'Pha'or 'Fa
Venkatesh Murthy
उज्ज्वल राजपूत
फ़-fa यथा हिन्दीभाषायां फ़ूल इत्यस्मिन्।
dhaval patel
What you mean by Pha and Fa depends on transliteration scheme you are using. Asking pronoinciation question via text is ambiguous at the best. An audio clip of both sounds would be very helpful.
dhaval patel
For Sanskrit native words, it is always फ - ओष्ठ्यवर्णः ।
The other is दन्त्योष्ठ्यवर्णः, influenced by Persian / Arabic kind.
Shrivathsa B
pha is an oShThya and has to be pronounced as pha.
fa is dantoShThya and hence cannot represent फ.
What you mean by Pha and Fa depends on transliteration scheme you are using. Asking pronoinciation question via text is ambiguous at the best. An audio clip of both sounds would be very helpful.
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Nagaraj Paturi
उज्ज्वल राजपूत
Dr. P. Ramanujan
On August 28, 2016 at 9:15 AM "उज्ज्वल राजपूत" <ujjwal....@gmail.com> wrote:
phalah?
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Subrahmanyam Korada
Professor of Sanskrit, CALTS,
University of Hyderabad,
Ph:09866110741(M),91-40-23010741(R),040-23133660(O)
बहुव्रीहौ युज्यते । यथा (सूत्रविचारः) ब्रह्मप्राप्तिफलः ।रामानुजः
On August 28, 2016 at 9:15 AM "उज्ज्वल राजपूत" <ujjwal....@gmail.com> wrote:
phalah?
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V N Jha
Former Director, Centre of Advanced Study in Sanskrit, University of Pune, Pune-411007, India.
Residence
C-3, 402 Kunal Icon, Pimple Saudagar, Pune-411027
Phone; 91-20-27201458(R)
Mobile : 09890215441
V N Jha
Nagaraj Paturi
बहुव्रीहौ युज्यते । यथा (सूत्रविचारः) ब्रह्मप्राप्तिफलः ।रामानुजः
On August 28, 2016 at 9:15 AM "उज्ज्वल राजपूत" <ujjwal....@gmail.com> wrote:
phalah?
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krishnaprasad g
Pha is correct
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BVKSastry(Gmail)
Namaste
Two questions connecting all issues by Dhaval Patel ji here - < Asking Pronunciation Question via a Text> and < Pha and Fa depends on transliteration scheme> and < फ - ओष्ठ्यवर्णः । The other is दन्त्योष्ठ्यवर्णः, influenced by Persian / Arabic kind>
Question 1: What characterizes the filtering criterion to separate a < SANSKRIT NATIVE WORD> ?
Question 2: How and using what rule guidance does one ‘ identify - purify /rectify an < influenced – infected- inflected> Sanskrit Word ?
Rules with Illustrations please to help understanding.
(P.S. I could articulate this same question differently as ‘What criterion would use to distinguish words across documents of : paurusheya and Apaurusheya / Daivee and Maanushee / South Indian and North Indian Vedic pronunciation / Cross-veda same text with Svara variance / Samskrutham and Apabhramsha , words as given OR scripted in the given manuscript. But then it would be triggering too much of sensitivity !
When majority of Computational Sanskrit Linguistics have preferred to stand by Roman Anglical Character based Transliteration Schema ( which is not even IPA upgraded ) to Voice the Given Sanskrit Text . And When majority of ‘Samskruth research and Teaching has violated the primary standard of ‘ Shishta –Shuddha –PaaTha’ - from ‘Patanjali’ on How to Study and Teach Samskrutham, the question assumes a greater relevance.)
There needs to be a little deeper thinking and approach to address the issue.
Regards
BVK Sastry
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BVKSastry(Gmail)
Namaste
Need to help to understand < ब्रह्मप्राप्तिफलः > and its connection to the previous post by Dhaval Patel ji , reading < For Sanskrit native words, it is always फ - ओष्ठ्यवर्णः । The other is दन्त्योष्ठ्यवर्णः, influenced by Persian / Arabic kind.>
Did Arabic language borrow the Vedic rule from the context of < बहुव्रीहौ युज्यते । यथा (सूत्रविचारः) >
OR
Did the later Veda –Trainers adapt the pronunciation from < Persian/Arabic Kind> ?
Reason for the question: The ‘ Phala’ can be ‘ Transcendental –A-Poorva’; but the uccharana is right here and ‘ human effort’.
Regards
BVK Sastry
V Subrahmanian
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dhaval patel
My attempt at answer is as follows
> Question 1: What characterizes the filtering criterion to separate a < SANSKRIT NATIVE WORD> ?
>
Something which is not mentioned in kozas or traditional literature may be treated as non native. Vice versa fo native.
> Question 2: How and using what rule guidance does one ‘ identify - purify /rectify an < influenced – infected- inflected> Sanskrit Word ?
>
There are no influenced Sanskrit words. Speaker may be influenced. Grammar and shiksha text seem to be clear about फ being ओष्ठ्य. There is no need to pronounce any Sanskrit word with फ as दन्त्योष्ठ्य.
When you are pronouncing foreign words in Sanskrit like proper noun e.g. Faraah Khan, you use the pronounciation system of that language as far as possible. There is no need to Sanskritize it.
BVKSastry(Gmail)
Namaste
On < the impact of English on Indian vernaculars. Children taught through English medium are habituated now to commit this mistake. Whenever such students read vernacular texts they read like that. This habit is almost naturalised. >
Question: IS there a MANUAL and TRAINING SYSTEM in VOGUE - providing STANDARD OF VOICE TRAINING for SAMSKRUTHAM ? Any School or Gurukul teaching this way the START UP (SIMPLIFIED ? ) SAMSKRUTHAM ? – In Regional Languages or Anglicized Media OR even the VEDIC GURUKULS ? ( to invoke the Ramayana Sampradaya : konvasmin Saampratam loke… )
IF we have where are they ? If not when- where- how- why did we loose this ? in Post Patanjali, period which said : ‘ Shabdaah .. Shuddhah … updaishyante..Pathyante’ )
Should not such Training be a Unified Approach for VOICING as well as LISTENING –SOUND MEMORY COMPARISON – RECALL>
And how should a nirukta class be designed to be sensitive to voiced input –analysis, if the current Samskruth Text Reading is so deviant and defective ?
Regards
BVK Sastry
phalah?
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Prof. V N Jha,
Former Director, Centre of Advanced Study in Sanskrit, University of Pune, Pune-411007, India.
Residence
C-3, 402 Kunal Icon, Pimple Saudagar, Pune-411027
Phone; 91-20-27201458(R)
Mobile : 09890215441
--
Prof. V N Jha,
Former Director, Centre of Advanced Study in Sanskrit, University of Pune, Pune-411007, India.
Residence
C-3, 402 Kunal Icon, Pimple Saudagar, Pune-411027
Phone; 91-20-27201458(R)
Mobile : 09890215441
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Dr. P. Ramanujan
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BVKSastry(Gmail)
Namaste
I am not able to understand the connection and the explanation.
Did you mean that < neuter gender of the pratipadika – Phalam> can become < masculine ending when it is a part of Bahuvreehi samaasa - as ब्रह्मप्राप्तिफलः> ? And it had nothing to do with the < Phala = Benefit of action as in usages : karma-phala-samyogah as in Gita 5-14: < na kartrtvam na karmani lokasya srjati prabhuh na karma-phala-samyogam svabhavas tu pravartate.>
Was the primary question about the gender of the word ( –stand alone and in samaasa ) or about the articulation of the first varna in the word ? Why did the Persian/ Arabic influence on uccharanam come in between ?
I seem to have misunderstood your bringing in the word < ब्रह्मप्राप्तिफलः > as < Articulation shift connected with the goal( Phala-praapti) as Brahma-Prapti> rather than limiting it to the gender issue under the Sutra. Am I right ?
BVKSastry(Gmail)
Namaste
Before responding further on your post below, I seek additional clarifications from you.
From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of dhaval patel
Sent: Thursday, 01 September, 2016 2:22 AM
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Re: 'Pha'or 'Fa
My attempt at answer is as follows
> Question 1: What characterizes the filtering criterion to separate a < SANSKRIT NATIVE WORD> ?
>
Something which is not mentioned in kozas or traditional literature may be treated as non native. Vice versa fo native.
^^^^^^
BVK Sastry (on not mentioned ) : The argument does not appear to be a necessary and sufficient criterion. Where does one draw a time line for ‘ kozas’ ? Compared to Amara kosha, later Kozas – and more so Monier Williams Sanskrit Dictionary contains newer words. The word ‘Sanganaka’, Doora-darshanam’ of previous century , would not appear in earlier kozas or traditional literature. And for this reason, should they be run out ? How many new words are <Sanskritized> and < formed> in Samskrutha- Doordarshan news broad cast ? And how are they covering the ‘ native’ language words ? Would one then classify Samskruth as a < Language of Closed Vocabulary> ? Dead because it cannot ‘Generate’ sensitive and relevant new social words – an argument used by Sheldon Pollock ?
Similarly for the criterion of ‘ traditional literature’ ? Would the latest Samskrutha kavyas which received the national award be considered as ‘ traditional literature’ by a time line or content ? What is the criterion to fix the stamp of ‘Tradition – Traditional – Traditional literature’?
***********
> Question 2: How and using what rule guidance does one ‘ identify - purify /rectify an < influenced – infected- inflected> Sanskrit Word ?
> There are no influenced Sanskrit words. Speaker may be influenced. Grammar and shiksha text seem to be clear about फ being ओष्ठ्य. There is no need to pronounce any Sanskrit word with फ as दन्त्योष्ठ्य.
When you are pronouncing foreign words in Sanskrit like proper noun e.g. Faraah Khan, you use the pronounciation system of that language as far as possible. There is no need to Sanskritize it.
^^^^^^
BVK Sastry (on no influenced Sanskrit words ? ) : Invoking Grammar and Shikshaa texts as Standards needs a careful consideration and qualifying remark. So is the point of < Foreign words – pronunciation-Sanskritizing >.
I do not see a ‘ Samskrutham - Shikshaa Traditional continuity ’ as a live –flowing standard ! even in the heartland of veda education – be it Ahmedabad , Hyderabad or Karnataka. Some parts of Kerala seem to be using it for their own Veda –Shaakhas. Training to read ‘Bhagavatam- Purana Katha ’ is NOT the same as training to ‘Recite Vedas with Purity of Voice and Purpose’.
Unless one is confusing and mistaking the < listen –repeat :: Uccharana –Anoocchaarana sampradaya of Vedas in Gurukul> as < Shikshaa Proper Training>. It is NOT. Imitation and repetition of ‘ as heard ( = Shrutasya uccharanam) is NOT ‘VOICE –CULTURING and TRAINING ( = Varna –Ucchaarana SAMSKAARA) which meets the Taittiriya Upanishad criterion of Training for proper articulation of <Varna –swara-maatraa –bala –saama –santaana >. There are special texts called ‘Veda-Lakshanam’ to deal with this issue and scholars like Dr. P.Ramaujam have spoken of this at different occasions. Training students on this part is a different pedagogy and life time work than creating an ‘ awareness of existence of such a tradition’.
In my understanding this traditional pedagogy of ‘ Veda-Lakshanam/ Mantra-Brahmana shikshana Paddhati / Vak-Yoga Sampradaya ‘ of Yoga-Samskrutham Training = Vedanga Shikshna Paddhati’ went underground at least three centuries ago in India. What is still in ‘ ICU –COMA state practice in Veda-Guru kulas is ‘ use of ‘BHASHAANGA SHIKSHANA for VEDANGA –CHANDAS SHIKSHANA’. This is technically falling out of compliance with the Vedic Standards of pronunciation.
Shikshaa is used for ‘Bhashaa’ Part of Samskrutham; And PRATISHAAKHYAM is SPECIAL ADVANCED SHIKSHAA for CHANDAS part of SAMSKRUTHAM. The ‘SHIKSHAA’ training system of ‘BHASHAA and CHANDAS’ parts of PANINIYA-SAMSKRUTHAM got corrupted by the ‘DESI –Language Phonetics ( = Praakrutham, Dramidam(= Tamil) , Apabhramsha, Mleccha) in stages and phases first; and then with Anglicized Phonetics in the later period’. First one was National level dismembering and dys-functionality; Second was International mal-functionality .
The combined power of both these dysfunctionality and malfunctioning distortions are impacting the ‘ VEDA – SHABDA –Shuddha UCCHARANA = True ‘Mantra’-Pronunciation of the Traditional (Vedic /Samskruth) Word’. Obvious consequence of this, being ‘ Bad –pronunciation leads to Bad and Inaccurate rule invoking and processing diagnostics ( The hall mark of Sanskrit Computational Linguistics studies) and leads to complex challenges of < filtering criterion for Sanskrit Words> : A standard used by Indology ( Swadesi as well as Videshi Teams) to their preferred advantages in Battle: Sanskrit.
When both warring teams violate the standard norms like the ‘ enforcement of nocturnal war ( = raatri-yuddha) ’ in Mahabharata, the call of Dharma-Standards Audit become very difficult. Especially when one side invokes the < Grammar and shiksha texts > as referendum.
Yes, it is a sad state of in-house affair; But I would be totally open for correction if I am wrong on any statement above.
Regards
BVK Sastry
***********