Re: Scholarly Debate on ISKCON's Untimely Ratha Yatra

[Yasoda Jivan dasa]

On Mon, 3 Nov, 2025, 8:52 am Yasoda Jivan dasa, <sriradh...@gmail.com> wrote:

Namo Namah to all the revered scholars in this esteemed group,

Recently, the Sri Jagannath Temple by Administration (SJTA) released a 100-page document responding to various questions raised by the International Society for Krishna Consciousness (ISKCON). A careful scholarly examination reveals that many of the accusations made by the temple authorities lack a solid foundation, and their reasoning does not stand up to academic scrutiny.

In reply, members of ISKCON have composed a concise yet scholarly response, supported by scriptural references, to address and clarify the misunderstandings presented in the SJTA document. 

I have attached three files for your kind perusal :

1. A summary of the key points originally presented by ISKCON to the SJTA scholars.  

2. The 100-page detailed response prepared by the SJTA.  

3. The recent scholarly rejoinder from ISKCON highlighting scriptural clarifications and rectifications.  

I humbly request the respected scholars of this group to kindly review these three documents and share their learned opinions and insights on this important matter.  

With respectful obeisances,  

[Yasoda Jivan dasa]

[Yasoda Jivan dasa]

[Yasoda Jivan dasa]

On Mon, 3 Nov, 2025, 9:27 am Yasoda Jivan dasa, <sriradh...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Yasoda Jivan dasa]

On Mon, 3 Nov, 2025, 9:20 am Yasoda Jivan dasa, <sriradh...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Suchetan M]

Namaste

Upon going through both the documents. I would like to comment the following ~

1. Most of the ISKCON answers are based on appeal to authority and kind of like beating around the bush. 

2. Sri Jagannatha Ji isn't a utsava vigraha but the Mulavigraha himself, quoting vaikhanasa agamas won't work as the Puri temple runs mostly on other tantras neither Vaikhanasa nor pancaratra (except certain rituals). Thus quoting the Vaikhanasa agamas won't prove anything here as it would give rise to tantrasankarta (mixing of both ways of worship) which is condemned in every agama of any genre. Regarding His coming out of the sanctum center, it should be seen as a divine exception given by the Lord himself. The texts followed in Jagannath's worship are the purusottama mahatmya of skanda purana, vamadeva samhita, Niladri mahodaya etc.

3. Sri Vishnusahasranama is from Mahabharata, this can be read by anyone without the nyasa etc. which involves vyahartis or pranava. From the text itself we know "ko etad muchyate jantu", jantu means any bodied living being. Most of the Vaishnavas agree on this, Parashara bhattaji doesn't mention any prohibition as well also modern stalwarts of Madhva sect like Bannaje Govindacarya say that anyone can chant the Vishnusahasranama with proper caution of pronunciation. In the skandapurana the Advijas have been asked to to abhisheka of Radhakrsna with Vishnusahasranam. 

4. Through out the ISKCON document  couldn't see any quoted injunction of doing the rathayatra at any random date. Jagannatha prescribed 3 dates they may do on any of those dates or during the aniversary of the deity installation as per the pancaratra text they have quoted, but this injunction as well isn't uniformly followed.

5. One may say rules of odissa apply to odissa only, but that is only for rules like eating fish etc. not general dharmik rules which are to be followed regardless of geography. One of them is to do a particular utsava on a particular allocated time per the sastras as the SJTA has shown via the dharmasastras. If all the rules in the skandapurana were to be discarded based on geography, divinity of Jagannath would also face the same fate.

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[Yasoda Jivan dasa]

2. Sri Jagannatha Ji isn't a utsava vigraha but the Mulavigraha himself, quoting vaikhanasa agamas won't work as the Puri temple runs mostly on other tantras neither Vaikhanasa nor pancaratra (except certain rituals). Thus quoting the Vaikhanasa agamas won't prove anything here as it would give rise to tantrasankarta (mixing of both ways of worship) which is condemned in every agama of any genre. Regarding His coming out of the sanctum center, it should be seen as a divine exception given by the Lord himself. The texts followed in Jagannath's worship are the purusottama mahatmya of skanda purana, vamadeva samhita, Niladri mahodaya etc.

I have attached three documents. I am not sure if you have read 3rd pdf out of them, so I would like to attach that again. The third document quotes from three different scriptures to demonstrate that the worship of Lord Jagannātha should be performed according to the Pāñcarātra system, as originally established by Mahārāja Indradyumna. Therefore, if we follow the Pāñcarātra Āgama, there should be no controversy over whether Jagannātha is the Mūla-vigraha or the Utsava-vigraha. Furthermore, according to the Pāñcarātra, different ISKCON temples may organize Ratha Yātrās on various occasions.

3. Sri Vishnusahasranama is from Mahabharata, this can be read by anyone without the nyasa etc. which involves vyahartis or pranava. From the text itself we know "ko etad muchyate jantu", jantu means any bodied living being. Most of the Vaishnavas agree on this, Parashara bhattaji doesn't mention any prohibition as well also modern stalwarts of Madhva sect like Bannaje Govindacarya say that anyone can chant the Vishnusahasranama with proper caution of pronunciation. In the skandapurana the Advijas have been asked to to abhisheka of Radhakrsna with Vishnusahasranam. 

Yes absolutely anyone can chant without the omkara and Nyasa.

4. Through out the ISKCON document  couldn't see any quoted injunction of doing the rathayatra at any random date. Jagannatha prescribed 3 dates they may do on any of those dates or during the aniversary of the deity installation as per the pancaratra text they have quoted, but this injunction as well isn't uniformly followed.

Although the Skanda Purāṇa mentions three different dates for the Ratha Yātrā, if Jagannātha is considered an Utsava-vigraha, then there is no reason why ISKCON cannot organize Ratha Yātrās on different dates. From another perspective, the original deity in Puri is Daru Brahma, and the temple follows the Nava Kalevara process for the Puri deity. ISKCON, however, does not observe such practices. This distinction between the two deities indicates that the ISKCON deities are not Mūla-vigrahas, and therefore they may follow the rules prescribed by their own sampradāya ācāryas.

5. One may say rules of odissa apply to odissa only, but that is only for rules like eating fish etc. not general dharmik rules which are to be followed regardless of geography. One of them is to do a particular utsava on a particular allocated time per the sastras as the SJTA has shown via the dharmasastras. If all the rules in the skandapurana were to be discarded based on geography, divinity of Jagannath would also face the same fate.

The observances and rules of the Puri Temple are to be respected within the context of its own tradition. There are certainly different interpretations and approaches to understanding the scriptures in the Puri tradition and in various Vaiṣṇava sects. Therefore, the Puri Temple cannot force anyone to follow its tradition. Furthermore, the Ratha Yātrās performed in foreign countries on different dates are enhancing the glories of Lord Jagannātha.

On Mon, 3 Nov 2025, 09:20 Yasoda Jivan dasa, <sriradh...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Mon, 3 Nov, 2025, 8:52 am Yasoda Jivan dasa, <sriradh...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Mon, 3 Nov, 2025, 8:52 am Yasoda Jivan dasa, <sriradh...@gmail.com> wrote:

Namo Namah to all the revered scholars in this esteemed group,

Recently, the Sri Jagannath Temple by Administration (SJTA) released a 100-page document responding to various questions raised by the International Society for Krishna Consciousness (ISKCON). A careful scholarly examination reveals that many of the accusations made by the temple authorities lack a solid foundation, and their reasoning does not stand up to academic scrutiny.

In reply, members of ISKCON have composed a concise yet scholarly response, supported by scriptural references, to address and clarify the misunderstandings presented in the SJTA document. 

I have attached three files for your kind perusal :

1. A summary of the key points originally presented by ISKCON to the SJTA scholars.  

2. The 100-page detailed response prepared by the SJTA.  

3. The recent scholarly rejoinder from ISKCON highlighting scriptural clarifications and rectifications.  

I humbly request the respected scholars of this group to kindly review these three documents and share their learned opinions and insights on this important matter.  

With respectful obeisances,  

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[Yasoda Jivan dasa]

On Wed, 5 Nov, 2025, 11:52 am Yasoda Jivan dasa, <sriradh...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, 5 Nov, 2025, 11:50 am Yasoda Jivan dasa, <sriradh...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Yasoda Jivan dasa]

[Yasoda Jivan dasa]

[Raṅganātha]

Indeed  I have gone through all the three documents you mercifully brought to my notice. 

I have attached three documents. I am not sure if you have read 3rd pdf out of them, so I would like to attach that again. The third document quotes from three different scriptures to demonstrate that the worship of Lord Jagannātha should be performed according to the Pāñcarātra system, as originally established by Mahārāja Indradyumna. Therefore, if we follow the Pāñcarātra Āgama, there should be no controversy over whether Jagannātha is the Mūla-vigraha or the Utsava-vigraha. Furthermore, according to the Pāñcarātra, different ISKCON temples may organize Ratha Yātrās on various occasions.

 The verse quoted in the document "pañcarātravidhānena saṃpūjya puruṣottamam cintāviṣṭo mahīpālaḥ saṃstotum upacakrame" comes previous to the establishment of Jagannatha. The King indeed was a Pañcarātrin, but the injunction required to claim "Jagannath "must" be worshipped via Pañcarātras" is still lacking in their part though we accept that certain portions at certain festivals can be accepted. Also as I have said earlier that Jagannātha is the special case of simultaneously being a Mūla Vigraha and calanti vigraha, this is supported by the skanda-purāṇa itself as we know from the mīmāṁsā rule "śruti-liṅga-vākya-prakaraṇa-sthāna-samākhyānāṃ samavāye pāradaurbalyam arthaviprakarṣāt" as we have a direct statement 'śruti' it doesn't need any further validation. Even the section from Nārada Purāṇa that they have quoted, the next chapter itself says when the Rathayātrā must be performed it goes "āṣāḍhasya site pakṣe paṃcamyāṃ pitṛdaivate ṛkṣe neṣyaṃti nastatra nītvā sapta dināni vai" from the skandapurāṇa we have "tvattīrthatīre rājeṃdra sthāsyāmi prativatsaram | sarvatīrthāni tasmiṃśca sthāsyaṃti mayi tiṣṭhati ||". Even if we go by the proposal they are suggesting viz. accepting the Pañcarātra vidhi as the main protocol, still the IISB couldn't show any injunction from the Pañcarātra texts which says "The utsava can be done on random dates as per the local government norms". Furthermore the Rathayātrā mentioned in Praśna saṁhitā and Guṁḍicāyātrā are vastly differing though both may seem similar. Also we do not see any uniformity in performing the rathayātrā on the 9th day of deity installation as suggested by Śrī Praśna saṁhitā 'bimbāvirbhāvaṛkṣe vā pratiṣṭhātārake’pi vā | tat tithī vā tīrthayātrāṁ niścityāṅkarapūrvakam navame divase devi prātarbalyantamarcayet deśikendrīyathāśāstraṁ kṛtvā rathavarotsavam'.

Although the Skanda Purāṇa mentions three different dates for the Ratha Yātrā, if Jagannātha is considered an Utsava-vigraha, then there is no reason why ISKCON cannot organize Ratha Yātrās on different dates. From another perspective, the original deity in Puri is Daru Brahma, and the temple follows the Nava Kalevara process for the Puri deity. ISKCON, however, does not observe such practices. This distinction between the two deities indicates that the ISKCON deities are not Mūla-vigrahas, and therefore they may follow the rules prescribed by their own sampradāya ācāryas.

That is the catch here that Śrī Jagannātha can't be considered an utsava-vigraha, The temple already has two utsava-vigraha for Jagannātha viz. Śrī Dola Govinda and Śrī Madanamohana. Also where is the injunction that Utsava-vigrahas can be taken out of the temple on random days ? we must remember the incident of the previous utsava deity of Sri Venkatanayaka who is worshipped by the name Sri Ugra Srinivasa now. Indeed I agree they may follow the rules prescribed in their sampradaya, but that must be based on an authoritative text not the government. Also the Hayaśirṣa pañcarātra has the process of something similar to Navakalevara if ISKCON wants they may do it as per the text's 16th chapter. 

The observances and rules of the Puri Temple are to be respected within the context of its own tradition. There are certainly different interpretations and approaches to understanding the scriptures in the Puri tradition and in various Vaiṣṇava sects. Therefore, the Puri Temple cannot force anyone to follow its tradition. Furthermore, the Ratha Yātrās performed in foreign countries on different dates are enhancing the glories of Lord Jagannātha.

Recently there was a temple opening dedicated to Srinivasa in Hyderabad, this is an extension of the uttaradimath, Sri Satyatma Tirtha. 

Notice the Pundra on Bhagavan is as per the Tirupati temple alone and not the traditional Madhva tilak. Indeed no one can force anyone but please show the injunction of taking out Utsava deities at public whim only then can we reach to the conclusion as desired by the IISB.

[Suchetan M]

Indeed  I have gone through all the three documents you mercifully brought to my notice. 

I have attached three documents. I am not sure if you have read 3rd pdf out of them, so I would like to attach that again. The third document quotes from three different scriptures to demonstrate that the worship of Lord Jagannātha should be performed according to the Pāñcarātra system, as originally established by Mahārāja Indradyumna. Therefore, if we follow the Pāñcarātra Āgama, there should be no controversy over whether Jagannātha is the Mūla-vigraha or the Utsava-vigraha. Furthermore, according to the Pāñcarātra, different ISKCON temples may organize Ratha Yātrās on various occasions.

 The verse quoted in the document "pañcarātravidhānena saṃpūjya puruṣottamam cintāviṣṭo mahīpālaḥ saṃstotum upacakrame" comes previous to the establishment of Jagannatha. The King indeed was a Pañcarātrin, but the injunction required to claim "Jagannath "must" be worshipped via Pañcarātras" is still lacking in their part though we accept that certain portions at certain festivals can be accepted. Also as I have said earlier that Jagannātha is the special case of simultaneously being a Mūla Vigraha and calanti vigraha, this is supported by the skanda-purāṇa itself as we know from the mīmāṁsā rule "śruti-liṅga-vākya-prakaraṇa-sthāna-samākhyānāṃ samavāye pāradaurbalyam arthaviprakarṣāt" as we have a direct statement 'śruti' it doesn't need any further validation. Even the section from Nārada Purāṇa that they have quoted, the next chapter itself says when the Rathayātrā must be performed it goes "āṣāḍhasya site pakṣe paṃcamyāṃ pitṛdaivate ṛkṣe neṣyaṃti nastatra nītvā sapta dināni vai" from the skandapurāṇa we have "tvattīrthatīre rājeṃdra sthāsyāmi prativatsaram | sarvatīrthāni tasmiṃśca sthāsyaṃti mayi tiṣṭhati ||". Even if we go by the proposal they are suggesting viz. accepting the Pañcarātra vidhi as the main protocol, still the IISB couldn't show any injunction from the Pañcarātra texts which says "The utsava can be done on random dates as per the local government norms". Furthermore the Rathayātrā mentioned in Praśna saṁhitā and Guṁḍicāyātrā are vastly differing though both may seem similar. Also we do not see any uniformity in performing the rathayātrā on the 9th day of deity installation as suggested by Śrī Praśna saṁhitā 'bimbāvirbhāvaṛkṣe vā pratiṣṭhātārake’pi vā | tat tithī vā tīrthayātrāṁ niścityāṅkarapūrvakam navame divase devi prātarbalyantamarcayet deśikendrīyathāśāstraṁ kṛtvā rathavarotsavam'.

Although the Skanda Purāṇa mentions three different dates for the Ratha Yātrā, if Jagannātha is considered an Utsava-vigraha, then there is no reason why ISKCON cannot organize Ratha Yātrās on different dates. From another perspective, the original deity in Puri is Daru Brahma, and the temple follows the Nava Kalevara process for the Puri deity. ISKCON, however, does not observe such practices. This distinction between the two deities indicates that the ISKCON deities are not Mūla-vigrahas, and therefore they may follow the rules prescribed by their own sampradāya ācāryas.

That is the catch here that Śrī Jagannātha can't be considered an utsava-vigraha, The temple already has two utsava-vigraha for Jagannātha viz. Śrī Dola Govinda and Śrī Madanamohana. Also where is the injunction that Utsava-vigrahas can be taken out of the temple on random days ? we must remember the incident of the previous utsava deity of Sri Venkatanayaka who is worshipped by the name Sri Ugra Srinivasa now. Indeed I agree they may follow the rules prescribed in their sampradaya, but that must be based on an authoritative text not the government. Also the Hayaśirṣa pañcarātra has the process of something similar to Navakalevara if ISKCON wants they may do it as per the text's 16th chapter. 

The observances and rules of the Puri Temple are to be respected within the context of its own tradition. There are certainly different interpretations and approaches to understanding the scriptures in the Puri tradition and in various Vaiṣṇava sects. Therefore, the Puri Temple cannot force anyone to follow its tradition. Furthermore, the Ratha Yātrās performed in foreign countries on different dates are enhancing the glories of Lord Jagannātha.

Recently there was a temple opening dedicated to Srinivasa in Hyderabad, this is an extension of the uttaradimath, Sri Satyatma Tirtha. 

Notice the Pundra on Bhagavan is as per the Tirupati temple alone and not the traditional Madhva tilak. Indeed no one can force anyone but please show the injunction of taking out Utsava deities at public whim only then can we reach to the conclusion as desired by the IISB.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CA%2BxhfBJ9NkT%2BibzUfTbTVvKUHD-1H63eQ%2B%2BOc2Sx4Zg3mw7XEQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Bijoy Misra]

It is unfortunate that ISKCON is stuck with the thought of commercialization

of a  cultural festival.  Today is another of Odisha traditions, Bali Yatra.

This commemorates when people tooks boats on trade trips to Bali islands (Indonesia).

There are other yatras in Odisha that have the similar implications, but all lunar.

Yatra is the key word, it symbolizes the time one leaves home with the anticipation of returning back.

Yatra is possibly a cultural word that has moved in different forms to other languages. 

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CA%2BEhR9orN6QWCR0moXyKYVEBUhwpigG-Rw05U7B1gysikpFi8w%40mail.gmail.com.