[C320-list] Perkins Perama M30 Overheating

[Mark Cole]

My wife and I motored our boat over to a local boat yard for a haul-out yesterday. About 20 minutes into the 1 hour trip, I noticed the water temp gauge was up to 220° and there was grey smoke (steam?) coming from the exhaust. I shut the engine down and checked the raw water strainer. There was a little gunk in the strainer, but not much. Everything else looked OK, so I started the engine up again; there was cooling water coming out of the exhaust and water temp was back to normal. We motored the rest of the way to the haul-out and the temp gauge stayed at 175° the whole way. I went back to the boat this morning to start on the long list of stuff to do. When I checked the bilge, there was maybe a gallon of water with antifreeze in the bilge. I opened the heat exchanger on the engine, thinking it would be empty, but it was full. When I dipped my finger in, it didn’t smell like antifreeze… Is it possible that the heat exchanger burst when the water temperature went up? Does that mean I could now have salt water in the engine block? Anybody dealt with this before?

Mark
Fiddler’s Green, #8
Tacoma, Washington

[Bev Wright]

Mark,

Thanks for your post because, coincidentally, Whoosh #15 overheated on Wed night in Herring Bay/Chesapeake (opposite coast!) for the first time ever since I got her in 07/2014 and our boats are both 1993 vintage so I wonder if that's a sign of something? I was motoring to the slip after engine had been running/idling for 90+ minutes (hanging out waiting for a race which didn't happen due to no wind) and noticed that temp was about 190° at 3000 RPM. I throttled back to 2000 RPM and it cooled down immediately to normal 175°. I inched it back up to 2500 and it stayed at 175° for the remaining 20 min trip back to the slip. I had no smoke. Today I checked the strainer and it was clean. Oil, transmission fluid and coolant were OK and dry bilge. So, it's a mystery other than maybe she doesn't like to idle for that long. It was suggested that perhaps something was temporarily blocking the raw water intake. I will be cruising this weekend and will obviously keep an eye on it.

Bev Wright
s/v Whoosh #15
Deale, MD

Tacoma, Washington=

[Timothy Woods]

I had a similar problem with my last boat. It would overheat and when I
would restart it would cool back down. It drove me nuts for 6 months. It
end up being the raw water impeller rubber delaminented from the brass
bushing.

Tim

> Tacoma, Washington=
>
>

[mill...@aol.com]

Tim, Good Point. Several years ago I had the same experience and found the new Yanmar impeller ( one week old)
had de-bonded from the brass collar..... at lower speeds the friction between impeller and collar
was enough to provide cooling.
Bad batch .... I was told by Yanmar, etc. I now test a new impeller by using a piece of wood to jam/hold the collar while trying to rotate
the impeller to break the bond..... with- in reason.
Art, Liberty, #680

[Jeffrey Brown]

It's does sound like an impeller issue. I change mine every two years, cheap and easy to replace.

Jeff Brown
949-350-5123

[Bev Wright]

for me, it shouldn't be the impeller because i just had it changed in July.

⁣Sent from TypeApp ​

[Bev Wright]

Ps, we have been motoring 2000-3000 for 90 min and temp is fine. I can only hope that it was an obstruction that cleared itself.

⁣Sent from TypeApp ​

[Scott Lagerquist]

For overheating problems that are intermittent there is likely a problem with the raw water flow. Check the strainer, then the impeller and housing of the raw water pump, then the mixing elbow of the exhaust system. Perhaps an acid treatment through a raw water system would eliminate or reduce a blockage in the mixing elbow. Has anyone treated the Perkins M-30 with an acid/water mixture? I'd be interested in the process and results.

Scott Lagerquist
1994 320, #39
Sea Esta
San Diego CA

Sent from my iPad

> On Aug 26, 2017, at 6:18 AM, Timothy Woods <woodst...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

[Mark Cole]

After talking to an engine mechanic, I leaning towards failed heat exchanger. That would explain the antifreeze in the bilge while the heat exchanger is still full. Has anyone replaced their heat exchanger?

Mark
Fiddler’s Green #8
Tacoma, Washington

[P.F. Ross]

Hi, Mark,

I have removed and reinstalled my heat exchanger as part of high temp
troubleshooting. After 21 years (but only 350 hrs), the exchanger appeared
nearly new. Low hours and good condition were a result of (at the time)
being on a freshwater lake with a marina just off of my sailing area.

It was pretty straightforward as I recall. The larger dia clamps of the
rubber boots on each end seal around a flange that is cast into the engine
heat exchanger housing and the smaller dia clamps on the boots seal right
on the ends of cylindrical heat exchanger itself. Of course before you
begin removing clamps, drain all antifreeze and close raw water thru hull.

The rubber boots were pretty stuck to their mating metal surfaces but by
using a stiff plastic putty knife (or similar), I was able to get the boots
a little loose and then using finger power, I was able to peel everything
apart. After the boots are removed, the cylindrical heat exchanger simply
slides forward right out of the engine housing.

I got new boots for reassembly from Trans Atlantic Diesels.

Regards,

Frank Ross
"Beta Wave" #206
Naples, FL

[Christian]

How is your oil looking? If it's milkly/coffee cream at all, then coolant
has gotten in your oil. I only ask because of the color of the smoke you
reported.

The antifreeze in your bilge was likely because you got over the boiling
point of the antifreeze. On the receptacle container, there should be a
vent hose that leads to your engine sump, and it probably boiled out of the
receptacle container into the sump. So check your coolant level as you are
likely low.

What kind of anti freeze are you using? Green, purple, or pink color? The
purple color has very little anti freeze "smell" to it. Pink color has
some. The green color has the most smell.

I don't think you "blew" your heat exchanger. I recently cooked the hell
out of mine, and it survived. They are hearty. The end cap on both sides
of the heat exchanger have two clamps. Smaller diameter clamp clamps onto
the heat exchange tube, and prevents the raw water from mixing with the
anti freeze. Larger clamp is what secures the cap to the radiator unit,
keeping raw water from leaking. I guess it's possible in high heat, if
smaller clamp wasn't tight, your raw water and antifreeze could mix.

The heat exchange unit is easy to pull, as described above. Should have
two large holes on one side of tube, and then a pin hole on the bottom side
of the tube. Inspect for corrosion build up when you peer inside the two
large holes on the side of the tube, and peer at the "straws" on each end
of the tube and ensure clear. I like to put the tube back in with the
large tube side holes facing up, pin size hole facing down.

I don't know anyone that had tried the acid clean of the hat exchange, but
last April I attended a diesel class at Crowley's in Chicago, and they
listed that as a service they recommend on corroded heat exchange units.

But, like others have said, intermittent heating problems suggest raw water
intake flow problems or torn impeller.

Eager to hear what you find, and best of luck.

Christian Caperton
1994 C320 "Canuck" #138
Monroe Harbor, Chicago, IL

[Mark Cole]

Thanks, Christian and Frank! Pulling the heat exchanger cylinder out sounds a lot more straight forward than I was preparing myself for.

The antifreeze in the engine was green. The biggest clue I have to lead me to think the heat exchanger is breached is that the unit is still full up to the top when you remove the pressure cap. Two gallons of antifreeze went into the bilge and water came from somewhere to fill the fresh water side back up. I did check the oil dip stick and the level was the same as when I checked it at the beginning of the trip and still looked like oil, not coffee. I’ll take the unit apart tomorrow and see.

Mark

[ams...@aol.com]

Was there anti freeze under the engine in the pan or just in the bilge. If there was no sign of anti freeze under the engine then I would look at the hoses and connections at the hot water heater. If there is anti freeze in the oil then it is definitely related to the engine.

Did you check the expansion tank for leaks???

My heat exchanger failed a couple of years ago. You could see anti freeze leaking out of the casing above the third cylinder near the exhaust. Did not leak into engine all was outside. I guess after 20 years it reached its life expectancy.

Tony Skivo
1994 Hull # 30

[Mark Cole]

Forgot to mention that piece of the puzzle - yes, there was antifreeze in the pan under the engine. And, there was a slight amount of oil in the antifreeze in the bilge which I think was picked up from the oilsorb pad in the engine pan before the antifreeze passed through the drain hose to the bilge.

What bugs me now is that I’m on the hard so can’t start the engine to check for leaks. I plan to pull the heat exchanger core to today and see where that takes me.

Mark

[Christian]

> I plan to pull the heat exchanger core to today and see where that takes
me.

Mark, you'll have the core out in 20 mins. It's VERY easy to pull.

Here is a link to some pictures on my instagram, should they help.

Front side: https://www.instagram.com/p/BWDyMeBjdGV/?taken-by=ccaper_

Back side: https://www.instagram.com/p/BW52_ojDp3-/?taken-by=ccaper_

Pic of heat exchange unit:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BWLhRntDWeh/?taken-by=ccaper_

Couple of caveats. If you notice on the back side pic, the cup on the
radiator is also connected to the top of the exhaust mixing elbow. If can
be a *$%^!!!! getting the cup back on both. Also, the radiator where the
cup connects has a lip, and it can be a little of a challenge getting the
cup properly seated on the lip (especially new cups). You can lightly
grease the cup so it will slide on better. Go more sparingly on the front
side cup (very thin layer), and be wary of using silicon based grease on
the front cup. It can ball up and clog the front side of your heat
exchange unit.

Also, when you begin to slide out the tube, once you start to slide it a
direction, don't let is drop too hard into the radiator on the side of the
tube sliding inward. Not sure of the strength of the metal on the tube,
don't want you to dent it as it drops. Also, might want to try and make an
orientation note as to which was the back side and which was the front side
of the tube when you pull it (not the orientation of any writing on the
tube, etc). Don't know if it matters, but I like to put parts back in as I
find them, and it's easy to lose track.

good luck!

-Christian Caperton

[Dave Hupe]

Heading in today off of Lake Michigan, we first experienced bad screeching and then realized the engine was overheating.  I shut it off immediately and found a hot engine, rubber smell, some fan belt dust near the front of the engine, and some minor (maybe a cup) leaked antifreeze in the pan below the engine. The oil levels and coolant levels were fine (coolant maybe slightly low)
I had a spare fresh water intake system impeller on board, so while I was waiting for a tow, I anchored and opened the impeller housing.  All the fins were still present, so I don't think this is the problem.  
I suspect my coolant (for the antifreeze) water pump is bad, but won't be able to check it until tomorrow at the earliest.  I remember, when installing a new fan belt just after buying the boat, turning the water pump pulley manually and thinking it felt stiff.  I wonder if the pump basically locked up, causing the engine to overheat and making the fan belt slip on the pulley (which caused the belt dust/rubber smell). 
Any similar experience? 
I think I've read in the C320 posts suggestions about where to buy a new water pump or to have one rebuilt reasonably.  Can anyone provide that again?
Thanks in advance all,
Dave Hupe
1994 C320 (hull#32)
Holland, MI

[Dave Hupe]

Update to my post in this chain about overheating, screeching and rubber smell from my engine.....
My water pump (for antifreeze) definitely is bad/locked up.  I restarted my engine (Perkins Perama M30 "KD" model/version) for a short period while a friend watched the front end of the engine.  The crankshaft was turning and the belt stayed still and just slipped/burned on the cranksaft pulley (the belt was prevented from turning by the pulley of the water pump).
After this "test", I pulled the water pump off and could barely turn the pulley/shaft. I am trying to locate a new pump.  Trans Atlantic Diesel in Virginia (http://www.tadiesels.com/index.htm) quoted me today $263 for the pump and 2 gaskets.  By comaparison, I can get the same original equipment Perkins pump including gaskets from Parts4Engines.com in Great Britain for $130.54 https://www.parts4engines.com/perkins-100-series-perama-m25-m30-m35-mc42-water-pumps/
I have also contacted S & W Diesel in California (http://www.swdieselinc.com/) about this (but no answer yet). 
Does anyone have experience with Parts4Engines.com?
Dave Hupe
1994 Cat320 (hull #32)
Holland, MI

[Dave Hupe]

If you need Perkins parts, definitely check out this online resource in the United Kingdom  https://www.parts4engines.com/  They have numerous items including complete overhaul kits. etc. 
I ordered the antifreeze system water pump (original Perkins part) that I needed for my Perkins Perama M30 engine (which included two gaskets and gasket sealer), a fuel filter, fanbelt and a radiator cap. The pump had completely seized up and I had to be towed back to my slip. I got everything from Parts4 Engines in 3 days and paid $220 total including shipping (the pump, gaskets and sealant were $130). 
By comparison, Trans Atlantic Diesel in Virginia (http://www.tadiesels.com/index.htm) quoted me $263 for just the pump and 2 gaskets. However, I did order new "radiator hoses" from them since I believe my hoses were the old original ones......and it seemed appropriate to replace these too at the same time I was dealing with the pump replacement.  
I was leery ordering overseas, but everything was perfect and it was really fast considering where it came from (DHL Express for the shipping).