[C320-list] ENGINE FUEL PRIME

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sail-ability sail-ability

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May 8, 2022, 7:51:06 AMMay 8
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I'm having an issue with my 3GM30F 1998 engine on my 320. After
sitting idle for a time the engine refuses to start. The solution, I've
discovered, is to prime the fuel system using the pump on the RACOR fuel
filter. Whilst operating the pump. I can hear a hissing sound of air
escaping from somewhere on the starboard side of the engine. Thus far
I've been unable to discover from where it is coming. I've tightened
fuel fittings and can see no fuel leaks or see any bubbles coming from
fuel fittings. My next attempt is to replace the secondary fuel filter
on the engine, needs doing anyhow.
Thoughts?
John Morrison
1999 #574

Jon Vez

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May 8, 2022, 8:01:18 AMMay 8
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Check the crush washer on the bleed screw of the secondary filter. These should be replaced anytime the bleed screw is used, however I’ve found changing it every time I changed the filter sufficed…

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> On May 8, 2022, at 7:51 AM, sail-ability sail-ability <sail-a...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> 

Troy Dunn

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May 9, 2022, 7:45:46 PMMay 9
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John-

Free advice in no particular order.

1) There are copper crush washers between all the banjo fittings. These
are super cheap and throw away. Attempting to reuse and/or tighten them
down rarely works out, or if it does only for a little while.

2) Change the smaller filter on the engine once a year. Is it 100%
necessary, no but it's super cheap and super easy. Do not attempt to reuse
the oring. Seat the filter by hand then just gently put the oring and
filter housing in place, tighten that little band by hand and then gently
(very gently) tap the band home with a flathead acrewdriver. You just need
to snug it up, do not over tighten.

3) bleed seal is a nylon like material. It is reusable so long as you
simply get it snug and then gently 'nip' it a fraction of a turn like maybe
a tenth of a turn. Overtightening will turn that seal into a once and done
as well. Definitely replace it this time since you probably don’t know
how it was abused in the past.

4)I’m a tad concerned that you are losing as much prime as you are and that
you aren’t finding diesel somewhere on your engine or in your engines
special little self contained bilge area. The fact that you hear air
escaping is not a good sign. Are you sure it isn’t the diesel return line
you hear? Probably not since you are saying the noise is on the starboard
side. The fuel filter is a good candidate for leaks but generally it
will be very ‘oily’ with diesel and should drip noticeable. Another item
that can leak is the fuel lift pump. There are two possible mechanisms at
play. There is a diaphragm that can leak at the seal. Check that for
sure. It’s easy to simply replace the lift pump. The lift pump diaphragm
can also fail and that can be bad news because it could potentially be
leaking fuel into your engine. I think you can check the oil to see if it
looks funny. If it does look funny, I’d get a real diesel mechanic
involved. You can easily replace the lift pump and contaminated oil but I
have no idea how one 'rinses' out the engine of fuel contaminated dirty
oil…

Good Luck

Troy Dunn
Hull #514

Jeff Hare

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May 13, 2022, 10:14:50 AMMay 13
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Troy,

That's a really good list. There's an alternative to #2 which we did for 20 years in Woodbine.

We always ran an R15S filter in the primary Racor and the Yanmar recommended 10u(?) engine mounted filter and changed the Racor every year.

The R15S is a 2u filter. If you end up with a clogged filter, you can be fairly certain that you only need to change the Racor to get running again. The engine mounted filter is intended to be a safety for anything that slips by the primary Racor during fuel line servicing or primary filter change that would be damaging to the injectors. The tech from Mac Boring and our local Yanmar dealer/installer/mechanic at Merri-Mar both explained the same thing to me independently back when we bought our boat.

Instead, if you follow the old-timer's advice of going with 15u or 30u filters in the Racor, followed by the stock Yanmar engine filter, you can be fairly certain that if you ever get a clogged filter, you'll have to change both the engine and the Racor filters. Filters don't tend to clog at the dock, so that's a lot more work underway and probably in unkind conditions. You could also find that the engine filter (having so much less surface area) will get fully clogged well before the Racor and you still wouldn't know for sure whether you needed to change the Racor as well or not.

The R15S filter allows a much higher fuel flow rate than the fuel pump can move anyway, so there's little concern of starving the system. Using this approach, we changed the Racor every season and only changed the engine mounted filter every 3 or 4 years and the one we removed appeared just as clean as the one we removed. The Racor was always discolored when changed. In a large Diesel that moves a ton of fuel, this could be more of an issue.

We also installed a shutoff valve at the outflow side of the Racor so that we could isolate the Racor when changing it and minimize the chance of getting debris in the line during the change and make it far easier to bleed. Anything that did get in the line during that would either be stopped by the engine filter or is small enough to safely pass.

That's worked flawlessly for us for 20 years owning Woodbine.

One thing we had considered was putting an inline vacuum gauge between the Racor and the fuel pump to get a better sense of when the filter needed to be changed, but a bright flashlight through the clear bowl has worked well enough (but decidedly unscientific). Just something I never got around to and never actually needed.

-Jeff Hare

RONALD HODEL

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May 13, 2022, 11:21:07 AMMay 13
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I love all the advice and ideas. One thing I did was put a fuel shut off valve right before the racor filter. That way I don’t have to dive down to the fuel tank to turn off the fuel before changing the racor filter. (It just may be that I learned that the hard way).

Ron Hodel
1070 Lokomaikai

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> On May 13, 2022, at 7:14 AM, Jeff Hare <Cata...@thehares.com> wrote:
>
> Troy,

Jeff Smith

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May 13, 2022, 11:35:05 AMMay 13
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I can confirm the vacuum gauge is nice. My boat has a dual Racer system. If I notice my vacuum getting into the red, I immediately switch to the secondary Racor. My boat also has the shut-off prior to the Racor. One thing I added was an electric fuel pump between the fuel tank and the Razor. I did this to assist with bleeding the fuel system after filter changes. It is better than using either the Razor plunger or the lift pump to bleed the system.

Jeff Smith

Jack Brennan

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May 13, 2022, 11:44:22 AMMay 13
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Racor sells a pressure gauge that screws into the top if the filter. A little pricey, but it makes it incredibly easy to ensure your filter is not getting clogged.

I use a different approach while installing the 30 micron filter on the Racor and the 10 micron (I think) on the engine. What I do is buy all of my diesel in jugs and filter it through a Baja aircraft filter. This ensures you’re not introducing any water or crap into the tank.

The stern seat provides an easy platform for setting one of the new-style jugs on its side. It drains right into the Baja filter without spilling a drop.

I also put a capful of Biobar into the tank with each five-gallon fill-up to kill any bacteria in the diesel and to provide the extra lubrication that older diesels need since sulfur disappeared from the fuel.

Oh, and don’t forget to change the O ring on the fuel cap periodically so that no rain or seawater drips into the tank.

I’ve been doing this for 12 years on Yanmar diesels and have never had a dirty filter when I change the big one every year or so. That’s with more than 100 sailing days a year in western Florida.

Jack Brennan
Sonas, 1998 Catalina 320
Tierra Verde, Fl.




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RONALD HODEL

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May 13, 2022, 5:36:45 PMMay 13
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Jeff,
How long can diesel remain in the unused filter that is sitting in waiting?
Ron Hodel
1070 Lokomaikai

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> On May 13, 2022, at 8:35 AM, Jeff Smith <svsailm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I can confirm the vacuum gauge is nice. My boat has a dual Racer system. If I notice my vacuum getting into the red, I immediately switch to the secondary Racor. My boat also has the shut-off prior to the Racor. One thing I added was an electric fuel pump between the fuel tank and the Razor. I did this to assist with bleeding the fuel system after filter changes. It is better than using either the Razor plunger or the lift pump to bleed the system.

Graeme Clark

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May 13, 2022, 7:53:36 PMMay 13
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Can anyone who installed a vacuum gauge expand on that. Which gauge, what sort of range should it display and at what reading does it indicate blockage?
Thanks
Graeme

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> On 13 May 2022, at 16:35, Jeff Smith <svsailm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I can confirm the vacuum gauge is nice. My boat has a dual Racer system. If I notice my vacuum getting into the red, I immediately switch to the secondary Racor. My boat also has the shut-off prior to the Racor. One thing I added was an electric fuel pump between the fuel tank and the Razor. I did this to assist with bleeding the fuel system after filter changes. It is better than using either the Razor plunger or the lift pump to bleed the system.

Jack Brennan

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May 13, 2022, 9:05:15 PMMay 13
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Hi Graeme:

I should have mentioned this earlier. I didn’t like the stock Racor and replaced it with a 500 model, mounted on the bulkhead in the port stern locker. I thought the original was a pain where it was mounted under the aft bunk. This gives me easy access and viewing.

The gauge replaces the handle on the top of the 500. It has a white all-clear section, a yellow warning zone and a red watch-out section. I’m not at the boat, but my memory is that the red zone is about 10 psi and yellow is more than 5.

I’m not sure whether you can mount this gauge on the stock filter. You can also mount a pressure gauge in the fuel line between the filter and the fuel pump, if you choose to keep the original Racor.

Jack Brennan
Sonas, 1998 Catalina 320
Tierra Verde, Fl.




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Graeme Clark

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May 14, 2022, 5:15:26 AMMay 14
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That’s great thanks. I have just found a photo of the racor gauge and can see the markings as well thanks. Useful to see that you can get a panel mounted gauge too so a t piece between the filter and engine would enable a remote gauge which could be mounted somewhere visible when bunk mattresses still in place.
Graeme

Sent from my phone. Excuse typos!

> On 14 May 2022, at 02:05, Jack Brennan <jackb...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> Hi Graeme:

Stephen Cox

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May 14, 2022, 12:39:07 PMMay 14
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The Racor gauge is a standard vacuum gauge with some fancy markings but all the action takes place in a very restricted area of the dial. If you are going to install such a gauge you might like to think about using the one from Dent Marine. It is a 0-15in Hg gauge compared to the Racor 0-30 in Hg. Much easier to read and generally see what is going on. See https://dentmarine.com/products/0-to-15-in-hg-vacuum-gauge-model-dm-15v

Stephen Cox
Tegwen #1141

wd...@aol.com

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May 15, 2022, 7:41:09 AMMay 15
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Trying to optimize performance for some club racing, and have noticed different upwind pointing ability/boat speed on port vs starboard tack. Using the association's loaner Loos P2 and P3 gauges, I have confirmed that the rig tension is off, with each stay's tension differing side-to-side and also differing from those listed in the 2004 C320 association article below by Mark Yeager. 
Questions:1- When reading the gauges, are the settings listed below read on the scale at the top of the gauge or from the wire size-specific percentages on the chart further down the gauge?2- Which are the D1 vs D2 stays?3- There is already a "toggle" under the roller furling drum on the forestay, but I do not have an adjustable backstay...not sure I'm ready to take this on or how I would use it...thoughts?4- In the 18 years since this article was written has anyone come up with different settings?5- Is Mark Yeager still part of the C320 group??
              Cap stays-PT-3 gauge18    
              D1 forward stays-PT-2 gauge 31
              D1 aft stays-PT-2 gauge 16
              D2 stays-PT-2 gauge 18.5

Thanks in advance!
Bill McConnellDIVERSION, #714Middle River, MD

From the C320 Association website:

Rig Tune and Sail Selection

- by Anonymous 
- Saturday, August 28 2004 @ 08:34 PM EDT
  Views: 15,677   Posted in Technical Articles
-
  RIG TUNE AND SAIL SELECTION FOR CATALINA 320

Mark Yeager
Quantum Sails-Dallas .....
Now that we've got that little disclaimer out of the way, let's get down to it. The 320 has the
ability to go upwind well, but not out of the box. It needs a little bit of help from its friends. First
the forestay needs to be a little longer than it is. The addition of a toggle under the roller furling
unit will provide you with the needed extra distance. What this does is rake the mast slightly aft,
moving the center of effort with it. When finished, the backstay turnbuckles should be all the way
down and you should be able to swing the forestay in about a one-foot diameter circle at chest
height standing on foredeck with a moderate amount of effort. (This is done with the backstay
adjuster eased all the way.) I know it would be better if I could give you a pin-to-pin dimension
for the forestay, but I don't have one. Most 320's come delivered and commissioned from the
dealers with a "rock-hard" forestay and backstay. I've never run across one that was any different.
While the hard forestay is ok for heavy air sailing, it won't cut it for light air. I think most of you
already know that. So what the toggle installation accomplishes is two-fold. It rakes the mast
slightly and at the same time, softens the forestay.

Now for the sidestay tensions. These I can give you hard numbers for, but you're going to have to
buy two tuning gauges to do it yourself. One will not do it because of your wire sizes. For the cap
stays (the ones running from the deck to the top of the mast) you will need a Loos PT-3 gauge.
For all the other stays you will need a Loos PT-2. Do NOT attempt to use the same gauge on all
of them. You'll get it wrong. (Update of 8/28/04) The PT-3 is built to measure all three sizes of
shrouds found on the 320, but the tension readings for the D2's and D1 laftstays are off the
bottom end of the scale and cannot be used. Several of you have asked about this.)


Cap stays-PT-3 gauge18
D1 forward stays-PT-2 gauge 31
D1 aft stays-PT-2 gauge 16
D2 stays-PT-2 gauge 18.5

In order of tightness, the cap stays are always the tightest, the D1 forwards are next, and the D1
aft and D2's are the loosest. What we've done here is put a little bit of pre-bend in the mast by
tightening the forward D1's more than the aft ones. 

Now that we've got the front end and the sides done, it's time to install a backstay adjuster,
which is mandatory after loosening up the forestay as much as we have. This can be done very
inexpensively and without ever drilling a hole anywhere in the deck. What you do is replace one
of the lower clevis pins on the backstay turnbuckles with a 3/8" shackle about an inch to an inch
and a half long. The shackle needs to be an inch or so long, not the pin. The jaws of the shackle
only need to be wide enough to fit around the toggle of the turnbuckle.

Jeff Smith

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May 15, 2022, 10:33:22 AMMay 15
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Ron,

Good question. I do occasionally switch just to ensure the mechanism still
works, then I switch back to the primary.

I also switch when I change my filters annually. I go from one to the other
and then only change the one filter.

Jeff
#121

John morrison

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May 15, 2022, 7:43:43 PMMay 15
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Thanks to all who contributed to this discussion. I was in the process of changing the secondary filter on the engine when I discovered that the air bleed screw was loose; I’m sure I tightened it!! Anyhow with new filter and new crush and nylon washers all’s good.
What a great forum.
JohnMorrison
1999#574

wd...@aol.com

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May 21, 2022, 6:44:30 AMMay 21
to C320...@catalina320.com
Trying to optimize my boat's set-up for some club racing, and have noticed different upwind pointing ability/boat speed on port vs starboard tack. Using the association's loaner Loos P2 and P3 gauges, I have confirmed that the rig tension is off, with each stay's tension differing side-to-side and also differing from those listed in the 2004 C320 association article below by Mark Yeager. 

Questions:1.  There is already a "toggle" under the roller furling drum on the forestay, but I do not have an adjustable backstay...not sure I'm ready to take this on or how I would use it...thoughts?2.  Anyone got contact info for Mark Yeager?3.  In the 18 years since this article was written has anyone come up with different settings? Are these settings applicable if there's not an adjustable backstay?

Doug Treff

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May 23, 2022, 10:17:52 AMMay 23
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Lots of good info here - I'll only expand on what others have said - be careful about overtightening the bleed screws on the secondary filter housing. The screws are stainless steel and the housing seems to be some type of aluminum alloy. Very easy to strip the threads in the bleed screw hole and cause a constant fuel leak and also can cause "loss of prime" issues. Mine was damaged by the previous owner and we ended up replacing the entire filter housing assembly to remedy the problem.

As others have said, replace the crush washers periodically. I have a small bag of them on board in my spares kit and replace every third bleed or so.

--
Doug Treff
do...@treff.us

Ben Cares

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May 23, 2022, 10:36:33 AMMay 23
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I just got on here and noticed this thread. After a perfect season last
year, my Perkins Perama engine would not start this year. I changed the
Racor and on-engine fuel filter, bled the system (which had a lot of air in
it), and finally got it to start. Now it will only start after using glow
plugs for 30 seconds, setting the engine on full throttle and continuous
cranking for nearly 30 seconds. We have since changed the fuel and return
lines. still the same result. Once started and shut down, it will
immediately start again, but as soon as the engine has cooled down,I have
to go through the same process again. Once it starts, it runs great,
unloaded or loaded. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Ben Cares
1994 #34
--
All images © 2022
*Ben Cares*
*PHOTOGRAPHICARTS*

commercialphotography
graphicdesign

902 Market Street
Meadville, PA 16335

814.333.2990
814.720.5260 cell

Joe Jablonowski

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May 23, 2022, 10:48:21 AMMay 23
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Have you ever checked inside the exhaust mixing elbow?On my Perkins Perama diesel, the massive iron casting looked fine from the outside, but the internal rust had choked the system badly. The normally 1-1/2 in. dia. aperture had narrowed down to 1/4 in.!- Joe JablonowskiC320 #104

================================

Jeff Smith

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May 23, 2022, 10:59:35 AMMay 23
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Ben,

When I had those issues, I had to have my injectors and my injection pump
rebuilt. I had the exact same symptoms. It took me awhile to diagnose
because I was working by myself.

If you are in the Hampton Roads area, I can give you the name of the
company that did the work, but you have to remove/reinstall yourself.

Good luck,
Jeff
‘94, #121

Dave Hupe

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May 23, 2022, 11:01:25 AMMay 23
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Ben-
Consider installing new glow plugs. The Perkins Perama M30 engine needs these for cold starting. 
I had severe starting problems. I discovered that the glowplugs on my boat were wired to be on constantly during both starting and while the engine ran (rather than just for starting). The previous owners had changed the keyswitch and wired things incorrectly. I corrected the electrical issue, installed new glow plugs and the engine now starts very well.  
I submitted an article to Mainsheet magazine about replacing the glow plugs. Let me know if you would like me to send that to you directly?
Dave Hupe
1994 C320 #32
Holland, MI

Ben Cares

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May 23, 2022, 11:09:43 AMMay 23
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We sail out of Erie, PA but thanks for the info!

On Mon, May 23, 2022 at 10:59 AM Jeff Smith <svsailm...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Joe Geiger

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May 23, 2022, 12:50:41 PMMay 23
to C320...@catalina320.com
I have been busy commissioning Vega to get her ready to sell this season. We keep her on a mooring and have not used the AC or Heat since the boat was purchased in 2019. While at the dock and connected to shore power I opened the AC/Heat thru-hull and turned on the HVAC system. It seemed to be working and cool air was blowing from the ducts but I noticed the water was not coming out of the thru-hull on the aft starboard side of the boat.

I did some troubleshooting and found that the strainer was clean and the sea water pump was working. I took off the hose from the pump to the heat pump and ran the system briefly to verify water was getting into the heat pump. The blockage seems to be in the heat pump coil itself. I am trying to locate diagram of the heat pump before I go sticking something in there.

I was wondering if anyone else on the list has had this issue and if so, where was it blocked and how did you clear it?

Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

Joe

Joe Geiger
Vega #722
Greenwich Cove, RI

ks...@aol.com

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May 23, 2022, 1:18:50 PMMay 23
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I can't help with the heat pump coil but just making sure you bled the air out of the system thus confirming that you were getting the full supply of cooling water circulating.  Neil Kornblatt  Harmony #963

pto...@4square.net

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May 25, 2022, 1:47:07 PMMay 25
to C320...@catalina320.com
Just cleared mine, there was no strainer on the inlet side and debris gathered at the pump head going into the pump. You'd see if if you took the hose off. Of course shut the thru hull.

Pat Tormey
________________________________
From: C320-list <c320-lis...@lists.catalina320.com> on behalf of ks...@aol.com <ks...@aol.com>
Sent: Monday, May 23, 2022 1:18:43 PM
To: C320...@Catalina320.com <C320...@Catalina320.com>
Subject: Re: [C320-list] Clogged Heat Pump

Dave Hupe

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May 25, 2022, 2:14:55 PMMay 25
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Sure the intake thruhull is not clogged?
Dave Hupe


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