[C320-list] Anchor Windlass Capability

[Dennis Harris]

As I understand it, the anchor windlass is not to be used to pull the boat towards the anchor location when taking in the anchor. If the wind or current is high, doing so would put lots of force on the windlass and probably trip it out. But if there isn’t much wind, it would seem that there wouldn’t be much force. The windlass supplied on our boats has a smooth drum and no gypsy for chain, and as I understand it, the chain should not be used on the smooth drum. My guess is that many, like me, have nylon rode with a relatively small amount of chain at the anchor. Taking in the nylon rode when there is no strain on it (because boat is being powered forward) is easy to do by hand and power assist is not needed. Picking up the bitter end with the chain and anchor (assuming we have already broken out the anchor using boat movement instead of anchor windlass pull) can/will be relatively difficult and power assist would be helpful, but the windlass (as delivered on boat) is not setup to handle chain. So, it seems that we have this nice piece of equipment that really isn’t available when there is some heavy lifting to do.
What am I missing?
How do most owners use the windlass?
And, most importantly, what is the line pull, in pounds, that can be successfully applied to the anchor rode, or other line, using the windlass without damaging windlass or tripping it out electrically?
I don’t anchor out often, as you can tell, and when I do, it is in shallow water, so I have done it by hand without the windlass in the past. But as 73 approaches, the idea of picking up a 33 lb. Bruce anchor and 20 ft. of chain seems less and less attractive.
Thanks for you guidance.
Dennis Harris C320 #694

[Gene Helfman]

Thanks for bringing this up. We're in final negotiations on a 1997 320
with "upgraded" ground tackle: 40 lb plow and 50 ft of larger chain than
standard. So we will need to replace the Maxwell 500 with a larger, more
powerful windlass that has both rope and chain capability (granted, as
Dennis noted, we could power up to the chain and get away with a chain
donkey only). Has anyone upgraded to something along these lines?

thanks,

gene

--
Gene Helfman, Professor Emeritus
Odum School of Ecology, University of Georgia
PERMANENT address:
498 Shoreland Dr., Lopez Is., WA 98261
(360) 468-2136
geneh...@gmail.com

"Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day,
Teach a man to fish and he'll deplete the
oceans."

The Book of Bob, Ironies 24:7

[Gary Magnuson]

Hi,
I guess ignorance is bliss, but on my 1995, I have been regularly
raising the anchor rode and chain using the smooth drum, with seemingly
no problems. I did make a anchor splice between rode and the chain to
get rid of the nylon eye and shackle, which makes the drum happy during
the transition. I am controlling the tension on the drum by hand, but
letting the winch do all of the work. Perhaps I will someday need to
replace the drum if the chain destroys the surface. I hope I haven't
made a big mistake.....

Gary
Time A Weigh #205

On 7/12/2012 11:26 AM, Gene Helfman wrote:
> Thanks for bringing this up. We're in final negotiations on a 1997 320
> with "upgraded" ground tackle: 40 lb plow and 50 ft of larger chain than
> standard. So we will need to replace the Maxwell 500 with a larger, more
> powerful windlass that has both rope and chain capability (granted, as
> Dennis noted, we could power up to the chain and get away with a chain
> donkey only). Has anyone upgraded to something along these lines?
>
> thanks,
>
> gene
>
> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 8:50 AM, Dennis Harris <dhar...@suddenlink.net>wrote:
>
>> As I understand it, the anchor windlass is not to be used to pull the boat
>> towards the anchor location when taking in the anchor. If the wind or
>> current is high, doing so would put lots of force on the windlass and

>> probably trip it out. But if there isn�t much wind, it would seem that
>> there wouldn�t be much force. The windlass supplied on our boats has a

>> smooth drum and no gypsy for chain, and as I understand it, the chain
>> should not be used on the smooth drum. My guess is that many, like me,
>> have nylon rode with a relatively small amount of chain at the anchor.
>> Taking in the nylon rode when there is no strain on it (because boat is
>> being powered forward) is easy to do by hand and power assist is not
>> needed. Picking up the bitter end with the chain and anchor (assuming we
>> have already broken out the anchor using boat movement instead of anchor
>> windlass pull) can/will be relatively difficult and power assist would be
>> helpful, but the windlass (as delivered on boat) is not setup to handle
>> chain. So, it seems that we have this nice piece of equipment that really

>> isn�t available when there is some heavy lifting to do.

>> What am I missing?
>> How do most owners use the windlass?
>> And, most importantly, what is the line pull, in pounds, that can be
>> successfully applied to the anchor rode, or other line, using the windlass
>> without damaging windlass or tripping it out electrically?

>> I don�t anchor out often, as you can tell, and when I do, it is in shallow

[Jerry Mickelson]

A Maxwell Rep. advised me that using a rode with both rope and chain will not damage the drum! The worst that might happen is marring the plating which he said is no big deal. It has worked fine for me with a 35lb plow anchor and 1/4" chain.
Jerry
#118

[Dick Walker]

I added the chain drum and it works great. As the rode is pulled up I move it in to the chain drum as the chain arrives. About $ 300 and well worth it When I ordered the boat I asked for the chain to be added but Catalina declined.

Cheers

Dick Walker

[jpm...@aol.com]

Over the years and on several boats we have regularly used chain on a smooth drum . We would put some gaffers tape over the drum to keep it from slipping. JOHN

[JJ Morrison]

A 40lb anchor and 50ft of chain (5/16"?) sounds like overkill and a lot of work to me; I have a 15KG Bruce and 1/4" chain rode and the Maxwell 500 was upgraded with a gypsy which I understand Maxwell no longer supplies. We anchor out a lot and this combination works very well for the 320 and we have never dragged the anchor in some pretty stiff breezes. I think that the 1/4" chain would work OK on the Maxwell rode drum but have never tried it. If I were doing it again I'd get a new windlass as the new ones draw considerably less power and with remote control are safer to operate.
Cheers
JohnM
1999 #574


> To: C320...@Catalina320.com
> From: jpm...@aol.com
> Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 13:21:04 -0400

[Dick Walker]

I contacted the below and they indicated that they no longer make the kit.



The do offer a VW500 but that would mean a whole new windless.



Maxwell America, LLC
7251 National Drive
Parkway Industrial Center
Hanover, Maryland 21076
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

Phone: +1 714 689 2900
Fax: +1 714 689 2910
Email: salesa...@maxwellmarine.com





Dick Walker

WindWalkerII #687

619.435.8986







From: Dick Walker [mailto:dickw...@att.net]
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2012 10:40 AM
To: 'Tony Murphy, MS DABR'
Subject: RE: [C320-list] Anchor Windlass Capability



It is a Maxwell P71379 GYPSY Conversion kit for the VC500 .



Not hard to install. You take the VC500 out thru the V birth.



If you further question please call.





Cheers





Dick Walker

WindWalkerII #687

619.435.8986

From: Tony Murphy, MS DABR [mailto:to...@midwestphysics.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2012 10:22 AM
To: Dick Walker
Subject: Re: [C320-list] Anchor Windlass Capability

Dick,

Do you have a part # or link that might help me order this upgrade for my
boat. Did a quick online search, but can't seem to find an add-on drum.

Is this something that can be added after the windlass is already installed?

Tony Murphy
Bella Sol #886

[Chris Burti]

I understand the 'recommendations' that we were given and
recommendations should be followed.

That said, I let the windlass do what it will as far as pulling in the
anchor and breaking it loose and when the wind is too high and it
won't...I use the motor.

Next time you replace a halyard, secure one end of the old one to the
anchor shackle and the other end to the rope rode with a rolling
hitch. When you are bringing in the anchor and you come to the knot,
slip the halyard over the drum, use it to bring up the anchor and
bring the chain in by hand...a lot quieter than running the chain over
the drum.

--
Chris Burti
Farmville, NC

[Utility Email]

My 2007 C320 MK II has a chain gypsy as part of the windlass. We anchor out all the time and the windlass works great. No tripping breakers. Two winters ago I installed a seawater washdown pump under the head sink with a quick disconnect outlet in the anchor locker. I connected the inlet to the head sink drain line so I can run seawater (or even freshwater from the sink) through the washdown pump to the anchor locker on the bow of the boat. Works great for cleaning the anchor and rode and also washing down the deck while at anchor. We have 50 feet of chain and 250 feet of nylon rope for our anchor rode.

Dave Swanson
S/V Emily Ann
2007 C320 MK II, No. 1107
Mukilteo, WA

[Dennis Harris]

Thanks everyone for your responses. The Maxwell website lists the pulling
capability of the VC-500 at 660 lbs. I found a couple of websites wherein
the authors presented extensive studies of wind force on anchored boats.
ABYC also has formulas for calculating the wind force on anchored boats.
ABYC calculations suggest for a sailboat the size of a C320, the winds, to
reach the 660 lbs. pull on the anchor rode, would be about 27kts. Both of
the studies said that ABYC formulas were very conservative, on the order of
a safety factor of 3 in normal conditions. However, when waves were over 3
ft., then additional dynamic forces come into play, and at that point, the
ABYC formula predicted a something less than the real formulas. Current was
not a significant issue, and even a 6 kt. current was only equivalent to a
15 kt. wind.

Since I most often single hand, or have on board persons who are not well
versed in boat handling, it is difficult/risky to attempt to motor forward
while I am at the bow taking in the anchor. Based on all the information
that has been provided, I plan to start using the anchor windlass to get the
anchor and rode on board without trying to motor forward...just have the
engine idling out of gear, so we ready to go when the anchor is up. I
shouldn't be tripping breakers under those conditions. I'm not sure why the
owners manuals say to move the boat forward with the engine (easy to do with
two experienced persons however). The chain and nylon of my rodes are
spliced, so I think I will let the windlass lift the chain and anchor even
though I don't have a chain gypsy. Again, thanks.

-----Original Message-----
From: Utility Email
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2012 2:10 AM
To: C320...@Catalina320.com
Subject: Re: [C320-list] Anchor Windlass Capability

My 2007 C320 MK II has a chain gypsy as part of the windlass. We anchor out
all the time and the windlass works great. No tripping breakers. Two
winters ago I installed a seawater washdown pump under the head sink with a
quick disconnect outlet in the anchor locker. I connected the inlet to the
head sink drain line so I can run seawater (or even freshwater from the
sink) through the washdown pump to the anchor locker on the bow of the boat.
Works great for cleaning the anchor and rode and also washing down the deck
while at anchor. We have 50 feet of chain and 250 feet of nylon rope for
our anchor rode.

Dave Swanson
S/V Emily Ann
2007 C320 MK II, No. 1107
Mukilteo, WA

On Jul 12, 2012, at 8:50 AM, Dennis Harris wrote:

> As I understand it, the anchor windlass is not to be used to pull the boat
> towards the anchor location when taking in the anchor. If the wind or
> current is high, doing so would put lots of force on the windlass and

> probably trip it out. But if there isn�t much wind, it would seem that
> there wouldn�t be much force. The windlass supplied on our boats has a

> smooth drum and no gypsy for chain, and as I understand it, the chain
> should not be used on the smooth drum. My guess is that many, like me,
> have nylon rode with a relatively small amount of chain at the anchor.
> Taking in the nylon rode when there is no strain on it (because boat is
> being powered forward) is easy to do by hand and power assist is not
> needed. Picking up the bitter end with the chain and anchor (assuming we
> have already broken out the anchor using boat movement instead of anchor
> windlass pull) can/will be relatively difficult and power assist would be
> helpful, but the windlass (as delivered on boat) is not setup to handle
> chain. So, it seems that we have this nice piece of equipment that really

> isn�t available when there is some heavy lifting to do.

> What am I missing?
> How do most owners use the windlass?
> And, most importantly, what is the line pull, in pounds, that can be
> successfully applied to the anchor rode, or other line, using the windlass
> without damaging windlass or tripping it out electrically?

> I don�t anchor out often, as you can tell, and when I do, it is in shallow

[jim brown]

Be very careful not to get an over ride if you are using the chain on the drum (difficult to do but not impossible as I found out on a charter boat). With rope it's bad enough but with chain it can be a real problem (especially with no reverse of free fall on the windless.

Jim Brown

________________________________
From: Dennis Harris <dhar...@suddenlink.net>
To: C320...@Catalina320.com
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2012 9:56 AM

Subject: Re: [C320-list] Anchor Windlass Capability

Thanks everyone for your responses.  The Maxwell website lists the pulling capability of the VC-500 at 660 lbs.  I found a couple of websites wherein the authors presented extensive studies of wind force on anchored boats. ABYC also has formulas for calculating the wind force on anchored boats. ABYC calculations suggest for a sailboat the size of a C320, the winds, to reach the 660 lbs. pull on the anchor rode, would be about 27kts.  Both of the studies said that ABYC formulas were very conservative, on the order of a safety factor of 3 in normal conditions.  However, when waves were over 3 ft., then additional dynamic forces come into play, and at that point, the ABYC formula predicted a something less than the real formulas.  Current was not a significant issue, and even a 6 kt. current was only equivalent to a 15 kt. wind.

Since I most often single hand, or have on board persons who are not well versed in boat handling, it is difficult/risky to attempt to motor forward while I am at the bow taking in the anchor.  Based on all the information that has been provided, I plan to start using the anchor windlass to get the anchor and rode on board without trying to motor forward...just have the engine idling out of gear, so we ready to go when the anchor is up.  I shouldn't be tripping breakers under those conditions.  I'm not sure why the owners manuals say to move the boat forward with the engine (easy to do with two experienced persons however).  The chain and nylon of my rodes are spliced, so I think I will let the windlass lift the chain and anchor even though I don't have a chain gypsy. Again, thanks.

-----Original Message----- From: Utility Email
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2012 2:10 AM
To: C320...@Catalina320.com
Subject: Re: [C320-list] Anchor Windlass Capability

My 2007 C320 MK II has a chain gypsy as part of the windlass.  We anchor out all the time and the windlass works great.  No tripping breakers.  Two winters ago I installed a seawater washdown pump under the head sink with a quick disconnect outlet in the anchor locker.  I connected the inlet to the head sink drain line so I can run seawater (or even freshwater from the sink) through the washdown pump to the anchor locker on the bow of the boat. Works great for cleaning the anchor and rode and also washing down the deck while at anchor.  We have 50 feet of chain and 250 feet of nylon rope for our anchor rode.

Dave Swanson
S/V Emily Ann
2007 C320 MK II, No. 1107
Mukilteo, WA

On Jul 12, 2012, at 8:50 AM, Dennis Harris wrote:

> As I understand it, the anchor windlass is not to be used to pull the boat towards the anchor location when taking in the anchor.  If the wind or current is high, doing so would put lots of force on the windlass and probably trip it out.  But if there isn’t much wind, it would seem that there wouldn’t be much force.  The windlass supplied on our boats has a smooth drum and no gypsy for chain, and as I understand it, the chain should not be used on the smooth drum.  My guess is that many, like me, have nylon rode with a relatively small amount of chain at the anchor. Taking in the nylon rode when there is no strain on it (because boat is being powered forward) is easy to do by hand and power assist is not needed.  Picking up the bitter end with the chain and anchor (assuming we have already broken out the anchor using boat movement instead of anchor windlass pull) can/will be relatively difficult and power assist would be helpful, but the
windlass (as delivered on boat) is not setup to handle chain.  So, it seems that we have this nice piece of equipment that really isn’t available when there is some heavy lifting to do.

> What am I missing?
> How do most owners use the windlass?
> And, most importantly, what is the line pull, in pounds, that can be successfully applied to the anchor rode, or other line, using the windlass without damaging windlass or tripping it out electrically?

> I don’t anchor out often, as you can tell, and when I do, it is in shallow water, so I have done it by hand without the windlass in the past.  But as 73 approaches, the idea of picking up a 33 lb. Bruce anchor and 20 ft. of chain seems less and less attractive.

[Gene Helfman]

Chris: we like the idea of a backup, non-stretch line running the length of
the chain but see possible entanglement/fouling issues. Do you thread the
line through an occasional chain link or tie the line to the chain at a
couple of points so it doesn't develop slack?

thanks,

gene (hopefully soon-to-be-owner of Satori, #398, as soon as a paid-off
loan gets verified through the Coast Guard so boat can be re-documented)

[Chris Burti]

If light winds are forecast, I don't mess with it. I just bring in the
chain by hand (I only have 25'). If the hook is stuck, I bend the
chain on the cleat and use the engine to break it out.

If heavier winds, I deploy with the anchor. I simply tie a bowline
through the shackle...and let it out with the chain. When I get to
the rope rode, I either tie a rolling hitch to the rode or a bowline
in that shackle there as I have no splice.

When I bring in the rode, I stop when the chain comes aboard, untie
the halyard, put it on the drum and release the rode.

It is a one person job and much easier on my soul than winding the
chain on the drum.

As noted, over-rides are a b.....ummer...

I installed a washdown also...pics in mainsheet.

[Colin Evans]

Gary,
Did you use the splice which connects the rope to the end link of the chain.
Most websites I`ve looked at do this. My concern would be wear to the rope.
I`ve found a site that shows an elongated splice along the chain for 12 - 14
inches. Have a look at
http://johndanicic.com/sailing%20pages/GOB%20articles/JF07_Splicing.pdf
and scroll down to the third page.
I like the idea of the smooth transition between rope and chain.
*************************
Regards
Colin Evans
Watermark #774
Lake Macquarie, Australia

-----Original Message-----
From: c320-lis...@lists.catalina320.com
[mailto:c320-lis...@lists.catalina320.com] On Behalf Of Gary Magnuson
Sent: Friday, 13 July 2012 2:48 AM
To: C320...@Catalina320.com
Subject: Re: [C320-list] Anchor Windlass Capability

>> probably trip it out. But if there isn't much wind, it would seem that
>> there wouldn't be much force. The windlass supplied on our boats has a

>> smooth drum and no gypsy for chain, and as I understand it, the chain
>> should not be used on the smooth drum. My guess is that many, like me,
>> have nylon rode with a relatively small amount of chain at the anchor.
>> Taking in the nylon rode when there is no strain on it (because boat is
>> being powered forward) is easy to do by hand and power assist is not
>> needed. Picking up the bitter end with the chain and anchor (assuming we
>> have already broken out the anchor using boat movement instead of anchor
>> windlass pull) can/will be relatively difficult and power assist would be
>> helpful, but the windlass (as delivered on boat) is not setup to handle
>> chain. So, it seems that we have this nice piece of equipment that
really

>> isn't available when there is some heavy lifting to do.

>> What am I missing?
>> How do most owners use the windlass?
>> And, most importantly, what is the line pull, in pounds, that can be
>> successfully applied to the anchor rode, or other line, using the
windlass
>> without damaging windlass or tripping it out electrically?

>> I don't anchor out often, as you can tell, and when I do, it is in

[Warren Updike]

Here is an approach that has worked for me. Once you are pulled up short on
the anchor, use the windlass to take a strain on the rode, enough to pull
the bow down slightly. Then, wait. The other dynamic forces at play will
s-l-o-w-l-y pull the anchor out of the mud or sand. If not, further
powering with the windlass may not help. In that case, cleat the rode, go
aft and drive over it.

> windlass and probably trip it out. But if there isn't much wind, it
> would seem that there wouldn't be much force. The windlass supplied

> on our boats has a smooth drum and no gypsy for chain, and as I
> understand it, the chain should not be used on the smooth drum. My
> guess is that many, like me, have nylon rode with a relatively small
amount of chain at the anchor.
> Taking in the nylon rode when there is no strain on it (because boat
> is being powered forward) is easy to do by hand and power assist is
> not needed. Picking up the bitter end with the chain and anchor
> (assuming we have already broken out the anchor using boat movement
> instead of anchor windlass pull) can/will be relatively difficult and
> power assist would be helpful, but the windlass (as delivered on boat)
> is not setup to handle chain. So, it seems that we have this nice

> piece of equipment that really isn't available when there is some heavy

lifting to do.
> What am I missing?
> How do most owners use the windlass?
> And, most importantly, what is the line pull, in pounds, that can be
> successfully applied to the anchor rode, or other line, using the
> windlass without damaging windlass or tripping it out electrically?

> I don't anchor out often, as you can tell, and when I do, it is in