/product/2094_715/engine-panel-push-to-start-or-glow-plug--button.cfm https://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm/product/4812_718/engine-panel-red-indicator-lamp-12-vdc.cfm on my engine panel that now controls the brown/red wire between my glow plug relay and 3-position key switch.  When I turn my key switch to the 1st/on position, I first depress and hold the new pushbutton for about 20 seconds which energizes my glow plugs (the red lamp lights too), then simultaneously also turn the key switch to the 3rd/start position for the starter motor.  When the engine starts, I let go of both the pushbutton and key switch (which springs back to "on").    
Now my glow plugs are only on when I use the pushbutton (rather than staying on constantly as before this modification).  Hopefully now my glow plugs will not burn out quickly which caused my starting problem. 
Thanks all for the help on this issue. 
Dave Hupe
1994 Cat320 (#32)
Holland,, MI

[M Mellon]

HI, Rick. And thanks for the extensive comments. The situation was
actually a little more complicated than I suggested.

A week of so before this engine shutdown incident, the same thing had
happened to me as you indicated. The LOP alarm went off more of less
spontaneously while motoring. I checked the engine and it seemed fine, so
being short of time, I just disconnected the alarm in the cockpit and
continued to finish the trip.

A week later, the shutdown occurred due to the broken lead. I did have over
1/2 a tank of fuel, but I think without the electric fuel pump running, the
engine would start to run, then promptly quit. However, in my case, it was
aggravated by the following. Otherwise, maybe it would have run with only
gravity fuel flow.

When the engine quit, we were in the middle of a busy channel
(Oakland-Alameda Estuary in SF Bay), so we anchored. So time was of the
essence. My first thought was a blocked fuel filter (not really logical in
retrospect, because the engine did not sputter and partially run, it just
quit). In the process of changing the filters, and especially without the
electric fuel pump running, I could not get fuel to the injectors, probably
because there was air in the fuel lines by that time. Despite trying the
bleed the fuel system, it would not run.

Well, it turned out that I had used the little vertical pump on the Racor
fuel filter to try to purge the fuel lines, but I later found the pump shaft
was leaking air after I used it. So it just kept introducing more air. A
good diesel mechanic finally found that problem. By the way, he also
replaced the Westerbeke LOP switch with a Hobbs 76575-4 model, which he says
is more reliable itself and reconfigured the lead connections (also with a
coil shape) to reduce the vibration-induced movement of those leads.

I did check the LOP switch contacts with an ohmmeter (contacts open when
engine not running, closed when engine running with sufficient oil pressure)
and that looked OK. My error was that I did not check the switch lead
continuity. The LOP switch lead on my boat broke in the same place as
yours, inside the spade terminal where it was not apparent.

Thanks for the info on the Kubota fuel pump at NAPA. I'll pay them a visit
and get one.

There are about 700 hours on the engine, and 22 years.

Very helpful discussion. Thanks for taking the time.

Best wishes,

Mike

[Elizabeth Schwartz]

Ahoy...I have installed a bypass wire in event of oil pressure wire
failure......I cut the wire to blower in locker by refridge
compressor....installed an on-off-on switch...one side to blower, the
other to hot lead of fuel pump....ran wire under port side of aft berth,
to back of engine...spliced it to positive wire to fuel pump. If wiring
through oil pressure sender fails....turn on blower switch, move switch
in locker by helm....and good to go.....just check oil level and
pressure......i may add an oil press guage somewhere
sometime....Joe...#245  

> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Sulewski" To: Sent: Saturday,

> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elizabeth Schwartz" To: Sent:

[M Mellon]

Great idea, Joe. Thanks.

Mike

----- Original Message -----

From: "Elizabeth Schwartz" <schwa...@optimum.net>
To: <C320...@Catalina320.com>