[C320-list] Battery boxes
LOC...@aol.com
surveyor noted that the Catalina's three batteries were not in battery boxes. The
broker said that Catalina has a waiver for the 320 and the boats come
without battery boxes from the factory. The surveyor had never heard this and
didn't believe it. The surveyor believed that the Coast Guard would have a
serious problem with a boat that had its batteries that were not in battery
boxes.
So, who's correct?
Due to the age of the batteries, it is time for me to replace all three
batteries and this would be a great time to place the batteries in boxes if it
is truly required by the Coast Guard. Just for the sake of safety, I believe
I should place the batteries in boxes but I am curious as to the broker's
veracity on this subject.
Is there anyone out there who can state categorically and without a doubt
who is correct, the surveyor or the broker?
If the Battery boxes are truly required, It appears I will be somewhat
challenged due to the space available to me. The group 27, starting battery is
up in the front of the starboard settee and just behind it is the first of
two Rolls, 4Ds. The second 4D is in the compartment just behind the other
two batteries. I think the problem is going to be getting the group 27
battery in a box due to its location at the front of the settee.
So, how do the rest of you 320 battery box people do it?
Thanks for any input you care to share.
John. #329
Jeff Hare
I can't say whose right. *I* believe Catalina however. With well over 1000 hulls built and shipped all over the world this way, it's a non-issue for the intended use of the boat in my opinion.
Given that the batteries are in a well protected area and securely held down, sit in a spill tray, there's little to be gained by a battery box. One wouldn't fit anyway without downsizing the batteries.
The real danger of flooded batteries I've heard is the chance of seawater contacting battery acid. A box won't likely solve that since they MUST be we'll vented.
If using the boat for serious offshore use you'd use AGMs anyway for maximum safety.
Just keep the 4Ds we'll secured and enjoy the boat.
-Jeff
Robert Seastream
to port (at least on my model), rather than starboard where the
batteries are?
I'd think placing the breaker panel to starboard would have reduced
some cable runs and their inherent voltage drop.
Bob Seastream
Intuition # 906
Karl Mielenhausen _/)
having their batteries in boxes. Depending on your insurance company, you
may be forced to fix such an observation made in the survey report.
Here is what I have been able to find out:
1/ There is no USCG requirement for battery boxes as such.
Reference 33 CFR 183.420:
http://tinyurl.com/2f4dyg7
There are specific requirements, such as to constrain motion, vent
hydrogen gas, prevent shorting of terminals, etc.
2/ ABYC standards call for a method to contain electrolyte leakage, which
might include a leakproof compartment dedicated to batteries only, boxes,
or trays.
Reference E10:
http://tinyurl.com/2abujku
Note that these are industry standards, not specifications or
requirements. As such "a waiver" seems to be marketing-speak.
ABYC Technical Board Rules provide that all reports, including standards
and recommended practices and technical information reports, are advisory
only. Their use is entirely voluntary. They are believed to represent, as
of the date of publication, the consensus of knowledgeable persons,
currently active in the field of small craft, on performance objectives
that contribute to small boat safety.
Unfortunately, most insurance companies require periodic surveys (usually
every 4 or 5 years) in order to insure "compliance" to some standards of
safety and structural integrity. More and more recognized marine surveyors
are inspecting and reporting their results to ABYC standards. As a result,
it is becoming virtually impossible to not adhere to the ABYC standards
and still carry decent insurance coverage and, therefore, such
"recommendations" have become a defacto standard for us boaters. Like it
or not, we cannot obtain a boat loan without it being secured by insurance
coverage.
Karl
--
Karl Mielenhausen
Catalina 320 Hull 690
Larry Frank
I have had my boat surveyed twice by well respected local surveyors who had
a lot of things to say and never heard about this. I'd just work with your
insurance company and if necessary try to put the money into a better
battery like a Gel or AGM. You will get a benefit from a better battery,
none from boxes.
Larry
-----Original Message-----
From: c320-lis...@lists.catalina320.com
[mailto:c320-lis...@lists.catalina320.com] On Behalf Of
LOC...@aol.com
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 4:58 PM
To: C320...@Catalina320.com
Subject: [C320-list] Battery boxes
Chris Burti
providing me an authoritative interpretion that I am not aware of, the
following is my interpretaion of the question. There is no such
requirement or recommendation and it is a misinterpretation by the
surveyor. Not all surveyors are qualified. My good friend Karl may
have fallen into the same trap as the surveyor by reading more into
the recommendations than is there. a Box is an acceptable arrangement
but the controlling provisions are :
"10.7.2 Provision shall be made to contain incidental leakage and
spillage of electrolyte."
Note the use of the word "incidental". This is not synonymous with
"all" and thus, does not call for "leakproof"
10.7.7.3 is in a differnt subsection and calls for "installing the
battery in a compartment specially designed only for the battery(s)."
I believe the ABYC battery installation requirements have been
complied with by Catalina with the design of the segregated
compartment with trays and complying hold down frame.
What I suspect has occurred is the surveyor has read 10.7.7.3 without
considering the disjunctive 'or' at the end of the sentence as
follows.
10.7.7.2 installing the battery in a covered battery box, or.
10.7.7.3 installing the battery in a compartment specially designed
only for the battery(s).
Even more incorrect is that this requirement is in the section dealing
with electrical contact, the electrolytic leaking requirement stands
alone in its wow subsection 10.7.2. the battery box provisions are in
10.7.7 and the surveyor has combined the two different subsections as
one requirement.
10.7.7 To prevent accidental contact of the ungrounded battery
connection to ground, each battery shall be protected so that metallic
objects cannot come into contact with the ungrounded battery terminal
and uninsulated cell
straps. This may be accomplished by means such as;
10.7.7.1 covering the ungrounded battery terminal with a boot or
non-conductive shield, or
10.7.7.2 installing the battery in a covered battery box, or
10.7.7.3 installing the battery in a compartment specially designed
only for the battery(s).
I believe that our boats come with a certificate that they comply with
the American Boat & Yacht Council, recommendations.
Your surveyor need to re-read these recommendations and revise his
opinion or provide some authoritative guideline that he has relied
on...if they want to stay insurer's approved list they can't make up
their own standards.
My need to study this came from a discussion with a CG Auxilliray
member's interpretation for the requiremnt for a boot on the
terminals in order to earn a sticker. when I showed her the standards
her answer was.."well. you might put something in there that could
contact the terminal"...I pointed out she was making up her own
interpretation since there was nothing else in the compartment...the
discussion stalled when I also pointed out that her hypothetical
'something' could dislodge the stupid, ill designed boot she was
calling for.
.
--
Chris Burti Farmville, NC
Note the word "incidental" that is not equivilent with "all". Nor, as
Karl has interpreted, does it require the compartment to be "leak
proof".
LOC...@aol.com
insurance issue. I was just curious. I like doing things correctly and just
couldn't understand why Catalina would not be doing "the right thing" when it
came to battery boxes. Apparently Catalina is doing the right thing.
Which reminds me; thank you to all the people who provided me with the
wealth of information that has been sent. Whatever they are paying you guys, it
isn't enough.
Larry, you mentioned two other types of batteries; AGMs and Gells. I was
under the understanding that the Rolls 4D was, well, the Rolls Royce of
batteries? For a cruising C320, do you believe another battery would provide the
requisite energy and still provide such a long life as the 4D? The 4Ds I
am about to replace have been in service for over 10 years and are only now
beginning to have issues.
One thing I can say about not having a battery sealed in a battery box is
that there has been some acid leakage down the battery and onto the
fiberglass. The fiberglass has been discolored but still holds strong.
Does anyone else have this acid on fiberglass issue?
John # 329
Bill Culbertson
Rolls are pretty much the Rolls-Royce of lead-acid batteries. For AGMs I feel
that Lifeline's are the Rolls-Royce. I replaced my original Exide Gold's with 2
LifeLine 4D's 2 years ago after getting a whopping 7 years out of the Exide's.
The Lifeline's are expensive but projected to give lots of years and I'm sold on
the advantages of AGMs. Also they are rated @ 210Ah and I had lots of trouble
finding any 4Ds over 180Ah.
http://www.lifelinebatteries.com/marinedeepcycle.php
-bill
Harmony #859
________________________________
From: "LOC...@aol.com" <LOC...@aol.com>
To: C320...@Catalina320.com
Sent: Sat, August 14, 2010 3:30:03 PM
Subject: Re: [C320-list] Battery boxes
LOC...@aol.com
to go. My charging system is the three stage type so I will have to
figure out a way how to get rid of the conditioning stage. I hear that you can
fry an AGM if it goes through the conditioning stage of the recharge
process. It looks like a little more research is in order on my part?
John #329
In a message dated 8/14/2010 3:58:30 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
Chris Burti
I don't need it and wanted the highest RC at the lowest price. Exide
Com-4D-P offers me 320 AH and I am seeing them advertised at $169.
They were about $130 when I bought mine in '04. If you want more AH
and are willing to mod the compartment and spend a few more bucks, you
can go to 4 golf cart batteries in two parallel banks of series pairs
and bump RC to over 400 AH per bank.
--
Chris Burti Farmville, NC
Jeff Hare
It is unlikely that a charger would switch to the conditioning (equalization?) Mode on its own. This is something you would normally have to do intentionally since there are precautions that need to be taken before using this mode.
I have lifeline 4Ds. They're great in my situation because of the long winter layup we have. I can disconnect them and ignore them all winter and they're still fully charged after 6 mos. Standard Flooded batteries wouldn't survive this without periodic charging or a solar panel.
What charger do you have? The mfgr could clear up the equalization mode question for you.
Bill & Heather
winter lay-up. I have 5 year old flooded 4D's that are fully charged (or
very close to it) after a 6 and 1/2 month lay-up in up-state NY. I turn the
selector switch to off, and walk away till spring launch. Very happy with
wet cells, But will most likely go with golf cart batteries when these go,
and enjoy the added capacity.
Anyone ever have trouble with there charger not coming back on after
floating, and letting the batteries go dead? My Charles 30 amp has done this
4 times over the years. Will be sending it in for warranty repair over the
winter as it has a 5 year warranty. The boat stays on charge 24 - 7 with the
fridge running at the dock.
Bill
FAT CAT #1058
Larry Frank
It appears that most of your questions have been answered.
I currently have gel cells and what I like most is that they are maintenance
free. I don't need to add water.
What nobody seemed to have said is that there three battery technologies to
choose from. If you know this then I apologize for assuming you don't.
Wet cells use liquid sulfuric acid as the electrolyte. You have to check
and add distilled water periodically as a maintenance item. Sulfuric acid
is highly corrosive and must be handled with care. Rolls has a very good
reputation for this type of battery.
Gel cells use an electrolyte that is in a gel. It is not a liquid. You do
not add water to this type of battery and there is not much potential for
spillage.
AGM are absorbed glass mat batteries. The electrolyte is absorbed in a
glass mat and like the gel cells, you do not add water. Like the gel they
are maintenance free with little chance for any spillage.
Each battery type has its pros and cons. The main advantage of a wet cell
is that it will cost far less. For some reason I am nervous about battery
acid sloshing around and maybe spilling from the top of a wet cell so I
chose one of the other two. I will add however that I never once had any
problem with wet cells in this regard.
Larry
-----Original Message-----
From: c320-lis...@lists.catalina320.com
[mailto:c320-lis...@lists.catalina320.com] On Behalf Of
LOC...@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 2:30 PM
To: C320...@Catalina320.com
Subject: Re: [C320-list] Battery boxes
Warren Updike
same thing. Conditioning consists of imparting a low voltage at high
frequency, while equalization imparts a high voltage intended to force the
cells to move to a common high voltage. Equalization causes the cells to gas
excessively. Conditioning can be done over a long period of time without
monitoring. Equalization is a process that must be carefully monitored to
avoid damaging the cells.
There is a lot more to be said about both and I am curious for any other
comments on either process.
When I bought a new external regulator, Balmar ARS-5, it didn't have an
equalization option. Balmar told me that equalization is a controversial
issue and that Balmar was thinking of dropping it from future product
versions. I have never performed an equalization.
Warren & Pattie Updike
1994 C320 #62 "Warr de Mar"
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Hare [mailto:cata...@thehares.com]
Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 9:45 AM
djgle...@juno.com
In response to your question regarding the breaker panel on the port side
is: The original placement of the 4 D batteries was one on the port
side just forward of the nav table. The other was placed on the
starboard side. On hull #150, the previous owner moved the port battery
to the starboard side. I do not know when Catalina made the change to
both on the starboard side.
Dave Gleason, #150
Proud Mary
> > -Jeff
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: LOC...@aol.com
> > Sender: c320-lis...@lists.catalina320.com
> > Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 17:58:15
> > To: <C320...@Catalina320.com>
> > Reply-To: C320...@Catalina320.com
> > Subject: [C320-list] Battery boxes
> >
> > In April I bought a beautiful Catalina 320. During the survey,
> the
> > surveyor noted that the Catalina's three batteries were not in
> > battery boxes. The
> > broker said that Catalina has a waiver for the 320 and the boats
> come
> > without battery boxes from the factory. The surveyor had never
> > heard this and
> > didn't believe it. The surveyor believed that the Coast Guard
> would
> > have a
> > serious problem with a boat that had its batteries that were not in
>
> > battery
> > boxes.
> >
> > So, who's correct?
> >
> > Due to the age of the batteries, it is time for me to replace all
>
> > three
____________________________________________________________
Project Management Cert
Villanova PMP® & CAPM® Classes. Average Salary For PMPs is $100K
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4c68281da6e846e5ea1st05duc
Paul Rickman
http://shop.pkys.com/battery-equalization.aspx
There are others that can be searched out.
The Xantrex True Charge 20 has an equalizer but
it must be manually turned on. It can be turned off
by simply cutting the power to the unit.
Paul
Affinity 657
Bay Bridge Marina
________________________________
From: Warren Updike <wup...@hotmail.com>
To: C320...@Catalina320.com
Sent: Sun, August 15, 2010 4:29:21 PM
Warren Updike
think that is the original location. ---
Warren
-----Original Message-----
From: djgle...@juno.com [mailto:djgle...@juno.com]
Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 1:46 PM
To: C320...@Catalina320.com
Cc: C320...@Catalina320.com
Subject: Re: [C320-list] Battery boxes
djgle...@juno.com
This is interesting, as the original wiring is still in place. I am not
sure if it was battery 1 or 2 on the port side. I will have to check
that out. The previous owner mentioned that it was moved because of the
port list.
Dave Gleason
Jamie Pett
I have been following the 'battery box' discussion, and have a
tangential question for the list - I recently installed a new Xantrex 40
amp charger, and in the course of learning a bit about 12 v. dc systems
have discovered that overcurrent protection (fused connections) should
be used on virtually all DC circuits to prevent a dead ground which can
start a fire.
My battery set-up does not appear to have any in-line fuses anywhere.
Does the panel act as a 'breaker' in any way for the dc circuits ? Even
if it does, it seems there should be fuses at the batteries in any event
- I have a house bank of (4) group 27's in parallel on the #1 switch
(about 360 aH total) and a group 24 starting on the #2
I understand the original setup was (2) 4-d batteries, and the PO
presumably changed this. I do not know how to install fuses, or where
they should be in my setup - at each battery positive (5 fuses?), at the
beginning and end of each bank only, etc. ? Also, how do you size the
fuse ?
Any input appreciated.
Jamie Pett
Bella Luna
#614
chester carson
You are correct. I had a fire on the charger wire to the battery. Very
scary. Catilina has a diagram for the fuse required which is placed as close
to the battery as feasible(3 or 4 inches). The older boats did not have this
fuse.
The branch circuits are protected by the circuit breakers at the panel.
Kit Carson
#223
jpm...@aol.com
Is that diagram of the fuse on the 320 web site or should I get in touch with Catalina. John Holokai 2 #112
=
Jamie Pett
Jamie Pett
Bella Luna
#614
-----Original Message-----
From: c320-lis...@lists.catalina320.com on behalf of chester carson
Sent: Tue 8/17/2010 2:24 PM
To: C320...@catalina320.com
Subject: Re: [C320-list] new subject: overcurrent protection