दीर्घ instead of गुरु
Prakash Raj Pandey
Please listen this piece of Krishna-stuti --
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/MeAHyxjhubo
I request you to suggest ways so that I can improve my future recitations.
Best regards,
Prakash Raj Pandey
Mahamaho. Subrahmanyam Korada
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Bijoy Misra
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BVK Sastry (G-S-Pop)
Namaste
Sharing my personal views ( for whatever it may be worth) on this thread :
The inputs in the dialogue needs an interconnecting thread and goal, which Bijoy Misra ji has pointed with total clarity aimed to explore ‘VARNA’ – Neurological Modelling and Language Memory Basis.
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1. Opening question by <..reciter pronounces .. मूक्तावलि for मुक्तावलि, .. and I myself make such mistakes often. .. suggest ways to improve my future recitations. … Prakash Raj Pandey >
BVK Sastry (1) : The post covers two specifics: A: Pronunciation Training B. What needs to be the standards – Why? – How Filter out ?
(A: )Relates to ‘First -Training to ARTICULATE the SCRIPTED TEXT / HEARD VOICE’. The Human Factors and COMPLEX ‘GURU KUL ECO SYSTEM .
Technically SYSTEM FAILURE TO BUILD ‘SAMSKRUTHAM (BHASHAA and CHANDAS) on the FOUNDATION OF ‘SHIKSHAA’ before VYAKARANA.
This Strategic - Pedagogic break down needs to be addressed with the question: How are our ‘SANSKRIT (SOCIAL –SCHOOL) Education training
Geared to BUILD THE ANCHOR OF ‘SAMSKRUTH- PRONUNCIATION- (Language (Social) and Advanced VEDIC RECITATION)’ of SAME TEXT –
SAME LANGAUGE- GRAMMAR - ACROSS DEMOGRAPHIES AND CULTURAL – USAGE CONTEXTS. Be it Kalidasa, Panchatantra, Vedic Text.
The ‘SAME’ PRUSUHA SUKTA’ (Rig Veda X.90)/ Valmiki Ramayana / Bhaagavatam / Gita - recited across the land scape of India across different demographics and usage contexts does not ‘LISTEN- SOUND THE SAME’?!
The genre of ‘ TRADITIONALLY TRAINED EXPERTS-CUM- PRACTITIONERS’ seem to assess the situation differently from the SCIENTISTS and SOCIAL SANSKRIT PROMOTERS / COMPUTATIONAL SANSKRIT LINGUISTIS MODELLING SANSKRIT LIKE ENGLISH IN TOKENIZATION framework.
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2. Response by Prof. Korada ji covers how the issues is addressed in tradition on ‘Hrasva (Svara) - Deergha (Svara)' by Context.
BVK Sastry (2) : <.. Reciter Pronunciation of 'Short- Long- Accented (Raise or lowered)' is user intentional and contextual. Different Traditional Texts deal this issue in different discipline specific contexts. Different Cultural Linguistic overlaps cause different experience. While Grammar uses 'One अ-कार ' - as indivisible ' Maatraa' unit, there is a mode of teaching < अर्धमेकारमर्धमोकारं चाधीयते .. पार्षदकृतिरेषा तत्रभवताम् । नैव हि लोके नान्यस्मिन् वेदे अर्ध एकारः अर्ध ओकारो’स्ति । कैयटः - पार्षदकृतिरिति । गीतिवशात् तथोच्चारणमित्यर्थः । >
It appears much of Current Anglicized / Local Prakrutized/ (- Hindiized )- Vedic Studies (?) understanding and use of ‘Samskruth Documents’ for Translation- Analytics violate the traditional guidance from 'Jaimini' - on How to engage with the given 'Mantra' by 'Meaning (यत्रार्थवशेन पादव्यवस्था) and Structural Units of quartets (Paada- यत्र पादकृता व्यवस्था) and by Articulation ( गीतिषु सामाख्या - विशिष्टा काचिद्गीतिः सामेत्युच्यते)
It also appears that when ' Samskruth Language Document Data' is taken for Scientific analysis, the ' CONTEXT' of 'DATA' - has been fuzzy by factors of (i) Loss of 'Shaastra-Technicality (ii) USAGE context as 'ART- Social conversation- Ritual (iii) Overlay of Non-Samskrutham Language Models using ' Basic Human Brain- Neurological Modelling' - a 'CONTEXT AGNOSTIC' scenario.
This part is NOT addressed in 'Shaastra' as ' desired by Modern Material Science'.
The ‘Hrasva (Svara) - Deergha (Svara)' by Context - requisite analysis is covered in a plethora of disciplines contextually by 'Customizing 'Shikshaa' Shaastra for Mystic Mantra (Veda), Shaastra, Samgeetha, Sahitya, Chandas using different technical terms (Paribhashaa).
The term 'Hrasva (Svara) - Deergha (Svara) ' carry different connotation in Vyakarana, Chandas, Samgeetha and Veda.
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3. Asking by Prof. Bijoy Misra ji : < Prof Korada and friends, From the neurological modelling point of view, we don't find any scientific reasoning for ह्रस्व and दीर्घ timings. They appear more cultural than biological, they possibly have taken root from the mathematics of beats. Best regards >
BVK Sastry (3) : Neurological functionality is a systemic biological capability. In this case, the Human structural- Architectural- Archetypal ability covering ‘ Mind-Brain- Conscious Interfacing by CONTEXT’.
The ‘Charge’ is a Natural State, Primarily a ‘STATE’. The ‘Scientist – Analyst’ marks the ‘Charge’ Depending on the CONTEXT, as ‘ Positive-Negative ( Polarity) to Study - Explain- the Phenomenon and Suggest how to build useful applications.
Like this, Panini ‘Shiva sutra – Varna- Aksara Samaamnaaya’ ( Vyakarana Base as Vedanga) is a Vision of ‘ Natural STATE of Mind-Brain Interfacing’, an extension of What is Given in ‘Shikshaa- Vedanga’ and linked to ‘Chandas’ Structural expansion beyond ‘Metrical Rhythms’.
Therefore, a Data pool of ‘How Shiva Sutras’ are recited by Humans may help to arrive at the Scientific reasoning on < VARNA (Base) from which we get 'Hrasva (Svara) - Deergha (Svara) ' divisions by ‘Quantum containers in TIME (= Maa-Traa- Kaala).
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Regards
BVK Sastry
Bijoy Misra
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BVK Sastry (G-S-Pop)
Namaste Misra ji
1. Thanks for the clarification and the work ahead and need to understand ‘Nature of Language- Elements and their Classifications- Processes- Properties for Modelling’. Suffice it to say : the current talk of AI related to Sanskrit (Which is one of the languages of IKS –documents ).
The correction needed is to overcome the hermeneutic error in analytics-mismap of
‘Panini – (Vedanga- Veda Bhashaa / Deva Bhashaa/ Devataa Bhashaa / Prakruti Bhashaa / Brahmi / Shaastra Bhashaa) tradition’
to
Aristotle- – Biblical Logos Philosophical -Theological framework seen as ‘Social Colonial English’ rooted to Grekko-Roman- linguistics’.
https://biblehub.com/greek/3056.htm
Modern Neuroscience / NLP research is neutral to both above traditions and looking for ‘ Science of Magical Chant Cantation, which can influence Material Processes’.
2. As of Present, in my little and limited understanding :
a) For Samskrutham : We seem to be (almost) ‘parrot repeating the inherited textual tradition ( in specific context-windows and applications)
where the primary context-providing disciplines have almost lost their ‘ground connection and traditional modelling of ‘Language’,
where the primary context-providing disciplines seem to be comfortable living in a two-chamber disconnected - dialogue, one used for
traditional discourse ( Pride – Prejudice loaded) and one for Professional use adapting the alien model of ‘3 PP – Material science on
‘Science of Body- Mind- Language ( Deha/Shareera - Manas/Chitta – Bhashaa as Bhaava- Aakhyaana = Thought Articulation in Intelligent
Interactive Conversation’:: the scope of which is covered by the meaning attached to one Samskruth term ‘ (Yoga / Dharmyam- aavayoh-
Samvaada’ (Gita: 18-70- is just one reference ) ( or Samskrutha-Sambhashanam as preferred by some teams.)
As pointed out by Prof. Korada, there is textual traditional clarity on ‘Samskrutham: Nature of Language- Elements, Their Classifications-
Processes- Properties for Modelling’.
The technical term-pointer to this, from Vedanga is mostly ‘Varna- Svara (Vyakti) – Akshara- Samaamnaaya- Dharma/ Varna-Swabhava’.
Panini provides the vision of this in Shiva sutras. Panini gives classification clarity on Svara- Vyanjana with Pratyahara clues as ‘ Ac- hal- Al’.
Patanjali provides the pedagogy and methodology of this ‘Varna- Akshara- Samaamnaaya’ as relevant to ‘ Samskrutham’.
Bhartruhari and several later proponents elaborate Shabda Brahma : Yogaanga-Vednata :: dimensions of Samskrutha Vyakarana ( The Vak-
Yoga Sampradaya and Vako-Vakyam).
The Upaveda streams ( Ayurveda, Samveda, Vastu….) develop applications ‘ Tantra- Mantra- Yantra’- of this ‘ Language- Natural Process which
provides a Science and Technology addressing the ‘Consciousness – Intended Action of Articulation’ - thread binding the ‘Mind-Body-
medley (= Chitta –Vrutti of Five types) from Patanjali Yoga sutra ( 1- 5 and 1-6 / Sutra 1-11 defines ‘ Smruti: Indelible Imprint of Vision-
Experience in ‘Chitta’ , which can manifest later/ be recalled later/ modified and improvised and searched out using a time-space stamp).
‘Smruti –Vrutti’ , thus, is pointing to ‘Bio-Neural Memory(?)-the Material, Physical, Physiological, Biological Potential and Process imprints.
The ‘Varna- Akshara- Svara/ Vyanjana logic’ may be in this zone of ‘Chitta’. What then is ‘Chitta’ beyond ‘Brain’ ?
b) For Scientists Researching ‘ Resources in Samskrutham : there seems to be a critical need to have a clarity on ‘Ground of exploration’.
In my limited understanding, there needs to be consortium model – Resource supported – Team work – where to understand the ‘
Upaveda- specific Samskruth Language Modelling’ , for which the base is pointed to by Prof. Korada.
This work involves lot of ‘clearing-cleaning-restoring of tradition’ which in its magnitude can be said as ‘ Herculean’ or Himalayan’.
c) Your pointer on < From the modelling point of view, the consonants व्यञ्जन carry the information, the vowels स्वर provide context in the
speech expression. It is a translation of analog neurological fields to quantized acoustic units (neuron to tissue).
The vowels are the intermediary that prepare the neurological field to the possible expression.
The व्यञ्जन partition is quick engineering, built-in cosmological, while the स्वर contains the analog nature through tone
and timing.
Quantization in tone and timing is artificial, a method to reproduce speech. > :
I agree on the conclusion: < We are still struggling to understand. >
We may need a pre-requisite clarity on ‘Generation of Speech’ = Thought Articulation, answering the question – ‘Why I speak ( beyond making babbling sounds for pain or pleasure) ? the way I am speaking?
Where did language as a ‘Ghosted convention got loaded on the ‘Sound-sequence-structures’ ?
How am I loading the ‘Meaning- Purpose – Convention’ over the ‘ Sound- Structures and archetype architecture’ ?
These are some of the hidden quests in the Samskruth Language Modelling Deliberations on what makes a ‘Pada’ as ‘ vivakshita-artha – eka-vachaka’ ?
Thinking ….
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Bijoy Misra
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Prakash Raj Pandey
According to the chanda rule for Shardulavikriditam, the मु of मुक्तावली should be pronounced गुरु, and the general rule that a ह्रस्व स्वर followed by a conjunct consonant becomes गुरु, makes मु a गुरु one.
In such cases, should the ह्रस्व स्वर be pronounced as a दीर्घ स्वर, as pronounced by the reciter, or is there any other way to pronounce it as a गुरु स्वर without making it a दीर्घ one (मुक्क्तावली?).
Best regards,
Prakash Raj Pandey
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Sivasenani Nori
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