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नमस्ते,
A stupid friend is more dangerous than a clever enemy. Unfortunately there is no dearth of the friendlies in India (and in NRI community), the author of The Hindu article being one. The controversial newspaper continues to hold sway (terror) over IAS aspirants who perforce consume its outpourings in order to clear the coveted exam.
To people who can exercise their brains some points have become clear now:
1) Yavana-s have accepted by now that IE homeland is not in Europe (rules out Greeks, Nordics etc permanently).
2) The question is then between central/west Asia vs. South Asia (Afgan-India region).
Further, R1a is patrilinear, so this rules out migration: there was an invasion either from west Asia to south-east Asia or from the south-east Asia to the west Asia.
3) The R1a subgroups common to central and south-east Asia shows more diversity in south Asia. This is called the “founder’s effect” according to which the origin point of a species is likely in the place where it has a greater diversity. So, India satisfies this criterion.
From Yavanas’ point-of-view, therefore, finding a workaround answer to 3) is of utmost importance. One way is to suggest that multiple people came to India in multiple timelines. But this goes against economy of ideas. It is like saying someone spraying bullets on a crowd and only one person in the crowd getting hit by all the bullets.
4) There is also no explanation of presence of high levels of R1a in many tribes of India (which includes north-eastern and southern tribes of India); with continued focus on propaganda, there never will be.
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1. The contemporarily relevant and effective and real political aspect of the whole debate lies in the potential of and past use of the Aryan Invasion /Immigration Theory to justify the British (Modern European Nations') invasion of India and opposition to and ridiculing of the Indian Freedom Struggle or Indian National Movement on that basis. It also has connections with norh Indians and upper castes particularly Brahmins being picturized as the ancient invaders of India and other Indians being victims of that from ages.' "conviction" that AIT is baseless is rooted in these contemporary consequences'.
2. OIT is being brought in as alternative to AIT as an alternative to the AIT explanation to the linguistic data of 'IE family' of languages being found spoken across a wide area including India. A third/ alternative explanation , other than AIT and OIT is perhaps there in the mind of Sri Vishvas-ji. He is welcome to present the same.
3."We Hindus never invaded anyone" kind of statements come up in a different context than these language studies. It is in the context of comparing with the past imperialist attempts of global level invasions, some of them inspired by the intentions of spread of religion that people say that such invasions on such global scale, particularly those inspired by the intentions of spread of religion never originated from ancient India.
6. Sri Vishvas-ji is welcome to enlighten us about his stand regarding the issue , educating us about the pitfalls in the statements like those of Dean Muichael Anderson which is quoted in the immediately previous post to his within the context of the contemporary consequences of these theories.
Indian populations, although currently huge in number, were also founded by relatively small bands of individuals, the study suggests. Overall, the picture that emerges is of ancient genetic mixture, says Reich, followed by fragmentation into small, isolated ethnic groups, which were then kept distinct for thousands of years because of limited intermarriage — a practice also known as endogamy.
This genetic evidence refutes the claim that the Indian caste structure was a modern invention of British colonialism, the authors say. "This idea that caste is thousands of years old is a big deal," says Nicole Boivin, an archaeologist who studies South Asian prehistory at the University of Oxford, UK. "To say that endogamy goes back so far, and that genetics shows it, is going to be controversial to many anthropologists." Boivin fears that the study might be 'spun' by politicians seeking to maintain caste structures in India, and she calls on social scientists and geneticists to collaborate on such "highly politicized" issues."
Now, a team led by David Reich of the Broad Institute in Cambridge, Massachusetts, and Lalji Singh of the Centre for Cellular and Molecular Biology in Hyderabad, India, has probed more than 560,000 SNPs across the genomes of 132 Indian individuals from 25 diverse ethnic and tribal groups dotted all over India2.
“There are populations that have lived in the same town and same village for thousands of years without exchanging genes.”
The researchers showed that most Indian populations are genetic admixtures of two ancient, genetically divergent groups, which each contributed around 40-60% of the DNA to most present-day populations. One ancestral lineage — which is genetically similar to Middle Eastern, Central Asian and European populations — was higher in upper-caste individuals and speakers of Indo-European languages such as Hindi, the researchers found. The other lineage was not close to any group outside the subcontinent, and was most common in people indigenous to the Andaman Islands, a remote archipelago in the Bay of Bengal.
The researchers also found that Indian populations were much more
highly subdivided than European populations. But whereas European
ancestry is mostly carved up by geography, Indian segregation was driven
largely by caste. "There are populations that have lived in the same
town and same village for thousands of years without exchanging genes,"
says Reich.
Chakravarti notes that the study can't establish a rough date for when the ancient mixing between the two ancestral populations took place. "There are very curious features of the data that are hard to explain," he says, adding: "This is not the end of the story."
3. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3769933/
4. https://hms.harvard.edu/news/genetics-proves-indian-population-mixture-8-8-13
“Only a few thousand years ago, the Indian population structure was vastly different from today,” said co–senior author David Reich, professor of genetics at Harvard Medical School.
regards,
sathya
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Sri Vishvas-ji wants to see 2005 as outdated and wants to go with Balagangadhara Tilak, P V Kane etc.
What a sense of contemporaneity from the person seeing 'folly' in well meaning Indians not less scholarly than the 'top' in his eyes!
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The point of Genetics Prof. Anderson mentioned is about the accuracy in the time calculations of the occurrence of the past event that the present Genetics. If you have information about which 2005-2017 development in Genetics improved accuracy in this regard, please share it with the list.
> True, it's not deterministic - yet it is highly correlated, and that's sufficient.
- What is correlated with what?
The DNA of the persons and the languages they spoke and they have been speaking are highly correlated? How is the language data collected, documented and used for correlation in the project?
Speaking of obsolescence ,1. The word 'Aryan' used in the acronym AIT and used in the present news article is obsolete.
2. Invasion as a concept with regard to the IE speakers' movement from outside Indic subcontinent into India, is obsolete. It is now replaced with migration.
> what a thing to be proud of, and what a contrast with stories of raghu's digvijaya which included the huNa-s and persia!
true!since the stories of Raghu's digvijaya speak of an east to west movement and Sri Vasuki-ji wants to take pride in the Aryan invasion from west to east which is now believed by the 'top' not to have occurred at all as invasion but is believed to have occurred as 'migration' by the same 'top' ! What an upamaanauchitya! What a lakhya suited to the lakshaNa under discussion!
2017-06-20 1:38 GMT-07:00 Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com>:The point of Genetics Prof. Anderson mentioned is about the accuracy in the time calculations of the occurrence of the past event that the present Genetics. If you have information about which 2005-2017 development in Genetics improved accuracy in this regard, please share it with the list.I already did (if one cared to follow up on the pic I posted). Two things spring to mind:
* Availability of aDNA.
* Use of whole genome data rather than microsatellites and Y chromosome.Prof. Anderson at least humbly admits that he has not kept up with the field of genetics. Others should take a hint. Geneticists have themselves been warning so clearly for a while now:* First, a paper from 2006 is wildly out of date for this field. The methods used have been superseded. Instead of using one locus, the Y chromosome, and focusing on microsatellites (which have upsides and downsides), researchers now look at the whole genome. Probably the best paper to read on the latest results is Genetic Evidence for Recent Population Mixture in India. The authors date the admixture between two different lineages in the subcontinent to “1,900 to 4,200 years ago.” - Razib Khan* Today, Dr. Underhill says there is no comparison between the kind of data available in 2010 and now. “Then, it was like looking into a darkened room from the outside through a keyhole with a little torch in hand; you could see some corners but not all, and not the whole picture. With whole genome sequencing, we can now see nearly the entire room, in clearer light.” - the hindu article.
> True, it's not deterministic - yet it is highly correlated, and that's sufficient.- What is correlated with what?With each other.The DNA of the persons and the languages they spoke and they have been speaking are highly correlated? How is the language data collected, documented and used for correlation in the project?It's obvious isn't it? Take dominance of Turkish in Turkey, of Spanish in South and middle America, of English in North America, Australia and Africa, of Arabic in Egypt and North Africa, of Chinese in Tibet and the Uighur land, Japanese in Hokkaido, Russian in Eastern Siberia. They were all accompanied by fairly massive invasions and gene movement. Why - even Indic influence in South East Asia was accompanied by great population movement and domination (~5% of Cambodian ancestry seems to be Indian)
And I am not even mentioning the early domination of PIE descendents in Europe (Greek, Romance and Germanic languages vs Etruscan, Basque or Eteocretan).
2017-06-20 1:48 GMT-07:00 Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com>:Speaking of obsolescence ,1. The word 'Aryan' used in the acronym AIT and used in the present news article is obsolete.I'll leave this for now :-)2. Invasion as a concept with regard to the IE speakers' movement from outside Indic subcontinent into India, is obsolete. It is now replaced with migration.
One can continue fantasizing - "migration" is mostly a euphemism for "invasion" and "dominance" (probably a concession given absence of hard archaeological evidence of battles). PIE speakers did not come to dominate lands from Ireland (note connection with "Arya") to India and even further east without battles.2017-06-20 2:00 GMT-07:00 Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com>:> what a thing to be proud of, and what a contrast with stories of raghu's digvijaya which included the huNa-s and persia!true!since the stories of Raghu's digvijaya speak of an east to west movement and Sri Vasuki-ji wants to take pride in the Aryan invasion from west to east which is now believed by the 'top' not to have occurred at all as invasion but is believed to have occurred as 'migration' by the same 'top' ! What an upamaanauchitya! What a lakhya suited to the lakshaNa under discussion!
This fixation on direction funny. As admirers of dasharatha, we are happy to take pride in conquests in all 10 directions. And if you want for some reason to insist on Eastward invasion, go ahead and take Chola raids on shrIvijaya and vijayanagaran raids on Burma. The contrast with the "oh we don't invade, we're so noble" remains. PS: it is shrI vishvAsa btw (vAsuki is a patronymic.)
----
Vishvas /विश्वासः
Nagraj-ji,
What Vasuki has presented here (going by the snippet he shared) is very interesting – indeed something that no Yavana scholar has professed to date – yet is the only possible scenario if AIT were to be really true.
I think this thesis should be discussed more freely on BVP (since Yavana-s have not shown the requisite moral/ intellectual honesty).
I think the propounder should come on BVP and shed lights on it. Personally I have clarity on my own stand (and know where someone may go wrong) stated earlier in this thread, but I am sure the proposed Iranian origins (near but not quite the Indo-Afgan region) of this Dharmika branch could be of some interest to someone like Dr N R Joshi.
Thanks
KT
Dear friends,
Good point Bijoy Misraji. Moreover migration in itself proves nothing vis a vis the vedic language. If for a minute we grant that the orign of the Vedic language is outside India is it not the responsibility of those propounding the theory to tell why the vedic language became extinct in the land of its origin. This reminds me of Ptolmey who not being in a position to conceive of a rotating earth made the whole sky revolve round the earth. According to our tradition words are said to be नित्य this goes with the rider that the permanence is in the land of their origin. In addition many of the letters of the Vedic language are not to be seen elsewhere outside India on the other hand all the letters and many words are used in Modern Indian Languages. Is it not a mystery that Sanskrit Pandits, Vidvans and scholars fall such an easy prey to the ideas proposed by vested interests in the West just because there are references to descriptions of foreign lands in the scriptures. What could be more natural than India being the birth place or orign of the Vedas.
Achyut Karve.
I do not know whether we can take Raghu's digvijaya as a historical record.
However, Aryan migration, whether from India or towards India cannot be refuted because Indo-Aryan (IA) linguistic evidence is available in three regions remotely located from each other: (1) India (Vedic IA), (2) Iran (Avestan IA), and (3) Syria (Mitanni IA). The last evidence is the oldest (1400BC) concrete evidence. Interestingly, according to linguistic experts the Vedic and Mitanni IA which are separated from each other by a longer physical distance are closer to each other linguistically than Avestan IA.
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Moreover migration in itself proves nothing vis a vis the vedic language. If for a minute we grant that the orign of the Vedic language is outside India is it not the responsibility of those propounding the theory to tell why the vedic language became extinct in the land of its origin.
To the question how Vedic Religion is not there in Iran, Iraq and other places now is because it was driven out like Parsi religion from Persia. OR Parsi religion could have displaced Vedic religion there. I think study of Parsi religion history is required to fully understand what happened.
This reminds me of Ptolmey who not being in a position to conceive of a rotating earth made the whole sky revolve round the earth.
Borrowings are a different story than direct genetic linguistic relation. Mitannni (more precisely Hittite ) language and Avestan are considered to have a direct genetic relation with the Vedic in as much as all the three are considered to be descendants of proto-Indo-European.Finno-Ugric is a different language family without any genetic relation with the Vedic or Avstan or Mitanni (Hittite).
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becauseIndo-Aryan (IA) linguistic evidence is available in three regions remotely located from each otherFinno-Ugric's borrowings have no role to play.
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A related question, Sri Achyut Karve-ji, is why the the speakers of proto-Indo Iranian who after migrating to India and after their language evolved into Vedic started all of a sudden composing hymns whilethey wrote only prose during their life in Syria. In prehistoric studies usual pattern is that musical compositions precede discursive prose writings. But in this case, interestingly, as per AIT, during their life in Syria the ancestors of the Vedic people write discursive prose about how to raise, maintain horses and after they migrate to a new land India, they forget prose writing and start composing musical hymns.
Then borrowings of English words into Telugu, Kannada etc. should be part of the theory genetic connection between English and Telugu and Kannada.
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As per the current AIT narrative the speakers of the proto-Indo-Iranian who were the Mitanni, were the ones who migrated to India.If they were the cousin branch and were not the 'invaders' , 'migrants' , who were the 'invaders' , 'migrants' , who later started composing hymns?
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For every point that anyone under the sun makes with regard to AIT /OIT the answer is from the gospel whose details are in an older post of BVP here
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Ad Hominem means attacking the person. Revealing the personal information that is kept hidden by the author of the source is not called Ad Hominem.
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Gospel is a metaphor indicating that the quoting. person repeatedly brings the same source as answer to all points
The time period under question is not the 'Mahabharata time'. or Ikshvaku time etc.
...
Only if these Veerabhoktas of India, coming from outside India, belong to a date earlier than the the date given by the 'top' to the earliest Vedic 'compositions, it becomes part of AIT debate.
Otherwise, these Veerabhoktas should be considered as the Bhoktas of the Vasundharaa already having the Vedas prior to their arrival.
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vedic composition (which anyway is likely to have started in distant lands)?'top' does not agree.
AIT theorists do not consider any 'Invasion' (as per their old model) or 'migration' (as per their current model) later to their date of composition of earliest Veda, as part of AIT.
The AIT theorists try to connect the Mitanni date and the date given by them to the earliest Vedic 'compositions' through migration now and invasion previously.
Let me again alert.By borrowing third party sources and asserting does not make research.
If any of you has done some independent work or has created a full paper,you should post.
Of course, we are free to delete, which I did.
>I am sorry, who is this 'top'.The 'top' are the AIT theorists and their Geneticist supporters.
>whose theory is exactly as you (mis?)state---- You may give the right statement of the theory from the AIT theorists other than your previous source that proves my"AIT theorists do not consider any 'Invasion' (as per their old model) or 'migration' (as per their current model) later to their date of composition of earliest Veda, as part of AIT. "as a misstatement .
>despite being shown otherwise.Quoting from the same blog not belonging to the professional discipline dealing with the issue is not any showing.
2017-06-19 22:26 GMT-07:00 Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com>:1. The contemporarily relevant and effective and real political aspect of the whole debate lies in the potential of and past use of the Aryan Invasion /Immigration Theory to justify the British (Modern European Nations') invasion of India and opposition to and ridiculing of the Indian Freedom Struggle or Indian National Movement on that basis. It also has connections with norh Indians and upper castes particularly Brahmins being picturized as the ancient invaders of India and other Indians being victims of that from ages.' "conviction" that AIT is baseless is rooted in these contemporary consequences'.Yes, I agree. But this reaction is based in folly and a sad sign of our current intellectual state. One can quite easily be a abhimAni hindu, accept evidence in favor of AIT and repudiate enemy narratives (just think of the great patriot bAlagangAdhara TiLak). We don't even need to be apologetic about any Aryan Invasion, dominance and consolidation (quite the opposite - we can derive pride in it and explore exactly why such stunning success came to pass) - all we have to do is reject the fake equivalence of Aryan invasion with the genocidal invasions of the mlecCha-s in India, the America-s and Australia (which is exactly what PV kANe did - never spilt any ink propping OIT up AFAIK).Furthermore, वीरभोग्या वसुन्धरा - nature does not care for moral justifications like "oh we're unjust victims of atrocious foreign dominance. we never did such a thing to others". That's so defeatist and pitiable (besides being false). Who are we trying to convince? Does the Pakistani or Chinese nationalist waste any breath justifying his aggression or defense on some inane theory of moral superiority?
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With the hope that the list by now realized who is leading the list to morally unscrupulous invasionism and who is trying to keep the insider's view of the Vedas and the Vedic culture tuned to academic studies, I withdraw from this rantful conversation that does not spare even respectful elders and calls them to be living in fantasy universe and so on.
Unfortunately, his anonymity and some incredulous claims on the his MT blog like
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