'Landscape in the Nāṭyaśāstra and clues to its spatial origin: A study in 2019' (Dr. Padmaja Venkatesh Suresh et. al.)

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Megh Kalyanasundaram

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Oct 25, 2020, 6:15:38 AM10/25/20
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A pdf may also be downloaded from here (no logging in of any kind required). 

Best,
Megh

vasantkumar bhatt

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Oct 25, 2020, 7:40:11 AM10/25/20
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Thanks for the pdf. Article on NS. 
Vmbhatt 



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yogini vyas

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Oct 25, 2020, 8:01:30 AM10/25/20
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Respected Sir,

Pranam.

Thank you very much for sharing a scholarly paper on "Landscape in the Natyashastra."The article fulfills  aesthetic standards and a very good platform for Natyashastra.

Regards,
Yogini Vyas

Subrahmanyam Korada

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Oct 29, 2020, 6:40:28 AM10/29/20
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नमो विद्वद्भ्यः

It is an excellent and authoritative Article  and  the  concept of Ancient Indian Landscape in Natyasastra should be prescribed for High School students
- स्वं स्वं चरित्रं शिक्षेरन् पृथिव्यां सर्वमानवाः (मनु 2-20) .

धन्यो’स्मि

Dr.Korada Subrahmanyam
Professor of Sanskrit (Retd)
299 Doyen , Serilingampally, Hyderabad 500 019
Ph:09866110741(M),91-40-23010741(R)
Skype Id: Subrahmanyam Korada


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Madhav Deshpande

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Oct 29, 2020, 8:51:48 AM10/29/20
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Thanks for sharing this valuable article of yours.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]


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Megh Kalyanasundaram

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Oct 29, 2020, 10:00:33 AM10/29/20
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Namaste Prof. Bhatt, 

Thank you for taking note. 

Best,
Megh


On Sunday, October 25, 2020, vasantkumar bhatt <bhatt...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Thanks for the pdf. Article on NS. 
Vmbhatt 



Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.


-------- Original message --------
From: Megh Kalyanasundaram <kalyanasundaram.megh@gmail.com>
Date: 25/10/20 15:45 (GMT+05:30)
To: भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत् <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} 'Landscape in the Nāṭyaśāstra and clues to its spatial origin: A study in 2019' (Dr. Padmaja Venkatesh Suresh et. al.)


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Best,
Megh

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Megh Kalyanasundaram

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Oct 29, 2020, 10:03:11 AM10/29/20
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Pranaam Yoginiji, 

Thank you for sharing the impressions you did. 

Best,
Megh


On Sunday, October 25, 2020, 'yogini vyas' via भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत् <bvpar...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Respected Sir,

Pranam.

Thank you very much for sharing a scholarly paper on "Landscape in the Natyashastra."The article fulfills  aesthetic standards and a very good platform for Natyashastra.

Regards,
Yogini Vyas

On Sunday, 25 October, 2020, 04:40:12 am GMT-7, vasantkumar bhatt <bhatt...@hotmail.com> wrote:


Thanks for the pdf. Article on NS. 
Vmbhatt 



Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.


-------- Original message --------
From: Megh Kalyanasundaram <kalyanasundaram.megh@gmail.com>
Date: 25/10/20 15:45 (GMT+05:30)
To: भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत् <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} 'Landscape in the Nāṭyaśāstra and clues to its spatial origin: A study in 2019' (Dr. Padmaja Venkatesh Suresh et. al.)


S1.jpeg

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Best,
Megh

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Megh Kalyanasundaram

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Oct 29, 2020, 10:12:21 AM10/29/20
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महामहोपाध्याय Korada Subrahmanyam ji, 

Please do accept my gratitude for these impressions you have shared about our paper.
Pranaaam and thank you very much.

Best,
Megh

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Megh Kalyanasundaram

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Oct 29, 2020, 10:14:31 AM10/29/20
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Namaste Professor Deshpande, 

Thank you for noticing and engaging. 

Best,
Megh


On Thursday, October 29, 2020, Madhav Deshpande <mmd...@umich.edu> wrote:
Thanks for sharing this valuable article of yours.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]


On Sun, Oct 25, 2020 at 3:15 AM Megh Kalyanasundaram <kalyanasundaram.megh@gmail.com> wrote:

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Best,
Megh

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Megh Kalyanasundaram

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May 25, 2021, 12:57:10 AM5/25/21
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Namaste,

The Concept of Bharatavarsha and Other Essays, published by Permanent Black in association with Ashoka University, appears to be well-received in certain circles, and enthusiastically referred to, in articles found in The Wire, by some Indian-origin professors based Canada (amongst others). 

Screenshot 2021-05-25 at 10.22.18.png


Best,
Megh

PS: There is perhaps something to be said, which I have not in the paper though, about the choice of the image for Indian paperback version (included above) of a book that contains 'The concept of Bharatavarsha' in its title. 

India_that_is_Bharat_One_Country_Two_Na (3).pdf

Megh Kalyanasundaram

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May 25, 2021, 1:09:10 AM5/25/21
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Balasubramanian Ramakrishnan

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May 25, 2021, 9:04:38 AM5/25/21
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Megh-ji

Good point about the photo. One can contrast books about the US with the Statue of Liberty etc. Nationalism is good for the white man, but not for the brown people - this is a fact. You have to see the jingoism in the US even within the so called liberal circles. It will put even the uber-patriots in India to shame.

Ramakrishnan

Nagaraj Paturi

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May 25, 2021, 9:24:40 AM5/25/21
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> Nationalism is good for the white man, but not for the brown people - this is a fact.

----- Not just US. All the three competing political imperialisms are based on their respective nationalisms only, expanding their nation's control over the other nations. 

It is part of their imperialist / expansionist strategy to demonize the ideas of  'nation' 'nationalism' 'nation-state' in their prey nations because that is what comes in the way of their expansion. 

Controlling nation deserves these ideas of nation, national pride etc., not the controllable one. 

Those who propagate the ideas of 'nation is mithyaa' are either erstwhile soldiers /sepoys of the World Communist Government movement or victims of self-hate psychological syndrome. These are the ones smilingly, gleefully looked at as the gullible elements of the prey nations and used by the predator imperialists. 

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--
Nagaraj Paturi
 
Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.


Director, Indic Academy
BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
BoS Kavikulaguru Kalidasa Sanskrit University, Ramtek, Maharashtra
BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru.
Member, Advisory Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthanam, Bengaluru
BoS Rashtram School of Public Leadership
Editor-in-Chief, International Journal of Studies in Public Leadership
Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies, 
FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education, 
Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
 
 
 

K S Kannan

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May 25, 2021, 10:18:10 AM5/25/21
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Very well assessed and articulated by Prof. Paturi.
Patronising these fissiparous forces is
the essential agenda of the Neocolonialists.

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--
Dr. K.S.Kannan  D.Litt.

​Sant Rajinder Singh Ji Maharaj Chair Professor, IIT-Madras.

Senior Fellow, ICSSR, New Delhi.

Academic Director, Swadeshi Indology.

Member, Academic Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthana.

Nominated Member, IIAS, Shimla.

Former Professor, CAHC, Jain University, Bangalore.

Former Director, Karnataka Samskrit University, Bangalore.

Former Head, Dept. of Sanskrit, The National Colleges, Bangalore.

R. N. iyengar

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May 26, 2021, 6:44:54 AM5/26/21
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Dear Megh, This is a provocative article (at least to me!) with no strong conclusions. Yes, more work is needed but the questions will most probably remain as they are; that is Bharata's Nāṭyaśāstra will remain as Bhārata-Nāṭyaśāstra as you have rightly noted. 

1.As an academic exercise one may look for the provenance of BNS, but Bharata  and/or his students could have put their collectively inclusive knowhow into the work which they refer as for example  
image.png
I feel we should take the text as belonging to the School of Bharata rather than authored by a person named Bharata and Bharata alone. 

2. Priyangu and Nagapushpa: Both are well attested in other texts also. In the Vrddhagaargiya jyotisha (unedited manuscript), priyangu appears along with other cereals three times. For example:
image.png
The translation of the word as saffron would be wrong. Naagapushpam in general is mentioned as flowering in Vasanta Rtu along with a long list of other flowers. To decide that Bharata was a Kashmirian ( not that you have done so) would be just another opinion. 
3. I did not follow your objections to BC Law's book. His is one of the good books on ancient geography of India. He discusses the name Bhaarata and how it has evolved out of Jambudvipa, Bharatavarsha etc with excellent textual and epigraphic evidence. The book may need revision taking into consideration what has been unearthed in 100 years; this is another issue. To mention him in the same breath as Habib imho is unjust. 
4. Present day geopolitical India, that is Bhaarat, as a Nation in the European sense has evolved out of the ideal Bhaarata of the puranas and other ancient texts. The unity in the ancient Bhaarata was cultural and Dharmic and not political in the modern sense. I recollect a Kannada inscription from the Kuntala region (present day north Karnataka, Maharashtra, and parts of AP) which starts by describing Bharatavarsha and then says  Kuntala desha is a part of Bhaarata. But the Satavahanas, the various Chalukyas, kalingas, pallavas, cholas, hoysalas, fought among themselves, but without sacrificing the underlying Dharmic ( whatever that meant to them) link to their own past ancestors and founders (if they be called so) of Bharata Varsha. The AraNyaka forest-type ecosystem of such a Bhaarata sustains even now, but for outsiders interested in sightseeing or cutting a tree, or translating a book, it is difficult to empathise with inscriptions and the inherent societal unity built on legends, rituals, drama, dance and music.
5. Last but not the least; even though absolute dating may not be possible, relatively speaking BNS may be later than Bhaasa. This issue has been discussed in the past (20th century as you may say)  to a very limited extent. A detailed technical comparison between the two would give more insight into the issues involved. 
6. BNS is a remarkable text with copious information far and wide outside what one generally considers as fine arts. For understanding IKS (an abbreviation made popular by AICTE) before the Common Era that is before week days and Raashis came into vogue, BNS is indispensable. 

Congratulations on your interest in BNS.
Best..
RN Iyengar

On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 7:16 PM R. N. iyengar <narayana...@gmail.com> wrote:

Megh Kalyanasundaram

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May 26, 2021, 7:03:13 AM5/26/21
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Namaskaaram Prof Iyengar, 

Glad to see this note and your engagement with our paper. Thank you. 
Views inline. 

Best,
Megh

On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 4:14 PM R. N. iyengar <narayana...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Megh, This is a provocative article (at least to me!) with no strong conclusions.
The conclusion of the paper begins with this: “To state the obvious: more extensive multi-disciplinary effort might be required before anything final can be concluded about the spatial origin of the Nāṭyaśāstra text.” Amongst the things we were careful about is to not force conclusions where there might be none or where it might be premature and hence your observation is well-received. We have foregrounded evidence for a new hypothesis and lets see if there is further addition to it. 
 
Yes, more work is needed but the questions will most probably remain as they are; that is Bharata's Nāṭyaśāstra will remain as Bhārata-Nāṭyaśāstra as you have rightly noted. 
"Bharata's Nāṭyaśāstra will remain as Bhārata-Nāṭyaśāstra as you have rightly noted.": Thank you for noting this.  
 

1.As an academic exercise one may look for the provenance of BNS, but Bharata  and/or his students could have put their collectively inclusive knowhow into the work which they refer as for example  
image.png
I feel we should take the text as belonging to the School of Bharata rather than authored by a person named Bharata and Bharata alone. 

Ok! 

2. Priyangu and Nagapushpa: Both are well attested in other texts also. In the Vrddhagaargiya jyotisha (unedited manuscript), priyangu appears along with other cereals three times. For example:
image.png
 
The translation of the word as saffron would be wrong.
Good to know your view about this. As you may have observed, we have raised questions about it being translated so  

Naagapushpam in general is mentioned as flowering in Vasanta Rtu along with a long list of other flowers. To decide that Bharata was a Kashmirian ( not that you have done so) would be just another opinion. 
 
3. I did not follow your objections to BC Law's book. His is one of the good books on ancient geography of India. He discusses the name Bhaarata and how it has evolved out of Jambudvipa, Bharatavarsha etc with excellent textual and epigraphic evidence. The book may need revision taking into consideration what has been unearthed in 100 years; this is another issue. To mention him in the same breath as Habib imho is unjust. 
Personally, I would agree that it would be injustice if that was the case. The "...and for that matter, even in..." was included in greater reverence to BMC but the differentiation was perhaps too subtle. Maybe it could have been made less subtle and more explicit. "His is one of the good books on ancient geography of India" Absolutely agree. Our limited point was that Ns landscape data seemed to have escaped his otherwise very comprehensive work to which I am indebted.
 
4. Present day geopolitical India, that is Bhaarat, as a Nation in the European sense has evolved out of the ideal Bhaarata of the puranas and other ancient texts. The unity in the ancient Bhaarata was cultural and Dharmic and not political in the modern sense. I recollect a Kannada inscription from the Kuntala region (present day north Karnataka, Maharashtra, and parts of AP) which starts by describing Bharatavarsha and then says  Kuntala desha is a part of Bhaarata. But the Satavahanas, the various Chalukyas, kalingas, pallavas, cholas, hoysalas, fought among themselves, but without sacrificing the underlying Dharmic ( whatever that meant to them) link to their own past ancestors and founders (if they be called so) of Bharata Varsha. The AraNyaka forest-type ecosystem of such a Bhaarata sustains even now, but for outsiders interested in sightseeing or cutting a tree, or translating a book, it is difficult to empathise with inscriptions and the inherent societal unity built on legends, rituals, drama, dance and music.
 
5. Last but not the least; even though absolute dating may not be possible, relatively speaking BNS may be later than Bhaasa. This issue has been discussed in the past (20th century as you may say)  to a very limited extent. A detailed technical comparison between the two would give more insight into the issues involved. 
 
6. BNS is a remarkable text with copious information far and wide outside what one generally considers as fine arts. For understanding IKS (an abbreviation made popular by AICTE) before the Common Era that is before week days and Raashis came into vogue, BNS is indispensable. 
Totally agree.  

Congratulations on your interest in BNS.
Thank you. And thank you for the engagement, Professor.  
Best..
RN Iyengar

On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 7:16 PM R. N. iyengar <narayana...@gmail.com> wrote:


---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Megh Kalyanasundaram <Unknown>
Date: Sunday, October 25, 2020 at 3:45:38 PM UTC+5:30
Subject: 'Landscape in the Nāṭyaśāstra and clues to its spatial origin: A study in 2019' (Dr. Padmaja Venkatesh Suresh et. al.)
To: भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत् <Unknown>



S1.jpeg

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Best,
Megh

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Megh Kalyanasundaram

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May 26, 2021, 7:25:00 AM5/26/21
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A small addition as I reflect further Prof RNI: When I wrote "Amongst the things we were careful about is to not force conclusions where there might be none or where it might be premature and hence your observation is well-received," I would like to add a qualification that, as I see it, that is readily applicable to part 2 of our paper, despite the quantum of evidence we have put together for an alternate hypothesis. Quite happy, though, with the conclusions of Part 1 of our paper, a part of which I see as you having remarked about, when you noted the point about Bhārata-Nāṭyaśāstra. 

Pranaam,
Megh

Megh Kalyanasundaram

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May 27, 2021, 2:06:39 AM5/27/21
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