Moderator's apologies to Smt Rupa Bhaty-ji

[Nagaraj Paturi]

I received the following message from a former member of BVP that made me feel painfully guilty. I offer my sincere apologies as the moderator of the group to Dr Rupa Bhaty-ji.

Namaste Sri Nagaraj-ji

I have seen some recent posts on BVP. I am writing to express my deep pain and disappointment with the fact that highly unparliamentary words like "pissing contest" are being used on BVP, that too in a discussion thread where a woman scholar is one of the participants. When I search on google for the meaning of these words, I see that it is classified as "vulgar slang". 

Very sorry to hear such words. In my opinion, respect for women is non-negotiable in Indian culture. Even though I am not party to that discussion, as a former member of BVP, I would like to convey my sincere apologies to Sri Rupa Bhaty ji. 

Please understand that I am not holding the moderators of BVP responsible for this. I am only writing this to express my pain.

Sincerely Yours

XXXXX

----------------------------------------------------------

[Govind Kashyap]

By openly publishing the honest criticism that he has received from a venerable member, and by apologizing unreservedly to the lady member, Dr Nagaraj Paturi has shown that ego-less adherence to truth in one's words and deeds, regardless of the cost/implications, is the hallmark of the true bhAratIya vidwAn. 

I have followed this august forum for many years. I have noticed the yeoman service that Dr Nagaraj Paturi is rendering to the cause of Indic knowledge and Bharatiya heritage by,  among other things, selflessly moderating this list. I convey my appreciation of his sincerity and honesty.

[Ramesh Rao]

Really, Nagaraj ji?

"A pissing contest" is basically a term that is very commonly used in ordinary commentary/communication -- at least here in the US -- to characterize something small boys/adolescents would participate in to claim who is better, more powerful.

There is nothing sexist or "dirty" in the term except maybe to those who are hearing/reading it for the first time!

One can understand that people on this list come from a variety of backgrounds -- from the very traditional to the very Western/anglicized/modern -- from those who have not had experience in the use of modern English (and it is not just American/Western, but also Indian) to those who are very familiar with it: the shock value about the use of such English idioms depends on a person's familiarity with the language.

When we have a range of people from a variety of backgrounds on the list there are sure to be differences, sometimes very large differences in our perception of language use and the appropriateness of the language used.

That said, the tenor of the exchange between people who staunchly defend older dates of the Ramayana/Mahabharata and those who challenge those dates is always fraught because it seems that people refuse to follow the basic rules of argument and scholarly debate: providing evidence for the claims they make. A refusal to engage with or respond to those who raise questions about the nature and quality of the evidence presented leads to unnecessary standoffs and to blaming and shaming. And when spats and arguments are carried over from social media sites about these matters then what we get here are truncated pieces of the back and forth elsewhere, which the person who was referring to those issues called a "pissing contest" -- which is indeed an apt term -- for those who, again, are familiar with modern idioms/usage.

As long as people refuse to engage in scholarly debate here, and professionally deal with criticism of their theses, then what we will see, as we have seen here a few times already, is a breakdown in communication. 

It is imperative that in the pursuit of knowledge we keep our egos aside as much as possible and simply deal with the content of the disagreements, because the style of communication will be different given the nature of the people gathered here. 

Unless, of course, we lay down very clear rules of engagement about the kind of language we can use -- in English, Kannada, Sanskrit, Hindi, et al -- which is both a difficult proposition if not an impossible task, and which is difficult to enforce.

I keep wondering why we Indians are such a prickly and quarrelsome lot when we say from the other side of our mouths that we are a dharmic lot.

We live in an interesting world!

With regards,

Ramesh Rao

 

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[Shashi Joshi]

Namaste Paturiji and all the concerned members,

'You' in this mail is used as a generic you, and not anyone in particular.

I once again repeat - people read and (mis)understand based on their own level and mood, and may miss the original intent. Both parties are at fault for this.

Even though the topic is closed, both literally and in my mind as well, since the post was directed towards me, I think I should respond. I will do so, trying to keep it to a minimum.

I apologise to the elders worthy of respect who are also members in this group, for anything they might find offensive.

And those who 'know it all', may simply skip this mail, since I can not add anything to their vast knowledge base.

I don't intend to endorse disrespectful language, I have not been disrespectful to anyone, critical maybe. I don't intend to respond on this topic further.

I may not have a PhD in Sanskrit, but that is not a qualification for being cultured or sensitive.

It is easy to jump on the bashing-wagon, but I hope some people see it the way it was meant. Don't just go for the word, go for its intent and meaning and the context. And please read fully before commenting.

1. I sent private mail to her right after her first objection, and clarified the misunderstanding. So dharmAdhyakSha-s may now breathe.

2. I did not refer to her in my reply.
When you respond to a thread, you have to respond to some post within the thread. I responded to the last one, which happened to be hers. If someone cares to see my post, I had removed her message, a clear indication that I am not responding to her per se, but to the thread. This may be a new thing to understand for those who grew up primarily in the paper world.

3. Unparliamentary language.

"highly unparliamentary words like "pissing contest" are being used on BVP, that too in a discussion thread where a woman scholar is one of the participants"

First of all, the differentiation of man and woman shows that we somehow consider them less. Ladies like Sita and Draupadi have not been offended by language, if used suitable to the context.

This is a natural act, even performed publicly in many parts.
Highly unparliamentary is subjective.
My usage was based on context. 

The thread was not a sacred thread on spirituality or such nature.

This was nothing compared to the level of communication that has happened in the group in some threads. No need to keep digging those out, those who know, know.

No one is under-age here, and the phrase 'pissing contest' is vulgar slang. I said so 'in modern lingo'.

Vulgar is not such a bad word! It is not abusive, it is just not cultured enough.

Here is the definition of vulgar:

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/vulgar

 

vulgar adjective (NOT SUITABLE)

 

not suitable, simple, dignified or beautiful; not in the style preferred by the upper classes of society:

A. a vulgar patterned shirt

B. Isn't it rather vulgar to talk about how much money you earn?

C. I've no idea how much the clothes cost because there was nothing so vulgar as a price tag in evidence.

"not in the style preferred by the upper classes of society" - the group has been losing some of its upper-classiness in the past. I wanted to point out the undignified (subjective) way the thread(s) evolve lately on BVP.

4. Usage in Sanskrit literature.
We seem to have become such a soft, removed-from-reality society, that we don't realize that based on context, Sanskrit literature has such usage. I quote only a few.
One doesn't have to be super sensitive or hypocritical.

Hitopadesh:

There is an apparently respectable book with an unparliamentary commentary name.

And for the curious, some more maybe found here:
https://medium.com/messages-from-spirit/swearing-in-sanskrit-e0856d01f998

Thanks,

~ Shashi

[Shashi Joshi]

Thank you, Ramesh ji.

What people should (also) focus on is not just the words, but how they are used to mean.

One can insult using the sweetest of parliamentary words.

Would that be acceptable?

Thanks,

~ Shashi

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Sri Shashi Kiran-ji,

Your expression was used in a counterproductive way is what is getting established by what is happening as a consequence to it. 

You wanted to point out the wrong in the heated nature of the debates and the bitterness in them. 

But the expression you used to communicate that , as you can see is leading to what you wanted not to happen. 

Sri Ramesh Rao ji,

Communicators need to keep the receiver's sensitivities and sensibilities in mind while communicating. 

Some expressions could be universally accepted as bad, some universally as good. Some lie in the grey area because of the cultural contexts varying from place to place. 

Wise communicators should avoid these grey area usages because of the sensitivities that may come into play without our knowledge. 

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--

Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

Director, Indic Academy

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS Kavikulaguru Kalidasa Sanskrit University, Ramtek, Maharashtra

BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru.

Member, Advisory Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthanam, Bengaluru

BoS Rashtram School of Public Leadership

Editor-in-Chief, International Journal of Studies in Public Leadership

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies, 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education, 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

 

 

[Raja Roy]

Dear Prof. Nagaraj,

Sorry to nitpick, but you addressed Ms. Bhaty as Dr. Rupa Bhaty. Is she a medical doctor or has she earned a Ph.D.? I am not aware of it, so asking out of curiosity, especially as she has been deliberately addressing me as "Mister". I have earned Ph.D. from The Ohio State University in Materials Science and engineering.

Best regards,

Raja

On Fri, Sep 17, 2021 at 10:56 PM Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Nagaraj Paturi]

I do not know about that. 

I saw Dr used by someone in some post. I do not have to check. I thought it does not hurt to say the same. If she is not a Dr of any kind, so be it. 

I will certainly be careful in addressing you or mentioning you as Dr. Thanks for the alert. 

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

correction :

I do not have time to check.

not 

I do not have to check

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[Raja Roy]

Dear Prof. Nagaraj,

Sorry to respond again, but I have the impression that you know the qualifications of Ms.Rupa Bhaty and Mr. Nilesh Oak. Are you going to address Mr. Oak as Prof. Oak even when I have brought to the attention of this forum that INADS is not an accredited institute/university, does not offer a degree and hence has no authority to appoint anyone as Adjunct Professor?

Best regards,

Raja

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

You definitely have a right to your impression, Dr Roy.  I addressed/mentioned Smt Rupa-ji multiple timeswithout a Dr on this forum. Sorry if my one time usage of Dr in front of her name offended you. 

Fact of the matter Dr Roy, is that I never knew Smt Rupa-ji earlier to her applying for our conference. Even now, I do not have any acquaintance with her beyond her posts here. 

Regarding Sri Nilesh Oak, I can say that I have a greater acquaintance, met him during his talks at CVV, as I was parallelly giving talks in the same place and so on. But never paid attention to his degrees or positions. 

As a linguist I did discvuss his family name with him. 

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