Bhopal Gas Tragedy and Agnihotra

[Venkata Sriram]

Namaste,

Everyone of us are aware about the Bhopal Gas Tragedy that resulted in heavy toll of life.  Those who survived, suffered from radiation effects etc.  However, a news about a family who survived hit the headlines later that they were sole survivors who came out unscathed.  It was later revealed that they used to do regular havan and gayatri japa.  I was a kid that time and was in my school days. 

Here is the news link:

https://www.hindujagruti.org/news/15349.html

Would like to know whether anybody met that family after this accident.  If the family still exists, then they are the practical living example how the vedic way of life is simple, scientific, healthy and environmental-friendly.

regs,

sriram

[Nagaraj Paturi]

http://creative.sulekha.com/agnihotra-homam-saved-a-family-from-bhopal-gas-tragedy_113693_blog says that

(English Daily-“The Hindu’ of 4-5-85; news item under the heading ‘Vedic Way to Beat Pollution’.)

A dig for this piece may help.

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Excerpt of the news is here:

http://www.homatherapy.org/content/vedic-way-beat-pollution-excerpt-hindu-newspaper-april-1985

[Dr. Yadu Moharir]

Namaste:

I do not see any proof or evidence for arriving at the conclusion that "agnihotra" can be attributed to this.

Explanation is simple and there is no need to create mystery associated with agniohotra.

Methyl isocyanate that was released during the accident is extremely reactive and will try to form a stable compound ASAP.

May be the person practicing the ritual was far away and/or in an area where the toxic reactive compound  did not reach that area..  THAT IS ALL.  Indians are champions creating Mystery around rituals.  When they do not / cannot demonstrate in controlled environment, they ry to blame it on the pronunciation of the person reciting the mantras....  etc..  This practice has only propagated the Great Business of Swami's and andha-shraddhaa.

Few years ago I reviewed a paper that claimed that Plants growth is accelerated when they are placed in the yaj~na-kuNDa and concluded that it was Vedic Mantra.  However, there author had hailed to monitor CO2 and moisture (Humidity) for the control specimens or the observed plants.

Hope, some scholars can justify the conclusions in a scientific logical manner.

Thanks

Dr Yadu

---

From: Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com>
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 3, 2016 5:16 AM
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Bhopal Gas Tragedy and Agnihotra

[sunil bhattacharjya]

namaste,

Let us look at this issue positively. There is no doubt that scientific evaluation has to be done to get the true picture of the benefit of the Yajnas, apart from the intangible benefits benefits accruing in the form of sociological and  psychosomatic welfare to the participants. The ash from the yajna contains potassium and  other valuable trace elements, and any claim that its application promotes  plant growth cannot be denied. There have also been reports that the smoke from yajna have cloud-deeding effect. If that is so, one has to determine the quantity of firewood that would have to be burnt for that to have significant effect. 

Thanks

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Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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[N.R.Joshi]

Aug 4, 2016

 

 I agree with one hundred percent with this posting of Dr. Yadu.

 

Swamis are propagating such nonsense stories in America. One acarya in his visit to Houston told in temple that Sagar putras dug earth and they reached California in America..

 

When my friend try to corner one swami on such nonsense stories, bhaktas immediately gather near swami and say swami has no time now.

 

Large number of Hindu population learn this stories from the childhood and even after education they keep believing them.

 

Even one Ph.D. scientist believed that if you make wooden model of the devanagari letter K or P and blow air , it will produce sound of that letter.

 

People get difficulties in life and they would like to get blessings from swami. That is ok.

 

One swami said to me-Joshiji-No namaskara without camatkara. True.

Thanks . N.R.Joshi

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

 

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

 

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[sunil bhattacharjya]

Thanks that Dr. Joshi and I are one hundred percent with Dr, Yadu on this. 

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

 

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

 

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[Venkata Sriram]

Namaste Yaduji,

I second with your thoughts that our thinking should be coupled with rational approach.  There was a big hype created around Agnihotra w.r.t to Bhopal Gas Leakage.

However, on the flip side (potency of vedic suktas), there are incidents in the recent past.  Most of us are aware of a great vedic scholar Sri.Uppuluri Ganapati Sastry who was awarded the title "vedapurusha".  He once conducted varuNa japa in tirumala during the times of draught, and there was a huge downpour near yAgashAla and the reservoir became full, thus, the problem of draught was solved. Sri.Raghavendra Tirthalu (Rayaru) of mantralayam, chanted prANa-sukta of Rg veda and brought the dead plant to life.  Green leaves started growing.  When He chanted Agni sukta with sandal paste in His hand and applied to his saha-adhyAyi, he got burning sensation  over his body.  

When son of Ganapati Muni (Sri.A.Mahadeva Sastry) got his right leg fractured completely (it was multiple fractures), Sri.Muni performed the anuSTAna of "asthi-sandhNa-mantra" (the mantra for joining of bones) for 40 days, the bones got united.  His daughter Smt.Vajreshwari personally told us.  

These aspects show that vedic suktas do yield results when chanted by a adhikAri who attained upAsana siddhi.  

That is why I enquired whether anybody personally met that Agnihotri who survived the tragedy and came unscathed.

regs,

sriram

[sunil bhattacharjya]

Dear Venkata Sriramji,

I supported Yaduji that there should be reliable enquiry, with authentication.  I also made some suggestions on the ways the investigation can be started, The only difference between Yaduji's and my approaches has been that I am an optimistic person desiring authentication, whereas Yaduji seems to be sceptical on this issue.

Regards,

Sunil KB

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[sadasivamurty rani]

Pranams to all.

In the context of disproving the influence of Agnihotra in preventing the spread of poisonous gasses Yadu ji made the following statement: "Indians are champions in creating Mystery around rituals." Here I have a bunch of questions.

1. Which Indians? North Indians or South Indians?

2. Are those Indians inclusive Yadu ji or all the rest of the nation excluding Yaduji?

3. In the attempt of scientifically disproving the influence of Agnihotra is it necessary to blame all Indians while a few Indians hold any such views? 

4. Does such generalization of individuals' opinions fetch any rational support to the core argument?

5. On this occasion I would like to bring to the kind notice of Yadu ji about a progressive pursuit by some scientists like Prof. Sai Gopal, Prof. Hussain and others of Department of Atmospheric Sciences to prove the influence of YAJNAS in the purification of atmosphere.

I request Yaduji to interact with such scientists to unearth the facts instead of blaming us all innocent Indians for no fault of us.

Warm regards,

Prof. Rani Sadasiva Murty

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

I don’t think one needs to support superstitious and false beliefs. I would like to know what point does Prof Rani Sadashivamurty intends to convey instead of simply condemning superstitious and irrational beliefs. I feel scholarly believers and propagators or irrational beliefs are more dangerous than ignorant Indians who believe in irrationality. Why should one interact with such scientists or so called scientists who make controversial claims and propagates such claims and have intentions to drive India to middle ages. I am not saying impartial and good researches should be conducted on Indian sciences and progress Indians had achieved but is this the way to go forward is the question one needs to ask. Thanks

 

From: 'sadasivamurty rani' via भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत् [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com]
Sent: Friday, August 5, 2016 12:31 PM
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Bhopal Gas Tragedy and Agnihotra

 

Pranams to all.

[sadasivamurty rani]

Ajit ji.. 

I am not against the content of the context. When it is superstitious it can definitely be condemned by us all. 

My concern is to object such generalization made by Yaduji... "Indians are champions in creating Mystery around rituals."

A few people if hold any superstitious thoughts can we generalize it saying that all Indians are superstitious? 

Regards, 

Prof. Rani Sadasiva Murty

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

I accept generalising based on flimsy data is a habit many western Indologists and educated Indians who live abroad adopt for they have a huge knowledge gap or have lost the teachers who can teach them in the right way

--

[sadasivamurty rani]

Thanks for understanding my spirit Ajit ji. 

Rani Sadasiva Murty

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 1:49 PM, Ajit Gargeshwari

<ajit.gar...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Anand Ghurye]

It is sad that so called Swamis keep spreading non scientific beliefs .

It is equally sad that so called scientist and science minded people take pleasure in only discrediting such swamis in social conversations  instead of checking out the facts in scientific way .

This news item appeared in 1985 . 

The facts are clearly stated . 

1.The family was living about one mile away from the site of accident . 

2.Everyone in their vicinity got affected , hospitalized . 

3.Nothing happened to the family members . Not even hospitalization . 

4.This was a miracle . 

5.This was due to their practice of Agnihotra.

Out of these first three are easily verifiable.  If the first three happen to be true , then the fourth is true . It is a miracle . 

In that case , we need to find the science / reason behind the miracle . It may be applicable elsewhere . This is how scientific research is done . 

Has anybody done that ? Not in the 30 years that have passed !

And we keep tossing around the news item , discussing irrelevant things !

Regards ,

Anand Ghúryé

*Training*Development*Synectics
Space Page : 9820489416

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

--

Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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[Ajit Gargeshwari]

You are right this whole discussion in not worthwhile  If a rational explanation is not given then one starts attributing causes of such causes to supernatural powers and start myth making and spread superstitious beliefs. There may be instances in an experiment conducted deviations are shown from standard results. That does not mean science is at fault but only proves that the process on interpreting results is at fault or the hypothis may have to be reconsidered to cover the deviations. Now if Agnihotra is the savoir lets all perform Agni hotra and start living in areas where there are poisonous gases and prove we can live. If out 10 people 9 survive then one can reconsider scientific explanation but if out 100 million one survive there is no need to relook into science.

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

--

Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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[Surendra Mohan Mishra]

the gita says: प्रत्यक्षावगमं धर्म्यं सुसुखं कर्तुमव्ययम् / in 9th chapter beginning. let's not deride our great tradition in the name of modern science ! उत्पत्स्यतेSस्ति वत कोSपि समानधर्मा कालो ह्ययं निरवधिर्विपुला च पृथ्वी / regards.

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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[Ajit Gargeshwari]

I have already said what I have said our Shastras are scientific that doesn’t mean we should yield to unscientific methods. I take leave from this thread

I am not starting Our great traditions with 21 century science. Many are doing it. I did not start this thread.

 

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Surendra Mohan Mishra
Sent: Friday, August 5, 2016 8:20 PM
To: भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Bhopal Gas Tragedy and Agnihotra

 

the gita says: प्रत्यक्षावगमं धर्म्यं सुसुखं कर्तुमव्ययम् / in 9th chapter beginning. let's not deride our great tradition in the name of modern science ! उत्पत्स्यतेSस्ति वत कोSपि समानधर्मा कालो ह्ययं निरवधिर्विपुला च पृथ्वी / regards.

 

On 5 August 2016 at 18:45, Ajit Gargeshwari <ajit.gar...@gmail.com> wrote:

You are right this whole discussion in not worthwhile  If a rational explanation is not given then one starts attributing causes of such causes to supernatural powers and start myth making and spread superstitious beliefs. There may be instances in an experiment conducted deviations are shown from standard results. That does not mean science is at fault but only proves that the process on interpreting results is at fault or the hypothis may have to be reconsidered to cover the deviations. Now if Agnihotra is the savoir lets all perform Agni hotra and start living in areas where there are poisonous gases and prove we can live. If out 10 people 9 survive then one can reconsider scientific explanation but if out 100 million one survive there is no need to relook into science.

 

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

--

Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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Tel : (Off.)01744 238410(extn.)2504
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[Gopal]

namaste.

Thanks Sriramji for your excellent note. Were you able to get the reference of the richaas involved int he asthi=sandhNa-mantra? If so, kindly share them with me. You had mentioned it 6 years back when we met....

In the last two years, when Mr. Cho Ramaswamy, a veteran journalist from chennai, was hospitalized with severe illness , his well-wishers had a few lakh aavarthi of of Rig veda 10.161   performed (Munchami tva havisha).  This sukta prayoga has been suggested for ayush vriddi and maaraka rodhana).   Mr. Cho Ramaswamy is back home for the last year or so.  It is to be noted here that Mr. Ramaswamy has a deep-rooted faith in vedic  samskraras.  Rig veda 10.162 prayoga is prescribed for Garbha raksha at early stages of pregnancy. three generations back, there were some madhwa families who were known to use this for the purpose in Udumalaipet, Tamilnadu area.

It is  stated that Rig mantraas by the rishis are of "high and low" reaches.  The argument that Shounaka uses for Rig vidhana had been stated by a few in the past  as:  if the rig mantraas are potent to lead someone to the status of rishis ("high" reaches), the complement is also true that they can be applied to obtain material gains ("low" reaches).  This view point has been used to enunciate various prayoga-prescriptions in his Rig vidhaana.  This work supposedly pre-dates the texts of  other, "non-scientific" domain of Tantraas.

In science, the starting point is an hypothesis followed by a sincere (shraddha-purvak) effort, following the appropriate methods and materials, to prove or disprove it.  Mere speculations based on existing knowledge, however hard-earned it could be, does not justify calling a hypothesis right or wrong.   If one wants to approach the topic of efficacy of mantraas in a scientific way, then the first step would be to identify the appropriate methods etc.  In any scientific endeavor, it is also necessary to state and understand "prior existing knowledge" before deriving a hypothesis.  Again, even for this an unbiased,  due diligence is recommended as against an opinionated, merely speculative outlook.  

Just because something is said in tradition, it need not be unscientific. May be our knowledge of right means to find out and/or understand the underlying process may be one of the factors contributing to our confusion. For example, it is generally known that the place and method of growth of herbs determine the efficacy of the medical concoctions as described in some texts of Ayurvedha. Now, using soil and rhizosphere Microbiome studies, it has been published that grape vines from the same stock show different properties in grapes and thus in wines fermented from them,  if the plants are grown in different soils and environmenst.   The resolution of the fundamental characteristics of this scientific fact in an ayurvedha text (generally for herbs) and a contemporary scientific article (specifically for wine grapes, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4338078/) is obviously different.  It may be even dangerous to interpolate the wine grapes study to ayurvedic herbs. But to blindly state "everything in ayurvedha texts about the factors determining the efficacy of the herbs is wrong or non-scientific"  merely highlights one's limitations in understanding science and mantras.

My 2 cents.

thanks,

..gopal Gopinath

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[sunil bhattacharjya]

Dear scholars,

Apart from what I wrote earlier I wish to add the following for investigation. If anybody wants to have a fresh look at the efficacy of  the havan performed by some of the residents of Bhopal at the time of the lethal gas-leakage, he or she should also find out which fuel was used on that occasion. Many people use the dried cow-dung cakes for the havan and it has been reported that  many a times the cow-dung cakes contains chemicals including pesticides and other toxic components. People using such cowdung cakes are generally used to the exposure to such smoke from the burnt cowdung cakes. During the time of the gas-leakage,the havan was surely performed inside the closed house and the house might have already full of such smokes. One has to look at the possibilty of the high concentration of the havan smoke interacting with the very low  concentration (at parts per million level) of the leakaed gas and reducing the lethal effect of the latter.

Regards,
skb

[Anand Ghurye]

Ajitji ,

My point was that for 30 years nobody took notice of the incident , nobody carried out any study , nobody interviewed the family and now that someone points it out ,people want to reject it as superstition.

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Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

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FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Vidwan Anand Ghuryeji,

I second your point-wise critical response to the scientism- based Indian-bashing by our own Indian fraternity.

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

Yes you may be right there is no proper documentation apart from hear say. Till one has enough documentary evidence or established proof it must in realms of speculation ( or Myth making or superstitious beliefs). My personal belief cannot be generalised until my personal belief can be proved. There is no question of Indian bashing the same applies even for miracles reported in the west. I don’t see why one should focus to prove an impossible and say we are Indians champions of nationalism. Why are sceptics sidelined but the so called Nationalists who seem to say they know all about the ancients and all others who don’t nod to their view points are Antii national or don’t care about Indian culture. All do as much as these Myth makers. Myth makers care only about their myths and nothing else. I repeat as I have repeated Indians had achieved a lot in the areas of science mathematics astronomy etc, there is no denying. Highlighting incidents like this is this way to know truth?

 

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Anand Ghurye
Sent: Saturday, August 6, 2016 1:37 AM
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Bhopal Gas Tragedy and Agnihotra

 

Ajitji ,

My point was that for 30 years nobody took notice of the incident , nobody carried out any study , nobody interviewed the family and now that someone points it out ,people want to reject it as superstition.

​

On Aug 5, 2016 6:45 PM, "Ajit Gargeshwari" <ajit.gar...@gmail.com> wrote:

You are right this whole discussion in not worthwhile  If a rational explanation is not given then one starts attributing causes of such causes to supernatural powers and start myth making and spread superstitious beliefs. There may be instances in an experiment conducted deviations are shown from standard results. That does not mean science is at fault but only proves that the process on interpreting results is at fault or the hypothis may have to be reconsidered to cover the deviations. Now if Agnihotra is the savoir lets all perform Agni hotra and start living in areas where there are poisonous gases and prove we can live. If out 10 people 9 survive then one can reconsider scientific explanation but if out 100 million one survive there is no need to relook into science.

 

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FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Sharing a chapter of the book " Vision of Aryan Glory" . I request the members not to get digressed into the beaten track issues of validity of the word/concept of  'Aryan' and so on. Reading 'Vedic' for 'Aryan', we may try to understand the views of a legendary visionary scholar of yester years.  

The full book may be downloaded from here 

The author poojya E Ananthacharyaji was not a mere interpreter or theory-maker he practically experimented the ideas of the Vedic texts and created new medical products. 

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

Thank you for sharing Vision of Aryan Glory from TTD website. The book is well written and can be read to supplement our knowledge

 

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Nagaraj Paturi

Sent: Saturday, August 6, 2016 12:18 PM
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Bhopal Gas Tragedy and Agnihotra

 

Sharing a chapter of the book " Vision of Aryan Glory" . I request the members not to get digressed into the beaten track issues of validity of the word/concept of  'Aryan' and so on. Reading 'Vedic' for 'Aryan', we may try to understand the views of a legendary visionary scholar of yester years.  

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FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

>Why are sceptics sidelined but the so called Nationalists who seem to say they know all about the ancients ..........

-------- 1. Who is sidelined by whom? All the mainstream platforms of academics are clearly and unquestionably scientism-centric and modernity-centric. Any scientism based statement is swallowed in a gulp without questioning,  taken as granted, as given. Any one who makes sense of ideas from the traditional cultures of different social groups of the world are immediately asked to provide a scientism-compatible proof or stand as superstitious.

           2. Those who try to make sense of premodern and non-modern ideas are in fact uncritically lumped and branded as 'nationalists' and the world-war-time-born abuses such as fascism and so on are hurled on them to invoke fears and paranoias of those traumatic memories and show the scepticism towards scientism as villainous and scepticism towards such alternative ideas as heroic.

          3. Environmentalism is one of the contemporary movements that exposed the lacunae in the claims of science   such as absolute objectivity ( ref. "Technology and Human Destiny" by Henryk Skolimowsky) and created a new favourable attitude towards alternative knowledge systems. This development in the history of knowledge is more relevant in the context of the present thread because it is environmentalism that helps in making sense of most of the ideas of Yajna of which havan is the brick.

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

I agree with what you say there is no doubt. One may continue to believe the again hotra episode of Bhopal gas tragedy and I have no objection to any ones belief.

 

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Nagaraj Paturi

Sent: Saturday, August 6, 2016 12:52 PM
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Bhopal Gas Tragedy and Agnihotra

 

>Why are sceptics sidelined but the so called Nationalists who seem to say they know all about the ancients ..........

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Aayushmaan Venkata Sriram's post on Bhopal gas tragedy and havan news, though was out of the blue, and though he himself considers the whole news activity around the case as just a hype, it triggered, rather revived the debate around the  usefulness of  havan and yajna made of that brick. The case of the family saved during the tragedy is just a data, a fact. Role of havan in the family's surviving the tragedy is an open issue for investigation. Both the ideas of 'havan had a role in the survival''  , 'havan had no role in the survival'' are not supported by any research.

Validity of usefulness of havan and yajna is independent of this open to investigation, not yet resolved case.  

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Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

--

Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Just as fake allopathic doctors (called by several different names such as RMPs and their failing or harmful treatments can not disprove the efficacy of modern medicine, the fake Vedic scholars/practitioners such as the fake Sadhus/Swamis/Babas and their cheating tricks using methods such as havan can not disprove the efficacy of havans and yajnas made of havans.

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

The focus of this thread was with specific focus on Bhopal Gas tragedy and Agni Hotra episode. Till one has verified and confirmed publications on efficacy of homas we all can keep an open mind and not post conclusions. Thanks

 

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Nagaraj Paturi
Sent: Saturday, August 6, 2016 2:44 PM
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Bhopal Gas Tragedy and Agnihotra

 

Just as fake allopathic doctors (called by several different names such as RMPs and their failing or harmful treatments can not disprove the efficacy of modern medicine, the fake Vedic scholars/practitioners such as the fake Sadhus/Swamis/Babas and their cheating tricks using methods such as havan can not disprove the efficacy of havans and yajnas made of havans.

 

On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 1:43 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

Aayushmaan Venkata Sriram's post on Bhopal gas tragedy and havan news, though was out of the blue, and though he himself considers the whole news activity around the case as just a hype, it triggered, rather revived the debate around the  usefulness of  havan and yajna made of that brick. The case of the family saved during the tragedy is just a data, a fact. Role of havan in the family's surviving the tragedy is an open issue for investigation. Both the ideas of 'havan had a role in the survival''  , 'havan had no role in the survival'' are not supported by any research.

 

Validity of usefulness of havan and yajna is independent of this open to investigation, not yet resolved case.  

On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 1:25 PM, Ajit Gargeshwari <ajit.gar...@gmail.com> wrote:

I agree with what you say there is no doubt. One may continue to believe the again hotra episode of Bhopal gas tragedy and I have no objection to any ones belief.

 

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

--

Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

--

Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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[Ajit Gargeshwari]

As a side note to this debate This is a serious thought I had from many years. Wanted to know if such a thought had accrued to any one before. To have a national or probably an International committee to study ghosts, devils, rebirth, on claims of Saints and God men or women, on the law of Karma, all ritual practices human beliefs including vedic yajnas publish books and papers an disseminate it all interested public. The committee can experts from all walks of life. This committee of experts may probably answer and settle these aid old question daunting mankind for thousands of years instead of knee jerk reaction which we often see.

Regards

Ajit Gargeshwari

 

From: Ajit Gargeshwari [mailto:ajit.gar...@gmail.com]

Sent: Saturday, August 6, 2016 3:52 PM
To: 'bvpar...@googlegroups.com'

Subject: RE: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Bhopal Gas Tragedy and Agnihotra

 

The focus of this thread was with specific focus on Bhopal Gas tragedy and Agni Hotra episode. Till one has verified and confirmed publications on efficacy of homas we all can keep an open mind and not post conclusions. Thanks

 

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Nagaraj Paturi
Sent: Saturday, August 6, 2016 2:44 PM
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Bhopal Gas Tragedy and Agnihotra

 

Just as fake allopathic doctors (called by several different names such as RMPs and their failing or harmful treatments can not disprove the efficacy of modern medicine, the fake Vedic scholars/practitioners such as the fake Sadhus/Swamis/Babas and their cheating tricks using methods such as havan can not disprove the efficacy of havans and yajnas made of havans.

 

On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 1:43 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

Aayushmaan Venkata Sriram's post on Bhopal gas tragedy and havan news, though was out of the blue, and though he himself considers the whole news activity around the case as just a hype, it triggered, rather revived the debate around the  usefulness of  havan and yajna made of that brick. The case of the family saved during the tragedy is just a data, a fact. Role of havan in the family's surviving the tragedy is an open issue for investigation. Both the ideas of 'havan had a role in the survival''  , 'havan had no role in the survival'' are not supported by any research.

 

Validity of usefulness of havan and yajna is independent of this open to investigation, not yet resolved case.  

On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 1:25 PM, Ajit Gargeshwari <ajit.gar...@gmail.com> wrote:

I agree with what you say there is no doubt. One may continue to believe the again hotra episode of Bhopal gas tragedy and I have no objection to any ones belief.

 

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

--

Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

--

Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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[Bijoy Misra]

Dear Ajitji and friends,

I think there is a confusion between the physical issues and the yogic manifestations.

Pranayama certainly has value, but instances of pure yogi are rare.  There is also 

some psychic sense, which has little physical explanation.  The modern science, for

convenience, abandons this since the tools don't exist to probe.  It would be more

pertinent if systematic work is done to understand the neural aspects of pleasure

and pain in the worldly context.  Of course, gross generalizations are unfortunate.

Best regards,

Bijoy Misra    

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

--

Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

--

Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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[Ajit Gargeshwari]

As there is confusion so are such researches which create more doubts and don’t clearly say they are not dealing with physical issues. Not physical issues many a times subjective issues with very less objectivity in mind. Such papers and researcher must clearly state such researches are a just are hypothesis or a possibility instead they don’t do that. Most of the people who publish such researches on Homa therapy yagnic efficiency ESP levitation higher aspects of Samadhi for instance Nirvikalpa Samadhi, Past life regressions, levitation Mantra siddhi. Western mysticism, Black magic Yogic powers etc. are not most of the times qualified to speak either about the science or about non physical subject matter. We have thousands or popular book in the market but very less serious academic books or papers. Hence I suggested such a committee should be formed which can settle once and for all such claims with an open mind. Why shy away from impartial question and challenging which our culture is so open to.. I am not giving a time frame for such a committee to arrive at conclusions but an attempt can be made. The modalities and members of such a grand committee can be worked out.

 

Regards

Ajit Gargeshwari

 

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bijoy Misra
Sent: Saturday, August 6, 2016 5:19 PM
To: Bharatiya Vidvat parishad
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Bhopal Gas Tragedy and Agnihotra

 

Dear Ajitji and friends,

I think there is a confusion between the physical issues and the yogic manifestations.

Pranayama certainly has value, but instances of pure yogi are rare.  There is also 

some psychic sense, which has little physical explanation.  The modern science, for

convenience, abandons this since the tools don't exist to probe.  It would be more

pertinent if systematic work is done to understand the neural aspects of pleasure

and pain in the worldly context.  Of course, gross generalizations are unfortunate.

Best regards,

Bijoy Misra    

On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 6:46 AM, Ajit Gargeshwari <ajit.gar...@gmail.com> wrote:

As a side note to this debate This is a serious thought I had from many years. Wanted to know if such a thought had accrued to any one before. To have a national or probably an International committee to study ghosts, devils, rebirth, on claims of Saints and God men or women, on the law of Karma, all ritual practices human beliefs including vedic yajnas publish books and papers an disseminate it all interested public. The committee can experts from all walks of life. This committee of experts may probably answer and settle these aid old question daunting mankind for thousands of years instead of knee jerk reaction which we often see.

Regards

Ajit Gargeshwari

 

From: Ajit Gargeshwari [mailto:ajit.gar...@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 6, 2016 3:52 PM
To: 'bvpar...@googlegroups.com'
Subject: RE: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Bhopal Gas Tragedy and Agnihotra

 

The focus of this thread was with specific focus on Bhopal Gas tragedy and Agni Hotra episode. Till one has verified and confirmed publications on efficacy of homas we all can keep an open mind and not post conclusions. Thanks

 

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Nagaraj Paturi
Sent: Saturday, August 6, 2016 2:44 PM
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Bhopal Gas Tragedy and Agnihotra

 

Just as fake allopathic doctors (called by several different names such as RMPs and their failing or harmful treatments can not disprove the efficacy of modern medicine, the fake Vedic scholars/practitioners such as the fake Sadhus/Swamis/Babas and their cheating tricks using methods such as havan can not disprove the efficacy of havans and yajnas made of havans.

On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 1:43 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

Aayushmaan Venkata Sriram's post on Bhopal gas tragedy and havan news, though was out of the blue, and though he himself considers the whole news activity around the case as just a hype, it triggered, rather revived the debate around the  usefulness of  havan and yajna made of that brick. The case of the family saved during the tragedy is just a data, a fact. Role of havan in the family's surviving the tragedy is an open issue for investigation. Both the ideas of 'havan had a role in the survival''  , 'havan had no role in the survival'' are not supported by any research.

 

Validity of usefulness of havan and yajna is independent of this open to investigation, not yet resolved case.  

On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 1:25 PM, Ajit Gargeshwari <ajit.gar...@gmail.com> wrote:

I agree with what you say there is no doubt. One may continue to believe the again hotra episode of Bhopal gas tragedy and I have no objection to any ones belief.

 

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

--

Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

--

Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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[Bijoy Misra]

Ajitji,

But the committee members cannot be pure secular scholars.

Verification of the claims is a function of appreciation through

practice.  Most the miracle baba-siddhis that are used to dupe 

people, should be banned by some government decree.

The Kumbha mela does empower people.  The question can 

be how?   The Gaya Panda dupes people.  Innocents can

be rescued from the latter.  Thousands of scientists join

congregations on Sundays to hear that Jesus got up and 

walked away!  Nobody complains.

You have a point.  But you have to think more to understand

the psychology that drives faith.  We can be amused bystanders

or experiment it ourselves.  So is my thought.

BM

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

--

Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

--

Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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[Ajit Gargeshwari]

I had suggested that the committee member can have people from all walks of life.  You say “Most the miracle baba-siddhis that are used to dupe people, should be banned by some government decree.” How will a criteria be arrived at? What will be the methodology. What differentiates harmful superstitious beliefs with that ancients had with Good faiths and beliefs which are universal all such issues and all issues which are not proved can be debated there.

 

 

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bijoy Misra
Sent: Saturday, August 6, 2016 5:49 PM
To: Bharatiya Vidvat parishad
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Bhopal Gas Tragedy and Agnihotra

 

Ajitji,

 

But the committee members cannot be pure secular scholars.

Verification of the claims is a function of appreciation through

practice.  Most the miracle baba-siddhis that are used to dupe 

people, should be banned by some government decree.

The Kumbha mela does empower people.  The question can 

be how?   The Gaya Panda dupes people.  Innocents can

be rescued from the latter.  Thousands of scientists join

congregations on Sundays to hear that Jesus got up and 

walked away!  Nobody complains.

 

You have a point.  But you have to think more to understand

the psychology that drives faith.  We can be amused bystanders

or experiment it ourselves.  So is my thought.

 

BM

On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 8:03 AM, Ajit Gargeshwari <ajit.gar...@gmail.com> wrote:

As there is confusion so are such researches which create more doubts and don’t clearly say they are not dealing with physical issues. Not physical issues many a times subjective issues with very less objectivity in mind. Such papers and researcher must clearly state such researches are a just are hypothesis or a possibility instead they don’t do that. Most of the people who publish such researches on Homa therapy yagnic efficiency ESP levitation higher aspects of Samadhi for instance Nirvikalpa Samadhi, Past life regressions, levitation Mantra siddhi. Western mysticism, Black magic Yogic powers etc. are not most of the times qualified to speak either about the science or about non physical subject matter. We have thousands or popular book in the market but very less serious academic books or papers. Hence I suggested such a committee should be formed which can settle once and for all such claims with an open mind. Why shy away from impartial question and challenging which our culture is so open to.. I am not giving a time frame for such a committee to arrive at conclusions but an attempt can be made. The modalities and members of such a grand committee can be worked out.

 

Regards

Ajit Gargeshwari

 

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bijoy Misra
Sent: Saturday, August 6, 2016 5:19 PM
To: Bharatiya Vidvat parishad
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Bhopal Gas Tragedy and Agnihotra

 

Dear Ajitji and friends,

I think there is a confusion between the physical issues and the yogic manifestations.

Pranayama certainly has value, but instances of pure yogi are rare.  There is also 

some psychic sense, which has little physical explanation.  The modern science, for

convenience, abandons this since the tools don't exist to probe.  It would be more

pertinent if systematic work is done to understand the neural aspects of pleasure

and pain in the worldly context.  Of course, gross generalizations are unfortunate.

Best regards,

Bijoy Misra    

On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 6:46 AM, Ajit Gargeshwari <ajit.gar...@gmail.com> wrote:

As a side note to this debate This is a serious thought I had from many years. Wanted to know if such a thought had accrued to any one before. To have a national or probably an International committee to study ghosts, devils, rebirth, on claims of Saints and God men or women, on the law of Karma, all ritual practices human beliefs including vedic yajnas publish books and papers an disseminate it all interested public. The committee can experts from all walks of life. This committee of experts may probably answer and settle these aid old question daunting mankind for thousands of years instead of knee jerk reaction which we often see.

Regards

Ajit Gargeshwari

 

From: Ajit Gargeshwari [mailto:ajit.gar...@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 6, 2016 3:52 PM
To: 'bvpar...@googlegroups.com'
Subject: RE: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Bhopal Gas Tragedy and Agnihotra

 

The focus of this thread was with specific focus on Bhopal Gas tragedy and Agni Hotra episode. Till one has verified and confirmed publications on efficacy of homas we all can keep an open mind and not post conclusions. Thanks

 

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Nagaraj Paturi
Sent: Saturday, August 6, 2016 2:44 PM
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Bhopal Gas Tragedy and Agnihotra

 

Just as fake allopathic doctors (called by several different names such as RMPs and their failing or harmful treatments can not disprove the efficacy of modern medicine, the fake Vedic scholars/practitioners such as the fake Sadhus/Swamis/Babas and their cheating tricks using methods such as havan can not disprove the efficacy of havans and yajnas made of havans.

On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 1:43 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

Aayushmaan Venkata Sriram's post on Bhopal gas tragedy and havan news, though was out of the blue, and though he himself considers the whole news activity around the case as just a hype, it triggered, rather revived the debate around the  usefulness of  havan and yajna made of that brick. The case of the family saved during the tragedy is just a data, a fact. Role of havan in the family's surviving the tragedy is an open issue for investigation. Both the ideas of 'havan had a role in the survival''  , 'havan had no role in the survival'' are not supported by any research.

 

Validity of usefulness of havan and yajna is independent of this open to investigation, not yet resolved case.  

On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 1:25 PM, Ajit Gargeshwari <ajit.gar...@gmail.com> wrote:

I agree with what you say there is no doubt. One may continue to believe the again hotra episode of Bhopal gas tragedy and I have no objection to any ones belief.

 

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Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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[Bijoy Misra]

it has to be done like a social reform like to

abolition of sati, dowry, caste preference etc,

It would need laws through the legislature.

Scholars and counter-scholars would continue

to argue like the "climate change" issues.

But your idea is good. 

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

--

Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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[BVKSastry(Gmail)]

Namaste

 

On Bijoy Misra ji’s post:  reading < Pranayama – Physical issues and Yogic manifestations…   Instances  of Pure yogi’s … The modern science, for convenience, abandons this since the tools don't exist to probe. >. Then why  engage and  invoke science as a validation tool for ‘ Vedas ( and for that matter Ayur-Veda) : Which come under Yoga exploration as ‘Mantra –Experience’ and as a part of  ‘mystic tradition’? – An exercise that has been touted globally as hall mark of ‘ Verifying Ancient Indian Traditional Sciences’ ? – Both at India as well as Leading institutions abroad ?  What would then be ‘VEDIC SCIENCE (Veda- Vijnana) Research  denote ?   See links on research at : http://harvardguidetoyoga.com/ ; http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2013-11-22/harvard-yoga-scientists-find-proof-of-meditation-benefit ; http://harvardguidetoyoga.com/about  ?

 

On Bijoy Misra ji’s post:  reading   < It would be more pertinent if systematic work is done to understand the neural aspects of pleasure and pain in the worldly context >  .  Of course, < gross generalizations are unfortunate. >   The neural aspect of pleasure and pain is having the same qualitative issue as ‘Yoga’ related, namely  : Body-Mind-Psyche interaction and imprints measurement’.   Are there ‘tools and modeling’ in Sciences of Mind and Body,  to conduct the probe on ‘ Feelings: be it a pleasure or pain’.  The FMRI and advanced studies can provide tools to measure a ‘signal – travel and progress in the body-network’; but do they have the ‘sensitivity’ to differentiate the ‘ sensation of pleasure from pain’ ? Would the book - Molecules of Emotion: Why You Feel the Way You Feel, (Scribner, 1997) - Candace B. Pert Ph.D. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candace_Pert)  talking about the ‘biomolecular basis for our emotions  ‘  be a good starting point ? OR some writings   in Energy Medicine’    OR Explaining the experience of waiting for the bus – A boredom experience (http://inflexions.org/tangents/toronto/WAIT.pdf  ) . OR Selling Sickness: How Drug Companies are Turning Us All into Patients - Ray Moynihan ,  What Doctors Don't Get to Study in Medical School - (2014) - by B.M. Hegde ?

 

On Ajit Gargeswari’s post : reading < International committee to study ghosts, devils, rebirth, on claims of Saints and God men or women, on the law of Karma, all ritual practices human beliefs including vedic yajnas publish books and papers an disseminate it all interested public. The committee can experts from all walks of life. ..     >  You mean to say  one more society or  join hands and work with a society like -   http://www.ghostresearch.org/   ;  http://www.spiritualresearchfoundation.org/spiritual-research/ghosts/    ;   http://www.catholiceducation.org/en/culture/catholic-contributions/does-the-church-perform-exorcisms.html  ?

And how would this improve our knowledge of ‘ Yoga- Pranayama  - Bharateeya Vedic Science Research’  -  beyond the ‘Creative imagination’ already screened  in movies like Sagar’s classics and Sopas that entertain the late evening crowd in TV-shows ?    ( as ‘ Indian versions of Harry Potter /X-men) in several sops of Indian movies with snakes and semi-human beings ?

Would they answer the test set by Misra ji : < The modern science, for convenience, abandons this since the tools don't exist to probe  > ?

Regards

BVK Sastry

 

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bijoy Misra
Sent: Saturday, 06 August, 2016 7:49 AM
To: Bharatiya Vidvat parishad
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Bhopal Gas Tragedy and Agnihotra

 

Dear Ajitji and friends,

I think there is a confusion between the physical issues and the yogic manifestations. Pranayama certainly has value, but instances of pure yogi are rare.  There is also  some psychic sense, which has little physical explanation.  The modern science, for convenience, abandons this since the tools don't exist to probe.  It would be more pertinent if systematic work is done to understand the neural aspects of pleasure and pain in the worldly context.  Of course, gross generalizations are unfortunate.

Best regards,

Bijoy Misra    

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

The focus of this thread was on unverified claims made by some in the context Bhopal gas tragedy. Lets not club unverified claims with good and high quality researches being conducted in the areas of youga, Aurveda,ancient Indian sciences. As science students need a dose of arts so do arts students need a dose of science to bring in rationality. All this can go to the committee I suggested. The committee has no model and need not based or conceived on any existing committees. Its time for me to go to verified and good research being done in Sanskrit and India studies than to read and entered into protracted debates on isolated and unverified reporting.

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।

--

[sadasivamurty rani]

Pranams to all.

The Scientific pursuits related to Agnihotra may not be ruled out as superstitious stuff. The following studies made by some Indian and Western scientists and the on going studies by some other scientists affirm its scientific validity. I request you all to go through the following observations collected by me from various sources on this subject.

 

ITEMS AND HERBS TO BE OFFERED IN AGNIHOTRA IN DIFFERENT SEASONS

 

A few observations collected from different experiments undertaken by some foreign scientists and Indian scientists are given here for the appreciation of the members of BVP.

 

AgniHotra Havana Vidhi is not merely made up of mere Cow Dung Cakes. Some herbal and other ingredients are in prescribed proportion is to be offered to the Fire to get the required effect. The following are the Season wise items and herbs to be offered in Havana Vidhi according to Yajna Kalpa Treatises and Tantra Treatises.

VASANTA RTU

Charivali, Talisa patri, Patraja, Draksha, Lajjaati, Shitala Vini, Karpura, Devadaru, Amritavalli, Agaru, Granthi Zinc, Indraja, Guggulu, Chandan, Japatri, Jaji, Dhupasarali, Pushkara Mula, Kamala Bija, Manjishtha, Gandhaka chora, Udumbara sticks, Tej Bal, Sankha Pushti, Ground Neem, Cow Ghee and Khanda Sarkara in prescribed proportions are to be offered in the Agnihotra.

THE MAIN WOOD STICKS TO BE USED IN THIS SEASON ARE: DRY SAMI WOOD STICKS

 

GRISHMA RTU

Talaparni, Vayu Vingadam, Karpura, Sara, Tunga roots, Kalabankam, Charila, Satavari, Amritavalli, Dhupa saral, Lavanga, Gulabi Petals, Chandanam, Zink, Tumbar, Pugi, Talasa Patri, Padmakh, Red Sandal, Manjistha, Silaras, Jatamamsi, Netrabala, Big Elachi, Unnab, Khanda, Sarakara and Cow Ghee are the major items to be offered in Agnihotra in prescribed Proportions in this season.

THE MAIN WOOD STICKS TO BE USED IN THIS SEASON ARE: DRY SAMI WOOD STICKS

 

VARSHA RTU

Black Agaru, Indraja, Dhupa Saral, Zink, Devadar, Guggulu, Ral, Jati phal, Teja patri, Coconut, Karpura, Bilva, Jatamamsi, Small Ealachi, VAzsa, Amrita Valli, Tulasi and its roots, Vayu Vingadam, White Sandal Powder, Naga Kesaras, Ground Neem, Kharjura (Dates), Sakhahuli,  Long Cotton Gum, Neem Leaves, Khanda Sarkara and Cow Ghee are the major items to be offered in Agnihotra in prescribed Proportions in this season.

THE MAIN WOOD STICKS TO BE USED IN THIS SEASON ARE: DRY PALASA (Fire of Forest Tree) WOOD STICKS

 

SARAD RTU

White Sandal, Red Sandal, Yellow Sandal, Guggulu, Nagakesaras, Big Elachi, Amrita Valli, Sara, Udumbara Bark, White mustards, Gandhaka Boram, Long Cotton Gum, Parpatam (of Red or Blue flowers), Agaru, Bharangi, Indraja, Ashvagandha, Shital Bini, Jaji phal, Ptraja, Ground Neem, Draksha, Jatamamsi, Tali Makihana, Shadevi, Corn, Karpura, Sarkara and Cow Ghee are the major items to be offered in Agnihotra in prescribed Proportions in this season.

 

THE MAIN WOOD STICKS TO BE USED IN THIS SEASON ARE: DRY PALASA (Fire of Forest Tree) WOOD STICKS

 

HEMANTA RTU

Chengalva Koshtu, Kali Musali, Parpatam, Vasa (White), Karpura, Gandhaka Chora, Amritavalli, Bharangi, Sompu, Draksha, Guggulu, Akrot , Pushkara Mula, Dates, Badam, Yasthi Madhukam, Black Sesamums, Japatri, Red Sandal, Mushk Bal, Talisa Patri, Tumburu, Coconut, Sarakara, Dumpa Rashtra and Cow Ghee are the major items to be offered in Agnihotra in prescribed Proportions in this season.

.

THE MAIN WOOD STICKS TO BE USED IN THIS SEASON ARE: DRY MANGO WOOD STICKS

 

SHISHIRA RTU

Akrot, Gandhaka Chora, Vayu Vingandams, Big Elachi, Yashti Madhuka, Long Cotton Gum, Amritavalli, Draksha, Renuka, Black Sesamum, Teajasa Patri, Candanam, Ground Neem, Dates, Tulasi and its roots, Guggulu, Sara, Kakada Singi, Turmeric, Sankhapushpi,  Padmakh, Jatamamsi, Bhojapatra, Tumburu, Ral, Pugi, Sugar and Ghee are the major items to be offered in Agnihotra in prescribed Proportions in this season.

.

THE MAIN WOOD STICKS TO BE USED IN THIS SEASON ARE: DRY BANYAN WOOD STICKS

 

If the Volume of the Yajna and Havana is larger the quantities are to be proportionately increased.

Now what will happen by performing HAVANA with these items and herbs in the Agnihotra Process:

 

1. While Performing Agnihotra, the FIRE in the Altar maintains 200-300 Degrees Centigrade temperature. On the Top of the Altar 1000 Degrees Temperature is maintained. The Atomic Vapor of all the things offered to the FIRE mix with the Air and start travelling towards sky.

 

2. When the dry wood and herbs are burnt in the Agnihotra - Acetic acid, Methyl Alcohol, Methane, Acetone, Acetyl Dehyde and Naphtali contents are separated from the wood and herbs and merge with the air and spread in the surroundings.

 

3. Due to the heat of the Fire in the Altar - Guggulu, Camphor and other tree gums become Formal Dehyd, Turpentine, Tar and such and merge in the air.

 

4. The Fats or the triglycerides among the items offered when heated over the Agnihotra turn into Hydro Carbons.  From the Glycerol part of the items Acetone, Ferric Alde hide, Glycol Alde hide, Gly axel and such other things and merge in the air and produce methane, ethane profane, Butane, Ethylene, Acrylic Acid, Acetic Acid etc which also merge in the air.

 

 

These are a few to illustrate here. Besides these, due to various herbal and chemical substances offered in the Fire of the Altar the most powerful acids like Far sic Acid, Acetic Acid, Pyrolegniyes Acid, Propiyonic Acid and such other acids are produced from the Fire and purify the Air. These Acids and other chemical generated gasses allow for the formation of some Plasma which can sterilize the environment destroying all germs and protecting the environment free from all kinds of pollutions.

 

These are a few observations collected from various pursuits and practical studies on Agnihotra undertaken by some Indian and Western Scientists.

 

These studies and similar studies of this nature inspired Prof. Sai Gopal, Prof. Hussain and some other Scientists of the Atmospheric Department of Sri Venkateswara University to undertake further studies on Agnihotra. 

 Hope this information may be of some use for the enthusiasts of this subject.

Warm regards, 

Prof. Rani Sadasiva Murty

---

From: Ajit Gargeshwari <ajit.gar...@gmail.com>
To: भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत् <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, 8 August 2016 7:10 PM

Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Bhopal Gas Tragedy and Agnihotra

The focus of this thread was on unverified claims made by some in the context Bhopal gas tragedy. Lets not club unverified claims with good and high quality researches being conducted in the areas of youga, Aurveda,ancient Indian sciences. As science students need a dose of arts so do arts students need a dose of science to bring in rationality. All this can go to the committee I suggested. The committee has no model and need not based or conceived on any existing committees. Its time for me to go to verified and good research being done in Sanskrit and India studies than to read and entered into protracted debates on isolated and unverified reporting.

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।

On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 5:43 PM, BVKSastry(Gmail) <sastr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Namaste

 

On Bijoy Misra ji’s post:  reading < Pranayama – Physical issues and Yogic manifestations…   Instances  of Pure yogi’s … The modern science, for convenience, abandons this since the tools don't exist to probe. >. Then why  engage and  invoke science as a validation tool for ‘ Vedas ( and for that matter Ayur-Veda) : Which come under Yoga exploration as ‘Mantra –Experience’ and as a part of  ‘mystic tradition’? – An exercise that has been touted globally as hall mark of ‘ Verifying Ancient Indian Traditional Sciences’ ? – Both at India as well as Leading institutions abroad ?  What would then be ‘VEDIC SCIENCE (Veda- Vijnana) Research  denote ?   See links on research at : http://harvardguidetoyoga.com/ ; http://www.bloomberg.com/news/ articles/2013-11-22/harvard- yoga-scientists-find-proof-of- meditation-benefit ; http://harvardguidetoyoga.com/ about  ?

 

On Bijoy Misra ji’s post:  reading   < It would be more pertinent if systematic work is done to understand the neural aspects of pleasure and pain in the worldly context >  .  Of course, < gross generalizations are unfortunate. >   The neural aspect of pleasure and pain is having the same qualitative issue as ‘Yoga’ related, namely  : Body-Mind-Psyche interaction and imprints measurement’.   Are there ‘tools and modeling’ in Sciences of Mind and Body,  to conduct the probe on ‘ Feelings: be it a pleasure or pain’.  The FMRI and advanced studies can provide tools to measure a ‘signal – travel and progress in the body-network’; but do they have the ‘sensitivity’ to differentiate the ‘ sensation of pleasure from pain’ ? Would the book - Molecules of Emotion: Why You Feel the Way You Feel, (Scribner, 1997) - Candace B. Pert Ph.D. (https://en.wikipedia.org/ wiki/Candace_Pert)  talking about the ‘biomolecular basis for our emotions  ‘  be a good starting point ? OR some writings   in Energy Medicine’    OR Explaining the experience of waiting for the bus – A boredom experience (http://inflexions.org/ tangents/toronto/WAIT.pdf  ) . OR Selling Sickness: How Drug Companies are Turning Us All into Patients - Ray Moynihan ,  What Doctors Don't Get to Study in Medical School - (2014) - by B.M. Hegde ?

 

On Ajit Gargeswari’s post : reading < International committee to study ghosts, devils, rebirth, on claims of Saints and God men or women, on the law of Karma, all ritual practices human beliefs including vedic yajnas publish books and papers an disseminate it all interested public. The committee can experts from all walks of life. ..     >  You mean to say  one more society or  join hands and work with a society like -   http://www.ghostresearch. org/   ;  http://www. spiritualresearchfoundation. org/spiritual-research/ghosts/     ;   http://www.catholiceducation. org/en/culture/catholic- contributions/does-the-church- perform-exorcisms.html  ?

And how would this improve our knowledge of ‘ Yoga- Pranayama  - Bharateeya Vedic Science Research’  -  beyond the ‘Creative imagination’ already screened  in movies like Sagar’s classics and Sopas that entertain the late evening crowd in TV-shows ?    ( as ‘ Indian versions of Harry Potter /X-men) in several sops of Indian movies with snakes and semi-human beings ?

Would they answer the test set by Misra ji : < The modern science, for convenience, abandons this since the tools don't exist to probe  > ?

Regards

BVK Sastry

 

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvparishat@ googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bijoy Misra
Sent: Saturday, 06 August, 2016 7:49 AM
To: Bharatiya Vidvat parishad
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Bhopal Gas Tragedy and Agnihotra

 

Dear Ajitji and friends,

I think there is a confusion between the physical issues and the yogic manifestations. Pranayama certainly has value, but instances of pure yogi are rare.  There is also  some psychic sense, which has little physical explanation.  The modern science, for convenience, abandons this since the tools don't exist to probe.  It would be more pertinent if systematic work is done to understand the neural aspects of pleasure and pain in the worldly context.  Of course, gross generalizations are unfortunate.

Best regards,

Bijoy Misra    

 

On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 6:46 AM, Ajit Gargeshwari <ajit.gar...@gmail.com> wrote:

As a side note to this debate This is a serious thought I had from many years. Wanted to know if such a thought had accrued to any one before. To have a national or probably an International committee to study ghosts, devils, rebirth, on claims of Saints and God men or women, on the law of Karma, all ritual practices human beliefs including vedic yajnas publish books and papers an disseminate it all interested public. The committee can experts from all walks of life. This committee of experts may probably answer and settle these aid old question daunting mankind for thousands of years instead of knee jerk reaction which we often see.

Regards

Ajit Gargeshwari

 

 

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[sunil bhattacharjya]

Namaste Raniji,

Many people perform regular havana using cowdung cakes and not the samidha and the herbs. To investigate what happened in Bhopal, we have to ascertain what the people used at the time of the Bhopal gas leakage. Hope you will agree.

Regards,

skb

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[sadasivamurty rani]

Sunil Ji,

Pranams. Thanks Sir, for acknowledging my efforts and exercise in this thread. In the Agnihotra normally along with cow dung we offer the dry stick pieces of Peepal Tree or Udumbara Tree or Palasa Tree in Andhra Pradesh even in Nitya Agnihotra. 

Yes Sir. I agree with you. " To investigate what happened in Bhopal, we have to ascertain what the people used at the time of the Bhopal gas leakage."

 Warm Regards, 

Prof. Rani Sadasiva Murty

---

From: sunil bhattacharjya <skbhatt...@gmail.com>
To: BHARATIYA VIDVAT <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 9 August 2016 7:53 AM

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

> The focus of this thread was on unverified claims made by some in the context Bhopal gas tragedy.

---- In fact two unverified claims : 1. Havan was responsible for the family not getting affected

                                            2. Havan was not responsible for the family not getting affected.

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

What needs to be verified, first of all, is whether it is part of the beliefs /knowledge system of agnihotra /havan or yajnas made of agnihotra /havan that agnihotra / havan has the function of counteracting, in real time, the poisonous gases spread around the locale of agnihotra /havan.

To my knowledge, traditionally , there has been no such idea in the belief system /knowledge system of agnihotra /havan or yajnas made of agnihotra /havan.  

[sunil bhattacharjya]

Dear scholar friends,

Further to what has been mentioned earlier, one has to find out is, if any sort of mapping projection (however accurate or inaccurate) had been done in Bhopal  to find out the maximum possible concentration of the lethal gases at different places at different distances from the source of the gas-leakage, at different points of time from the time when the gas leakage started.  That would give an idea as to the sort of lethal gas concentrations around the individual houses at different locations at different times from the time of the gas-leakage. This is however is not a simple job as the wind velocities and wind directions as well as the obstructions like tall buildings on the wind-path will have to be considered besides the topographic details of the land as well as the building heights, for the individual houses considered.

Without any such detailed scientific evaluation, any comment on the usefulness or otherwise of the  Agnihotra performed at the affected places, will not be useful.

Regards,

skb

[sadasivamurty rani]

Pranams to all. 

Here I give two instances from two different different sources of ancient Indian belief/knowledge system which support the virtues of the clouds formed from the performance of Yajna. 

YAJNA AND RAINS HAVE CYCLIC RELATION

अधो हि वर्षाम वयं मर्त्याश्चोर्ध्व प्रवर्षिण:॥ ४०॥

तोयवर्षेण हि वयं हविर्वर्षेण मानवा:।

येऽस्मभ्यं न प्रयच्छन्ति नित्यनैमित्तिका: क्रिया:॥४१॥

क्रतुभागं दुरात्मान: स्वयं वाश्नन्ति लॊलुपा:।

विनाशाय वयं तेषां तोयसूर्याग्निमारुतान्॥४२॥

क्षितिं च संदूषयाम: पापानामवतारिणाम्।

दुष्टतोयादिभोगेन तेषां दुष्कृतकारिणाम् ॥४३॥

उपसर्गा: प्रवर्तन्ते मरणा सुदारुणा:॥४४॥

                                                      - मार्कण्डेयपुराणे १५ अध्याये

This is in the context of the Team of the Chiefs of Parjanya region speaking about the two way rain in the following manner:

We shower rains from the aerial path and the humans shower rains in abundance from the earth towards the sky (40). 

While we shower the rains of water the humans shower the rains of Havis. Those who ignore to offer us Havis through their daily and occasional rituals being wicked minded and eat with greed and selfishness will meet destruction as we pollute the waters, the Sun, the Fire, the winds and even the Earth. Those sinful people having drunk the polluted waters as a result of their ill deeds will meat with dreadful death and calamities. (42, 43 and 44 slokas)

Thus this instance emphasizes on the performance of Agnihotra through Nitya and Naimittika rituals in order to get rains from the celestial regions. As the first two lines of the above citation suggest such performance of rituals also should not be a stray instance but should be collectively and in huge quantities.  (अधो हि वर्षाम वयं मर्त्याश्चोर्ध्व प्रवर्षिण:॥ ४०॥तोयवर्षेण हि वयं हविर्वर्षेण मानवा:।)

SMOKE RAIN RELATION

यज्ञधूमोद्भवं चापि प्रजानां हितकृत्सदा।

दावाग्निधूमसम्भूतमभ्रं वनहितं स्मृतम्॥४०॥

मृतधूमोद्भवंत्वभ्रं अशुभाय भविष्यति।

अभिचाराग्निधूमोत्थं भूतनाशाय वै द्विजा:॥

एवं धूमविशेषेण जगतां वै हिता हितम्।

तस्मदाच्छादयेद्धूमं अभिचारकृतं नर:॥४२॥-          इति लिंगपुराणे ५४ अध्याय

This instance gives us various sources of cloud formation. Here FOUR types of sources for the formation of the clouds are specified with their respective consequences.

1.  The clouds formed from the smoke emitted from the Ritualistic Altars (Yajnas) are always for the well being of human beings. 2. The cloud formed from the  smoke emitted from the Forest Fire is favourable to the entire forest. (40)

3. The cloud formed from the smoke emitted from burning of corpse is inauspicious to all. 4. The cloud formed from the smoke emitted from the evil deeds of sorcerers is destructive of all beings. (41)

Thus depending on variance of the smoke the good and bad of the world is decided. Hence one should strictly prohibit the smoke that is emitted from the sorcerers' deeds. 

In this manner there are more than hundred Vedic, Pauranic and Agamic instances of Agnihotra's role in environmental purification in my collection.

Whatsoever  the name such as ANCIENT INDIAN BELEIF SYSTEMS/KNOWLEDGE SYSTEMS  may be given to this kind of thoughts, I can firmly  say that there are hundreds of quotes in Vedic and Pauranic literature. 

We are all very seriously working in these areas too. 

Regards, 

Prof. Rani Sadasiva Murty

---

From: Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com>
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 9 August 2016 11:20 AM

--

Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

--

Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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[Ajit Gargeshwari]

These citations you have given are translation of a few puranic passages which is good as far as the story, importance of yajna in the mythological settings. They are not to be considered as demonstrable scientific evidences. This can be considered as ancient Indian belief systems not as ancient Indian scientific systems. Quoting from Vedas and puranas may not help until one sees ancient Indian texts where there are records of systematic investigations on the efficiency of Homas and Havans in the context of poisonous gases. I am not aware of any such texts either in print or manuscripts. If there please guide me to those texts. I am aware Mimasikas and traditional commentators interpretations . They have not written that performance havans and homas act as shield against poisonous and toxic gases .

 

Regards

Ajit Gargeshwari

[Dr. Yadu Moharir]

Dear Dr. Sadasivamurty Rani

I have some additional question that I will reach out to you off-line.

Thanks sharing the info.

Rgds

Dr Yadu

---

From: 'sadasivamurty rani' via भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत् <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
To: "bvpar...@googlegroups.com" <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2016 8:24 AM

[sadasivamurty rani]

Dear Ajit Ji,

As far as I have been studying our ancient Indian knowledge sources of any positive sciences are five fold:

1. Vedas 2. Puranas and Itihasas 3. Independent Treatises 4. Interdisciplinary References and 5. Kavyas.

 In all these FIVE areas either explicitly or suggestively the scientific knowledge has been transmitted from one generation to the next till it reached us. 

I request you to read my previous mail once again. Nowhere I ventured to call them practicable scientific evidences (Demostrable scientific evidences in your words). But I left the choice to the readers to call them either belief system or knowledge system.

Further to say , Puranas give many aspects of various branches of knowledge through many stories. There the story line never bears any importance but the knowledge aspects given there in bear the validity. Hence many great commentators and scholars of  ancient lore respected the pauranic knowledge accounts with highest worth of being valid. 

It took me nearly four decades to collect a good amount of scientific content pertaining to nearly 20 branches of sciences from the above five heads of sources. 

I cannot go on quoting what all is in my possession to convince you all being conditioned by many constraints such as Space, Time, Energies etc.

One thing here I would like to say in this context: During recent times I have been mostly a silent participant in BVParishat because of my work pressure in many other accepted - ongoing - practical projects.

Only two things that made me to participate in this present thread:

1.  Yadu ji's generalized statement about the Indians.

2.  A statement in the recent postings in this thread: "What needs to be verified, first of all, is whether it is part of the beliefs /knowledge system of agnihotra /havan or yajnas made of agnihotra /havan that agnihotra / havan has the function of counteracting, in real time, the poisonous gases spread around the locale of agnihotra /havan."

DHUPANA PROCESS: This Dhupana Process is not any part of Puranas or Mythological accounts but is a part of Sushruta Samhita and other texts on Ayurveda where they recommend to perform DHUPANA PROCESS before starting any surgical treatment in an operation theater of ancient times. They very clearly say that this DHUPANA PROCESS helps us in killing many poisonous elements such as micro poisonous organisms that pervade through AIR in the surroundings.

In this DHUPANA PROCESS the items used like CAMPHOR, GUGGULU, TURMERIC and other selective herbs are mostly similar to those used in HAVANA.

All these require some special attention to be paid at least to appreciate our predecessors' admirable contribution to various fields of knowledge are to pass on these precious things to our future generations. 

If I  become silent further, please don't think that I am reluctant to participate further in this thread but I have to work 20 hours a day to attend and finish the other tasks at hand to be delivered to my other associates. 

Warm regards,  

Prof. Rani Sadasiva Murty

---

From: Ajit Gargeshwari <ajit.gar...@gmail.com>

To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 10 August 2016 9:41 PM
Subject: RE: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Bhopal Gas Tragedy and Agnihotra

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

I am highly appreciative and thank you for this mail. I am for and I agree with scientific material in Vedas and all our Sastras there so denying. The place our Vedas and Shastras do occupy in the context Indian historic, religious cultural studies need no mention. I am not foolish to let go evidences and profound work done by you and other great scholars.

 

I am yet to see any connection between this information and the unverified claims made by someone in the context of Bhopal Gas Tragedy. This has been my consistent argument from the beginning on this thread. I see no reason to change my view as I am yet see any connection as evidences beyond doubt.

 

Thank you it’s been indeed a privilege for me and am sure will act as an eye opener to many young students on this list. I hope more such information is shared in this list for the benefit of all list members.

[Nagaraj Paturi]

>Only two things that made me to participate in this present thread:

..................................................................................................................................

2.  A statement in the recent postings in this thread: "What needs to be verified, first of all, is whether it is part of the beliefs /knowledge system of agnihotra /havan or yajnas made of agnihotra /havan that agnihotra / havan has the function of counteracting, in real time, the poisonous gases spread around the locale of agnihotra /havan."

DHUPANA PROCESS: This Dhupana Process is not any part of Puranas or Mythological accounts but is a part of Sushruta Samhita and other texts on Ayurveda where they recommend to perform DHUPANA PROCESS before starting any surgical treatment in an operation theater of ancient times. They very clearly say that this DHUPANA PROCESS helps us in killing many poisonous elements such as micro poisonous organisms that pervade through AIR in the surroundings.

In this DHUPANA PROCESS the items used like CAMPHOR, GUGGULU, TURMERIC and other selective herbs are mostly similar to those used in HAVANA.

Since the statement quoted under 2 above is mine,

 let me clarify 

Sir, as always, you are attempting to fight your co-soldiers who fighting on your side of the war are strongly working to

 "appreciate our predecessors' admirable contribution to various fields of knowledge are to pass on these precious things to our future generations."

I was talking about Bhopal gas tragedy type situation and was trying to defend the agnihotra /havan believers by saying that the

using that incident and the related claims to defame agnihotra/havan tradition is unfair because neutralizing MIC type lethal poisons through agnihotra/havan is not claimed in the tradition.

If your point is that others should not defend the tradition that you want to defend, I leave the ground to you, with a wholehearted belief that tradition is in safe hands, I need not unnecessarily poke my nose.    

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[sadasivamurty rani]

Respected Nagaraj Garu,

My expected fear has come true. It is no doubt that those are your lines that made me to participate in this thread. But it is not with any intention to declare war against a respected scholar like you but with a mere intention to trace out any such references from our belief system in support of the Agnihotra's use in environmental purification. As a result some of the passages that I came across I presented here.

Pranams,

RANI SADASIVA MURTY

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

I forgot to thank you for bringing references of fumigation as a theatre-sanitizing method from the texts on Ayurveda.

This certainly adds to the understanding of agnihotra/homa from the point of view of efficacy of smoke .

You are such a fund of knowledge that no discussion by zealots like me can be complete without sitting at the feet of aacharyas like you.

I just wanted to tell you that we were on the same page.  

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[Jayanthi Manohar]

My request to the scholars to go through a book called "Secrets of The Soil''  by Peter Hopkins & Chris Bird, a Harper publication (1989), which  contains a chapter called  ""Purified with Fire''.   They give a   report of  a practice of  Agnihotra which they term as  ""a Cleansing Ceremony with Fire'' 

 

Here is an exerpt from that book:

 

The ancient science of Agnihotra - the Cleansing Ceremony

Numerous efforts are being made to examine the  efficacy  of performing different  rituals  in yajnas  with the modern scientific techniques in different parts of  India  both on a larger  as well as on a smaller scale.  Such efforts of scientists  have attracted the attention from  other parts of the World and many such attempts are being made in different countries to measure the positive effects produced by the sacrificial rituals on the atmosphere  to improve the quality of life on Earth.

 

A detailed account of the Performance of Agnihotra by some farmers  in U.S.A.  is mentioned  in a book  called  "Secrets of The Soil''  by Peter Hopkins & Chris Bird, a Harper publication (1989), which  contains a chapter called  ""Purified with Fire''.   They give a   report of  a practice of  Agnihotra which they term as  ""a Cleansing Ceremony with Fire''  in U.S.A and other countries  for purification of atmosphere which  can bring down the negative effect of toxins in the soil as well as the   radio-activity  in  atmosphere caused by nuclear disasters.

 

Further, the authors  have mentioned  that  they received a report from  a group of scientists  who were experimenting to check the effects of Agnihotra  in Rovini, Yugoslavia.   Their interest had been aroused by the discovery that, after they had burned the required ingredients in a copper pyramid, their instruments failed to pick up radio-activity in the immediate area, an anomaly since the Chernobyl nuclear disaster, which irradiated, along with large parts of Europe, even their small Adriatic sea-port on the Istrian peninsula in the province of Croatia.  The Yugoslavs   also learned that groups of  Indian origin  living within the borderlands of the Soviet Union who used dried cow dung to seal their huts were unaffected by the radio-active contamination.   They also add that they were invited by the Soviet Union authorities to demonstrate the process of Agnihotra in the hope that it may be of value to its citizens.

 

The article gives a detailed account of how  the mission of spreading Agnihotra to clean up the planet from toxins was started by Sri. Vasant Paranjape who came to Washington D.C. in 1972. He had travelled  all over the country, and all through South America, Asia, Europe and Africa.  The  local farmers  who are   practitioners of Agnihotra  were happy everywhere, with the success of raising their crops with Agnihotra ash, or "miracle dust' as they chose to call it.  He has recorded that the key ingredients of Agnihotra ash are cowdung, ghee, rice and balsam or sandal wood along with an inverted copper ziggurat (an inverted pyramid with flat base).  The dried cow dung is placed in an inverted copper pyramid, the size of a monk's begging bowl stepped like a ziggurat, along with a spoonful of ghee, a handful of rice and a pinch of redolent sandalwood.  This strange assortment is set ablaze to the accompaniment of mantras chanted in Sanskrit, as curling pearl-grey smoke rises from lapping red-and-blue flames to purify  the surrounding atmosphere, miraculously increasing the quantity and quality of fruits and vegetables grown in the area.

 

The  main object of the exercise, according to Mr. Brown, an ardent  follower of  Agnihotra is to heal and improve the land rather than pollute and destroy it with chemical poisons and thoughtless farming practices.  He explains the vedic technique of   yajna  as a process   of purification of the atmosphere through the agency of Fire.  The  yajna is tuned to rhythms of Nature to radiation effects, to astronomical combination.  He says that ""it injects nutrients into the atmosphere.   The smoke gathers particles of harmful radiation in the atmosphere and neutralizes their effect at a subtle level.  Nothing is destroyed, only changed.  A powerful change takes place in Universal  pr¢´a - the Life Energy that pulsates through us and connects us with the cosmos - creating a healing effect on body and mind.  It also leads to a better absorption of the Sun's rays by the water resources of planet.   Fire produces out of a normal state of matter an ideal state, which allows energy transformation at a different level.  Bursts of Energy emanate from the Agnihotra, depending on the phase of the Moon and the position of the Earth in relation to the Sun.''

 

 Dr.Jayanthi Manohar

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

A Note on his Other book The Secret Life of Nature: Living in Harmony With the Hidden World of Nature Spirits from Fairies to Quarks
"The long-awaited follow-up to Peter Tompkins's bestseller THE SECRET LIFE OF PLANTS is an astonishing account of how spiritualists and scientists alike are revealing that the physical world teems with nature spirits. In a dramatic meeting of New Science and New Age, Tompkins's new book is sure to radically transform how readers perceive and treat the natural world around them. Index. 20 photos & drawings."

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।

[Dr.Jayanthi Manohsr]

Sent from my ASUS

[sunil bhattacharjya]

Namaste Prof. Rani Sadasiva Murtyji,

Yes, I have seen the Dhupan, a regular evening fumigation procedure, even in many households in the eastern part of India and that is mainly to drive away the mosquitoes. After the fumigation of the house and the fumes are allowed to escape.  After the fumes have dissipated, the doors and windows of the house are closed to maintain the house mosquito-free. While there may be  detoxification / sanitization effect of the fumigation, as pointed out by you, one has to be careful about allowing the fumes to escape, so that prolonged exposure to fumes does not take place. Otherwise the remains the possibility of the  Lungs being badly affected. The havan should also be done only on a ventilated place and not in closed environment, considering the hazard-aspect of the long exposure to fumes. The Yajnas perfomed in public places are always in a ventilated space, with adequate provision for the fumes to escape.

Regards,

skb

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[Ajit Gargeshwari]

Exactly you have hit the point Sunil ji, I would like to know scientific studies conducted or patients having respiratory ailments in such an environment.

Regards

Ajit Gargeshwari

 

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of sunil bhattacharjya
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 9:10 PM
To: BHARATIYA VIDVAT
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Bhopal Gas Tragedy and Agnihotra

 

Namaste Prof. Rani Sadasiva Murtyji,

Regards,

skb

 

 

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

>Exactly you have hit the point Sunil ji, I would like to know scientific studies conducted or patients having respiratory ailments in such an environment.

 

DHUPANA PROCESS: This Dhupana Process is not any part of Puranas or Mythological accounts but is a part of Sushruta Samhita and other texts on Ayurveda where they recommend to perform DHUPANA PROCESS before starting any surgical treatment in an operation theater of ancient times. They very clearly say that this DHUPANA PROCESS helps us in killing many poisonous elements such as micro poisonous organisms that pervade through AIR in the surroundings.

 Its mentioned as a pre-surgical room-readying procedure. There is no description of smokes sent on to a patient or the room with a patient inside being filled with smokes.

 

The room is not prescribed to be closed anywhere in the description.

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[BVKSastry(Gmail)]

Namaste

 

On < fumigation as a theatre-sanitizing method from the texts on Ayurveda >  , < efficacy of smoke  > ,   < our belief system in support of the Agnihotra's use in environmental purification    > ,  <  of Sushruta Samhita and other texts on Ayurveda where they recommend to perform DHUPANA PROCESS before starting any surgical treatment in an operation theater of ancient times >  

 

A)  The scale of ‘Bhopal Gas Tragedy  is of a much larger scale than what comes under the ambit of  ‘Agnihotra- Havan’ generated ‘smoke /fumigation protection.  The gasses in Bhopal Tragedy and the gaseous fumigation products from a Havana  are chemically of different order and may not neutralize or nullify the effects of each other  ‘chemically’.  Therefore, the  ‘ generalization by assumptions on the similarity of ‘gaseous nature of substances’ is not enough to clear the question raised by Dr. Yadu.

 

B)  There are chemical studies on the nature of ‘ fumigation products that come up in the limited context of ‘ Havan-Agnihotra’  by reputed scientists; some references listed below. The issue is an ‘ ongoing research’ with several dimensions of  interest by many nations with the top-line concern  on ‘Safety in Gaseous Chemical hazardous environment’.  If  ‘Agnihotra’  can prove even as a limited remedy to address this concern, Vedic Sciences can get a big boost.

 

Science and Technology in Ancient Indian Texts Hardcover  – March 1, 2012 –Dr. BalramSingh ;

Science and Technology in Ancient Indian Texts Hardcover  – March 1, 2012 – Dr. Alok Kumar  

 

C)  Coming to <  Fumigation in a Operation Theater as a preparation for Surgical procedure> , the medical standards are fairly well established and internationally practiced.  There are many fumigation procedures. Unless there is a positive study to establish ‘Agnihotra- Havan fumigation / smoke particles outputs’ to  contain ‘  what is expected of in a < surgical theater fumigation procedure>, there is no reason to make extended claims. May be this can be a research topic for interdisciplinary study.

 

      A Google search with the words – ‘ OT sterilization protocol fumigation> provides enough articles from medical literature.  The fumigation of operation theater is to cleanse the environment  and tools; but it is not meant as any ‘  medicine value item in surgery –treatment –recovery’ as claimed in the ‘ benefits  from Agni-hotra’.  The  Fumigation Procedure from  http://www.themicrobiologyblog.com/2009/08/operation-theater-sterilization-by.html reads :

 

      <   Formaldehyde vapor is an extremely effective biocidal agent. It acts as an alkylating agent, inactivating micro-organisms by reacting with carboxyl, amino, hydroxyl and sulphydral groups of proteins as well as amino groups of nucleic acid bases. Fumigation is effective at above the temperature of 20ºC and relative humidity of 65%.

Formalin is commercially available as 40% solution of formaldehyde in water. When formalin is heated formaldehyde vapor is generated. Formaldehyde is a Schedule 1 chemical under the COSHH (Control of Substances Hazardous to Health) Regulations and has a Maximum Exposure Limit (MEL) of 2 ppm. But, concentrations encountered during fumigation is many hundred times higher than this, so fumigation procedure must be carried out only by trained personnel under strictly defined conditions. All workers using formaldehyde must be aware of safe handling procedures.

Under certain conditions formaldehyde can react with hydrochloric acid and chlorine containing disinfectants such as hypochlorites to form chlormethyl ether, a potent lung carcinogen. So hydrochloric acid and chlorine-containing disinfectants must be removed from the room before fumigation. >

 

Also see: http://www.aios.org/guidelinesendoph.pdf   ; http://www.who.int/surgery/publications/OrganizationManagement.pdf

 In short, the cleaning of a vessel ( =Surgical Theater and tools sterility)   is a prerequisite for healthy cooking ( = Surgery procedures) ; but cleaning of vessel is not a guarantee for tasty quality food output.  

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

Thank you for these references. I agree with application Dhupana process and allied methods in Aurvedic therapy.

 

There can be no fumes coming out of any Agni hotra rituals performed by people with belief can neutralise cyanide  or methyl isocyanate (MIC) gas that was leaked in Bhopal Gas Tragedy.

I am open for corrections if any documented research papers or books are available that can prove contrary to the stand I have taken

Rest everything else you have pointed out I agree

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[sunil bhattacharjya]

Dear Scholars of this forum,

The Methyi isocyanate is  toxic above 0,02 ppm (parts per million) in air and a concentraion of 3 ppm and higher is dangerous for health. Moreover Methyl isocyatae is heavier than air and that is why it is considerable more dangerous to have methyl isocyanate-polluted air around a low-lying houses and more so if the houses are closed.

It could be that the households  in Bhopal (where people survived apparently due to performing the havans) could have been located at higher elevations and it could also be that the windows in those houses were kept open to let out the smoke, which could  could have prevented accumulation of the heavier Methyl isocyanate gas within the houses. If anybody wants to investigate anew the cases, where the people survived in Bhopal. the above aspects also must be considered. There are many factors, which need to be looked at the Bhopal gas tragedy in order to assess if and  how the performers of havans averted the tragedy, and not jump into any hasty conclusion.

Regards,

skb

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Dear Vidwans of the list,

Did any one in this thread so far conclude that Havan saved the family from the poisonous effects of MIC ?

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Prof. Roddam Narasimham, in

http://www.currentscience.ac.in/Volumes/108/04/0471.pdf

that was shared in an earlier thread on BVP said,

The third controversy concerns plastic surgery, which  seems to have been driven in several parts of the world  by the need to repair broken noses (apparently an ancient  and common punishment worldwide), cleft lips, etc. The  first records go back to Egypt in 3000–2500 BCE. In the  6th century BCE, Suśruta consolidated Indic ayurvedic  knowledge in an encyclopaedic and foundational text called the Suśruta Samhita. This included the practice of  plastic surgery, in which India clearly remained well  ahead of the rest of the world. Thus the first major rhinoplasty  in modern West was performed as late as 1815 by  a British surgeon who had served in India for 20 years,  and was triggered by British press reports about how  Maratha soldiers who had lost their noses in the Anglo- Mysore wars were surgically set right in Pune. There was  no European competition to so-called ‘Indian Nose’, so  Indic claims on plastic surgery seem to be on solid  ground.

 

 Prof. Rani, in the present thread, added that the same book has pre-surgical procedures too. Relevance of that information to this thread is that the procedures included use of smokes (presumably for securing the room from the atmospheric pathogens)

There was neither a mention of tool cleaning nor was there a claim that the 21st century international standards were maintained.

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

This is exactly that been happening on this thread. Instead of pointing to evidences related to the threads topic, there are several posts from guardians of Havanic tradition parading continuously information related good effects havan smoke can have quoting all sorts of puranaic vedic, aurvedic texts books, links or articles which have no references to Bhopal Gas Tragedy or have established conclusion beyond reasonable doubt on poisonous Effect of MIC and Homas will neutralises effects of MIC and hence a family was saved.

Regards

Ajit Gargeshwari

 

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Nagaraj Paturi
Sent: Friday, August 12, 2016 6:36 AM
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Bhopal Gas Tragedy and Agnihotra

 

Dear Vidwans of the list,

 

Did any one in this thread so far conclude that Havan saved the family from the poisonous effects of MIC ?

 

 

On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 5:23 AM, sunil bhattacharjya <skbhatt...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Scholars of this forum,

The Methyi isocyanate is  toxic above 0,02 ppm (parts per million) in air and a concentraion of 3 ppm and higher is dangerous for health. Moreover Methyl isocyatae is heavier than air and that is why it is considerable more dangerous to have methyl isocyanate-polluted air around a low-lying houses and more so if the houses are closed.

It could be that the households  in Bhopal (where people survived apparently due to performing the havans) could have been located at higher elevations and it could also be that the windows in those houses were kept open to let out the smoke, which could  could have prevented accumulation of the heavier Methyl isocyanate gas within the houses. If anybody wants to investigate anew the cases, where the people survived in Bhopal. the above aspects also must be considered. There are many factors, which need to be looked at the Bhopal gas tragedy in order to assess if and  how the performers of havans averted the tragedy, and not jump into any hasty conclusion.

Regards,

skb

On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 11:09 AM, Ajit Gargeshwari <ajit.gar...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thank you for these references. I agree with application Dhupana process and allied methods in Aurvedic therapy.

 

There can be no fumes coming out of any Agni hotra rituals performed by people with belief can neutralise cyanide  or methyl isocyanate (MIC) gas that was leaked in Bhopal Gas Tragedy.

I am open for corrections if any documented research papers or books are available that can prove contrary to the stand I have taken

Rest everything else you have pointed out I agree

 

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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[Ajit Gargeshwari]

I still remember a stance taken by  a few list members a couple of years back that our Vedas talk about quantum mechanics and even tried to argue about the relevance of this ridiculous book Quest of Creation higgs god Particles and Vedas . Ancient Indians had made good progress in science That does not mean one should start extrapolating and twisting data and prove matters which cannot be proved beyond doubt and call it research and say accept this research else you are anti Indian or not a defender of our culture. This same logic hold about Indian Astrology. Still many respectable scholars believe astrology should be made compulsory and if all learn and appreciate astrology it will solve the malice facing society. Please note I am for making systematic investigation on astrological texts.

 

Regards

Ajit Gargeshwari

 

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Nagaraj Paturi
Sent: Friday, August 12, 2016 7:52 AM
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Bhopal Gas Tragedy and Agnihotra

 

Prof. Roddam Narasimham, in

 

http://www.currentscience.ac.in/Volumes/108/04/0471.pdf

 

that was shared in an earlier thread on BVP said,

 

The third controversy concerns plastic surgery, which  seems to have been driven in several parts of the world  by the need to repair broken noses (apparently an ancient  and common punishment worldwide), cleft lips, etc. The  first records go back to Egypt in 3000–2500 BCE. In the  6th century BCE, Suśruta consolidated Indic ayurvedic  knowledge in an encyclopaedic and foundational text called the Suśruta Samhita. This included the practice of  plastic surgery, in which India clearly remained well  ahead of the rest of the world. Thus the first major rhinoplasty  in modern West was performed as late as 1815 by  a British surgeon who had served in India for 20 years,  and was triggered by British press reports about how  Maratha soldiers who had lost their noses in the Anglo- Mysore wars were surgically set right in Pune. There was  no European competition to so-called ‘Indian Nose’, so  Indic claims on plastic surgery seem to be on solid  ground.

 

 Prof. Rani, in the present thread, added that the same book has pre-surgical procedures too. Relevance of that information to this thread is that the procedures included use of smokes (presumably for securing the room from the atmospheric pathogens)

 

There was neither a mention of tool cleaning nor was there a claim that the 21st century international standards were maintained.

 

 

On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 6:35 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Vidwans of the list,

 

Did any one in this thread so far conclude that Havan saved the family from the poisonous effects of MIC ?

 

 

On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 5:23 AM, sunil bhattacharjya <skbhatt...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Scholars of this forum,

The Methyi isocyanate is  toxic above 0,02 ppm (parts per million) in air and a concentraion of 3 ppm and higher is dangerous for health. Moreover Methyl isocyatae is heavier than air and that is why it is considerable more dangerous to have methyl isocyanate-polluted air around a low-lying houses and more so if the houses are closed.

It could be that the households  in Bhopal (where people survived apparently due to performing the havans) could have been located at higher elevations and it could also be that the windows in those houses were kept open to let out the smoke, which could  could have prevented accumulation of the heavier Methyl isocyanate gas within the houses. If anybody wants to investigate anew the cases, where the people survived in Bhopal. the above aspects also must be considered. There are many factors, which need to be looked at the Bhopal gas tragedy in order to assess if and  how the performers of havans averted the tragedy, and not jump into any hasty conclusion.

Regards,

skb

On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 11:09 AM, Ajit Gargeshwari <ajit.gar...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thank you for these references. I agree with application Dhupana process and allied methods in Aurvedic therapy.

 

There can be no fumes coming out of any Agni hotra rituals performed by people with belief can neutralise cyanide  or methyl isocyanate (MIC) gas that was leaked in Bhopal Gas Tragedy.

I am open for corrections if any documented research papers or books are available that can prove contrary to the stand I have taken

Rest everything else you have pointed out I agree

 

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

--

Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

That does not mean one should start extrapolating and twisting data and prove matters which cannot be proved beyond doubt and call it research and say accept this research else you are anti Indian or not a defender of our culture.

--- None of these things happened in the present thread. 

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

--

Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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[Ajit Gargeshwari]

I did not say this happened in this thread. It happens always many a times and there is enough evidence to prove it does happen outside the list and there might be a tendency that this might happen in this list. This is my thought. I am defender of possibility but one cannot keep defending the impossible.

 

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Nagaraj Paturi
Sent: Friday, August 12, 2016 9:58 AM
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Bhopal Gas Tragedy and Agnihotra

 

That does not mean one should start extrapolating and twisting data and prove matters which cannot be proved beyond doubt and call it research and say accept this research else you are anti Indian or not a defender of our culture.

 

--- None of these things happened in the present thread. 

 

 

On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 8:17 AM, Ajit Gargeshwari <ajit.gar...@gmail.com> wrote:

I still remember a stance taken by  a few list members a couple of years back that our Vedas talk about quantum mechanics and even tried to argue about the relevance of this ridiculous book Quest of Creation higgs god Particles and Vedas . Ancient Indians had made good progress in science That does not mean one should start extrapolating and twisting data and prove matters which cannot be proved beyond doubt and call it research and say accept this research else you are anti Indian or not a defender of our culture. This same logic hold about Indian Astrology. Still many respectable scholars believe astrology should be made compulsory and if all learn and appreciate astrology it will solve the malice facing society. Please note I am for making systematic investigation on astrological texts.

 

Regards

Ajit Gargeshwari

 

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Nagaraj Paturi
Sent: Friday, August 12, 2016 7:52 AM
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Bhopal Gas Tragedy and Agnihotra

 

Prof. Roddam Narasimham, in

 

http://www.currentscience.ac.in/Volumes/108/04/0471.pdf

 

that was shared in an earlier thread on BVP said,

 

The third controversy concerns plastic surgery, which  seems to have been driven in several parts of the world  by the need to repair broken noses (apparently an ancient  and common punishment worldwide), cleft lips, etc. The  first records go back to Egypt in 3000–2500 BCE. In the  6th century BCE, Suśruta consolidated Indic ayurvedic  knowledge in an encyclopaedic and foundational text called the Suśruta Samhita. This included the practice of  plastic surgery, in which India clearly remained well  ahead of the rest of the world. Thus the first major rhinoplasty  in modern West was performed as late as 1815 by  a British surgeon who had served in India for 20 years,  and was triggered by British press reports about how  Maratha soldiers who had lost their noses in the Anglo- Mysore wars were surgically set right in Pune. There was  no European competition to so-called ‘Indian Nose’, so  Indic claims on plastic surgery seem to be on solid  ground.

 

 Prof. Rani, in the present thread, added that the same book has pre-surgical procedures too. Relevance of that information to this thread is that the procedures included use of smokes (presumably for securing the room from the atmospheric pathogens)

 

There was neither a mention of tool cleaning nor was there a claim that the 21st century international standards were maintained.

 

 

On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 6:35 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Vidwans of the list,

 

Did any one in this thread so far conclude that Havan saved the family from the poisonous effects of MIC ?

 

 

On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 5:23 AM, sunil bhattacharjya <skbhatt...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Scholars of this forum,

The Methyi isocyanate is  toxic above 0,02 ppm (parts per million) in air and a concentraion of 3 ppm and higher is dangerous for health. Moreover Methyl isocyatae is heavier than air and that is why it is considerable more dangerous to have methyl isocyanate-polluted air around a low-lying houses and more so if the houses are closed.

It could be that the households  in Bhopal (where people survived apparently due to performing the havans) could have been located at higher elevations and it could also be that the windows in those houses were kept open to let out the smoke, which could  could have prevented accumulation of the heavier Methyl isocyanate gas within the houses. If anybody wants to investigate anew the cases, where the people survived in Bhopal. the above aspects also must be considered. There are many factors, which need to be looked at the Bhopal gas tragedy in order to assess if and  how the performers of havans averted the tragedy, and not jump into any hasty conclusion.

Regards,

skb

On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 11:09 AM, Ajit Gargeshwari <ajit.gar...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thank you for these references. I agree with application Dhupana process and allied methods in Aurvedic therapy.

 

There can be no fumes coming out of any Agni hotra rituals performed by people with belief can neutralise cyanide  or methyl isocyanate (MIC) gas that was leaked in Bhopal Gas Tragedy.

I am open for corrections if any documented research papers or books are available that can prove contrary to the stand I have taken

Rest everything else you have pointed out I agree

 

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Who is defending which impossible here?

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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[BVKSastry(Gmail)]

Namaste

 

Combining several  points in posts below:   The primary questions that emerges would be to ‘Define what is Research and its objective in tradition. ( This is pushing further Dr. Yadu’s single pointed  focus on Viniyoga: Application with a relevance, here and now). If we don’t acknowledge the issue, we cannot proceed further to defend or deny it:  

 

a)      What qualifies to be  defined as the concept and validation of ‘ Scientific Investigation  (Vijnana of Shaastra –Darshana) according to ‘ ancient Indian Knowledge sources’, which  might yield  ‘demonstrable scientific evidence ( Pratyaksha darshana - Pramana)  through a ‘ Technical Application (Viniyoga) ?  In other words: Why Research in Traditional disciplines ? How ?

 

b)  What would  snugly fit  in to the frame of ‘ ancient Indian Knowledge sources of positive sciences’  and positively  answer the guidance provided by Dr.Roddam Narasimhan,  as  ‘ sensible knowledge to be fed to youth ? – for a pride? For a  livelihood ? For defending the tradition ?   In other words, How confident are we about our own capture and continuity of ‘tradition-practice-benefits’ beyond ‘ belief’ ?

 

For example and  to be more specific:  What would one call a ‘Research ( =Samshodhana) in  Ancient Indian Sky observation Astro Science –covering Astronomy and Astrology in a  ‘ twined and twisted way’ , which is  positioned under the discipline of  Vedanga Jyotisha, a unified discipline of  Science of Material phenomenon  and  Mystic intuition with ‘ believe relevance for life-applications’  ? Can a modern Astro-Lab which needs no referencing to Veda or Samskrutham, be of help to do research in Jyotisha and fix an issue –say ‘Ayanamsha, Tithi, Grahana, Ekaadashi Nirnaya ? Yes, No, May be. To what extent the handshake is valuable ?

 

What would one call a ‘Research (=Samshodhana) in  Life-Vision Sciences,  covering physical, psychic  and Spiritual Health care in a unified approach  as Ayur-Veda ? And use advances in the sophistry of ‘Body investigation procedures ( like X-Ray, MRI,  Drug Chemistry)  which come as Material –Property Sciences, which do not need any  ‘Veda –Samkhya darshana conditionality of Dravya –Guna-Karma –Prakruti – Tridosha-Prana -Ayush’??  

 

If there is no such concept in current sciences Or education system, what prevents the scholars of tradition and (Indian -?) Institutions established for promoting tradition to have a pro-active leadership  role and conduct  Systemic and Systematic investigation by ‘ investment in the right direction ( beyond concrete jungles and peripheral posts )  rather than  continue to be a party to < blind defense games - irrational blindness to a unique legacy >?   Andhenaiva neeyamaanaa yathaandaah : Blind leading the blind?

 

Relevant extracts  below:

 

Nagaraj Paturi:  < I am defender of possibility but one cannot keep defending the impossible >

 

Ajit Gargeswari: < Ancient Indians had made good progress in science That does not mean one should start extrapolating and twisting data and prove matters which cannot be proved beyond doubt and call it research and say accept this research else you are anti Indian or not a defender of our culture. This same logic hold about Indian Astrology. Still many respectable scholars believe astrology should be made compulsory and if all learn and appreciate astrology it will solve the malice facing society. Please note I am for making systematic investigation on astrological texts. >   < .. are translation of a few puranic passages which is good as far as the story, importance of yajna in the mythological settings. They are not to be considered as demonstrable scientific evidences >

Rani Sadshiva murthy: < a mere intention to trace out any such references from our belief system in support of the Agnihotra's >  < .. our ancient Indian knowledge sources of any positive sciences are five fold:  1. Vedas 2. Puranas and Itihasas 3. Independent Treatises 4. Interdisciplinary References and 5. Kavyas. ..  In all these FIVE areas either explicitly or suggestively the scientific knowledge has been transmitted from one generation to the next till it reached us.  ..I request you to read my previous mail once again. Nowhere I ventured to call them practicable scientific evidences (Demostrable scientific evidences in your words). But I left the choice to the readers to call them either belief system or knowledge system.>

 

Roddam Narasimhan (from http://www.currentscience.ac.in/Volumes/108/04/0471.pdf  )  : < The centre of the controversy was a symposium on ‘Ancient science through Sanskrit’, organized for the Congress essentially by a group of Sanskrit scholars and academics.      It is high time we learnt once again to distinguish science from mythology (either can be fun, but they are best when not mixed), evidence-based reasoning from unthinking acceptance of authority or speculation, and the rational from the superstitious (realizing that a full life may not be purely rational: consider Ramanujan, for example). To make that happen is a responsibility that scientists here must accept, working in close collaboration with friendly outsiders. Our youth are hungry for a sensible knowledge of our past, but are denied an opportunity to acquire it by a marvellous educational system  that shuns history in science curricula, and by the paucity of attractive but reliable accounts of the fascinating history of Indic ideas. Our academies, universities, museums and other institutions need to make such a project a national mission. Anything less would be irrational blindness to a unique legacy.  >

 

Regards

BVK Sastry

 

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Ajit Gargeshwari
Sent: Friday, 12 August, 2016 12:33 AM
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Bhopal Gas Tragedy and Agnihotra

 

I did not say this happened in this thread. It happens always many a times and there is enough evidence to prove it does happen outside the list and there might be a tendency that this might happen in this list. This is my thought. I am defender of possibility but one cannot keep defending the impossible.

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

A small Correction this sentence should say Nagaraj Paturi:  < I am defender of possibility but one cannot keep defending the impossible >

 

Ajit Gargeshwari:  < I am defender of possibility but one cannot keep defending the impossible >

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Thanks Dr Gargeshwari, for the correction.

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Apart from the traditional agnihotra practice as a nityakarma more prevalent in premodern India, rather than modern India, there are modern movements of agnihotra practice spreading all over the world. Some of them are:

1. Arya Samaj's agnihotra

2. Gajanan Maharaj inspired Vasant Paranjpe lead agnihotra movement

3. Gayatri Pariwar's agnihotra movement.

Researches are being conducted in all the three movements.

[sunil bhattacharjya]

Namaste Sastryji,

I have been opening my big mouth about the  different aspects of scientific  investigation possible into ascertaining  the significance or insignificance  (whatever it may be) of the traditional practices like Agnihotra etc. using the background of the Bhaopal gas poisoning tragedy, only to show that a team work will be required in such cases among the traditional scholars and the modern scientists in the forum, as representatives of the Indians in general.

Regards,

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

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[Ajit Gargeshwari]

I agree with team work but I don’t know if we are “representatives of the Indians in general” I don’t think this list is designed to make any such representations

Regards

Ajit Gargeshwari

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of sunil bhattacharjya
Sent: Friday, August 12, 2016 10:28 PM
To: BHARATIYA VIDVAT
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Bhopal Gas Tragedy and Agnihotra

 

Namaste Sastryji,

I have been opening my big mouth about the  different aspects of scientific  investigation possible into ascertaining  the significance or insignificance  (whatever it may be) of the traditional practices like Agnihotra etc. using the background of the Bhaopal gas poisoning tragedy, only to show that a team work will be required in such cases among the traditional scholars and the modern scientists in the forum, as representatives of the Indians in general.

Regards,

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

 

On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 1:22 AM, BVKSastry(Gmail) <sastr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Namaste

 

Combining several  points in posts below:   The primary questions that emerges would be to ‘Define what is Research and its objective in tradition. ( This is pushing further Dr. Yadu’s single pointed  focus on Viniyoga: Application with a relevance, here and now). If we don’t acknowledge the issue, we cannot proceed further to defend or deny it:  

 

a)      What qualifies to be  defined as the concept and validation of ‘ Scientific Investigation  (Vijnana of Shaastra –Darshana) according to ‘ ancient Indian Knowledge sources’, which  might yield  ‘demonstrable scientific evidence ( Pratyaksha darshana - Pramana)  through a ‘ Technical Application (Viniyoga) ?  In other words: Why Research in Traditional disciplines ? How ?

 

b)  What would  snugly fit  in to the frame of ‘ ancient Indian Knowledge sources of positive sciences’  and positively  answer the guidance provided by Dr.Roddam Narasimhan,  as  ‘ sensible knowledge to be fed to youth ? – for a pride? For a  livelihood ? For defending the tradition ?   In other words, How confident are we about our own capture and continuity of ‘tradition-practice-benefits’ beyond ‘ belief’ ?

 

For example and  to be more specific:  What would one call a ‘Research ( =Samshodhana) in  Ancient Indian Sky observation Astro Science –covering Astronomy and Astrology in a  ‘ twined and twisted way’ , which is  positioned under the discipline of  Vedanga Jyotisha, a unified discipline of  Science of Material phenomenon  and  Mystic intuition with ‘ believe relevance for life-applications’  ? Can a modern Astro-Lab which needs no referencing to Veda or Samskrutham, be of help to do research in Jyotisha and fix an issue –say ‘Ayanamsha, Tithi, Grahana, Ekaadashi Nirnaya ? Yes, No, May be. To what extent the handshake is valuable ?

 

What would one call a ‘Research (=Samshodhana) in  Life-Vision Sciences,  covering physical, psychic  and Spiritual Health care in a unified approach  as Ayur-Veda ? And use advances in the sophistry of ‘Body investigation procedures ( like X-Ray, MRI,  Drug Chemistry)  which come as Material –Property Sciences, which do not need any  ‘Veda –Samkhya darshana conditionality of Dravya –Guna-Karma –Prakruti – Tridosha-Prana -Ayush’??  

 

If there is no such concept in current sciences Or education system, what prevents the scholars of tradition and (Indian -?) Institutions established for promoting tradition to have a pro-active leadership  role and conduct  Systemic and Systematic investigation by ‘ investment in the right direction ( beyond concrete jungles and peripheral posts )  rather than  continue to be a party to < blind defense games - irrational blindness to a unique legacy >?   Andhenaiva neeyamaanaa yathaandaah : Blind leading the blind?

 

Relevant extracts  below:

 

Nagaraj Paturi:  < I am defender of possibility but one cannot keep defending the impossible >

 

Ajit Gargeswari: < Ancient Indians had made good progress in science That does not mean one should start extrapolating and twisting data and prove matters which cannot be proved beyond doubt and call it research and say accept this research else you are anti Indian or not a defender of our culture. This same logic hold about Indian Astrology. Still many respectable scholars believe astrology should be made compulsory and if all learn and appreciate astrology it will solve the malice facing society. Please note I am for making systematic investigation on astrological texts. >   < .. are translation of a few puranic passages which is good as far as the story, importance of yajna in the mythological settings. They are not to be considered as demonstrable scientific evidences >

Rani Sadshiva murthy: < a mere intention to trace out any such references from our belief system in support of the Agnihotra's >  < .. our ancient Indian knowledge sources of any positive sciences are five fold:  1. Vedas 2. Puranas and Itihasas 3. Independent Treatises 4. Interdisciplinary References and 5. Kavyas. ..  In all these FIVE areas either explicitly or suggestively the scientific knowledge has been transmitted from one generation to the next till it reached us.  ..I request you to read my previous mail once again. Nowhere I ventured to call them practicable scientific evidences (Demostrable scientific evidences in your words). But I left the choice to the readers to call them either belief system or knowledge system.>

 

Roddam Narasimhan (from http://www.currentscience.ac.in/Volumes/108/04/0471.pdf  )  : < The centre of the controversy was a symposium on ‘Ancient science through Sanskrit’, organized for the Congress essentially by a group of Sanskrit scholars and academics.      It is high time we learnt once again to distinguish science from mythology (either can be fun, but they are best when not mixed), evidence-based reasoning from unthinking acceptance of authority or speculation, and the rational from the superstitious (realizing that a full life may not be purely rational: consider Ramanujan, for example). To make that happen is a responsibility that scientists here must accept, working in close collaboration with friendly outsiders. Our youth are hungry for a sensible knowledge of our past, but are denied an opportunity to acquire it by a marvellous educational system  that shuns history in science curricula, and by the paucity of attractive but reliable accounts of the fascinating history of Indic ideas. Our academies, universities, museums and other institutions need to make such a project a national mission. Anything less would be irrational blindness to a unique legacy.  >

 

Regards

BVK Sastry

 

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Ajit Gargeshwari
Sent: Friday, 12 August, 2016 12:33 AM
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Bhopal Gas Tragedy and Agnihotra

 

I did not say this happened in this thread. It happens always many a times and there is enough evidence to prove it does happen outside the list and there might be a tendency that this might happen in this list. This is my thought. I am defender of possibility but one cannot keep defending the impossible.

 

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Nagaraj Paturi
Sent: Friday, August 12, 2016 9:58 AM
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Bhopal Gas Tragedy and Agnihotra

 

That does not mean one should start extrapolating and twisting data and prove matters which cannot be proved beyond doubt and call it research and say accept this research else you are anti Indian or not a defender of our culture.

 

--- None of these things happened in the present thread. 

 

 

 

On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 8:17 AM, Ajit Gargeshwari <ajit.gar...@gmail.com> wrote:

I still remember a stance taken by  a few list members a couple of years back that our Vedas talk about quantum mechanics and even tried to argue about the relevance of this ridiculous book Quest of Creation higgs god Particles and Vedas . Ancient Indians had made good progress in science That does not mean one should start extrapolating and twisting data and prove matters which cannot be proved beyond doubt and call it research and say accept this research else you are anti Indian or not a defender of our culture. This same logic hold about Indian Astrology. Still many respectable scholars believe astrology should be made compulsory and if all learn and appreciate astrology it will solve the malice facing society. Please note I am for making systematic investigation on astrological texts.

 

Regards

Ajit Gargeshwari

 

     

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[BVKSastry(Gmail)]

Namaste SB

 

Research as < scientific investigation>  on < Traditional Practices>,  progresses only when (a) The passion of the Tradition Teams is (b) married to the Resource – Investment Providers Policy and intent to guard the ‘Tradition for a Value’ ( This is Viniyoga = Application of Research for a Target benefit: Other words being Phala-Shruti, Loka-Sangraha, Mano-Kaamanaa siddhi  depending upon what one wishes to say).

 

In the present case, traditional teams have passion and pride; but not the ‘numbers – resources- methods- marketing proposition’.

The ‘Resource  rich team’ have ‘ self-opinion, impertinence and superciliousness’  which demands traditional scholars to be hand maid of business enterprise.

 

This is the mismatch of the proposition to proceed any further in making headways on < scientific investigation>  on < Traditional Practices>.

 

It is in this backdrop that I raised the question :What is a  Research proposition, as understood in traditional disciplines, citing two of them, which need a ‘clear understanding of Tradition of Yoga narrated in Samskrutham’. Let us start addressing this issue with a conceptual clarity on pedagogy, methodology and purpose, to fit in to a time frame of say three weeks deliberation ; on this forum where the best brains of tradition are providing inputs. Once that is through, let us figure out as a ‘ TEAM –TRADITION’ the ‘ Viniyoga ( = Benefit of Applied Tradition to provide strength to the spine of belief-practice’. Rest will follow in sequence.

 

The TEAM - is not limited to < representatives of the Indians in general > ; it is < representatives of all researchers interested in Indian Tradition,  willing to work  with open mind set :Sahanaa for Sahanaavavatu – Maa Vidvishaavahai- Tejasvi Naavadhaatamastu  ’>.  Sad fact, not to lament but overcome is we are not yet at this point, though we wish to be and make self-imagination and delusion.

 

Look forward for inputs and a ‘GLOBAL TEAM :  SCIENTIFIC INVESTIGATION OF TRADITION ’ who would stick their head in to this exercise and dip hands to their pockets.

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

Excellent researches are being conducted on Ancient Indian sciences, Indian culture and Sanskrit across India and worldwide by various research organisation and by independent researchers. There is no reason to despair. There is no reason as you say traditional scholars have to do handmade researches for business enterprises. Traditional or Non traditional researches there is no such differentiation. All are researchers.  If one is a part of the system there are enough places and forums where out of the box thinking is encouraged and good researches are funded. One has to realise there is always an X amount which has to be distributed to N number of people.  If one is not a part of the system they often tend to make too much noise which is good for social media but has little or no relevance for researchers. I think we have digressed enough from the subject line and will look forward to any proven paper or book which answers the doubts raised about subject line of the thread.

Regards

Ajit

--

[sunil bhattacharjya]

Dear friends,

Yes, there should be effective interaction between the traditionalist and the scientists, and it is also necessary to recognize that there can be people who are both traditionalist and scientist, at the same time  Effective interaction needs team spirit at individual level on both the sides. There is also the need for lateral thinking and that need not be confined to the scientists alone.  With such combination of talents, no problem would be too big to find solution..

Regards,

skb

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[S R Ivaturi]

Namaste to all scholars.

A lot of discussion is going on the efficacy of Agnihotra/Havan here with valuable inputs from both sides. However, most of the posts are about not carrying any scientific investigation into the process and effects of the Yajna. In this connection I may be permitted to quote the following from the all world gayatri parviar website about their research:

       The Yagyopathy Lab at Brahm- varchas:The Brahmvarchas Research Center was established by Pandit Shriram Sharma Acharya in 1979. It is situated at the Saptsarover road about 6 kilometers from the Hardwar railway station in the direction of Rishikesh, in India. This center is actively working for the integration of the modern and ancient sciences. Innovative scientific research work is being carried out here in the science of spirituality . Apart from a dedicated team of scientists, doctors and engineers and other scholars of high caliber and well equipped laboratories for relevant research in different scientific disciplines including neurology, biochemistry, hematology, photochemistry and sound therapy etc, other features of attraction here are collections of about 450 herbs which include some rare species of the Himalaya n herbs and the yagyopathy lab.

The Ayurvedic (herbal medicine) lab of this centre and its pharmaceutical unit have produced new herbal medicines that have shown superb healing results in some cases of nervous system disorders, asthma, heart diseases, diabetes, lung infections, a wide variety of skin diseases and the diseases of the eyes and ears. Tens of thousands of patients benefit every year from the free consultancy and pure herbal medicines available at no-profit prices here. The yagyopathy lab studies the properties and effects of these herbs when sublimated in the fire of yajna.

The yagyopathy laboratory has a havan kunda placed in a glass chamber and a gas analysis wing for the collection and analysis of the fumes and vapors of yajna. The efficacy of various herbal ingredients in the havishya and the quality of the samidhas are assessed in the photochemistry lab, which is equipped with units like the gas-liquid chromatography. The purpose is to analyze the raw content in the beginning and what is left after these substances have been fumigated [5, 6].

Blood samples are kept in the glass chamber when it is full of the fumes and vapors during the daily yajna (havan) and the changes in the blood biochemistry and hematological parameters are recorded for these samples.

A large number of experiments are carried out on random samples of health y and diseased persons, living on the Shantikunj and Brahmvarchas campuses for prescribed periods. The subjects include the sadhakas as well as the non-sadhakas of all age groups (both men and women ) from all walks of life irrespective of their social or religious background. During such experiments, the subjects are asked to sit in the glass chamber and inhale the fumes of yajna for specific periods of time. A thorough analysis of their bodies and mind s is made before and after performing this experiment.

The measurements (carried out by chromatography, multichannel physio graphs, etc) of the above experiments include – Hematological parameters like HB, TRBC, TWBC, Platelets, RBC fragility etc; biochemical changes like those in the levels of blood urea, sugar, cholesterol, creatinine , SGOT, SGPT etc; and the immunological changes like the antibody levels and innate immunity towards various pathogenic offending organisms.

The EEG, EMG and ECG recordings are carried out in the neurophysiology labs. The psychometric lab assesses the aptitude, learning potential, memory, the intelligence quotient, emotional quotient and the overall personality makeup of the subjects. The cases are followed upon at regular intervals (e.g. after performing yajna regularly for a week, or a month etc.) These experiments may be extended, in collaboration with some neurochemists, to also record the levels of various hormones like cortisol, thyroxin, ACTH, androgen's etc in the endocrinology lab.

The general conclusion of the results obtained so far is that performing yajna significantly enhances the vitality and resistance against adverse metro-biological changes and against the invasion of otherwise lethal viruses and bacteria. Mental peace, emotional stability and creative development of the mind are the general observations of the analysis on the psychological fronts. 

(Highlighted by me)

More information on their work can be found here:  http://www.awgp.org/contact_us/faq/gayatri_yagya_queries/application_of_yajna_for_healing

Regards

Dr. Srinivasa Rao Ivaturi

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

I mentioned three modern movements campaigning havan /homa/ agnihotra and said that they are involved in research.

Dr Ivaturi brought in one of them, the Gayatri Parivar's research.

The other movement, Sri Vasant Paranjape's Homa movement has huge research published on the net.

For example,

http://www.homatherapie.de/en/index.html

http://www.homatherapie.de/en/links.html

http://www.homatherapie.de/ 

http://www.homatherapypoland.org/en/

http://www.agnihotra.org/

http://www.baltohomacommunity.org/

http://www.agnihotra.com.au/

http://www.fivefoldpathmission.org/

http://www.homatherapyindia.com/

The Bhopal family obviously must be belonging to  one of the modern movements.

[Nagaraj Paturi]

The third modern organization I mentioned Arya Samaj too has research reports on its websites. For example,

http://aryamantavya.in/scientific-experimental-study-of-agnihotrahavanyajyan/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxu7YOYQtIw

[Nagaraj Paturi]

http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/ancient-fire-ritual-has-positive-impact-on-environment-scientists/article2103881.ece

Ancient fire ritual has positive impact on environment: Scientists

The Hindu

Sci-Tech

New Delhi, June 14, 2011

Updated: June 14, 2011 15:26 IST

A 4,000 year old fire ritual conducted in the remote village in Kerala in April this year has a positive impact on the atmosphere, soil and other environment effects, according to scientists who are now ready with their findings.

The “Athirathram” ritual held on April 4— 15 at Panjal village in Thrissur district was the focus of a detailed study by a team of scientists led by Prof V P N Nampoori, former director of the International School of Photonics, Cochin University of Science and Technology.

The scientists had focused on the fire ritual’s scientific dimensions and impact on the atmosphere, soil and its micro—organisms and other potential environmental effects.

The yagna seems to have accelerated the process of seed germination and also the microbial presence in air, water and soil in and around the region of the fire ritual is vastly diminished, according to a statement released by the Varthathe Trust, who organised the ritual.

The team had planted three types of seeds — cowpea, green gram and Bengal gram — on all four sides of the ritual venue at varying distances. They found that the growth was better in case of pots kept closer to the fire altar.

This effect, the study says, was more pronounced in the case of Bengal gram with growth about 2,000 times faster than in other places.

According to Nampoori, sound is a vibration and continuous positive vibrations through chanting, accelerates the process of germination.

“The findings would not only help dispel superstitious notions associated with Vedic rituals but also help in continuation of such tradition for the betterment of nature and the environment,” says Nampoori.

He added that further research on the phenomenon were on which could prove that some bio—amplifier generated in the atmosphere because of the ritual, had a selective effect on Bengal gram.

The study focused on counting bacterial colonies at three locations — within the yagnashala, 500 metres and 1.5 kilometres from the yagnasala. Microbial analysis made before, during and four days after the yagna revealed that the air in the vicinity of the yagnashala was pure and had very low count of microbe colonies.

The research team also found that microbial activities in the soil and water around the yagnashala were remarkably less compared to normal ground.

The “Athirathram” ritual which literally means “building up of the fireplace and performed overnight” and usually held to propagate universal peace and harmony, was first documented 35 years ago by US—based Indologist Frits Staal.

Staal, currently Emeritus Professor of Philosophy and South and Southeast Asian Studies at the University of California, Berkeley had in 1975 organised and recorded the ritual in detail with the help of grants and donations from the Universities of Havard, Berkely and Finland”s Helsinki University.

The research team conducted tests near the fire altars of the 1918 and 1956 Athirathram, still preserved in the backyards of Namboothiri homes, reveal that the bricks continue to be free of microbial presence.

“It’s an indication that the effect of the ritual is long—lasting. Studies are on to find out if other positive changes on the atmosphere are transitional or permanent,” say researchers.

An analysis conducted on the dimensions of temperature from the flames of the pravargya by Prof A K Saxena, head of photonics division, Indian Institute of Astrophysics, Bangalore, found that the fire ball that formed during the ritual had a particular wavelength with an unusually high intensity similar to what is observed in typical laser beams at about 3,870 degree centigrade.

It may be possible to have stimulated emission at this wavelength (700 nm) and gain from plasma recombination. It needs to be studied further, he says.

The members of the team of scientists’ team at the Panjal Athirathram 2011 included experts from various disciplines and included Dr Rajalakshmy Subrahmanian (Cusat), Dr Parvathi Menon (M G College, Thiruvanathapuram), Dr Maya R Nair (Pattambi Government College), Prof Saxena ( Indian Institute of Astrophysics, Bangalore) and Prof. Rao (Andhra University).

The scientific team members were supported by Zarina (Research Scholar, CUSAT), Ramkumar (Biotechnologist), Asulabha (Biotechnologist) and a number of postgraduate, graduate and school students.

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

Thanks for all these Links. Would like to see articles or links which has independent research. The researches of Prof. Stall is well known.

Regards

Ajit Gargeshwari

 

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Nagaraj Paturi
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2016 11:14 PM
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Bhopal Gas Tragedy and Agnihotra

 

http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/ancient-fire-ritual-has-positive-impact-on-environment-scientists/article2103881.ece

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of BVKSastry(Gmail)
Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2016 8:26 AM
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Bhopal Gas Tragedy and Agnihotra

 

Namaste SB

 

Research as < scientific investigation>  on < Traditional Practices>,  progresses only when (a) The passion of the Tradition Teams is (b) married to the Resource – Investment Providers Policy and intent to guard the ‘Tradition for a Value’ ( This is Viniyoga = Application of Research for a Target benefit: Other words being Phala-Shruti, Loka-Sangraha, Mano-Kaamanaa siddhi  depending upon what one wishes to say).

 

In the present case, traditional teams have passion and pride; but not the ‘numbers – resources- methods- marketing proposition’.

The ‘Resource  rich team’ have ‘ self-opinion, impertinence and superciliousness’  which demands traditional scholars to be hand maid of business enterprise.

 

This is the mismatch of the proposition to proceed any further in making headways on < scientific investigation>  on < Traditional Practices>.

 

It is in this backdrop that I raised the question :What is a  Research proposition, as understood in traditional disciplines, citing two of them, which need a ‘clear understanding of Tradition of Yoga narrated in Samskrutham’. Let us start addressing this issue with a conceptual clarity on pedagogy, methodology and purpose, to fit in to a time frame of say three weeks deliberation ; on this forum where the best brains of tradition are providing inputs. Once that is through, let us figure out as a ‘ TEAM –TRADITION’ the ‘ Viniyoga ( = Benefit of Applied Tradition to provide strength to the spine of belief-practice’. Rest will follow in sequence.

 

The TEAM - is not limited to < representatives of the Indians in general > ; it is < representatives of all researchers interested in Indian Tradition,  willing to work  with open mind set :Sahanaa for Sahanaavavatu – Maa Vidvishaavahai- Tejasvi Naavadhaatamastu  ’>.  Sad fact, not to lament but overcome is we are not yet at this point, though we wish to be and make self-imagination and delusion.

 

Look forward for inputs and a ‘GLOBAL TEAM :  SCIENTIFIC INVESTIGATION OF TRADITION ’ who would stick their head in to this exercise and dip hands to their pockets.

 

Regards

BVK Sastry

 

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Ajit Gargeshwari
Sent: Friday, 12 August, 2016 1:31 PM
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Subject: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Bhopal Gas Tragedy and Agnihotra

 

I agree with team work but I don’t know if we are “representatives of the Indians in general” I don’t think this list is designed to make any such representations

Regards

Ajit Gargeshwari

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of sunil bhattacharjya
Sent: Friday, August 12, 2016 10:28 PM
To: BHARATIYA VIDVAT
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Bhopal Gas Tragedy and Agnihotra

 

Namaste Sastryji,

I have been opening my big mouth about the  different aspects of scientific  investigation possible into ascertaining  the significance or insignificance  (whatever it may be) of the traditional practices like Agnihotra etc. using the background of the Bhaopal gas poisoning tragedy, only to show that a team work will be required in such cases among the traditional scholars and the modern scientists in the forum, as representatives of the Indians in general.

Regards,

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 1:22 AM, BVKSastry(Gmail) <sastr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Namaste

Combining several  points in posts below:   The primary questions that emerges would be to ‘Define what is Research and its objective in tradition. ( This is pushing further Dr. Yadu’s single pointed  focus on Viniyoga: Application with a relevance, here and now). If we don’t acknowledge the issue, we cannot proceed further to defend or deny it:  

a)      What qualifies to be  defined as the concept and validation of ‘ Scientific Investigation  (Vijnana of Shaastra –Darshana) according to ‘ ancient Indian Knowledge sources’, which  might yield  ‘demonstrable scientific evidence ( Pratyaksha darshana - Pramana)  through a ‘ Technical Application (Viniyoga) ?  In other words: Why Research in Traditional disciplines ? How ?

b)  What would  snugly fit  in to the frame of ‘ ancient Indian Knowledge sources of positive sciences’  and positively  answer the guidance provided by Dr.Roddam Narasimhan,  as  ‘ sensible knowledge to be fed to youth ? – for a pride? For a  livelihood ? For defending the tradition ?   In other words, How confident are we about our own capture and continuity of ‘tradition-practice-benefits’ beyond ‘ belief’ ?

For example and  to be more specific:  What would one call a ‘Research ( =Samshodhana) in  Ancient Indian Sky observation Astro Science –covering Astronomy and Astrology in a  ‘ twined and twisted way’ , which is  positioned under the discipline of  Vedanga Jyotisha, a unified discipline of  Science of Material phenomenon  and  Mystic intuition with ‘ believe relevance for life-applications’  ? Can a modern Astro-Lab which needs no referencing to Veda or Samskrutham, be of help to do research in Jyotisha and fix an issue –say ‘Ayanamsha, Tithi, Grahana, Ekaadashi Nirnaya ? Yes, No, May be. To what extent the handshake is valuable ?

What would one call a ‘Research (=Samshodhana) in  Life-Vision Sciences,  covering physical, psychic  and Spiritual Health care in a unified approach  as Ayur-Veda ? And use advances in the sophistry of ‘Body investigation procedures ( like X-Ray, MRI,  Drug Chemistry)  which come as Material –Property Sciences, which do not need any  ‘Veda –Samkhya darshana conditionality of Dravya –Guna-Karma –Prakruti – Tridosha-Prana -Ayush’??  

If there is no such concept in current sciences Or education system, what prevents the scholars of tradition and (Indian -?) Institutions established for promoting tradition to have a pro-active leadership  role and conduct  Systemic and Systematic investigation by ‘ investment in the right direction ( beyond concrete jungles and peripheral posts )  rather than  continue to be a party to < blind defense games - irrational blindness to a unique legacy >?   Andhenaiva neeyamaanaa yathaandaah : Blind leading the blind?

Relevant extracts  below:

Nagaraj Paturi:  < I am defender of possibility but one cannot keep defending the impossible >

Ajit Gargeswari: < Ancient Indians had made good progress in science That does not mean one should start extrapolating and twisting data and prove matters which cannot be proved beyond doubt and call it research and say accept this research else you are anti Indian or not a defender of our culture. This same logic hold about Indian Astrology. Still many respectable scholars believe astrology should be made compulsory and if all learn and appreciate astrology it will solve the malice facing society. Please note I am for making systematic investigation on astrological texts. >   < .. are translation of a few puranic passages which is good as far as the story, importance of yajna in the mythological settings. They are not to be considered as demonstrable scientific evidences >

Rani Sadshiva murthy: < a mere intention to trace out any such references from our belief system in support of the Agnihotra's >  < .. our ancient Indian knowledge sources of any positive sciences are five fold:  1. Vedas 2. Puranas and Itihasas 3. Independent Treatises 4. Interdisciplinary References and 5. Kavyas. ..  In all these FIVE areas either explicitly or suggestively the scientific knowledge has been transmitted from one generation to the next till it reached us.  ..I request you to read my previous mail once again. Nowhere I ventured to call them practicable scientific evidences (Demostrable scientific evidences in your words). But I left the choice to the readers to call them either belief system or knowledge system.>

Roddam Narasimhan (from http://www.currentscience.ac.in/Volumes/108/04/0471.pdf  )  : < The centre of the controversy was a symposium on ‘Ancient science through Sanskrit’, organized for the Congress essentially by a group of Sanskrit scholars and academics.      It is high time we learnt once again to distinguish science from mythology (either can be fun, but they are best when not mixed), evidence-based reasoning from unthinking acceptance of authority or speculation, and the rational from the superstitious (realizing that a full life may not be purely rational: consider Ramanujan, for example). To make that happen is a responsibility that scientists here must accept, working in close collaboration with friendly outsiders. Our youth are hungry for a sensible knowledge of our past, but are denied an opportunity to acquire it by a marvellous educational system  that shuns history in science curricula, and by the paucity of attractive but reliable accounts of the fascinating history of Indic ideas. Our academies, universities, museums and other institutions need to make such a project a national mission. Anything less would be irrational blindness to a unique legacy.  >

 

Regards

BVK Sastry

 

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Ajit Gargeshwari
Sent: Friday, 12 August, 2016 12:33 AM
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Bhopal Gas Tragedy and Agnihotra

 

I did not say this happened in this thread. It happens always many a times and there is enough evidence to prove it does happen outside the list and there might be a tendency that this might happen in this list. This is my thought. I am defender of possibility but one cannot keep defending the impossible.

 

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Nagaraj Paturi
Sent: Friday, August 12, 2016 9:58 AM
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Bhopal Gas Tragedy and Agnihotra

That does not mean one should start extrapolating and twisting data and prove matters which cannot be proved beyond doubt and call it research and say accept this research else you are anti Indian or not a defender of our culture.

--- None of these things happened in the present thread. 

On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 8:17 AM, Ajit Gargeshwari <ajit.gar...@gmail.com> wrote:

I still remember a stance taken by  a few list members a couple of years back that our Vedas talk about quantum mechanics and even tried to argue about the relevance of this ridiculous book Quest of Creation higgs god Particles and Vedas . Ancient Indians had made good progress in science That does not mean one should start extrapolating and twisting data and prove matters which cannot be proved beyond doubt and call it research and say accept this research else you are anti Indian or not a defender of our culture. This same logic hold about Indian Astrology. Still many respectable scholars believe astrology should be made compulsory and if all learn and appreciate astrology it will solve the malice facing society. Please note I am for making systematic investigation on astrological texts.

 

Regards

Ajit Gargeshwari

   

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

--

Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

--

Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Can you please elaborate and educate me about 'independent research' ?

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

--

Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

--

Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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[Ajit Gargeshwari]

When I meant independent research I meant researches which are reviewed. Like Prof Stall’s works and articles

 

From: Ajit Gargeshwari [mailto:ajit.gar...@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2016 11:24 PM
To: 'bvpar...@googlegroups.com'
Subject: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Bhopal Gas Tragedy and Agnihotra

 

Thanks for all these Links. Would like to see articles or links which has independent research. The researches of Prof. Stall is well known.

Regards

Ajit Gargeshwari

 

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Nagaraj Paturi

Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2016 11:14 PM

To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Bhopal Gas Tragedy and Agnihotra

 

http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/ancient-fire-ritual-has-positive-impact-on-environment-scientists/article2103881.ece

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of BVKSastry(Gmail)
Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2016 8:26 AM
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Bhopal Gas Tragedy and Agnihotra

 

Namaste SB

 

Research as < scientific investigation>  on < Traditional Practices>,  progresses only when (a) The passion of the Tradition Teams is (b) married to the Resource – Investment Providers Policy and intent to guard the ‘Tradition for a Value’ ( This is Viniyoga = Application of Research for a Target benefit: Other words being Phala-Shruti, Loka-Sangraha, Mano-Kaamanaa siddhi  depending upon what one wishes to say).

 

In the present case, traditional teams have passion and pride; but not the ‘numbers – resources- methods- marketing proposition’.

The ‘Resource  rich team’ have ‘ self-opinion, impertinence and superciliousness’  which demands traditional scholars to be hand maid of business enterprise.

 

This is the mismatch of the proposition to proceed any further in making headways on < scientific investigation>  on < Traditional Practices>.

 

It is in this backdrop that I raised the question :What is a  Research proposition, as understood in traditional disciplines, citing two of them, which need a ‘clear understanding of Tradition of Yoga narrated in Samskrutham’. Let us start addressing this issue with a conceptual clarity on pedagogy, methodology and purpose, to fit in to a time frame of say three weeks deliberation ; on this forum where the best brains of tradition are providing inputs. Once that is through, let us figure out as a ‘ TEAM –TRADITION’ the ‘ Viniyoga ( = Benefit of Applied Tradition to provide strength to the spine of belief-practice’. Rest will follow in sequence.

 

The TEAM - is not limited to < representatives of the Indians in general > ; it is < representatives of all researchers interested in Indian Tradition,  willing to work  with open mind set :Sahanaa for Sahanaavavatu – Maa Vidvishaavahai- Tejasvi Naavadhaatamastu  ’>.  Sad fact, not to lament but overcome is we are not yet at this point, though we wish to be and make self-imagination and delusion.

 

Look forward for inputs and a ‘GLOBAL TEAM :  SCIENTIFIC INVESTIGATION OF TRADITION ’ who would stick their head in to this exercise and dip hands to their pockets.

 

Regards

BVK Sastry

 

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Ajit Gargeshwari
Sent: Friday, 12 August, 2016 1:31 PM
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Subject: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Bhopal Gas Tragedy and Agnihotra

 

I agree with team work but I don’t know if we are “representatives of the Indians in general” I don’t think this list is designed to make any such representations

Regards

Ajit Gargeshwari

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of sunil bhattacharjya
Sent: Friday, August 12, 2016 10:28 PM
To: BHARATIYA VIDVAT
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Bhopal Gas Tragedy and Agnihotra

 

Namaste Sastryji,

I have been opening my big mouth about the  different aspects of scientific  investigation possible into ascertaining  the significance or insignificance  (whatever it may be) of the traditional practices like Agnihotra etc. using the background of the Bhaopal gas poisoning tragedy, only to show that a team work will be required in such cases among the traditional scholars and the modern scientists in the forum, as representatives of the Indians in general.

Regards,

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 1:22 AM, BVKSastry(Gmail) <sastr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Namaste

Combining several  points in posts below:   The primary questions that emerges would be to ‘Define what is Research and its objective in tradition. ( This is pushing further Dr. Yadu’s single pointed  focus on Viniyoga: Application with a relevance, here and now). If we don’t acknowledge the issue, we cannot proceed further to defend or deny it:  

a)      What qualifies to be  defined as the concept and validation of ‘ Scientific Investigation  (Vijnana of Shaastra –Darshana) according to ‘ ancient Indian Knowledge sources’, which  might yield  ‘demonstrable scientific evidence ( Pratyaksha darshana - Pramana)  through a ‘ Technical Application (Viniyoga) ?  In other words: Why Research in Traditional disciplines ? How ?

b)  What would  snugly fit  in to the frame of ‘ ancient Indian Knowledge sources of positive sciences’  and positively  answer the guidance provided by Dr.Roddam Narasimhan,  as  ‘ sensible knowledge to be fed to youth ? – for a pride? For a  livelihood ? For defending the tradition ?   In other words, How confident are we about our own capture and continuity of ‘tradition-practice-benefits’ beyond ‘ belief’ ?

For example and  to be more specific:  What would one call a ‘Research ( =Samshodhana) in  Ancient Indian Sky observation Astro Science –covering Astronomy and Astrology in a  ‘ twined and twisted way’ , which is  positioned under the discipline of  Vedanga Jyotisha, a unified discipline of  Science of Material phenomenon  and  Mystic intuition with ‘ believe relevance for life-applications’  ? Can a modern Astro-Lab which needs no referencing to Veda or Samskrutham, be of help to do research in Jyotisha and fix an issue –say ‘Ayanamsha, Tithi, Grahana, Ekaadashi Nirnaya ? Yes, No, May be. To what extent the handshake is valuable ?

What would one call a ‘Research (=Samshodhana) in  Life-Vision Sciences,  covering physical, psychic  and Spiritual Health care in a unified approach  as Ayur-Veda ? And use advances in the sophistry of ‘Body investigation procedures ( like X-Ray, MRI,  Drug Chemistry)  which come as Material –Property Sciences, which do not need any  ‘Veda –Samkhya darshana conditionality of Dravya –Guna-Karma –Prakruti – Tridosha-Prana -Ayush’??  

If there is no such concept in current sciences Or education system, what prevents the scholars of tradition and (Indian -?) Institutions established for promoting tradition to have a pro-active leadership  role and conduct  Systemic and Systematic investigation by ‘ investment in the right direction ( beyond concrete jungles and peripheral posts )  rather than  continue to be a party to < blind defense games - irrational blindness to a unique legacy >?   Andhenaiva neeyamaanaa yathaandaah : Blind leading the blind?

Relevant extracts  below:

Nagaraj Paturi:  < I am defender of possibility but one cannot keep defending the impossible >

Ajit Gargeswari: < Ancient Indians had made good progress in science That does not mean one should start extrapolating and twisting data and prove matters which cannot be proved beyond doubt and call it research and say accept this research else you are anti Indian or not a defender of our culture. This same logic hold about Indian Astrology. Still many respectable scholars believe astrology should be made compulsory and if all learn and appreciate astrology it will solve the malice facing society. Please note I am for making systematic investigation on astrological texts. >   < .. are translation of a few puranic passages which is good as far as the story, importance of yajna in the mythological settings. They are not to be considered as demonstrable scientific evidences >

Rani Sadshiva murthy: < a mere intention to trace out any such references from our belief system in support of the Agnihotra's >  < .. our ancient Indian knowledge sources of any positive sciences are five fold:  1. Vedas 2. Puranas and Itihasas 3. Independent Treatises 4. Interdisciplinary References and 5. Kavyas. ..  In all these FIVE areas either explicitly or suggestively the scientific knowledge has been transmitted from one generation to the next till it reached us.  ..I request you to read my previous mail once again. Nowhere I ventured to call them practicable scientific evidences (Demostrable scientific evidences in your words). But I left the choice to the readers to call them either belief system or knowledge system.>

Roddam Narasimhan (from http://www.currentscience.ac.in/Volumes/108/04/0471.pdf  )  : < The centre of the controversy was a symposium on ‘Ancient science through Sanskrit’, organized for the Congress essentially by a group of Sanskrit scholars and academics.      It is high time we learnt once again to distinguish science from mythology (either can be fun, but they are best when not mixed), evidence-based reasoning from unthinking acceptance of authority or speculation, and the rational from the superstitious (realizing that a full life may not be purely rational: consider Ramanujan, for example). To make that happen is a responsibility that scientists here must accept, working in close collaboration with friendly outsiders. Our youth are hungry for a sensible knowledge of our past, but are denied an opportunity to acquire it by a marvellous educational system  that shuns history in science curricula, and by the paucity of attractive but reliable accounts of the fascinating history of Indic ideas. Our academies, universities, museums and other institutions need to make such a project a national mission. Anything less would be irrational blindness to a unique legacy.  >

 

Regards

BVK Sastry

 

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Ajit Gargeshwari
Sent: Friday, 12 August, 2016 12:33 AM
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Bhopal Gas Tragedy and Agnihotra

 

I did not say this happened in this thread. It happens always many a times and there is enough evidence to prove it does happen outside the list and there might be a tendency that this might happen in this list. This is my thought. I am defender of possibility but one cannot keep defending the impossible.

 

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Nagaraj Paturi
Sent: Friday, August 12, 2016 9:58 AM
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Bhopal Gas Tragedy and Agnihotra

That does not mean one should start extrapolating and twisting data and prove matters which cannot be proved beyond doubt and call it research and say accept this research else you are anti Indian or not a defender of our culture.

--- None of these things happened in the present thread. 

On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 8:17 AM, Ajit Gargeshwari <ajit.gar...@gmail.com> wrote:

I still remember a stance taken by  a few list members a couple of years back that our Vedas talk about quantum mechanics and even tried to argue about the relevance of this ridiculous book Quest of Creation higgs god Particles and Vedas . Ancient Indians had made good progress in science That does not mean one should start extrapolating and twisting data and prove matters which cannot be proved beyond doubt and call it research and say accept this research else you are anti Indian or not a defender of our culture. This same logic hold about Indian Astrology. Still many respectable scholars believe astrology should be made compulsory and if all learn and appreciate astrology it will solve the malice facing society. Please note I am for making systematic investigation on astrological texts.

 

Regards

Ajit Gargeshwari

   

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

--

Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

--

Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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[Ajit Gargeshwari]

I see plenty of good papers such Listed in the sites mentioned for instance
on this site

http://aryamantavya.in/scientific-experimental-study-of-agnihotrahavanyajyan
/

but I see no review paper pertaining to the subject matter of the thread
which is” Bhopal Gas Tragedy and Agnihotra”

Regards

Ajit

From: Ajit Gargeshwari [mailto:ajit.gar...@gmail.com]

Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2016 11:26 PM
To: 'Ajit Gargeshwari'; bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Bhopal Gas Tragedy and Agnihotra

When I meant independent research I meant researches which are reviewed.
Like Prof Stall’s works and articles



From: Ajit Gargeshwari [mailto:ajit.gar...@gmail.com]

Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2016 11:24 PM
To: 'bvpar...@googlegroups.com'
Subject: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Bhopal Gas Tragedy and Agnihotra

Thanks for all these Links. Would like to see articles or links which has
independent research. The researches of Prof. Stall is well known.

Regards

Ajit Gargeshwari

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On
Behalf Of Nagaraj Paturi

Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2016 11:14 PM

To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Bhopal Gas Tragedy and Agnihotra

http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/ancient-fire-ritual-has-positive-impact-on-
environment-scientists/article2103881.ece

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On
Behalf Of Ajit Gargeshwari
Sent: Friday, 12 August, 2016 1:31 PM
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Subject: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Bhopal Gas Tragedy and Agnihotra



I agree with team work but I don’t know if we are “representatives of the
Indians in general” I don’t think this list is designed to make any such
representations

Regards

Ajit Gargeshwari

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On
Behalf Of Ajit Gargeshwari
Sent: Friday, 12 August, 2016 12:33 AM
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Bhopal Gas Tragedy and Agnihotra



I did not say this happened in this thread. It happens always many a times
and there is enough evidence to prove it does happen outside the list and
there might be a tendency that this might happen in this list. This is my
thought. I am defender of possibility but one cannot keep defending the
impossible.

email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.

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--

Nagaraj Paturi



Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.



Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies



FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education,



(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )










--

Nagaraj Paturi



Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.



Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies



FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education,



(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )










--

Nagaraj Paturi



Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.



Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies



FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education,



(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

No one in the thread so far, including the thread initiator made any claim that Havan was responsible for the miraculous survival of the family.

 Hence proof is not being provided nor is it needed to be provided for that point.

All the proofs being provided are for the efficacy or usefulness of havan.

Apart from the research proof,

"proof of the pudding is in its eating"

applies to many aspects of alternative medicine and alternative practices like Havan.

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Nagaraj Paturi



Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.



Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies



FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,



(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )










--

Nagaraj Paturi



Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.



Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies



FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,



(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )










--

Nagaraj Paturi



Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.



Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies



FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,



(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

http://nitishpriyadarshi.blogspot.in/2009/03/smoke-of-medicinal-plants-can-kill.html

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

Enough Links and Information has been given on Homa Therapies. If members need specific information they will go the websites or will ask questions. Thanks

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Thanks.

On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 11:20 AM, Ajit Gargeshwari <ajit.gar...@gmail.com> wrote:

Enough Links and Information has been given on Homa Therapies. If members need specific information they will go the websites or will ask questions. Thanks

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