[C320-list] Engine problems
John Ellis
While motor sailing on San Diego bay this morning waiting for the wind to fill in, my engine (Westerbeke 30B) started to hesitate and then the RPM dropped from 2600 to 1000. I pushed the throttle full open and after about 20-30 seconds the engine sped up again.
This continued to occur at about five minute intervals. Sometimes the engine speed would drop to about 600 RPM. If I put the transmission in neutral it would eventually run well again, but did not seem to improve any faster than with the transmission in forward, so I thought the problem was not caused by something wrapped around the prop.
My next thought was a fuel filter problem, but the engine seemed to recover and then run well for a while, rather than slowly suffocate and die. Both filters were changed last November and we’ve put less than ten hours on the engine since then. We filled up (9 gallons) with diesel last weekend at the Harbor Island fuel dock.
I checked for the normal amount of cooling water being discharged and that looked fine. After a while the wind filled in and we sailed back, starting the engine for just the last 100 yards into the slip. Does anyone have any ideas what could be causing this problem?
John
#271
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Bruce
Somerset 671 SoCal
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-----Original Message-----
From: John Ellis <jr_el...@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 19:07:32
To: <c320...@catalina320.com>
Subject: [C320-list] Engine problems
Joe Barrett
I once had the same problem on my O'Day in the Bahamas. Only in treacherous
situations would the engine hesitate and sputter. Later found out the Fuel
Pump was on it's last legs. As Fuel was used less pressure would result in
sputtering. Once fuel was topped off it ran fine.
Replacing Fuel pump solved that problem.
Joe Barrett
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John Ellis
Thanks, Bruce. I'll check for water in the primary fuel filter bowl tomorrow. I have not been using any biocide, is there a brand you'd recommend?> To: C320...@Catalina320.com> From: bruce...@cox.net> Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 02:27:17 +0000> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Engine problems> > I'd check the water/fuel separator and see if you have any water. I've seen filters clogged by colonies of bacteria do exactly what you described. Are you using any biosides when you fill up.> Bruce> Somerset 671 SoCal> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T> > -----Original Message-----> From: John Ellis <jr_el...@hotmail.com>> > Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 19:07:32 > To: <c320...@catalina320.com>> Subject: [C320-list] Engine problems> > > > While motor sailing on San Diego bay this morning waiting for the wind to fill in, my engine (Westerbeke 30B) started to hesitate and then the RPM dropped from 2600 to 1000. I pushed the throttle full open and after about 20-30 seconds the engine sped up again. > > This continued to occur at about five minute intervals. Sometimes the engine speed would drop to about 600 RPM. If I put the transmission in neutral it would eventually run well again, but did not seem to improve any faster than with the transmission in forward, so I thought the problem was not caused by something wrapped around the prop. > > My next thought was a fuel filter problem, but the engine seemed to recover and then run well for a while, rather than slowly suffocate and die. Both filters were changed last November and we’ve put less than ten hours on the engine since then. We filled up (9 gallons) with diesel last weekend at the Harbor Island fuel dock. > > I checked for the normal amount of cooling water being discharged and that looked fine. After a while the wind filled in and we sailed back, starting the engine for just the last 100 yards into the slip. Does anyone have any ideas what could be causing this problem?> > John> #271> _________________________________________________________________> Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. > http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_howitworks_012009
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OD
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Barrett" [j...@dolphinmortgage.com]
Sent: 01/17/2009 09:49 PM EST
To: <C320...@Catalina320.com>
Subject: Re: [C320-list] Engine problems
I agree, either Fuel or Water clogging Filter.
I once had the same problem on my O'Day in the Bahamas. Only in treacherous
situations would the engine hesitate and sputter. Later found out the Fuel
Pump was on it's last legs. As Fuel was used less pressure would result in
sputtering. Once fuel was topped off it ran fine.
Replacing Fuel pump solved that problem.
Joe Barrett
-----Original Message-----
From: c320-lis...@lists.catalina320.com
[mailto:c320-lis...@lists.catalina320.com] On Behalf Of
bruce...@cox.net
Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2009 9:27 PM
To: C320...@Catalina320.com
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Jon Vez
The suggestions to check for water are good and the use of a biocide
certainly helps (I use Biobor JF), however if you use the same fuel dock you
may want to check to see if they already add a biocide as many do these
days. If that is the case you should be more discerning in your use of
Biocides--the downside of these is that they kill the critters which in turn
creates sludge at the bottom of your tank.
Given the age of your boat, you may want to look into a fuel polishing
service. Unfortunately our tanks do not have inspection ports, but it is
possible to see if you have sludge build up from years of service...
Regards,
Jon Vez
Solstice #582
-----Original Message-----
From: c320-lis...@lists.catalina320.com
[mailto:c320-lis...@lists.catalina320.com] On Behalf Of John Ellis
Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2009 9:08 PM
To: c320...@catalina320.com
Subject: [C320-list] Engine problems
Windows LiveT: Keep your life in sync.
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Allan S. Field
clear from your post if the engine ran rough as the RPM's decreased or if it
simply started decreasing. So here is a possible solution that may have
been overlooked. Did the throttle lever itself gradually fall back as the
RPM's decreased or did the lever absolutely remain in the same position? If
it remained in the same position, you can stop reading now. But a fairly
common problem is that locking screw for where the throttle cable attaches
to the throttle lever loosens. To access, you need CAREFULLY to remove the
compass, put LokTite on the locking screw, and before the LokTite dries,
adjust the locking screw until the cable slippage problem goes away. From
memory (about 6-7 years ago), you would want to use the blue LokTite.
Hope this helps.
Allan S. Field
Sea Shadow - #808
Columbia, MD
-----Original Message-----
From: c320-lis...@lists.catalina320.com
[mailto:c320-lis...@lists.catalina320.com] On Behalf Of John Ellis
Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2009 9:08 PM
To: c320...@catalina320.com
Subject: [C320-list] Engine problems
Windows LiveT: Keep your life in sync.
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Karl Mielenhausen _/)
Please let us know what you actually find out... it would make a good
article for the technical section of Mainsheet.
I would have thought about something on the shaft or prop first also,
especially if the engine runs OK out of gear. Of course that could just be
due to less hp demand (load).
What was your engine water temp doing through all of this? If it was high
and you could not develop full power and had a rough idle, that might
point to a clogged injector.
I'd bet on fuel contamination, however, especially that was the "last
thing that changed" in your cause and effect analysis. The fill-up may
have added water or algae or stirred something up in the tank (less
likely).
Over the past 2 years, I've been using a product called Algae-X and have
been quite satisfied.
http://www.algae-x.net/pdf/AFC%20705-805_spec_%20sheet.pdf
It has the added advantage of adding lubricity to the fuel. This can be
important if you are using ultra-low sulfur fuel.
Now I am trying a less expensive and more readily available product called
Diesel Kleen (Auto stores, Walmart, etc).
http://www.powerservice.com/dk/
and also adding the very popular Starbrite Biocide
http://www.starbrite.com/sproductdetail.cfm?ID=1538
Together they should do the same job.
Best regards....
--
Karl Mielenhausen
Catalina 320 Hull 690
New Bern, NC
Join us August 7-9, 2009 at Marina Del Rey, CA for our annual Catalina 320
IA Regatta and Annual Meeting.
bruce...@cox.net
Don't remember the brand I use. Bought it many many years ago for the previous boat, do not go through it very quickly. The problem is usually brought on by confused or choppy seas as they stir up the stuff at the bottom of the tank. If you were just motoring around the bay waiting for the wind to fill in then you would have had flat seas unless there was a lot of boat traffic.
Pulling your fuel filter will confirm the presence of dead critters if you find black goo inside the filter. If you find the goo and if you found water in the separator (the bugs grow in the fuel/water boundary) then adding a bioside will kill the bugs in the tank and make the problem worse. The bioside will kill the chains of bugs and then they will settle to the bottom of the tank just waiting to be stirred up at the most inopportune time and clog up your filter and choke of your power and RPM's. Polishing the fuel and cleaning the tank, lines and filters and then using the bioside as a preventative is the best course of action.
Somerset 671 SoCal
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
-----Original Message-----
From: John Ellis <jr_el...@hotmail.com>
To: Catalina 320 association<c320...@catalina320.com>
Orland...@averydennison.com
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Regards,
OD
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
----- Original Message -----
From: bruceheyman
Sent: 01/18/2009 03:13 PM GMT
To: C320...@Catalina320.com
Subject: Re: [C320-list] Engine problems
John,
Don't remember the brand I use. Bought it many many years ago for the previous boat, do not go through it very quickly. The problem is usually brought on by confused or choppy seas as they stir up the stuff at the bottom of the tank. If you were just motoring around the bay waiting for the wind to fill in then you would have had flat seas unless there was a lot of boat traffic.
Pulling your fuel filter will confirm the presence of dead critters if you find black goo inside the filter. If you find the goo and if you found water in the separator (the bugs grow in the fuel/water boundary) then adding a bioside will kill the bugs in the tank and make the problem worse. The bioside will kill the chains of bugs and then they will settle to the bottom of the tank just waiting to be stirred up at the most inopportune time and clog up your filter and choke of your power and RPM's. Polishing the fuel and cleaning the tank, lines and filters and then using the bioside as a preventative is the best course of action.
Bruce
Somerset 671 SoCal
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
-----Original Message-----
From: John Ellis <jr_el...@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 20:17:01
To: Catalina 320 association<c320...@catalina320.com>
Subject: Re: [C320-list] Engine problems
Thanks, Bruce. I'll check for water in the primary fuel filter bowl tomorrow. I have not been using any biocide, is there a brand you'd recommend?> To: C320...@Catalina320.com> From: bruce...@cox.net> Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 02:27:17 +0000> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Engine problems> > I'd check the water/fuel separator and see if you have any water. I've seen filters clogged by colonies of bacteria do exactly what you described. Are you using any biosides when you fill up.> Bruce> Somerset 671 SoCal> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T> > -----Original Message-----> From: John Ellis <jr_el...@hotmail.com>> > Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 19:07:32 > To: <c320...@catalina320.com>> Subject: [C320-list] Engine problems> > > > While motor sailing on San Diego bay this morning waiting for the wind to fill in, my engine (Westerbeke 30B) started to hesitate and then the RPM dropped from 2600 to 1000. I pushed the throttle full open and after about 20-30 seconds the engine sped up again. > > This continued to occur at about five minute intervals. Sometimes the engine speed would drop to about 600 RPM. If I put the transmission in neutral it would eventually run well again, but did not seem to improve any faster than with the transmission in forward, so I thought the problem was not caused by something wrapped around the prop. > > My next thought was a fuel filter problem, but the engine seemed to recover and then run well for a while, rather than slowly suffocate and die. Both filters were changed last November and we’ve put less than ten hours on the engine since then. We filled up (9 gallons) with diesel last weekend at the Harbor Island fuel dock. > > I checked for the normal amount of cooling water being discharged and that looked fine. After a while the wind filled in and we sailed back, starting the engine for just the last 100 yards into the slip. Does anyone have any ideas what could be causing this problem?> > John> #271>_________________________________________________________________> Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. > http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_howitworks_012009
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John Ellis
Many thanks to everyone who offered excellent suggestions on my boat’s engine problems. I’ve learned so much about C320 maintenance from this list.
I’ll ask the fuel dock if there’s a biocide in the fuel they sell. Yesterday the engine was running more and more roughly as the RPM dropped, and so it was not the throttle lever problem that Allen suggested. The PO had replaced the fuel tank, I think about four years ago. There could be a lot of crud in there, but I’ve had no similar problems in the two years I’ve owned the boat. San Diego did get some rain last month, and I have yet to check if the O-ring on the fuel filler cap is in rough shape and could be leaking from the deck. I replaced all of the Lewmar opening ports’ O-rings when two of them leaked last month, and they were all in poor condition.
Today I drained about four ounces of water from the primary fuel filter and then the fuel ran clean through the bowl drain. I started the engine and it ran very smoothly for 20 minutes at the slip. I’m hoping that simply draining the water from the bowl has fixed the problem.
Since I was on my own I decided not to chance taking the boat out, having an engine failure and then trying to sail back into my downwind slip. I’m going for a day sail on Friday with a full crew of six, and so we can save that drama for when we have more hands to either minimize the damage sailing into the slip, and/or appreciate my boat handling skills (or those of the Vessel Assist skipper).
The temperature hit about 80 again this afternoon in San Diego; however there was very little wind.
John
#271> Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 08:50:37 -0500> From: allan...@verizon.net> To: C320...@Catalina320.com> Subject: Re: [C320-list] Engine problems> > John - I have read all the posts regarding your engine problem. It is not> clear from your post if the engine ran rough as the RPM's decreased or if it> simply started decreasing. So here is a possible solution that may have> been overlooked. Did the throttle lever itself gradually fall back as the> RPM's decreased or did the lever absolutely remain in the same position? If> it remained in the same position, you can stop reading now. But a fairly> common problem is that locking screw for where the throttle cable attaches> to the throttle lever loosens. To access, you need CAREFULLY to remove the> compass, put LokTite on the locking screw, and before the LokTite dries,> adjust the locking screw until the cable slippage problem goes away. From> memory (about 6-7 years ago), you would want to use the blue LokTite.> > Hope this helps.> > Allan S. Field> Sea Shadow - #808> Columbia, MD> > -----Original Message-----> From: c320-lis...@lists.catalina320.com> [mailto:c320-lis...@lists.catalina320.com] On Behalf Of John Ellis> Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2009 9:08 PM> To: c320...@catalina320.com> Subject: [C320-list] Engine problems> > > While motor sailing on San Diego bay this morning waiting for the wind to> fill in, my engine (Westerbeke 30B) started to hesitate and then the RPM> dropped from 2600 to 1000. I pushed the throttle full open and after about> 20-30 seconds the engine sped up again. > > This continued to occur at about five minute intervals. Sometimes the engine> speed would drop to about 600 RPM. If I put the transmission in neutral it> would eventually run well again, but did not seem to improve any faster than> with the transmission in forward, so I thought the problem was not caused by> something wrapped around the prop. > > My next thought was a fuel filter problem, but the engine seemed to recover> and then run well for a while, rather than slowly suffocate and die. Both> filters were changed last November and we've put less than ten hours on the> engine since then. We filled up (9 gallons) with diesel last weekend at the> Harbor Island fuel dock. > > I checked for the normal amount of cooling water being discharged and that> looked fine. After a while the wind filled in and we sailed back, starting> the engine for just the last 100 yards into the slip. Does anyone have any> ideas what could be causing this problem?> > John> #271> _________________________________________________________________> Windows LiveT: Keep your life in sync. > http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_howitworks_0120> 09=>
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Jon Vez
It sounds like your problem is indeed fuel related given the water you
drained--one thing I would suggest is to keep your tank topped up. This will
prevent condensation from forming in your tank...
Regards,
Jon Vez
Solstice #582
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Joe Barrett
have that problem again. Even if you remove the water from the Racor you
still have Water in the fuel tank.
Joe Barrett
------------------------------------
John,
Regards,
Jon Vez
Solstice #582
it> have>
Larry Frank
I didn't see how your sail went after draining the water. I hope this
solved your problem.
I have the 30B in WindSwept and have experienced the exact same symptoms as
you have. In my case I did not have any water in the fuel filter. I was
changing filters after 10 hours of running. The problem also seemed to be
worse with a very low level in the fuel tank which seems to support dirty
fuel theories. I dissected one of the filters and there was no sign or dirt
or any thing plugging it us - although I don't know if the microorganisms
would be visible.
I checked the troubleshooting section of the engine manual and it listed the
fuel pump a possible cause of the problem. I replaced mine and the problem
seems to be solved.
I did take the old pump home and it would "run" when attached to a 12V
battery. I think it is a diaphragm pump and the diaphragm may be damaged so
running may not equal pumping.
I learned much during this troubleshooting process. I was very surprised to
find the engine would run without the electric fuel pump running! At least
at idle. I unbolted it from the engine and disconnected the positive 12V
lead and the engine started and ran.
Second I learned that the way the fuel pump is wired it normally runs when
the engine is running using current supplied by the oil pressure sender and
it also runs when you turn the ignition switch to the preheat setting.
The pump does not run when the ignition key is in the on position and the
engine is not running.
-----Original Message-----
From: c320-lis...@lists.catalina320.com
[mailto:c320-lis...@lists.catalina320.com] On Behalf Of John Ellis
Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 8:10 PM
To: Catalina 320 association
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Chris Burti
doesn't cure your problem, try bleeding your injectors. Our Yanmars
sometimes have a little problem with air entering the system, either through
a defective check valve in the return line or a overly flattened crush
washer on the bleed nut. The symptoms are the same as yours. I've been too
lazy to fix the problem on our boat because I can simply pump the Racor a
few times and the problem goes away until the boat sits for an extended
period of time. Apparently it is only a bubble or two that only causes
problems when they have a long time to accumulate.
If I haven't run the engine for a few weeks, I simply pump it four or five
times when I open the intake through hull as a matter of course and have no
problems. If I forget, it will let me know pretty quick when I run up the
engine before leaving the slip.
--
Chris Burti Farmville, NC