[C320-list] fin vs. wing keel

[Gene Helfman]

Dear all: In our ongoing search for a 320 (ca. 2000 +/-), we've run into a
mixture of opinions on the qualities of the shallow vs. deep draft boats.
We have a harbor and hoist situation in our home port that makes 6 ft draft
problematic but not impossible. Would anyone like to chime in on the costs
and benefits of the wing keel boats (of which fewer were produced and are
harder to find) vs. the deeper-draft fin keel boats? We intend to cruise
not race so faster turning isn't much of an issue.

thanks,
gene
--
Gene Helfman, Professor Emeritus
Odum School of Ecology, University of Georgia
PERMANENT address:
498 Shoreland Dr., Lopez Is., WA 98261
(360) 468-2136
geneh...@gmail.com

"Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day,
Teach a man to fish and he'll deplete the
oceans."

The Book of Bob, Ironies 24:7

[Chris Burti]

The simplest rule of thumb is for East Coast cruising...get a wing
keel...West Coast, a fin is fine.

There is simply too much thin water South of Norfolk not to take
advantage of the extra foot of clearance..

--
Chris Burti
Farmville, NC

[Diane Fowler]

Any FL or Bahamas cruising will appreciate the wing keel of 4'4". Check website for model #s: as many owners & yacht brokers are adv 1996-2001 with 4'4" and they ate WRONG! Those wings draw 4'10". HUGE difference in FL!! We just bought a 2003 & had her trucked to FL to get shallow draft. Duane & Ray ,proud owners of #948

Sent from my iPhone

[Donald Lawson]

Gene
What Chris said is pretty much correct for Southern Cal. Deep water everywhere and besides, a wing keel acts as a brake in any following sea which we have plenty of.
Might not be an issue in Puget Sound.
Don #1005

[BAdam...@aol.com]

If a 6' draft is a problem, get the wing...especially if racing is not an
issue.

Bert
At Ease
#442


In a message dated 10/28/2011 11:59:00 A.M. Central Daylight Time,

[JJ Morrison]

We are in Lake Ontario around the Thousand Islands and even 3 inches more or less keel can be a big issue! To reiterate what's already been said if your current , and potential, cruising grounds have lots of water go for the fin keel. Additionally the fin will not scoop up weeds like the wing tends to do, and if you do happen to get "grounded" the fin is less of a problem to get off.
Having said that we went for the shoal draft "wing" as there are just too many gunk holes around this area which would be totally off limits to a 6' draft boat. We are cruisers and the wing keel 320 does a totally satisfactory job for us.
cheers
JohnM
1999#574

[Pat Ireland]

Gene

What they all said, I agree. Suggest you plan a trip and see how much
adjustment you would need to make to your ideal track if you have a 6'-6"
draft. If you can deal with that compromise, get the Fin. If not, get
the 4'-10" wing.

There is a wing keel 320 in charter there in the PNW. Talk to them. I bet
they have stories.

Good luck with your search. Pat, 801, Cherie

[David Swanson]

We currently have the fin keel C320.

Before our C320, we had a wing keel Hunter 30. We sailed our H30 throughout Puget Sound, the Sand Juan and Canadian Gulf Islands and Desolation Sound. It had a 4-'3" draft. We never really needed it as many of the anchorages that we used had plenty of water. Even with a 12+ foot tidal range, if a gunkholes was that shallow at low tide, it wasn't worth the hassle considering all of other choices for deeper water anchorage.

After we purchased our C320 several years ago, we sailed our C320 out of San Diego for 2 years and now sail her in the PNW. Shallow keel not needed for SoCal. It is not needed in the Puget Sound either. Our fin keel C320 points much better compared to our wing keel H30.

I like the summary about getting a deep draft fin keel for the west coast and a wing keel for the east coast where there are shallower water cruising grounds like the Chesapeake.

For my money, it is a fin keel. We love our C320 and her fin keel.

Dave

David Swanson
S/V Emily Ann
2007 C320 MK II, No. 1107
Mukilteo, WA

David Swanson
kswan...@comcast.net

[Brad Kuether]

If you can sail comfortably in your waters without worrying about going
aground get the fin. The performace difference is remarkable. But if you
have any doubt on depth, you open up a LOT of options with the wing. And to
be honest, I move along OK. (folding prop really helps here...) Pointing is
a different matter. I find with the 150 up front and sheeted in tight, I do
better, but nothing great.

My prior C&C had a 5'4" fin, and that was boarderline. I did OK in the
upper Chesapeake. Some anchorages were out of scope.

6 feet plus under a Catalina 320? No way. Not here.

-Brad, Mary, Monica, and Jarod
"Independence"
2004 Catalina 320 Hull 1006
Middle River, MD

PS - First snowfall of the season has begun in earnest. Its supposed to be
bright and sunny with highs still in the low 60s!!!!!!

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Burti" <clb...@gmail.com>
To: <C320...@catalina320.com>
Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 1:15 PM
Subject: Re: [C320-list] fin vs. wing keel

[Flyingmonkey]

I'd like to hear from those who have actually experienced a grounding with the wing keel. This is my first wing keel vessel and I'd like to know what to expect when it happens. I'm a realist when it comes to these things. There are those who have run aground and those who have not "yet" run aground.

Thanks,
Lou Hodac
S/V Blue Moon
Hull#702

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 29, 2011, at 11:00 AM, Andrew Santangelo <andrew_s...@mac.com> wrote:

> Hello All,
>
> I would also add the fin keel works for most of the great lakes. We had some close calls in the Kalamazoo River in Saugatuck off Lake Michigan, otherwise the fin keel also works great in this region.
>
> The big issue is if you plan to race your vessel at all and want a chance to place you really need to go to the fin keel - the pointing ability and carrying less mass is a huge difference. Now I cruised extensively all over the great lakes before racing and I still cruise quite a bit and I have to say pointing better towards my destination and going a tad faster to beat some coming weather is an added boost I love. I have also see a few wing keels run aground. It is not pretty getting off vs. a fin keel. When sailing in shallow water, I really try to avoid cutting it close regardless of fin or wing keel. Of course that is what GPS, chart plotters and tide charts are for.
>
> Regarding west coast sailing since I did the massive move/shipping of Dawn Treader to SFO - lots of wind, you fly with the tides (weather you want to or not), and a fin keel is totally fine.
>
> Best Regards,
> Andrew
>
> C320
> "Dawn Treader"
> #333
> San Francisco

[BAdam...@aol.com]

I've been aground once in my C320. The boat was in forward, at an idle
with the sails down. Put it in reverse immediately and powered off...bottom
was hard.

Bert
At Ease
#442


In a message dated 10/29/2011 10:15:38 A.M. Central Daylight Time,

[Jeff Hare]

We've grounded our wing keel twice. First time was in muddy sand while waiting to be shown to our mooring. Tide fell enough and trapped us on a shallow flat near low tide. The boat just sat there upright for an hour or two until the tide floated us off again. We dropped the dinghy, had fun and even cleaned the waterline scum. No big deal. Pretty sure a fin would has laid over in this case and been more trouble, but each circumstance is different and you win some and lose some.

Second time we barreled into a little sand shoal that built up following some weather. Stopped us really fast. We went into reverse and powered off the way we came in. No problem.

Due to the slightly swept back wing, we don't seem to snag stuff on it for long anymore than a deep fin would. But if you sail in kelp or other really long weeds you would get used to backing up or heeling to clear it with either keel type. For the record we have never had to clear our wing keel in 10 years on the east coast US. The Propeller? Yes once but since it was a folding one no diving was necessary.

Jeff

[Uhlman]

Lou
We have had wing keel gounding experiences.  First one was with our Catalina 28.later with our 320!

Both were  what i wouid call light groundings in mud bottom but both resulted in a tow.   one tow was from a friend. The other reguired a call and a real tow.
Bob uhlman
Whisper, 1158

Sent from my Samsung Epic™ 4G Touch

[Irving Grunes]

We have had any number of groundings,but never required a tow.

Remember that the most powerful mover for you boat are your sails. Use them
for healing and just pulling.
Irv Grunes
2001 #851

[Allan S. Field]

It really depends what the bottom is and how hard you go in. With 20 knots
of wind on the stern and motoring at 6 knots, we went into mud. The wing in
this case acts like a sucking anchor; the boat was stuck until we got a tow.
Even tried kedging with an anchor and the boat never budged. And you really
need to be careful trying to power off as all the muck the prop stirs up
comes up through the engine seawater intake and can foul things from there.
We have gone aground several other times but in soft stuff at lower speeds
and were able to get off, once with putting 6 of us leaning as far out as we
could to port to pop one side of the wing out of the mud. For the
Chesapeake Bay, I think that a wing is the way to go, try to be careful, and
know you may need help if you do go in. A fin on the Bay, at a 6-foot
draft, would further limit where we could get into. On my previous boat, I
had a 4-foot draft with a fin and was able to use a spinnaker pole to push
off; there is no way I could do that with this heavier boat with a wing
keel.

And now the fun starts - why does Allan go aground so much? Because he
sails a lot?!

Hope this helps.

Allan S. Field
Sea Shadow - #808
Columbia, MD

[Flyingmonkey]

I concur with Allan. If you have not run aground then you need to sail more and explore new areas. I have not yet sailed my 320 enough, but this my first season with her. ;-)

Lou Hodac
S/V Blue Moon
Hull #702

Sent from my iPhone

[wfl...@aim.com]

I know the question was about experiences grounding with a wing keel but thought I'd throw in experiences with my fin keel anyway. I sail an inland lake and until this year, I'd never grounded. This year It happened twice, once while informally racing a friend with a wing (not a 320) and I followed him around a point, he made it I didn't. Winds were probably 15 to 20 and I was moving very well until the stern lifted up in the air and the boat stopped. I immediately dumped the sails, started the engine and was able to back out of the slot I'd cut in the mud ( I also passed my friend bit it took longer). The second time was apparently sailing into a submerged tree and was able to keep sailing through it into deeper water. Either way, I didn't like it.

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: Allan S. Field <allan...@verizon.net>
To: C320-List <C320...@Catalina320.com>
Sent: Sat, Oct 29, 2011 1:14 pm
Subject: Re: [C320-list] fin vs. wing keel

keel.

sails a lot?!

Hope this helps.

Allan S. Field

Sea Shadow - #808

Columbia, MD

-----Original Message-----

From: c320-lis...@lists.catalina320.com

To: C320...@Catalina320.com

Subject: Re: [C320-list] fin vs. wing keel

[Jon Vez]

Jeff,

Was the first instance the one in the Haraseeket in Maine by any chance :)

Regards,

Jon

[Jeff Hare]

<grin> ayuh.

[Warren Updike]

Our 1994 320 pubs list the wing keel as 4'-3, an absolute necessity on the
Chesapeake. When we were shopping 7 years ago, there was a 320 in Annapolis
with a fin keel. It was originally from CA. The owner had it shipped to
the Chesapeake on a job change. He had trouble selling it because of the
fin keel.
We have gone aground numerous times; but, always under power in known
shallow waters. Only once did we call for a tow, and then we didn't need it
but the weather was deteriorating and our engine was having an overheating
problem.
My experience is that when grounding, a fast shift to reverse and hard power
to back out the way we came in works best. Fortunately, 99% of the time on
the Chesapeake the bottom is soft mud or a harder sand. Only once did we
get hung on a falling tide with rock on the bottom. That time, the abrasion
on the rocks opened the bottom of our keel. Forget healing and kedging. If
you're stuck, wait for the tide or take a tow.
Be aware of the salvage issue. If a tower is unable to pull you off, you may
get into a salvage issue. If you give the permission, the salvager may have
a claim on the value of your boat. It's like a lean on your home. For that
reason, I carry onboard a copy of a standard short form salvage agreement I
got from BoatUS. Forewarned is forearmed.

Warren & Pattie Updike
1994 C320 #62 "Warr De Mar"

[Gary Magnuson]

Dear Gene,
Having gone through the same thought process, I think the issue depends
on the conditions you face where you plan to sail, On Lake Superior, in
the Apostle Islands, our bottom is sand and rock, with deep safe water
within easy reach of islands shore. The fin vs Wing is often a
discussion at 5:00 on the dock boxes, and it is generally accepted that
when you go aground on a sand bar, the fin keel will allow a kedge off
more readily than wing. The wing will encourage you to get in closer
to shore before dropping the hook for the night, but also may allow a
harder grounding problem to solve. If you have a lot of shallow water
in your area where depth is a constant issue, the wing is the way to
go. I bought the fin and have been extremely happy on my 1995 320.
While on her delivery trip from Whitehall Michigan to Bayfield, WI in
2007, the Lakes were low, and there were two harbors that we had to
bypass because of draft, and a couple of places where the fuel pump hose
was extended full length, due to depth issues, but I am still happy with
my choice of the fin Keel. Each October, during the Venetian parade, it
is fun to hear the crowd cheer, when I spin her 360 in her own length.
We also had a bumpy crossing to Grand Marais, MN this summer with 25 to
35 knot's of wind and following seas on the port quarter. I realized
one disadvantage of the very quick response of a fin keel, as I fought
the helm trying to hold a steady course, but I don't know if the wing
configuration would have tracked better or the same. I think the full
keel boats track straighter. I think your best advice is to search the
local knowledge, and sift it for the issues you consider critical.

Good luck,
Gary
320#205
Time A Weigh

[Brian Carol Mclamb]

This is my second Catalina with a wing keel, and I love it. My recommendation is to consider the intended cruising area you intend to enjoy. I am in NC on the Pamlico Sound, and Neuse River where depth is a concern. I also use it to go to Cape Lookout so some ocean sailing is also done. The only time I notice a real need for deep fin keel is when winds climb in to the 20+ knots of wind when you are trying to hold a compass course. This is infrequent so I still love the wing keel. Brian from Serenity # 1075.

Sent from my iPad

[Gene Helfman]

Many thanks to all of you for your input on fin vs. wing keels. Our first
impression is people love their 320s, regardless. This affirms our
interest in the design. Second, we have rethought our decision with more
regard to where we go and what is required. Shallower draft has been an
issue primarily during haulout, something we should be able to work around.
Otherwise, our cruising here in the PNW is to destinations with lots of
water. Our one grounding (so far) involved anchoring and miscalculating
water depth under our 4'10" keel at low tide (ok, and drifting over a rock
as tide went out), something that would have put us on the bottom with even
less draft.
Bottom line (forgive the pun): we are broadening our search to include
fin keel models, which expands the market considerably.

[Rick Evans]

Just going to quickly chime in.

I have one of the few 6'3" Fin keels on the East coast especially in the
western LI sound.

I have raced against the Wing keel. My boat points about 5 to 10 degrees
higher and is much faster up wind. Down wind the Wing Keel Often caught me,
I believe due to less wetted area and a slight weight advantage.

As anything in any boat there are pros and cons weigh them and you have
your answer.

I bought my wing for a few reasons:

1. I got it way under market value I believe a major factor was because
the Fin keel is less desirable in my area
2. I race my boat more than I cruise and she is a rocket ship up wind. I
am still playing with every single trick to get her to move down wind.
3. Racing was more important than cruising.

In short if I had no intention of racing I would probably have gone with a
wing keel.

Rick
724

--
*Rick Evans | IM: XNTRK55 | Cell 646.431.7562 *

[Rick Evans]

Also meant to say I bought my FIN KEEL for a few reasons LOL

On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 3:48 PM, Rick Evans <ericstill...@gmail.com>wrote:

> Yep I knew they were lighter.
>
> I purchased the tackle to fit a backstay adjuster not hydralic and the
> prop is on my list although I am unsure if it is beneficial I think my
> rating is penalized 3 seconds for that.
>
> Question on downwind. Did you lossen the headstay a lot to expand the gap
> when you move the mast forward?
>
> Thanks
> Rick
> 724
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 2:17 PM, Andrew Santangelo <
> andrew_s...@mac.com> wrote:
>
>> Rick,
>>
>> The fin keel boats are actually lighter than the wing keel version by
>> about 400 lbs. For our downwind performance we went with a hydraulic
>> backstay - this helped greatly.
>>
>> Of course don't forget a folding prop. We use an Autoprop.

>>
>> Best Regards,
>> Andrew
>>
>>
>> C320
>> "Dawn Treader"
>> #333
>> San Francisco
>>
>>

>> On Nov 7, 2011, at 2:11 PM, Rick Evans wrote:
>>
>> > Just going to quickly chime in.
>> >
>> > I have one of the few 6'3" Fin keels on the East coast especially in the
>> > western LI sound.
>> >
>> > I have raced against the Wing keel. My boat points about 5 to 10 degrees
>> > higher and is much faster up wind. Down wind the Wing Keel Often caught
>> me,
>> > I believe due to less wetted area and a slight weight advantage.
>> >
>> > As anything in any boat there are pros and cons weigh them and you have
>> > your answer.
>> >
>> > I bought my wing for a few reasons:
>> >
>> > 1. I got it way under market value I believe a major factor was
>> because
>> > the Fin keel is less desirable in my area
>> > 2. I race my boat more than I cruise and she is a rocket ship up
>> wind. I
>> > am still playing with every single trick to get her to move down wind.
>> > 3. Racing was more important than cruising.
>> >
>> > In short if I had no intention of racing I would probably have gone
>> with a
>> > wing keel.
>> >
>> > Rick
>> > 724
>>
>>
>
>

[Rick Evans]

Yep I knew they were lighter.

I purchased the tackle to fit a backstay adjuster not hydralic and the prop
is on my list although I am unsure if it is beneficial I think my rating is
penalized 3 seconds for that.

Question on downwind. Did you lossen the headstay a lot to expand the gap
when you move the mast forward?

Thanks
Rick
724

On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 2:17 PM, Andrew Santangelo <andrew_s...@mac.com
> wrote:

> Rick,
>
> The fin keel boats are actually lighter than the wing keel version by
> about 400 lbs. For our downwind performance we went with a hydraulic
> backstay - this helped greatly.
>
> Of course don't forget a folding prop. We use an Autoprop.
>
> Best Regards,
> Andrew
>
>
> C320
> "Dawn Treader"
> #333
> San Francisco
>
>
> On Nov 7, 2011, at 2:11 PM, Rick Evans wrote:
>

> > Just going to quickly chime in.
> >
> > I have one of the few 6'3" Fin keels on the East coast especially in the
> > western LI sound.
> >
> > I have raced against the Wing keel. My boat points about 5 to 10 degrees
> > higher and is much faster up wind. Down wind the Wing Keel Often caught
> me,
> > I believe due to less wetted area and a slight weight advantage.
> >
> > As anything in any boat there are pros and cons weigh them and you have
> > your answer.
> >
> > I bought my wing for a few reasons:
> >
> > 1. I got it way under market value I believe a major factor was because
> > the Fin keel is less desirable in my area
> > 2. I race my boat more than I cruise and she is a rocket ship up wind.
> I
> > am still playing with every single trick to get her to move down wind.
> > 3. Racing was more important than cruising.
> >
> > In short if I had no intention of racing I would probably have gone with
> a
> > wing keel.
> >
> > Rick
> > 724
>
>

[pat reynolds]

if you are getting 3 seconds credit for a fixed prop, the gain with a folding prop well compensates for that 3 seconds.

________________________________
From: Rick Evans <ericstill...@gmail.com>
To: C320...@catalina320.com
Sent: Monday, November 7, 2011 2:48 PM

Subject: Re: [C320-list] fin vs. wing keel

Yep I knew they were lighter.

[pat reynolds]

Phrf base handicap assumes a folding prop.  I always hoped to get credit for a wing keel but I also have a 156 base

with Lake Michigan Phrf

________________________________
From: Andrew Santangelo <andrew_s...@mac.com>
To: C320...@Catalina320.com
Sent: Monday, November 7, 2011 5:35 PM

Subject: Re: [C320-list] fin vs. wing keel

Believe it or not I reported my changes to PHRF (folding prop and change to the fin keel) and I got no time hit!  If anything I was punished for doing nothing before hand.  My Handicap is 156.

Best Regards,
Andrew

C320
"Dawn Treader"
#333
San Francisco

[Karl Krueger]

Hey Guys:

On Lake Michigan you are also getting credit for furling head sail which
helps greatly when competing with race equipped boats.

Karl Krueger - Milwaukee WI, Kindred Spirit #282 (Fifth place overall out
of 280 boats, Queens Cup Race)

On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 11:53 AM, Andrew Santangelo <
andrew_s...@mac.com> wrote:

> Pat,
>
> Yes when I was on Lake Michigan I felt was "punished" for the Wing Keel.
> The swap to the fin put me at a big advantage - a more even keel.
>
> When I move back to Lake Macatawa/Michigan it will be nice to get back on
> the more active racing/cruising mode! Only time for cruising in mostly
> VERY WINDY San Francisco.

>
> Best Regards,
> Andrew
>
>
> C320
> "Dawn Treader"
> #333
> San Francisco
>

> On Nov 8, 2011, at 12:48 PM, pat reynolds wrote:
>
> > Phrf base handicap assumes a folding prop. I always hoped to get credit
> for a wing keel but I also have a 156 base
> >
> > with Lake Michigan Phrf
>
>

--
Karl W Krueger - ABR, CRS, GRI, CDPE
RE/MAX Realty 100
Phone - 414-322-6541
Fax - 414-327-6870

[pat reynolds]

Hey Karl , They initially gave me the furling credit until I told them that it came with the production boat and then they took it away.  According to LMPHRF that credit only applies to boats adding furling later.  Then this year they reduced everybody's jam rating by at least 3 seconds also.  They don't seem to be quick about explaining their actions

________________________________
From: Karl Krueger <smooth...@sbcglobal.net>
To: C320...@catalina320.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 8, 2011 12:42 PM

Subject: Re: [C320-list] fin vs. wing keel

Hey Guys:

[Jane & Ken]

Hummmm, politics everywhere.  Ken

--- On Wed, 11/9/11, pat reynolds <lora...@yahoo.com> wrote: