New Book on Ancient Indian Science in Sanskrit

[R. Narayana iyengar]

 Dear Members,

The following book 

||पराशरतन्त्रम् || 

||प्राचीनज्योतिःशास्त्रविषयकवैज्ञानिकग्रन्थः||

|| Parasharatantra || 

Ancient Sanskrit Text on Astronomy & Natural Sciences.

Reconstructed Text with Translation & Notes. By R.N.Iyengar

Jain University Publications. November 2013, pp 280.

is due to be released this month end in Bangalore. The attached draft-cover page, the Sanskrit foreword by Dr.S.Y.Wakankar and the foreword in English by Dr.BV Subbarayappa will give a fair idea of the book.  Persons interested in the book are requested to send email to Sri.M.S.Santosh at

ju.publications@jainuniversity.ac.in, ms.santhosh@jainuniversity.ac.in

If you have any comment or specific query please contact me privately.

I will post the invitation to the release function once the details are worked out. 

I hope lovers of Sanskrit,  Indian culture and history will encourage the book. 

Best regards

RN Iyengar

[pravesh vyas]

Heartiest congratulations Sir,

Its really a remarkable work.

[Soma Basu]

Respected Prof. Iyenger,

Many thanks for this text on Ancient Indian Astronomy you reconstructed.
I have great interest in reconstructed texts as we have been working with manuscripts in our department since long.

May I know  when will it be  available for the readers?
Regards,

Dr. Mrs. Soma Basu
Associate Professor
School of Vedic Studies
Rabindra Bharati University
Kolkata

--
निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to bvpar...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bvparishat.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

[rniyengar]

Dear Dr.Basu,

Thanks for your interest in the book. It will be released on 30th of this month and should be available outside Bangalore almost immediately. Please send a mail to the publisher mentioned in my previous post. This could be just an expression of interest, with no commitment to buy. This would help the publisher know how to distribute the book. Publishing and marketing Indology/Sanskrit books within India appears to be a tough proposal! [My previous book, a collection of papers, is sitting with a well known Delhi Publisher after 2 years and three proofs. Reason: He is demanding money from me and I will not oblige him.]

Hence my request.

Best Regards

RN Iyengar

[Nityanand Misra]

On Wednesday, November 6, 2013 10:27:37 PM UTC+8, rniyengar wrote:

 Dear Members,

The following book 

||पराशरतन्त्रम् || 

||प्राचीनज्योतिःशास्त्रविषयकवैज्ञानिकग्रन्थः||

|| Parasharatantra || 

Ancient Sanskrit Text on Astronomy & Natural Sciences.

Reconstructed Text with Translation & Notes. By R.N.Iyengar

Jain University Publications. November 2013, pp 280.

is due to be released this month end in Bangalore. The attached draft-cover page, the Sanskrit foreword by Dr.S.Y.Wakankar and the foreword in English by Dr.BV Subbarayappa will give a fair idea of the book.  

Dr Iyengar

Congratulations for bringing out this work. I am sure you must have put in a lot of effort and this will be a treat for people interested in Jyautisa and Sanskrit.

Now for some important feedback. As somebody who has learned the hard way the value of proofreading (having seen first-hand many brilliant works of great scholars simply "done in" by lack of "due diligence" by proofreaders and editors), I hope the typeset has been proofread. 

I can see several orthographic/grammatical and punctuational errors in the text on the cover design which would better be corrected before the book goes to print. 

Above all, there is one glaring typographic error on the cover which MUST be fixed. The title of the work has Anusvaara (तंत्रम्). This is wrong. It must be तन्त्रम्. 

तन् ष्ट्रन् -> अनुबन्धलोपः, निमित्तापाये नैमित्तिकापायः -> तन् त्र -> स्वादिष्वसर्वनामस्थाने -> 'तन्' इत्यस्य पदसञ्ज्ञा -> तितुत्रतथसिसुसरकसेषु च इडागमनिषेधः -> तन्त्र -> विभक्तिकार्यः -> तन्त्रम् 

Question 1: What about नश्चापदान्तस्य झलि which gives rise to अनुस्वार from न्?

Answer: The rule does not apply in this case. The reason is that न् is पदान्त since by स्वादिष्वसर्वनामस्थाने the root तन् gets the पदसञ्ज्ञा when followed by the suffix त्र. So the अपदान्तस्य conditon is not met for the rule नश्चापदान्तस्य झलि. In this Prakriya, there are two पदसञ्ज्ञाs, the first one for the root part 'तन्' by स्वादिष्वसर्वनामस्थाने, and the second one for the final inflected form 'तन्त्रम्' by सुप्तिङन्तं पदम्. For more details, refer the chart on Pada in Paniniya tradition here.

Question 2: Could it be optional form, like सन्ताप/संताप?

Answer: No, in सन्ताप/संताप, first सम् ताप becomes संताप by मोऽनुस्वारः and then संताप optionally becomes सन्ताप by वा पदान्तस्य. There is no scope the first step (appearance of अनुस्वार) itself in the Prakriya of तन्त्रम्, not even optional scope.

Question 3: What then about तंत्र, ತಂತ್ರ , తంత్ర, તંત્ર, ਤੰਤ੍ਰ, et cetera.

Answer: All Prakrit styles, okay in the Prakrits, but plain wrong in Sanskrit. The title of the book is in Sanskrit, and so it must be तन्त्रम् and not तंत्रम्. 

PS: Also on the cover - ज्योतिःशास्त्रम्. I think it should be ज्यौतिषशास्त्रम् instead?Maybe Professor Korada can help us, who knows both Jyautisa and Vyakaranam.

[R. Narayana iyengar]

Dr.Mishra,

Thanks for your observation about the Cover Page draft. I have no difficulty in changing  तंत्रम् to तन्त्रम्, because that is the form used by convention largely. You would see that in my post I use the latter orthography.  

About the other word, ज्योतिःशास्त्रम् I stick to my usage. I have seen ज्योतिश्शास्त्रम् being used. I understand this is optional. Your alternate suggestion I had thought about, but the word ज्यौतिषशास्त्रम् gives the sense of Astrology in the current cultural context in India. The thrust of Parashara's text being largely the visible sky with bright objects (astronomy) I made a choice and find no reason to change it.

I have learnt some thing from your Q & A but not necessarily accepting all the contents therein. You make too strong a statement such as "but plain wrong in Sanskrit". Had you said "in the contemporary Devanaagarii script representation of classical Sanskrit...." I would have left it that.  Sanskrit has had no specific script. So long the sounds are pronounced nearest to their natural limits "it is Sanskrit". In writing it is like "spelling". The correct accents/pronunciations are learnt by practice and listening. This varies with in certain statistical limits from region to region and also time to time. AFAIK no one has quantified the variation and arrived at a normative form. What we have is only a broad consensus. Not being a linguist I am not interested in arguing this point, but I know I am not wrong.

 Incidentally, the  word  ತಂತ್ರ in Kannada will be sounded and heard as तन्त्र only, not तम्त्र. So also ಮಂತ್ರ.  The visual representation of the resulting word and sound as ತನ್ತ್ರ is possible but looks clumsy and needs more effort to write. In the older letter press printing such representation was expensive for casting the lead types. Therefore the लाघव principle can come into play even in writing and printing. This has nothing to do with Prakrit vs Sanskrit. May be you can start another thread on this, since this is not relevant to my post.

The underlying principle of Sanskrit Grammar as I have understood is 'principle of minimum effort which is the  law of nature', that is nearly same as लाघव in the sense of a mathematical limit to invent a metalanguage for codifying a spoken language, so that variations in time and space are reduced to a possible minimum without sacrificing the beauty inherent in intuitive, imaginative, creative and intellectual efforts.  I have great regard for this. But when grammar extends to the visual representation of ideas through words and sentences in any script what matters is the speed and correctness with which the meaning is resolved in the mind of the Reader who does it as मध्यमा वाक्  unlike a listener in the oral tradition who has to first resolve the same in the वैखरी mode, before it gets registered. 

If you are implying that Sanskrit is to be written in Devanaagarii only, I beg to differ.The above points are no objections to your opinions, but only a discussion. 

I may mention here that one will find with in the book words and phrases which some may think आर्ष while others may say non-Paninian, and some others dismiss as 'incorrect'. I have only copied the text from other print versions.  It is said best is the enemy of good. I am, as of now not capable of giving even the better!  I am only investigating objectively the content of an ancient "sky observation tradition including some modeling" using modern concepts and methods. Serious study of the "outer form of Paraas'ara's tradition" orally transmitted over centuries, later written down and then printed is not my speciality. Let me hope some one will bring out the best edition if and when the original manuscripts are located. Till then my defence of using Sanskrit as a support and taking liberties with purists is from 

विद्यामाधवीयम् 

वैयाकरणकिरातैरपशब्दमृगाः  क्व यान्ति सन्त्रस्ताः |

नटविटभटगणकभिषक्च्छ्रोत्रियमुखकन्दराणि यदि न स्युः ||      

इति शम् 

नारायणः 

On Fri, Nov 8, 2013 at 10:15 AM, rniyengar <narayana...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Mārcis Gasūns]

Very nice typography. If fixing proofreading will be done right, a beautiful book will come alive.

M.

[Nityanand Misra]

Dear Dr. Iyengar

On Friday, November 8, 2013 11:42:38 PM UTC+8, rniyengar wrote:

Dr.Mishra,

Not a PhD [yet], so you may drop the Dr. :)
 

If you are implying that Sanskrit is to be written in Devanaagarii only, I beg to differ.The above points are no objections to your opinions, but only a discussion. 

No my point is not that only Devanagari is to be used for writing Samskrita. My point is whatever script, Indic or western (using a transliteration scheme), is used to write Samskrita, the Samskrita words should be written the way they are pronounced in Samskrita. Consistent and accurate representation/transliteration, in any script.

So instead of using तंत्र/તંત્ર/ತಂತ್ರ  etc which is the practice for works in Prakrits (for whatever historical reasons), works in Samskrita should use the representation तन्त्र/તન્ત્ર/ತನ್ತ್ರ when printed in Nagari/Gujarati/Kannada script. Even in works of older presses, we do not see the latter forms in standard publications like those of Nirnay Sagar Press.

Another example - the front inner cover flap of the book has IAST transliteration for Samskrita names at some places - Parāśara, Varāhamihira,  Ballālasena. But in the same flap at other places the scheme is different - e.g. Parasara (for Parāśara) and Bhaskara (for Bhāskara). Same page uses two different transliterations for the same name - Parasara (परसर) and Parāśara (पराशर) - at two places. These errors are no doubt minor, but easy to detect. These are things all proofreaders are expected to detect and correct, and all authors are expected to pay attention to.

I recall an incident in this regard. When the great scholar Acharya Hazariprasad Dwivedi was on his deathbed, his work सिक्ख गुरुओं का पुण्यस्मरण was not yet printed. He regretted that he would die (of brain tumour) before the book would be published. His last words to his son Mukund Dwivedi about the work were "Do not get it published yet. I could not see the typed manuscript. There should be no printing mistakes. Match all citations with Guru Grantha Sahib, either you do this yourself or ask Vishvanath (Vishvanath Tripathi) to do it. I do not know if I will live to see this published." I think that is what all authors and proofreaders should strive for - avoid as many errors as we can.

Regards, Nityanand

[Mārcis Gasūns]

Valuable addition, indeed, Nityanand,

  I must confess I value your detailed critical remarks a lot. Even if there is not love between us. I value you as a scholar, an eagle-eyed one.

On Saturday, 9 November 2013 05:41:40 UTC+4, Nityanand Misra wrote:

No my point is not that only Devanagari is to be used for writing Samskrita. My point is whatever script, Indic or western (using a transliteration scheme), is used to write Samskrita, the Samskrita words should be written the way they are pronounced in Samskrita. Consistent and accurate representation/transliteration, in any script.

Right. This is a huge issue in India, but in Ayurvedic books it's really bad. Almost impossible to find correct IAST, everything is mixed.

 

So instead of using तंत्र/તંત્ર/ತಂತ್ರ  etc which is the practice for works in Prakrits (for whatever historical reasons), works in Samskrita should use the representation तन्त्र/તન્ત્ર/ತನ್ತ್ರ when printed in Nagari/Gujarati/Kannada script. Even in works of older presses, we do not see the latter forms in standard publications like those of Nirnay Sagar Press.

Did not knew about the Prakrit practice, very interesting. I deal with the same issue, correcting an old edition of a Sanskrit-Russian dictionary. Some words go anusvaram way, some go the correct nasal way. Both together - a mess.

 

Another example - the front inner cover flap of the book has IAST transliteration for Samskrita names at some places - Parāśara, Varāhamihira,  Ballālasena. But in the same flap at other places the scheme is different - e.g. Parasara (for Parāśara) and Bhaskara (for Bhāskara). Same page uses two different transliterations for the same name - Parasara (परसर) and Parāśara (पराशर) - at two places. These errors are no doubt minor, but easy to detect. These are things all proofreaders are expected to detect and correct, and all authors are expected to pay attention to.

Yes, this is simple, yet so many authors fail to detect it. These are simple, yet very wise words. If IAST - always IAST. If anglicized Sanskrit, always anglicized Sanskrit. Never a mix. That poison can kill even an elephant.

 

I recall an incident in this regard. When the great scholar Acharya Hazariprasad Dwivedi was on his deathbed, his work सिक्ख गुरुओं का पुण्यस्मरण was not yet printed. He regretted that he would die (of brain tumour) before the book would be published. His last words to his son Mukund Dwivedi about the work were "Do not get it published yet. I could not see the typed manuscript. There should be no printing mistakes. Match all citations with Guru Grantha Sahib, either you do this yourself or ask Vishvanath (Vishvanath Tripathi) to do it. I do not know if I will live to see this published." I think that is what all authors and proofreaders should strive for - avoid as many errors as we can.

Yes, stories like that I've heard even before, but this is so strong. And on the other side there are authors who print books just for the sake of speed of printing. 5 mistakes per page on topics like Sanskrit - no, even if the author is a good person, it is not how books should be made.

M.G. 

[Shyamdev Mishra]

Congratulations to Prof. Iyengar. Hope that It will add  new avenue to exploren in the field of Astrology& Astronomy . Besides this I want to stop all toese palavers about words used by Prof. I

On Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 1:57 PM, Mārcis Gasūns <gas...@gmail.com> wrote:

This message is eligible for Automatic Cleanup! (gas...@gmail.com) Add cleanup rule | More info

Valuable addition, indeed, Nityanand,

  I must confess I value your detailed critical remarks a lot. Even if there is not love between us. I value you as a scholar, an eagle-eyed one.

On Saturday, 9 November 2013 05:41:40 UTC+4, Nityanand Misra wrote:

No my point is not that only Devanagari is to be used for writing Samskrita. My point is whatever script, Indic or western (using a transliteration scheme), is used to write Samskrita, the Samskrita words should be written the way they are pronounced in Samskrita. Consistent and accurate representation/transliteration, in any script.

Right. This is a huge issue in India, but in Ayurvedic books it's really bad. Almost impossible to find correct IAST, everything is mixed.

 

So instead of using तंत्र/તંત્ર/ತಂತ್ರ  etc which is the practice for works in Prakrits (for whatever historical reasons), works in Samskrita should use the representation तन्त्र/તન્ત્ર/ತನ್ತ್ರ when printed in Nagari/Gujarati/Kannada script. Even in works of older presses, we do not see the latter forms in standard publications like those of Nirnay Sagar Press.

Did not knew about the Prakrit practice, very interesting. I deal with the same issue, correcting an old edition of a Sanskrit-Russian dictionary. Some words go anusvaram way, some go the correct nasal way. Both together - a mess.

 

Another example - the front inner cover flap of the book has IAST transliteration for Samskrita names at some places - Parāśara, Varāhamihira,  Ballālasena. But in the same flap at other places the scheme is different - e.g. Parasara (for Parāśara) and Bhaskara (for Bhāskara). Same page uses two different transliterations for the same name - Parasara (परसर) and Parāśara (पराशर) - at two places. These errors are no doubt minor, but easy to detect. These are things all proofreaders are expected to detect and correct, and all authors are expected to pay attention to.

Yes, this is simple, yet so many authors fail to detect it. These are simple, yet very wise words. If IAST - always IAST. If anglicized Sanskrit, always anglicized Sanskrit. Never a mix. That poison can kill even an elephant.

 

I recall an incident in this regard. When the great scholar Acharya Hazariprasad Dwivedi was on his deathbed, his work सिक्ख गुरुओं का पुण्यस्मरण was not yet printed. He regretted that he would die (of brain tumour) before the book would be published. His last words to his son Mukund Dwivedi about the work were "Do not get it published yet. I could not see the typed manuscript. There should be no printing mistakes. Match all citations with Guru Grantha Sahib, either you do this yourself or ask Vishvanath (Vishvanath Tripathi) to do it. I do not know if I will live to see this published." I think that is what all authors and proofreaders should strive for - avoid as many errors as we can.

Yes, stories like that I've heard even before, but this is so strong. And on the other side there are authors who print books just for the sake of speed of printing. 5 mistakes per page on topics like Sanskrit - no, even if the author is a good person, it is not how books should be made.

M.G. 

--

निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to bvpar...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bvparishat.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

--

Dr. Shyam Dev Mishra

Assistant Professor & Co-ordinator (Jyotish)
Mukta Swadhyaya Peetham
( Institute of Distance Education)
Rastriya Sanskrit Sansthan

Janakpuri, New Delhi -110058

[Mārcis Gasūns]

Dear Dr. Mishra,

On Tuesday, 12 November 2013 12:56:42 UTC+4, Shyamdeo Mishra wrote:

Congratulations to Prof. Iyengar. Hope that It will add  new avenue to exploren in the field of Astrology& Astronomy . Besides this I want to stop all toese palavers about words used by Prof. I

Jyotish is a very interesting topic. Let us make (typographically) better books than Rao did long ago in his Jaiminisutras. We are palavers. We value grammar and precision. A scientific books with misprints is not a scientific book anymore, it becomes more like a hobby. The listed above issues should be fixed by whatever cost. Otherwise it's not science. Is it?

M.G.

[pravesh vyas]

I agree Mārcis Gasūns

On Wednesday, November 6, 2013 7:57:37 PM UTC+5:30, rniyengar wrote: