vAkya-panchAnga errors.
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विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)
Jun 25, 2020, 12:24:17 AM6/25/20
to bhAratIya-vidvat-pariShad भारतीय-विद्वत्परिषद्
(I don't have AK Kaul's email id - if someone does please cc him.)
I am collecting vAkya-panchAnga errors such the below recent one in my notes at https://vvasuki.github.io/saMskAra/jyotisham/history/errors/ :
- June 21 2020 was a special day - it was the solstice day, there was an annular solar eclipse visible from India (with peak at 11:47:35 am IST), and it naturally was amAvAsyA until 11:47:35 am IST. vAkya-panchAnga-s had obvious errors with regards to sun-moon conjunction (and consequently eclipse and end of amAvAsyA) - so tithi junction was till 12:30 or so. Some ritualists simply followed pop culture and used more accurate dRk-panchAnga-s for eclipse observances; while following vAkya-panchanga regarding parva-rituals! Such inconsistency! So, they incorrectly conducted sthAlIpAka the following day. (Not to mention, they must have continued saying "uttarAyaNe" in their sankalpa-s as well.)
Besides the above and the like (wrong conjunctions involving other graha-s like budha, guru etc..), what other classes of errors do vAkya-panchAnga-s make?
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Vishvas /विश्वासः
Vishvas /विश्वासः
S Venkatraman
Jun 25, 2020, 2:42:39 AM6/25/20
to bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Mr A K Kaul is a member of this group. When he sees your mail, he may himself respond. Regards,
Venkatraman
Sent from my iPhone
On 25-Jun-2020, at 9:54 AM, विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki) <vishvas...@gmail.com> wrote:
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Jijith Nadumuri Ravi
Jun 25, 2020, 10:34:29 AM6/25/20
to bvpar...@googlegroups.com, A K Kaul
Dear Sri AK Kaul ji
Please see below communication.
Regards
Jijith
Jijith Nadumuri Ravi
Former Scientist ISRO,
Founder -Dharma Digital, AncientVoice
Dharma Digital:- Dharmic revival through holograms, virtual worlds and digital technologies
AncientVoice:- World's 1st and Largest Veda-Puruana-Itihasa wiki portal website with 23700 plus pages
A K Kaul
Jun 25, 2020, 12:46:38 PM6/25/20
to Jijith Nadumuri Ravi, Bharatiya Vidvat parishad
Dear Shri Jijith,
Jai Shri Ram!
Many thanks for your mail.
As I receive every mail from the august forum bvp I have seen it already.
You might be aware that it always takes some time to collect relevant material for answering a ticklish issue without hurting anybody's feelings. Hence the delay.
Kindly bear with me till then.
In the meantime, I find that there has been an indifferent attitude towards my earlier mails in response to Shri Radhakrishna Warrier's mails. It really puts a person off!
I find it next to impossible to abide by the Law-giver Manu's admonishments:
सत्यँ ब्रूयात् प्रियँ ब्रूयात् न ब्रूयात् सत्यमप्रियँ।।
असत्यँ च प्रियँ न ब्रूयात् एष धर्मः सनातनः।।
With regards and Jai Shri Ram!
A K Kaul
A K Kaul
Jun 28, 2020, 1:01:51 PM6/28/20
to Bharatiya Vidvat parishad, sivaraman T.V
Dear Shri Vishvas Vasuki,Jai Shri Ram!Your mail is really very interesting in the sense that it has touched some raw nerves!You have made an interesting inquiry
<Besides the above and the like (wrong conjunctions involving other graha-s like budha, guru etc..), what other classes of errors do vAkya-panchAnga-s make?>
I have also gone through your findings atThere is a saying in Punjabi तन नहीं बिगड़ी है ताना ही बिगडा है"It is not that just a couple of threads are loose but the entire loom is not functioning properly!"Nirayana Panchangas are niraadhaar!Vakya Panchangas are supposed to have started from the sutras of Vara Ruchi of Kerala of 4th century CE and continued by later astronomers of South India, two of whom have had similar names of Vara-Ruchi, and continued preparing "vakyas" up to about 14th century.Munjal of tenth century has advised in his Laghumanasa to add one arc-minute per year to the mean longitudes of the planets of the Surya Siddhanta and Aryabhatiya etc. for making them tally with the observed positions of the sun etc.The reason behind the same is that in Shaka 444 i.e. 522 CE the mean longitudes of the SS etc. tallied almost exactly with the observed positions. This will be clear from the attachment "Shaka44-SS". It is worth mentioning here that the mean longitudes of the Old SS and Aryabhatiya etc. tallied almost exactly with the so called sayana i.e. tropical mean longitudes of planets as per modern astronomy and not any Lahiri or Ramana etc. nirayana longitudes!This situation must have prevailed prior to and later than Shaka 444 for a century or so. Thus in the fourth century, when Vara Ruchi had prepared the sutras, there is every possibility that the formulae of the SS were not far from the exact results. So, Vara-Ruchi prepared an''easy-to-use-handbook" which was correct for that period. Later on, if there have been any beeja corrections, just possible those were not up to the mark, and hence the difference!These are thus works like Grahalaghva and Makaranda, both of them having been based on the Surya Siddhanta formulae with some insignificant "beeja corrections"This is what I have learnt from the internet and from some colleagues like Shri T V Sivaraman, a selfless Tamilian Brahmin from Chennai, whose "Reformed Hindu Calendar" for the current year is attached.This will give you correct dates and timings for all the festivals, fairs and muhurtas for the current year.(If anybody wants its Malyalam "version" he/she may kindly write to venksiva2015-at-gmail-dot-com.)In Kashmir of yore, when the timings of eclipses of the Panchangas there did not tally at all with the actual timings, as they were calculated from Graha-Laghava or Makaranda etc., we were told that it was because of the sins being committed by the public that the eclipses are not taking place at proper timings!It is a really helpless situation!More ironically than anything else, if we compare Vakya-vis-a-vis-siddhanta (known as aarsha )-vis-a-vis-drik-ganitam panchangas, the fact of the matter is that since they are all, including the "drik-panchangas" like the Rashtriya Panchanga itself--- nirayana --in one or the other form----and not even sidereal, which they claim to be---they are therefore niraadhaar i.e. without any basis/foundation from any shastra or siddhanta, much less modern astronomy!They are all, without exception, against the letter and spirit of the entire Vedic lore, including the fifth Veda i.e. the Itihasas and Puranas so much so that even against the letter and spirit of the very Surya Siddhanta through Brahma-Sphuta-Siddhanta- to the last viz. Siddhanta Shiromani of Bhaskaracharya of 12th century!No Rashis in the Vedas:I had earlier requested all the respected members of this august forum as well as other forums to kindly quote even a single reference from any of the Vedas or the Vedangas that has talked of Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis, whether sayana or nirayana, in the astrological sense, but I have yet to have any response from any one!Similarly, I had requested these very scholars to kindly quote even a single shloka from any Purana or Itihasa or even the Siddhantas that has talked about a Makar Samkranti that is not the shortest day of the year, or any Karkata Samkranti which is not the longest day of the year or any Mesha or Tula Samkranti when the days and nights are not equal.I have yet to hear from any of the respected members.The Vedic year, including that of the Panchama Veda, is seasonal and not niraadhaar nirayana!We are told that the Vedic-cum-Hindu astronomy is sidereal and that is why "Vedic astrology" also is sidereal! Sometimes, they put it the other way round i.e. Hindu astrology is sidereal because the Vedas talk of a sidereal Rashichakra and so do the siddhantas!Now here is my third request to all the respected members of this august forum and other forums also to cite even a single reference from the Vedic lore which has talked of a year that is other than the seasonal year!Here are some proofs:1. The very first and the oldest viz. the Rig-Veda 1/164/12 says ‘‘पंचपादं पितरं द्वादशाकृतिं दिव आहुः परे अर्धे पुरीषिणं। अथेमे अन्य उपरे विचक्षणं सप्त चक्रे षडर आहुरर्पितं‘‘!Acharya Sayana has commented as follows:पञ्चपादं पञ्च संख्याकर्त्वात्म्कपादोपेतं | एतद्धेमन्त शिशिरर्योरेक्त्वाभिप्रायं | पितरं सर्वस्य प्रीणयितारं द्वादशाकृतिं द्वादश मासा एवाकृतयो यस्य तादृशं पुरीषिणं वृष्ट्युदकेन तद्वन्तं प्रीणयितारम् वा | पुरीषमित्युदक् नाम | उक्त लक्षणं संवत्सर चक्रं दिवो द्युलोकस्य परेSर्धे |परस्मिन्नर्धे अन्तरिक्षलक्षणे अवस्थित आदित्य इत्यर्थः | तस्मिन्नर्पितमाहु:| एतदुत्तरत स्थितमत्राप्य्नुषज्ज्य्ते| यद्यत्रार्पितं तत्तदधीनं अतः संवत्सरं सूर्यायत्तमाहुरित्यर्थः ....अयनर्तुमासपक्षाहोरात्रि मुहूर्तानि सप्त सप्त चक्राणि पुनः पुनः क्रममानानि यस्य तादृशे | षडरे षड्रितवेवारा नाभौ प्रत्यरितः ....A running translation of the same could be "Some realized Rishis claim that the Prajapati in the form of Time has five feet i.e. seasons (out of the six seasons, Hemanta and Shishira have been clubbed together and hence five seasons only). He who has twelve forms in the shape of twelve months, and pleases every one through rains. Such a Samvatsara that is under the command of the sun is stationed in the antariksha. It keeps on revolving through two Ayanas i.e. Solstices, seasons, months, fortnights, days, nights and Muhurtas--these are the seven wheels which keep on moving. Six seasons are the six spokes which are fixed to the centre of the wheel (of Samvatsarah)"It is very clear that the definition of a year is two Solstices, six seasons, twelve months, two fortnights of each month, days, nights and muhurtas!Here (lunar) fortnights have been clubbed with solar months, which are further subsumed in seasons and Ayanas!Obviously, it is out and out a seasonal year which is euphemistically known as tropical year!Prior to the above we learn in 1/25/8 of the same Rig-Veda about an adhika-masa ---an intercalary lunar month!‘‘वेद मासो धृत व्रतो द्वादश प्रजावतः। वेदा य उपजायते‘‘ . That is also subsumed in the seasonal solar years.Purusha Sukta and the seasons:The same Rigveda has the Purusha-Sukta (Hymn to the Man)वसन्तोSस्यासीदाज्यम् ग्रीष्म इध्मः शरद्धविः''Spring was it's clarified butter, Summer it's sacred fire and Sharat Ritu it's sacrificial offerings''Thus here also seasons are referred to as ''limbs" of a sacrificial Purusha-Pashu!(To be contd..)
With regards and Jai Shri Ram!A K Kaul
On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 9:54 AM विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki) <vishvas...@gmail.com> wrote:
Vishvas /विश्वासः
Radhakrishna Warrier
Jun 28, 2020, 11:44:42 PM6/28/20
to Bharatiya Vidvat parishad, sivaraman T.V
Avtar Kaul ji, your posts are quite interesting.
So, as I understand it, you are saying that, in the Vedic age:
1. The months were in sync with the season
2. Although the months were lunar (based on the phase of the moon), the year was solar as they added intercalary months as needed
3. They did not use the Raashi Chakra (the circle of zodiac as we know today) of Makara, Kumbha and so on.
4. They did not use the concepts of the 27 (or 28) Nakshatras
5. The months were Madhu, Maadhava .. and not Chaitra, Vaishaakha …
6. They celebrated the equinoxes and the solstices at the correct time, not like today when Uttaraayana is celebrated on Makara Sankraanti which happens on January 14 or 15 nowadays.
This is interesting. How did the Vedic people find out when an intercalary month was needed? Did they calculate it in advance? Or did they just add it on the basis of observation of when the equinox arrived? They must have observed the heavens very
meticulously for all this. In this context, it may be remarked that the Arabs did not know how to add intercalary months, and they did not want the help of more knowledgeable Jews in this matter. So, the Islamic year (the Hijra year) is short by a few day
and the months cycle through the seasons.
Was the Vedanga Jyotisha that you mention available at the time of the composition of the Rig Veda, or was it developed much later? How did the Indian Raashi Chakra arise? Is there any foreign influence in this? The Indian Raashi chakra has striking
similarities to the Greek zodiac. Either they borrowed it from India, or we borrowed it from them.
Regards,
Radhakrishna Warrier
From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com <bvpar...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of A K Kaul <jyot...@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2020 10:01 AM
To: Bharatiya Vidvat parishad <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: sivaraman T.V <venksi...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} vAkya-panchAnga errors.
Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2020 10:01 AM
To: Bharatiya Vidvat parishad <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: sivaraman T.V <venksi...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} vAkya-panchAnga errors.
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विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)
Jun 29, 2020, 1:16:58 AM6/29/20
to bhAratIya-vidvat-pariShad भारतीय-विद्वत्परिषद्, sivaraman T.V
On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 9:14 AM Radhakrishna Warrier <radwa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
4. They did not use the concepts of the 27 (or 28) Nakshatras
Not sure what you mean by the above. They obviously listed the nakShatra-s - https://vvasuki.github.io/saMskAra/mantraH/lokAntaram/Rk/naxatra-suuktam/
6. They celebrated the equinoxes and the solstices at the correct time, not like today when Uttaraayana is celebrated on Makara Sankraanti which happens on January 14 or 15 nowadays.
I presume you've seen the series of articles starting: http://indiafacts.org/vedic-system-of-chronology/ ?
They must have observed the heavens very meticulously for all this.
No doubt!
विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)
Jun 29, 2020, 4:04:04 AM6/29/20
to bhAratIya-vidvat-pariShad भारतीय-विद्वत्परिषद्, sivaraman T.V
So, Vara-Ruchi prepared an''easy-to-use-handbook" which was correct for that period. Later on, if there have been any beeja corrections, just possible those were not up to the mark, and hence the difference!These are thus works like Grahalaghva and Makaranda, both of them having been based on the Surya Siddhanta formulae with some insignificant "beeja corrections"This is what I have learnt from the internet and from some colleagues like Shri T V Sivaraman, a selfless Tamilian Brahmin from Chennai,
Could you please elaborate on this (preferably with references or quotations)? What are the "vAkyapanchanga"-s commonly used in south India?
whose "Reformed Hindu Calendar" for the current year is attached. This will give you correct dates and timings for all the festivals, fairs and muhurtas for the current year. (If anybody wants its Malyalam "version" he/she may kindly write to venksiva2015-at-gmail-dot-com.)
This is an admirable attempt. I'd use it if it had a few improvements (adhikamAsa computation as per kauNDinyAyana system, location specificity - noon times at Chennai and bengaLUru are different, muhUrta listing ...) Is there a website for this calendar? How is sAyanification/ tropicalization done (ie which naxatra is the sun taken to be during spring equinox)?
In Kashmir of yore, when the timings of eclipses of the Panchangas there did not tally at all with the actual timings, as they were calculated from Graha-Laghava or Makaranda etc., we were told that it was because of the sins being committed by the public that the eclipses are not taking place at proper timings!
Wow! Is this hearsay, or is there a textual record that I can note down?
More ironically than anything else, if we compare Vakya-vis-a-vis-siddhanta (known as aarsha )-vis-a-vis-drik-ganitam panchangas, the fact of the matter is that since they are all, including the "drik-panchangas" like the Rashtriya Panchanga itself--- nirayana --in one or the other form----and not even sidereal, which they claim to be---they are therefore niraadhaar i.e. without any basis/foundation from any shastra or siddhanta, much less modern astronomy!
I find this statement perplexing. For example, Could you demonstrate how rAShTriya panchAnga (whose naxatra positions are defined based on stellar offsets in 1950-s) is not sidereal - or atleast not approximately so?
They are all, without exception, against the letter and spirit of the entire Vedic lore, including the fifth Veda i.e. the Itihasas and Puranas so much so that even against the letter and spirit of the very Surya Siddhanta through Brahma-Sphuta-Siddhanta- to the last viz. Siddhanta Shiromani of Bhaskaracharya of 12th century!
I find this sentence very hard to parse. Could you rewrite it as a more comprehensible paragraph?
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A K Kaul
Jun 30, 2020, 6:41:04 AM6/30/20
to Bharatiya Vidvat parishad, sivaraman T.V
Dear Shri Vishvas Vasuki,
PS
This mail is being resent as there were some hiccups with the earlier posting!
AKK
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A K Kaul
Jul 1, 2020, 4:28:19 AM7/1/20
to Bharatiya Vidvat parishad, sivaraman T.V
Dear Shri Vishvas Vasukiji,
Jai Shri Ram!
Shri T V Sivaraman has sent me a mail about Vakya-Panchangas, the relevant excerpts of which are :
Quote
There are several Vakya panchangams in Tamil nadu, the famous being the Pampu (snake) panchangam, Thanigai Panchangam, Sri Rangam Panchangam, Garudan Panchangam, Arcot Sitarama Iyer panchangam and so on.
There will invariably be a difference in timings between drik Ganitha and Vakya Panchangam. But they invariably take the Drik calculation to show correct timings of eclipses (so that they make believe their system is ancient and also accurate).
Some of them, especially Arcot Sita Rama Iyer panchangam, make some predictions about weather and politics that have proved accurate. May be a case of making correct predictions from wrong data. The attached will show their predictions.
I do not understand or believe in Vakya (actually I do not know it). As we progress we have to discard the old systems for a better and accurate one. There is no need for hanging on the old. Of course they were admirable in those days when there were no means of calculating these accurately. Only approximation. But when it is possible now we need not cling on them.
Unquote
He has also sent me the information about "Vakya-Panchanga" predictions being true and also the details about Panchanga. Both these papers are attached.
Regarding Shri Sivaraman's view about "correct predictions from incorrect data", I recall as to how several decades back people would throng to my maternal grandpa for knowing their future and also remedial measures for their problems!
And I do not remember even a single person who seems to have been dissatisfied either with the predictions or the remedial measures like "Gayatri mantra Japa", "Maha-mrityunjayana Mantra japa" or "Bhavani Sahasra-nama recitation" , "Acharya Abhinavgupta Stotra recitation" etc. etc.! Sometimes he would advise to have 'pradakshina" of "Hari-Parbhat" continuously for forty days in the early morning!
He never charged anything either in cash or kind from anybody, as his requirements were fulfilled through his salary as Samskrit teacher in a college in Kashmir.
Very late in the day I realized that the horoscopes that my grand-father prepared were from the same "Panchang" of Kashmir that was prepared from either Graha-Laghava or Makaranda or Khanda-khadyaka! None of those astronomical handbooks had any semblance of being correct vis-a-vis modern astronomy---they were absolutely meaningless and wrong!
Not so surprisingly, he had made quite a few predictions about my horoscope, which proved correct cent-per-cent, but ironically, he had never predicted that I would take up cudgels against the gamut of niraadhar niraayana festivals and fasts and muhurtas!
So it was really a matter of "correct predictions from incorrect data"!
As compared to the same, when I was in astrology, I had made some correct predictions OF MUNDANE ASTROLOGY from an out and out Western system---Secondary progressions and Tropical Rashis, for which I was awarded NOSTRADAMUS AWARD by Express Star Teller!
Similarly, some KP astrologers claimed that they could even predict the timing of "a trunk call maturing" in the days of yore when having a landline was a rare luxury!
That means that making correct predictions depends more on our ''sixth sense"---(intuition), selfless-services and above all our faith in Him !
But the main crux of this point right now is as to the real days of our fasts, fairs and muhurtas, vis-a-vis at least half-a-dozen ayanamshas floating around!
We have to sift grain from the chaff! The earlier the better, since we cannot be an ostrich hiding our neck under the sands on seeing a cat!
शुभस्य शीघ्रं
With regards and Jai Shri Ram!
A K Kaul
On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 3:17 PM A K Kaul <jyot...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Shri Vishvas Vasuki,
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विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)
Jul 1, 2020, 7:36:40 AM7/1/20
to bhAratIya-vidvat-pariShad भारतीय-विद्वत्परिषद्, Narayan Prasad, sivaraman T.V
On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 4:11 PM A K Kaul <jyot...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Shri Vishvas Vasuki,
+narAyan prasad .
No idea what you mean by outdated. How so?
Thanks for the info!
Very illuminating! Could you or someone else give me a concrete example (specifying date and time) of "कभी-कभी तो 'ग्रहण होगा या नहीं'- इसका निर्णय सौरपक्ष से सम्भव नहीं होता।" ?
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विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)
Jul 1, 2020, 7:40:59 AM7/1/20
to bhAratIya-vidvat-pariShad भारतीय-विद्वत्परिषद्, sivaraman T.V
On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 1:58 PM A K Kaul <jyot...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Shri Vishvas Vasukiji,Jai Shri Ram!Shri T V Sivaraman has sent me a mail about Vakya-Panchangas, the relevant excerpts of which are :QuoteThere are several Vakya panchangams in Tamil nadu, the famous being the Pampu (snake) panchangam, Thanigai Panchangam, Sri Rangam Panchangam, Garudan Panchangam, Arcot Sitarama Iyer panchangam and so on.There will invariably be a difference in timings between drik Ganitha and Vakya Panchangam. But they invariably take the Drik calculation to show correct timings of eclipses (so that they make believe their system is ancient and also accurate).
Thanks! This is useful info.
I do not understand or believe in Vakya (actually I do not know it).
It would be interesting to know their origins and accuracy more clearly - if only for historical interest. Are these texts available online?
A K Kaul
Jul 2, 2020, 11:59:46 AM7/2/20
to Bharatiya Vidvat parishad, sivaraman T.V
Dear Shri Vishvas Vasuki,
Jai Shri Ram!
Herewith further details about Vara Ruchi from Shri T V Sivaraman which he has gathered from the internet!
With regards and Jai Shri Ram!
A K Kaul
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A K Kaul
Jul 3, 2020, 5:01:53 AM7/3/20
to Bharatiya Vidvat parishad
Dear Shri Radhakrishna Warrier,
Jai Shri Ram!
Thank you for your response!
<1. The months were in sync with the season>
Very true.
<2. Although the months were lunar (based on the phase of the moon), the year was solar as they added intercalary months as needed>
The year was solar and seasonal, i. e. tropical. Some mantras from the Rig-Veda like 1/164/11 claim that a year has (360 days and) 720 days+nights.
द्वादशारं नहितज्जराय वर्वर्ति चक्रं परिद्यामृतस्य | आ पुत्रा अग्ने मिथुनासो अत्र सप्त शत्तानि विंशतिश्च तस्थुः ||
It has talked about (a year of) twelve months with 720 days and nights
Aitreya Brahmana 7/17 has repeated the same thing in the following words in a more explicit manner
त्रीणि वै शतानि षष्टिश्चानूच्यानि यज्ञकामस्य त्रीणि च वै शतानि षष्टिश्च सम्वत्सरस्याहानि तावान् संवत्सरः संवत्सरः प्रजापतिः प्रजापतिर्यज्ञ ...सप्त च वै शतानि विंशतिश्च सम्वत्सरस्याहोरात्रास्तावान्संवत्सरः ||
"A Samvatsarah has 360 days, Samvatsarah is Prajapatih and a Samvatsarah has 720 days and nights put together". Acharya Sayana has explained these mantras in a detailed manner (Attachment Aitreya-Brahamana-Samvatsarah)
A solar month has thus 30 days each. However, a mean seasonal---tropical--- year has actually about 365.242 days.
A synodic lunar month has 29.531 days. Twelve such lunar months = 354.372 days. The solar year of the RV and Ai. Br. etc. with 360 days has thus 5.63 days more than the "synodic lunar year" whereas the actual seasonal year has 10.87 days more than the "synodic lunar year". There was thus a mismatch between the solar year and a lunar period of twelve months
Though an adhika-masa in the form of Samsarpa has been referred to in the Vedic lore several times, but we have no idea as to how they were "calculated" in those days.
A synodic lunar month has 29.531 days. Twelve such lunar months = 354.372 days. The solar year of the RV and Ai. Br. etc. with 360 days has thus 5.63 days more than the "synodic lunar year" whereas the actual seasonal year has 10.87 days more than the "synodic lunar year". There was thus a mismatch between the solar year and a lunar period of twelve months
Though an adhika-masa in the form of Samsarpa has been referred to in the Vedic lore several times, but we have no idea as to how they were "calculated" in those days.
Vedanga Jyotisha and Adhika-masa:
The Vedanga Jyotisha, on the other hand, talks of a solar year of 366 days and advises to have two intercalary months in a yuga of five years of 1830 days---almost every two and a half years each.
In the former case of the Rig-Veda and Aitreya-Brahmana, where a year is said to have 360 days, an adhika-masa (intercalary month) would occur about every 5.33 years whereas in the latter case of the VJ it could occur every 2.75 years.
The main purpose of adhika-masa was to keep the lunar months aligned to seasonal solar months, unlike what is being done today----to keep the lunar months aligned to''almighty" Lahiri solar months which are neither seasonal nor sidereal!
<3. They did not use the Raashi Chakra (the circle of zodiac as we know today) of Makara, Kumbha and so on.>
Yes. There are/were no Mesha etc. Rashis in any of the Vedas or the Vedangas. However, we find mention of seasonal i.e. troppical Mesha etc. Rashis times without number in the Puranas, known as Panchama Veda.
<
4. They did not use the concepts of the 27 (or 28) Nakshatras>
Nakshatras have been discussed times without number in the Vedas, sometimes 27 and sometimes 28 including Abhijit. But it is extremely doubtful that during the period of the Rig-Veda and even Yajurveda, 27 equal nakshatra divisions were in use. But in the time of the Vedanga Jyotisha, we find 27 equal nakshatra divisions, starting from Krittika, because the Vernal Equinox was just entering the Krittika equal division, as the longitude of Eta Tauri ---Alcyone---was about 13 degrees in 1400 BCE, the epoch of the VJ. (Attachment VJ year 1399 BC).
However, we find the Krittika nakshatra having been referred to in the Shatapatha Brahmana and other Vedic lore as the first nakshatra. The Shatapatha Brahmana has said in 2/1/2 that whereas the other nakshatras have one or two stars but the Krittika nakshatra has as many as six stars. (Attachment Sh. Br. nakshatraas)
It means that even before 14th century BCE, Vernal Equinox was in Krittika division. It is therefore possible that because of having a larger number of stars than other nakshatras, this nakshatra division was larger than others and that is why Shatapatha Brahmana is categorical that एता ह वै प्राच्यो दिशो न च्यवन्ते | सर्वाणि ह् वै यानि नक्षत्राणि प्राच्यो दिशश्च्यवन्ते "These stars of Krittika do not move from the East though other nakshatras do so"
Eta Tauri i.e. Alcyone, a star of Pleiades group of Taurus constellation is supposed to be the main star of Krittika nakshatra as per the Surya Siddhanta etc. and as per Wikipedia,
The main star, Alcyone A, consists of three components, the brightest being a blue-white B-type giant similar to many of the other B-type stars in the Pleiades cluster. It has an apparent magnitude of +2.87 (absolute magnitude = −2.39), and a radius almost 10 times that of the Sun. Its temperature is approximately 13,000 K giving it a total luminosity that is 2,400 times solar. The spectral type of B7IIIe indicates that emission lines are present in its spectrum. Like many Be stars, Alcyone A has a high rotational velocity of 149 km/s, which has created a gaseous disk flung into orbit around the star from its equator.
So Krittika division had certainly more number of stars and that is why the Vernal Equinox was ''hovering" in that division even before the Vedanga Jyotisha of Acharya Lagadha!
It is, therefore, just possible that because of ease of calculation, Acharya Lagadha had resorted to this system of equal divisions, eliminating Abhijit. and starting from Krittika.
<
5. The months were Madhu, Maadhava .. and not Chaitra, Vaishaakha …>
Yes, Chaitra, Vaishakha etc. names are very late entries in the Vedic lore. There is nothing on record to show that the Vedas talked of Chaitra etc. months in terms of the Full Moon being conjunct Chitra etc. nakshatras. Madhu, Madhava etc. were interchangeable for solar and lunar months! But at the same time, we must put on record that it was extremely difficult for the Vedic seers and even Acharya Lagadha and his successors to determine the exact transit day of the sun from Madhu to Madhava and so on. As such, they had to depend more on lunar tithis for calculating even solar months!
<6. They celebrated the equinoxes and the solstices at the correct time, not like today when Uttaraayana is celebrated on Makara Sankraanti which happens on January 14 or 15 nowadays.>
Acharya Lagadha has give exact definitions of the Solstices and Equinoxes in the VJ in the following words:
घर्मवृद्धिरपाम्प्रस्थः क्षपाह्रास उदग्गतौ || दक्षिणेतौ विपर्यस्तौ शन्मुहुर्त्यनेन तु ||
"During the sun's northward journey, the day increases by one prastha of water and the night becomes short. During the southward journey, the conditions reverse. The increase of time during an Ayana is equal to six muhurtas."
Thus it is very clear that Acharya Lagadha knew that the day starts increasing from Uttarayana, but he was wrong when he said that it would increase "by one prastha of water" everyday, since the days do not increase uniformly at all. Similarly, his presumption that the days would increase exactly by six muhurtas during an Ayana is also not correct.
Similarly, in the 31st and 33rd mantra of the Rik-Jyotsham he has discussed Vishuvan. But they are not to be determined by calculations but with the help of tithis, that too determined from mean longitudes of the Moon and the sun----which are away by light years from the exact mean longitudes of modern astronomy!
In a nutshell, we can just only bown our heads in reverence to the attempts of Acharya Lagadha and his predecessors who have made such valiant efforts for determining the proper timing for performing sacrifices more than 3500 years back!
We must also realize here that unlike the fictitious "Maya the Mahasura", Acharya Lagadha has not taken the Hindu populace of Bharatavarsha for a ride by ascribing his knowledge to any ''tapasya and Vardaan of Surya Bhagwan", that too about twenty lakhs of years back!!
<
This is interesting. How did the Vedic people find out when an intercalary month was needed? Did they calculate it in advance? Or did they just add it on the basis of observation of when the equinox arrived? They must have observed the heavens very
meticulously for all this. >
It was all an approximation! Intercalation has been talked about in the Rigv-Veda, but we do not know how they calculated it! It is only in the VJ where we get some idea as to how it was calculated!
With the limited resources available in an inhospitable area like Mahapadmasar (Wular-Lake) of 3500 years back, it was impossible to calculate an equinox or solstice properly to even the nearest day, leave alone the nearest hour, much less the nearest minute! That is why we find a solar year of 366 days in the VJ, a solar year of 360 days in the Rigveda and the Aitreya Brahmana etc. Even in the siddhantic period, which started in the early centuries of CE, it was a Herculean task to calculate the VE or Solstice properly and that is why we find the duration of a tropical year of the Surya Siddhanta---(Vernal Equinox to Vernal Equinox) even more than that of a sidereal year by 8 palas!
< In this context, it may be remarked that the Arabs did not know how to add intercalary months, and they did not want the help of more knowledgeable Jews in this matter.>
Regarding the Hejira/Islamic calendar, to start with they also followed intercalary months. As there was no information about an ''adhika-masa" of Mecca in other parts of the world and very often, when people went for a Haj, they had to wait for a month or so because an adhika-masa was going on and no religious ceremonies like Haj etc. could be performed then. As such, it was completely eliminated, for the convenience of the common man, and a purely synodic lunar month was resorted to! (Attachment Islamic-calendar-was-intercalary)
<
Was the Vedanga Jyotisha that you mention available at the time of the composition of the Rig Veda, or was it developed much later? >
No, the VJ is a much later work after the Rigveda, as it is of about 14th/15th century BCE. Since it has informed that it was being calculated for deciding the proper timings of the Vedic rituals (AND NOT FOR PREPARING HOROSCOPES of Vasishitha, Vishvamitra etc. Rishis!) , it means those rituals had been going on for quite some time and a need was felt for preparing a handbook for calculating the beginning/ending timings of tithi, nakshatra, masa (including adhika-masa) ritu etc. for deciding such proper timings!
<
How did the Indian Raashi Chakra arise? Is there any foreign influence in this? The Indian Raashi chakra has striking
similarities to the Greek zodiac. Either they borrowed it from India, or we borrowed it from them.>
Regarding the Rashis and their "arrival" in India from the Greeks or vice-versa, I shall discuss it in the next mail!
With regards and Jai Shri Ram!
A K Kaul
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Nagaraj Paturi
Jul 3, 2020, 5:12:27 AM7/3/20
to Bharatiya Vidvat parishad
Good reference
द्वादशारं नहितज्जराय वर्वर्ति चक्रं परिद्यामृतस्य | आ पुत्रा अग्ने मिथुनासो अत्र सप्त शत्तानि विंशतिश्च तस्थुः || 1/164/11
Griffith's translation :
11 Formed with twelve spokes, by length of time, unweakened, rolls round the heaven this wheel of during Order.
Herein established, joined in pairs together, seven hundred Sons and twenty stand, O Agni.
Herein established, joined in pairs together, seven hundred Sons and twenty stand, O Agni.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAGfmG5qd_Mdo%3DE4XgWRiTbUh1f-FxMXgJo4FGYBE0u5whZq%2BMA%40mail.gmail.com.
Nagaraj Paturi
Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
Director, Inter-Gurukula-University Centre , Indic Academy
BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru.
Member, Advisory Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthanam, Bengaluru
Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies,
FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education,
Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
Venkatesh Murthy
Jul 3, 2020, 3:34:05 PM7/3/20
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Namaste
The most famous astrologer today is with no doubt Sri PVR Narasimha Rao. He has predicted correctly major events.
See what he says -
'However, zodiacal signs are supposed to be aligned to nakshatras, which correspond to constellations of stars in the sky. For example, the sign of Aries should contain Aswini nakshatra, Bharani nakshatra and a part of Krittika nakshatra. If we use the tropical zodiac, signs will slowly shift with time and point to different nakshatras in different eras. This is totally inconsistent with the teachings of rishis.'
Therefore he is following the Nirayana System based on Nakshatras only and not Sri AK Kaul's Tropical Panchanga. Sri AK Kaul's saying Nirayana is Niraadhaar itself is Niraadhaar.
See the complete paper - https://www.vedicastrologer.org/articles/pp_ayanamsa.pdf
On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 2:31 PM A K Kaul <jyot...@gmail.com> wrote:
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Regards
-Venkatesh
विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)
Jul 3, 2020, 8:36:39 PM7/3/20
to bhAratIya-vidvat-pariShad भारतीय-विद्वत्परिषद्
On Sat, Jul 4, 2020 at 1:04 AM Venkatesh Murthy <vmur...@gmail.com> wrote:
NamasteThe most famous astrologer today is with no doubt Sri PVR Narasimha Rao. He has predicted correctly major events.
The gentleman predicted that Trump would loose. Prompltly deleted his FB post as soon as someone reminded him of his "prediction" after Trump won. Thankfully this prediction about Tibetan independence in the next 10 years is on video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKpPaKIvN5c&feature=youtu.be .
It would be better if shrI PVR narasimha rAv were more famous for his excellent role in spreading homa rituals.
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विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)
Jul 3, 2020, 8:51:34 PM7/3/20
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On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 2:31 PM A K Kaul <jyot...@gmail.com> wrote:
< 4. They did not use the concepts of the 27 (or 28) Nakshatras>Nakshatras have been discussed times without number in the Vedas, sometimes 27 and sometimes 28 including Abhijit. But it is extremely doubtful that during the period of the Rig-Veda and even Yajurveda, 27 equal nakshatra divisions were in use. But in the time of the Vedanga Jyotisha, we find 27 equal nakshatra divisions, starting from Krittika, because the Vernal Equinox was just entering the Krittika equal division, as the longitude of Eta Tauri ---Alcyone---was about 13 degrees in 1400 BCE, the epoch of the VJ. (Attachment VJ year 1399 BC).
You present one data point and produce the exact opposite conclusion!
Equinoctial point was exiting (not entering or hovering!) kRttikA and approaching bharaNI then, sir! (Please see this 2300BCE and this 1400BCE image - lower right corner arrows) Later still, it entered ashvinI. Also if you look at kRttikA in the night sky, these 6 stars are very closely clustered together - so it is very doubtful that they would justify giving kRttikA division excess width.
Given that Vedāñga Jyotiṣa states that the summer solstice began in the middle of आश्लेषाः (see bottom left arrows in 1400BCE image and extrapolate to 1300BCE when that happened), it hardly makes sense to claim that lagadha placed equinox in kRttikA.
Venkatesh Murthy
Jul 4, 2020, 12:27:06 AM7/4/20
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Namaste
But his logic is correct. If Nakshatras are totally neglected like Sri Kaul is saying there will be no basis for astrology predictions at all.
Why he neglects Nakshatras and only takes seasons I dont understand. Nakshatras are important. In our Vedas there is great importance given to Nakshatras. As a matter of fact Vidwan RN Iyengar of this group said for ancients Nakshatras are more important than Grahas even. There is Nakshatra Ishti and other important Yajnas in the Vedas
If you follow Tropical Panchanga of Kaul you will be celebrating all festivals in wrong Nakshatras. Why will anyone do that?
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Regards
-Venkatesh
Venkatakrishna Sastry
Jul 4, 2020, 1:30:52 AM7/4/20
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Namaste
It gives a feeling of sadness going through some of the 'bold statements', in this thread on ' Errors- Pachanga' and 'Vedanga Jyotisha ( also Known as Jyotir-Yoga and Jyotir-vijnana) in tradition.
Kaul has regurgitated his position enough times . And does not seem to get the essence of what VJ is for. Panchanga is only a handy tool, like the chart for predictions.
Regarding Vakya-Pachanga perceived errors, one needs to see why 'Vara-ruchi' - the Vartika-kaara on Panini provides the 'Vakya authority', How are we understanding the 'kaalarthaka taddhitas ' in Panini and guidance is provided for their use in ' mantra yoga -shastra' towards which 'Vakya- jyotisha practice' is aligned to. The integral connection of Samskrutham- Yoga and Jyotisha as a part of Vedanga is the backdrop of ' Vakya-paddhati'.
To understand 'Vakya' one needs to understand 'Vak'. In Vakya -siddhanta frame work this is called starting with the 'swara shaastra ( breath, sound and Prana) '. The Panchanga points to time cycles connected with thought becoming talk, a prashna for further analysis. This is a specific model of using 'Chandra' at the time of ' prashna', as is done in 'ashta-mangala prashna, kerala paddhati' etc;.
Without a totla clarity on this whole integration, how can we take a generic statement that 'Vakya' panchanga has errors ? If there are human erros of omission and commisison, calcualtion, well they need to be sorted out.
The sadness is due to several factors, mainly on good, serious, academic and interested scholars using most inappropriate and ' unscientiifc constructs' in deliberating the subject.
I do not know whether they have been 'taught the discipline with partial blinkers' or ' developed their perception about the discipline in a preferential way' in making the statements .
I am also not sure how many of these 'research-commentators' would get a ' pass criterion' to be called practitioners of 'Vednaga Jyotisha' before airing their claims on ' Vedanga Jyotisha errors' discovered through research'.
I submit a small note below before pushing the question : What is the method by which study, practice and research in Vedanga-Jyotisha' is made to discover these errors ?
Does the researcher stand the test of audit by the tradition given by by Maharshi Parashara, Jaimini, Varahamihira and eighteen other 'siddhanta' schools ?
Pushing the social shortocmings in the practice of VJ , certainly needs correction. Hype needs to be cut. Yes, it is a need and we have to address together.
Vedanga Jyotisha Educaiton needs a relook from its current model of ' Veda -sanitized, Astronomy anchored software generated tabulation, used for social sooth saying and prescribing costly remedial meausres in the name of 'vedic remedies. ' . The feeling can only be expressed requoting Kaul < There is a saying in Punjabi तन नहीं बिगड़ी है ताना ही बिगडा है >
And this reform needs to begin by a revisit on VJ syllabus formation: ' How and How much VJ- researcher needs the knowledge of Yoga and Samskrutham, the prequalification requisite for a ' Jyotishi' mentioned in some earlier post by professor Korada.
A brief note on Vedanga Jyotisha (VJ) basics, Basic axioms which are not inappropriately addresed in modern claimed research on VJ, projecting errors of 'They' ( the ancient Rushi's)
1. Basic Axioms in Vedanga Jyotisha: Kaala ( Modern material, biological, space and statistical scineces have no common vision or clarity. Therefore the primary need is to get the basics right).
1a. Kaala ( TIME): Kaala is 'Conscious'. Kaala is manifest form of Supreme Divine. Kaala has impact on ' Life -events ( good, bad, neutral)' by individual and contextual specificity.
1b. Kaala (TIME) Measure ( Ganita, Maana, Division) : There are multiple scales of Kaala. The 'Ho-Ra' is one model of time measure for human activity convenience.
Ho-Ra is locked to the 'day-night cycle' experienced at given locale (desha). Ho-Ra change-measure is only a small segment of ' Kaala-Maana'.
The kaala scale of measure extends on both sides of ' ghati- vighati' count model to a huge scale of 'yugas' and miniaturised model in nano scales, related to ' praana-sookshmataa'.
Constricting this vast scale and vision of Kaala-maana to the earth-scale of Gregorian calendar and a few thousand years ( around five thousand years ?? ) is like seeing elephant in the mirror.
Even the scpetic thinker needs to explain what part of the gregorian calendar time scale would fit in the measure of ' Ho-Ra' mentioned in Gita (8-17) :
sahasra-yuga-paryantam, ahar yad brahmaṇo viduḥ ; rātriṁ yuga-sahasrāntāṁ te 'ho-rātra-vido janāḥ. Is this ' Ho-Ra' refering to 24 hour cycle ??
The scales of time meausre used in Science by quartz clock frequency oscillation is only a partial segment map of VJ- Kaala-Maana.
The ' bhashaa-samskruth terms' in kaala-varga of amara kosha are for observed phenomenon (vyavahara) here on earth and in a given locale.
The 'Vedic term (Chandas) for Kaala are by sensing the ' Time- Motion' which goes to the speeds beyond the speed of light.
Do we have people, measure units, research capabiliites to get in to ths range of study ? Can Hubble telescope and space research probes help in VJ research ?
This would need a deliberation between ' Astrophysicists, Space scientists and VJ researchers'.
Using a NASA program to give a software plotting the sky map of solar system with stellar backdrop is a good and useful tool. But that is not enough for VJ Research.
Sri Narasimha rao ( and many others) have provided very useful tools that take off the calculation strain on practicing astrologers and quick solution seeking clients. There is more to be explored.
1c. Kaala (TIME) impacts, transforms and consumes Matter( Bhoota- Drvaya) , Energy (Shakti) and ' Life( Jeevi). In science, this dimesnion of TIME is not considered.
2. Basic Axioms in Vedanga Jyotisha: Karma (Destiny) ( Modern psychological, biological, social and statistical scineces have no common vision or clarity . The primary need is to get the basics right).
In VJ, the study is how Kaala is to be used for planning action (karma- samskara) benefit for freedom from suffering, maximising the comfort, improving the relations et al ( the 12 bhavas)
For this purpose, the Kaala-swaroopa template used in Graha- Nakshatra - Mandala. The distance of sun, Moon, grahas and nakshatras from earth ( Bhoo-kendra) is known to VJ.
Each element in the template here exerts a different force ( pra-bhaava, kaarakatva) on individual'( jeeva)'.
3. Basic Axiom: Phala ( Utility benefit). Branched Disciplines are built in VJ using these axioms to give phala pointers. Eg. Parashari, Jaimini, Naadi et al ( 18 systems ), their sub -disicplines, practice.
The entirety of VJ disciplines have evolved using the basic axioms of VJ to deliver disicplines which serve different needs of human socieites for comfort and spiritual seeking.
Each discipline uses its own measure and model ( Ganita- Siddhanta) derivatives from basic axioms. They are disicpline specific needs. They are not violative of basics or the ultimate goals.
For example, Vakya practitioners have their anchor to vararuchi -Vakyas ; practice prevalent in south India. Vakya-Panchanga is their reference table.
If the client has no pain that is addresed in 'vakya' system' there is no need to go after that disicpline. May be Nirayana, Barhaspatya models work.
If beyond India, like South asia, the rahu-ketu based systems of calculation ( Dragon math model) would be useful.
If one is a yogi seeking ' good muhurtha for sadhana', the naadi level calculation may be needed.
In this sense, VJ is anushaasanam. It is NOT off the shelf product. Certainly NOT the 'mechanized chart production, divisional charts, dasha-bhukti segmenting, and text-segment quoting for 'phala'.
The rule is फलानि ग्रहचारेण सूचयन्ति मनीषिणः 'Phala' is ' viisoned, divined, pointed to ( not committed)' by the ' daivajna- kaalajna- mauhoortika- kaartaantika ( one who knows the final result of the
action).
It is seeing through the veil of TIME-ACTION -DEATH TRANSITIONS ' Kaala-Karma- Mrutyu' as Gita (4-5) says :
sri-bhagavan uvaca- bahuni me vyatitani, janmani tava carjuna, tany aham veda sarvani, na tvam vettha parantapa
This is 12th house :Mode of Death (nidhana) connected to first house Birth / Re-Birth (janma).
Science is yet to provide a way of seeing beyond current moment to the past or the future. In science, Past analysis is DATA analyisis (Event over). Future analysis is logical trending. It is NOT visioning.
Regards
BVK Sastry
A K Kaul
Jul 4, 2020, 5:43:22 AM7/4/20
to Bharatiya Vidvat parishad
Dear Shri Venkatesh Murthy,
Jai Shri Ram!
Many thanks for your response, since unless I get some feedback, it looks like I am groping in the dark!
<The most famous astrologer today is with no doubt Sri PVR Narasimha Rao. He has predicted correctly major events.
Tough right now this topic is about festivals and their celebrations on correct days, however, since rightly or wrongly, "Vedic astrology" has become a part of "Hindu existence", I think the points raised by you must be addressed immediately!
Till a few decades back, Dr. B V Raman was known as the "Emperor among Vedic astrologers". In fact, he was the person responsible for spreading "Vedic astrology" throughout the globe through his "Astrological Magazine". Ironically, he used an Ayanamsha of his own, which was neither Lahiri nor Raivata nor even the so called Surya Siddhanta, much less the Grahalaghava ayanamsha, leave alone Pushya-Paksha!
I may also mention here that I had met Dr. B V Raman personally after his magazine had reviewed my "Shri Krishen Universal Ephemeris & Panchang" which advocated so called Sayana Rashichakra as it has been advocated in the Puranas, and though he had gone through the contents of my book he was very kind to say, "Tropical system is also a way of prediction and we can call it zero ayanamsha Rashichakra"!
I also met a couple of persons during my travelling life in South India, and they were all praise for Dr. Raman whom they had consulted in time of an emergency! What surprised me was their claim that Dr. Raman had made predictions without checking their horoscopes!
Thus If making correct predictions is the only criterion for accepting an Ayanamsha as "Vedic" then it is my humble request that we must give that honour to late Dr. B V Raman and his Ayanamsha! (Attachment BV Raman zero Ayanamsha)
Similarly, we must not forget that there are about a dozen prominent ayanamshas in the fray these days which will be clear from
In any case, thus, let the "Vedic astrologers" use whatever Ayanamsha and Rashichakra they want to but then, we must separate the gamut of fasts, fairs and festivals from the same and stop calling any kind of predictive astrology as "Vedic astrology" because there is no such thing in the Vedas!
<'However, zodiacal signs are supposed to be aligned to nakshatras, which correspond to constellations of stars in the sky. For example, the sign of Aries should contain Aswini nakshatra, Bharani nakshatra and a part of Krittika nakshatra. If we use the tropical zodiac, signs will slowly shift with time and point to different nakshatras in different eras. This is totally inconsistent with the teachings of rishis.>
Since we do not find any mention of Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis, whether so called sayana or so called nirayana in any of the Vedas or the Vedangas----Rashis
and even planets like, Mangal, Shani etc.
are conspicuous by their absence from the "Vedanga Jyotisham" itself, or even "Atharva Jyotisham"---though the latter talks of planets---we cannot ascribe clubbing of Rashis with nakshatras to the "rishis"!
Then again, almost the entire Pauranic lore talks about so called Sayana rashis, and we find Ashvini, Bharni etc. nakshatras being clubbed with so called Sayana Mesha etc. Rashis in the most respected Purana of the Vaishanavas and Advaitins viz. the Bhagavata Purana and Vamana Purana and so on!(Attachment Vamana-Purana-1)
Regarding predictive astrology from Sayana Rashis, kindly also go through the following article where we find that the Saptarshi nadi horoscopes that were discussed in this august forum a few days back also use tropical zodiac but with sidereal nakshatras!
That is really confusion worst confounded!
The following article also should be of interest!
That there were more than 27 nakshatras in the Vedas will be clear from the attachments "AV-nakshatras".
Similarly, Nakshatra divisions in India were unequal was testified by a foreigner viz. Alberuni in 11th century as will be clear from the attachment "Abhijit Division"
The following link also will give you some idea about the confusion regarding festivals!
In short, the Vedas do talk of nakshatras times without number but they never clubbed them with any Rashis, whether nirayana or sayana. Nakshatras had an independent sphere of their own in the Vedic lore, and they were certainly "worshipped" as will be clear from Nakshatra-Sutra etc. works. However, even that Nakshatra Sukta talks of twenty-eight nakshatras (Abhijit in 21st mantra, sans any Mesha etc. Rashis!)
So whichever way we look at it, nakshatras will have to be taken as unequal and Abhijit cannot be wished away!
With regards and Jai Shri Ram!
A K Kaul
On Sat, Jul 4, 2020 at 1:04 AM Venkatesh Murthy <vmur...@gmail.com> wrote:
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विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)
Jul 4, 2020, 10:30:00 AM7/4/20
to bhAratIya-vidvat-pariShad भारतीय-विद्वत्परिषद्
On Sat, Jul 4, 2020 at 9:57 AM Venkatesh Murthy <vmur...@gmail.com> wrote:
If you follow Tropical Panchanga of Kaul you will be celebrating all festivals in wrong Nakshatras. Why will anyone do that?
You sadly have it backwards there. Let me try to explain with a pair of concrete examples.
Take upAkarma. Apastamba says: "(आर्तव)श्रवणा(पूर्व)पक्ष ओषधीषु जातासु हस्तेन पौर्णमास्यां वा ऽध्यायोपाकर्म २". So, when do saplings sprout? At the beginning of the (khArif) rainy season, around the summer solstice time in north India. This happened to be shrAvaNa around 1000BCE. The crops don't srout when xyz-ayanAMsha based month happens to be "shrAvaNa". That's when adhyAya-upAkarma should be celebrated. Effectively, the naxatra-chakra should be "tropicalized" so that shrAvaNa pUrNimA falls around the time of solstice. People who claim to follow Apastamba by celebrating sometime in August are the same sort of comedians (unwitting or otherwise) who would "show" arundhati at noon during faux-vivAha rituals.
Then take sarpabali. Apastamba says: "श्रावण्यां पौर्णमास्यामस्तमिते स्थालीपाकः ५ ... मार्गशीर्ष्यां पौर्णमास्यामस्तमिते स्थालीपाकः ३", and recommends giving bali to sarpa-s between shrAvaNa pUrNimA and mArgashIrSha pUrNimA. The timing is again tuned to nature - rainy season is when snakes come out of their flooded homes, and incidence of snake bites increase. So, again, anyone more interested in the spirit as well as letter of the AchArya will offset the naxatra-chakra so that shrAvaNa falls around solstice time - yes, tropicalization again. It is again comical if people keep giving bali-s in December. (Of course, people can start saying that "sarpa-s" are not snakes and that it is some "yoga" to be out of sync with nature - but they're welcome to their private universe. I will stick to the AchArya Apastamba.)
Who celebrates events using suitably tropicalized naxatra-s? FYI, I do - been offering the daily bali-s for about a month now.
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Venkatesh Murthy
Jul 5, 2020, 3:12:42 AM7/5/20
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Namaste
On Sat, Jul 4, 2020 at 7:59 PM विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki) <vishvas...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, Jul 4, 2020 at 9:57 AM Venkatesh Murthy <vmur...@gmail.com> wrote:If you follow Tropical Panchanga of Kaul you will be celebrating all festivals in wrong Nakshatras. Why will anyone do that?You sadly have it backwards there. Let me try to explain with a pair of concrete examples.
If you follow seasons only you will give up Nakshatras. If you follow Nakshatras only you will give up seasons. Which is more important?
If you think seasons are important do according to your faith in seasons. You will always find some or other text to justify it. I think Nakshatras are important and I will follow them. And crores of Nirayana followers also do the same.
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Regards
-Venkatesh
विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)
Jul 5, 2020, 3:42:15 AM7/5/20
to bhAratIya-vidvat-pariShad भारतीय-विद्वत्परिषद्
On Sun, Jul 5, 2020 at 12:42 PM Venkatesh Murthy <vmur...@gmail.com> wrote:
Namaste
On Sat, Jul 4, 2020 at 7:59 PM विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki) <vishvas...@gmail.com> wrote:On Sat, Jul 4, 2020 at 9:57 AM Venkatesh Murthy <vmur...@gmail.com> wrote:If you follow Tropical Panchanga of Kaul you will be celebrating all festivals in wrong Nakshatras. Why will anyone do that?You sadly have it backwards there. Let me try to explain with a pair of concrete examples.If you follow seasons only you will give up Nakshatras. If you follow Nakshatras only you will give up seasons. Which is more important?If you think seasons are important do according to your faith in seasons. You will always find some or other text to justify it. I think Nakshatras are important and I will follow them.
Following naxatra-s only is actually respectable in certain cases ("यत्पुण्य॒न्नक्ष॑त्रम्, तद्बट्कु॑र्वीतोपव्यु॒षम्") - if so, it's probably best to do nirayana properly, not do any drama about correcting for drift, take ayanAMsha offset to be zero. Atleast that way people honor the naxatra-s rather than sheer confusion.
And crores of Nirayana followers also do the same.
namaskAra-s the vishvaguru crores and their ayanArambha reckonings :-)
Venkatesh Murthy
Jul 5, 2020, 4:11:47 AM7/5/20
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Namaste Sri Kaulji
There is a big problem in Sayana method of considering only seasons. If you do that you will celebrate Rama Navami in the correct season Spring but what happens to Nakshatra. You may celebrate it not in Rama's Janma Nakshatra Punarvasu but in some other constellation like Revati. If you are celebrating Rama's birth in Revati it is totally against our tradition.
Same thing will happen for Krishna Janmashtami. You may correctly celebrate it in rainy season. But it may be in Uttara Bhadra instead of Rohini or Mrugasira. If you are celebrating Krishna Janma in such Nakshatras it is totally against our tradition. Why don't you see this?
To protect the seasons you are making a big error in Nakshatras. Why this is acceptable?
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Regards
-Venkatesh
venkat veeraraghavan
Jul 5, 2020, 5:33:40 AM7/5/20
to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्
Dear Shri Vishvas ji-->
You have beautifully brought out the difference between shabdaartha and lakshyaartha in interpreting and extracting the relevant meaning out of the shastras (wrt Apastambha). Well done.
"The gentleman predicted that Trump would loose. Prompltly deleted his FB post as soon as....be better if shrI PVR narasimha rAv were more famous for his excellent role in spreading homa rituals."
Narasimha is someone whom I count on as a friend mainly because I have found the man honest and transparent to a fault. He has given wrong predictions before this and was trolled on SM wrt this, but PVR himself never had issues with accepting his mistakes and moving on.
Wrt the issue you quoted above, I know that PVR has had a deep loathing for Trump based on his personality and his aura. I believe this coloured his outlook and prejudiced him when analysing his chances.
The other issue to consider is that a jyotishi is only as good as the data he is given.
Garbage in Garbage out as in all things.
One cannot draw conclusions on the competence of an astrologer based on failed predictions alone. Even the great Shri KN Rao has had his fair share of bad predictions.
gahana karmano gatiH
As in all things correct diagnosis can be made from wrong data and wrong diagnosis can be made with correct data.
What we need to see is if the person's first principles align with shastra.
Last time I checked PVR was in favour of Shri Kaul's contention.
PVR has frequently and publicly changed his stand on things like ayanamsha and has even publicised his rationale.
I am not exactly sure where Shri Venkatesh Murthy is quoting from and how dated the material is.
One of the things in favour of PVR is his livelihood is not tied to either Jyotisha or Homas so he can afford to pursue both with the intellectual detachment and honesty that such pursuits demand.
Shri Sastry ji: I am unsure what your recommendation is. Can you please explain?
Regards,
Venkat
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----Regards-Venkatesh
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Vishvas /विश्वासः
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----Regards-Venkatesh
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venkat veeraraghavan
Jul 5, 2020, 6:31:25 AM7/5/20
to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्
Dear Shri Venkatesh Murthy,
tithi and nakshatra do not always combine on the same day.
This year it did April 2 was Navami and Punarvasu was rising.
Next year April 21 Sri Rama Navami falls on Pushya nakshatra.
Also the tithi and nakshatras rise and fall every month.
So the root question goes back to how the lunar month is described in shastra.
Regards,
Venkat
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----Regards-Venkatesh
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--Regards-Venkatesh
A K Kaul
Jul 5, 2020, 7:45:42 AM7/5/20
to Bharatiya Vidvat parishad
Dear Shri Vishvas Vasuki,
Jai Shri Ram!
(Contd. from previous mail)
Vedic solar years are seasonal:
The master stroke is in the Shatapatha Brahmana 6/7/1/18 ‘‘ऋतुभिर्हि संवत्सरः शक्नोति स्थातुं"।
It declares quite unequivocally ‘‘A year can subsist only and only by dint of Ritus i.e. seasons!" !
So we may as well rest assured that any year that is not comprising seasons is not a Vedic year at all, whatever else it may be!
Let us see other references!
Shatapatha Brahmana 2/1/3/2 says ‘‘स यत्र उदड.ड.ा वर्तते देवेषु तर्हि भवति...यत्र
दक्षिणावर्तते पितृषु तर्हि भवति‘‘।
When the sun is in Uttarayana it is in Devaloka. When it is in Dakshinayana, it is in the Pitraloka.
Shatapatha Brahmana 14/4/3/23 has also said ‘‘स एष संवत्सरः प्रजापतिः‘‘ The year itself is Prajapati!"
It has repeated the same thing in in 24/16/5/3 ‘‘यो वै संवत्सरः प्रजापतिः‘‘
(There is no doubt that) The year itself is Prajapatih, i.e. lord of the creation. Thus Samvatsar is the form of Ishwara in the form of Time!
So what is the form of such a Prajapati and how does it start, let us see it further from the same Vedic lore:
Prashnopanishat, which is a part of the Atharva-Veda says in 1/9 ‘‘संवत्सरो वै
प्रजापतिस्तस्यायनं दक्षिणं चोत्तरं च‘‘
"Samvatsar itself is Prajapati and it has two Ayanas, the Uttarayana and Dakshinayana i.e. the six months from Winter Solstice to the Summer Solstice and vice-versa!"
Aatharvana Tripadvibhuti Mahanarayan Upanishad says in 3/1
‘‘पंचदश दिनानि पक्षो
भवति। पक्षद्वयं मासो भवति। मास द्वयं ऋतुर्भवति। अयनद्वयं वत्सरो भवति।‘‘
''A fortnight comprises fifteen days. Two fortnights comprise a month. Two months comprise a Ritu and two Ayanas comprise a year"
Maitrayani Brahman Upanishat 6/14 ‘‘सूर्यो योनिः
कालस्य। तस्यैतद्रूपं यन्निमेषादिकालात्संभृतं द्वादशात्मकं
वत्सरमेतस्याग्नेयमर्धं वारुणम्। मघाद्यं श्रविष्ठार्धमाग्नेयं क्रमेणोत्क्रमेण
सार्पाद्यं श्रविष्ठार्धान्तं सौम्यम्। तत्रैकैकमासात्मनो नवांशकं सचारकविधं
सौक्ष्मत्वादेतत्प्रमाणमनेनैव प्रमीयते हि कालः‘‘।
"The sun is the womb of Time, which has the form of nimesha ( a twinkle), a year of twelve months, one half of which is 'fiery' which is known as Uttarayana. The second half which is 'watery' is Dakshinayana. Uttarayana ranges from the start of Magha nakshatra to the mid-Shravishtha whereas Dkashinayana, which starts from the beginning of Ashlesha, ranges upto the middle of Dhanishtha! "
Similarly, as per Aitreya Brahman 1/1
Similarly, as per Aitreya Brahman 1/1
‘‘सप्तदशो वै प्रजापतिः।
द्वादश मासाः पंचर्तवः हेमन्तशिशिरयोः समासेन। तावान् संवत्सरः। संवत्सरः
प्रजापतिः।।''
‘‘ The Prajapati has seventeen limbs in the form of a Samvatsara. (And these are) 12 months, five Ritus (by clubbing Hemanta and Shisira together). No doubt Samvatsarah is Prajapatih."
Aitreya Brahmana 18/2 ‘‘शड् वा ऋतवः ऋतुश एव तत् संवत्सरमाप्नुवन्ति।। ऋतुशः संवत्सरे प्रतितिष्ठन्तो यन्ति। द्वादश वै मासा मासश एव तत् संवत्सरमाप्नुवन्ति मासशः संवत्सरे प्रतितिष्ठन्तो यन्ति।।''
Aitreya Brahmana 18/2 ‘‘शड् वा ऋतवः ऋतुश एव तत् संवत्सरमाप्नुवन्ति।। ऋतुशः संवत्सरे प्रतितिष्ठन्तो यन्ति। द्वादश वै मासा मासश एव तत् संवत्सरमाप्नुवन्ति मासशः संवत्सरे प्रतितिष्ठन्तो यन्ति।।''
‘‘There are six Ritus. A Hota attains the Prajapati i.e. Samvatsara through six seasons. A Samvatsarah has twelve months.....!
Krishna Yajurveda 3/9/22/1 says ‘‘एकंवा एतद् देवानामहर् यत् संवत्सरः" A year (of humans) is a day of gods. (That means it can only be a tropical year!)
Krishna Yajurveda 3/9/22/1 says ‘‘एकंवा एतद् देवानामहर् यत् संवत्सरः" A year (of humans) is a day of gods. (That means it can only be a tropical year!)
In the Brihad-Arnyaka Upanishad 3/6/9 there is an interesting discussion between Vachaknavi Gargi and Yajnyavalkya, where the latter has said
‘‘एतस्य
वा अक्षरस्य प्रशासने गार्ग्यहोरात्राण्यर्द्धमासा मासा ऋतवः संवत्सरा विधृतास्तिष्ठन्ति।"
‘‘ O Gargi, under the rule of (the Parabrahaman) the days, nights, fortnights, months, Ritus and and Samvatsaras can subsist!"
In the same Upanishat 3/9/5 Vidagdha Shakalya asks ‘‘कतम आदित्या इति ‘‘How many suns are there? Yajnyavalkya replies
‘‘द्वादश वै मासाः संवत्सरश्चैत आदित्या एतेहीदं सर्वमाददाना यन्ति ते यदिदं सर्वमाददाना यन्ति तस्मादादित्या इति।‘‘
"There are twelve adityas. The months themselves are Adityas. Since they preside over the months and bestow the results of good or bad deeds (of the people)."
And what are these months? The Krishna Yajurveda 139/40 says
‘‘मधुश्च माधवश्च वासन्तिकावृतू शुक्रश्च शुचिश्च ग्रैष्मावृतू। नभश्च नभस्यश्च वार्षिकावृतू। ईषश्चोर्जश्च शारदावृतू। सहश्च सहस्यश्च हैमन्तिकावृतू। तपश्च तपस्यश्च शैशिरावृतू।।‘‘
"Madhu and Madhava are the months of Vasanta. Shukrah and Shuchih the months of Greeshma; Nabhas and Nabhasya the months of Varsha; Isha and Urja the months of Sharat Ritu; Sahah and Sahasya the months of Hemanta; and Tapas and Tapasya the months of Shishira Ritu!"
From the above incontrovertible proofs, it gets established once for all that the Vedas talk of nothing but a seasonal i.e. tropical year!
It started from the Winter Solstice at the time of the Vedanga Jyotisha.
However, since quite a few Vedic mantras also start from Madhu, Madhava and so on, there is every possibility that the Spring Equinox was the first month of the seasonal year at some point of time in the past.
Nirayana years make doubtful even the moksha (liberation) of its followers:
Chahandogya Upanishad (a part of Samavediya Talwakar Braman) says in 4/15/5
‘‘अथ यदु चैवास्मिंछव्यं कुर्वन्ति यदि च नार्चिषमेवाभिसंभवन्त्यर्चिषोअहरह्न आपूर्यमाणपक्षाद्यान् षडुदङ्ङ्ेति मासांस्तान्मासेभ्यः संवत्सरं संवत्सरादादित्यमादित्याच्चन्द्रमसं चन्द्रमसो विद्युतं तत्पुरुषोऽमानवः स एनान्ब्रह्मगमयत्यिेष देवपथो ब्रह्मपथ एतेन प्रतिपद्यमाना इमं मानवम्नावर्तंत नावर्तन्ते नावर्तन्ते।।‘‘
Gita Press Hindi translation says
अब श्रुति पूर्वोक्त ब्रह्मवेत्ता की गति बतलाती है}- इसके लिए शव कर्म करें अथवा न करें, वह अर्चिराभिमानी देवता को ही प्राप्त होता है | फिर अर्चिराभिमानी देवता से दिवसाभिमानी देवता को, दिवसाभिमानी से शुक्लपक्षाभिमानी देवता को और शुक्लपक्षाभिमानी देवता से उत्तरायण के छः मासों को प्राप्त होता है। मासों से संवत्सर को संवत्सर से आद्त्यको आदित्य से चन्द्रमाको और चन्द्रमा से विद्युत् को प्राप्त होता है | वहां से अमानव पुरुष इन्हें ब्रह्म को प्राप्त करा देता है। यह देवमार्ग-ब्रह्ममार्ग है। इससे जाने वाले पुरुष इस मानव मण्डल में नहीं लौटते; नहीं लौटते।।
Thus we have to realize as to what type of day, fortnight, month, Uttarayana and Samvatsarah etc. we must use, whether niraadhaar niraayana like Lahiri or Chitra etc., or the real Vedic i.e. seasonal, not only for the present life/birth on this planet but for hereafter---i.e. life after life!
I recall the admonishment of Shri Vasishtha Muni in his immortal Yogavasishtha
इहैव नरक व्याधेश्चिकित्सां न करोति यः | गत्वा निरौषधं स्थानं स रुज: किं करिष्यति ||
Nirayana is really niraadhaar!
To sum up, the new solar year that we are supposed to celebrate around April 14/15 every year is not related to any of the four cardinal points viz. the two equinoxes and two solstices. Nor is it related to any season. All it is related to is the "almighty" Lahiri Ayanamsha!
So it is anything but Vedic!
Nor is it Pauranic!
Nor is it Siddhantic!
We cannot call it Meshadi either in the true sense of the word since all our Puranas and siddhantas talk of nothing but a seasonal Mesha -Rashi, which starts on the day of Vernal Equinox!
As such, we must switch over to the real Vedic calendar viz. the seasonal year without any further delay, as otherwise we will continue to wallow in the mud of "almighty" Lahiri Rashichakra and his Meshadi, Vaishakhadi etc. etc.
We shall see in the next mail as to how the Bhagvadgita apart from all the Puranas and siddhantas and the Itihasas also talk about a seasonal year/calendar.
(To be contd.)
With regards and Jai Shri Ram!
A K Kaul
PS: This mail had become quite long. So some of the interim mails have been deleted.
AKK
Nityanand Misra
Jul 5, 2020, 10:35:02 AM7/5/20
to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्
On Saturday, 4 July 2020 01:04:05 UTC+5:30, Venkatesh Murthy wrote:
NamasteThe most famous astrologer today is with no doubt Sri PVR Narasimha Rao. He has predicted correctly major events.
I am not qualified enough to comment on Jyotisha matters, but famous does not mean correct. Arguments are to be evaluated on their merit and not on the fame of the person making the arguments.
विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)
Jul 5, 2020, 11:11:37 AM7/5/20
to bhAratIya-vidvat-pariShad भारतीय-विद्वत्परिषद्
On Sun, Jul 5, 2020 at 1:41 PM Venkatesh Murthy <vmur...@gmail.com> wrote:
Namaste Sri KauljiThere is a big problem in Sayana method of considering only seasons. If you do that you will celebrate Rama Navami in the correct season Spring but what happens to Nakshatra. You may celebrate it not in Rama's Janma Nakshatra Punarvasu but in some other constellation like Revati. If you are celebrating Rama's birth in Revati it is totally against our tradition.Same thing will happen for Krishna Janmashtami. You may correctly celebrate it in rainy season. But it may be in Uttara Bhadra instead of Rohini or Mrugasira. If you are celebrating Krishna Janma in such Nakshatras it is totally against our tradition. Why don't you see this?
Superficial followers of this reasoning should consider the following:
- Do they see the moon (representing the gem of yadu branch of chandravamsha) rise at midnight (which happens naturally during aShTamI) at rohiNI (ie Aldebran aka alpha Tauri, appropriately in the bovine constellation)?
- Do they look at the sky on rAmanavamI and observe the moon at punarvasU (never mind further inferences about the diametrically opposite dhanur rAshi, shravaNa trio along the celestial river near dhaniShThA etc..)?
- Do they celebrate the sacred day of kArttikeya when the ShaShTI moon is with the kRttikA-s (Pleiades), roughly opposite in the naxatra-chakra to the place of his brother vishAkha, not far from where semen of his father fell into the celestial river and grew along the "sharavaNa" (all identifiable in the night sky)?
If the answer is no, they should ask themselves who they're kidding with their naxatra identifications.
विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)
Jul 5, 2020, 11:42:17 AM7/5/20
to bhAratIya-vidvat-pariShad भारतीय-विद्वत्परिषद्
On Sun, Jul 5, 2020 at 5:15 PM A K Kaul <jyot...@gmail.com> wrote:
Nirayana years make doubtful even the moksha (liberation) of its followers:
So much masaala :-) Your quote makes no such suggestion.
To sum up, the new solar year that we are supposed to celebrate around April 14/15 every year is not related to any of the four cardinal points viz. the two equinoxes and two solstices. Nor is it related to any season. All it is related to is the "almighty" Lahiri Ayanamsha!So it is anything but Vedic!Nor is it Pauranic!Nor is it Siddhantic!
Fine, but you still haven't shown why it is not siderial.
विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)
Jul 5, 2020, 11:52:34 AM7/5/20
to bhAratIya-vidvat-pariShad भारतीय-विद्वत्परिषद्
- Do they celebrate the sacred day of kArttikeya when the ShaShTI moon is with the kRttikA-s (Pleiades), roughly opposite in the naxatra-chakra to the place of his brother vishAkha, not far from where semen of his father fell into the celestial river and grew along the "sharavaNa" (all identifiable in the night sky)?
On hindsight, the last one above was probably a misexpectation - please ignore.
A K Kaul
Jul 5, 2020, 12:38:59 PM7/5/20
to Bharatiya Vidvat parishad
Dear Shri Vishvas Vasuki,
Jai Shri Ram!
<Nirayana years make doubtful even the moksha (liberation) of its followers:
So much masaala :-) Your quote makes no such suggestion.>
It appears you have missed the quote
Chahandogya Upanishad (a part of Samavediya Talwakar Braman) says in 4/15/5
‘‘अथ यदु चैवास्मिंछव्यं कुर्वन्ति यदि च नार्चिषमेवाभिसंभवन्त्यर्चिषोअहरह्न आपूर्यमाणपक्षाद्यान् षडुदङ्ङ्ेति मासांस्तान्मासेभ्यः संवत्सरं संवत्सरादादित्यमादित्याच्चन्द्रमसं चन्द्रमसो विद्युतं तत्पुरुषोऽमानवः स एनान्ब्रह्मगमयत्यिेष देवपथो ब्रह्मपथ एतेन प्रतिपद्यमाना इमं मानवम्नावर्तंत नावर्तन्ते नावर्तन्ते।।‘‘
I had given a Hindi tranlation of the same also so that it can be understood conveniently!
I am also sure you have read the Bhagvadgita which states in 8/24
अग्निर्ज्योतिरहः शुक्लः षण्मासाः उत्तरायणम | तत्र प्रयाता गछन्ति ब्रह्म ब्रह्मविदो जनाः ||
Naturally, the six months of Uttarayana that Bhagwan Krishna is talking about cannot take place in Lahiri or Pushya-Pakshya etc. solar years or even Rashichakras!
You must also have heard about Bishma waiting for Uttarayana for shedding off his mortal coil, as he did not want to be reborn.
Since there was no Lahiri Ayanamsha or "Pushya-Pakshjya" etc. Ayanamsha then, naturally, Bhishma was waiting for the real Uttarayana, that can take place in only a seasonal i.e. tropical year!
<To sum up, the new solar year that we are supposed to celebrate around April 14/15 every year is not related to any of the four cardinal points viz. the two equinoxes and two solstices. Nor is it related to any season. All it is related to is the "almighty" Lahiri Ayanamsha!
So it is anything but Vedic!Nor is it Pauranic!Nor is it Siddhantic!
Fine, but you still haven't shown why it is not sideria>
1. Would you be kind enough to quote even as single mantra from the Vedic lore, a single shloka from any of the Puranas or a single shloka from any siddhanta which has advised us to celebrate a "Mesha Samkranti" when the days and nights or not equal.
(Since it is claimed that the Vedic astronomy is sidereal, and since there are no Mesha etc. Rashis in the Vedas, what alternative name would you give to such a 'Mesha Samkranti'?)
2. What do you mean by "sidereal" and how do you prove that the "Lahiri" Mesha Samkranti of April 14/15, 2021 will be sidereal?. Pushya-Paksha Mesha Samkranti, Ramana Mesha Samkranti, Surya Siddhanta Mesha Samkranti, Vakya-Panchanga etc. Mesha Samkrantis of 2021 will not be at one and the same time as "Lahiri" Mesha Samkranti. Will all those Mesha Samkrantis also be sidereal? If so, how? If not why and how?
3. If only "Lahiri" Mesha Samkranti is going to be sidereal according to you, what about all the other
Mesha Samkrantis?
With regards and Jai Shri Ram!
A K Kaul
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विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)
Jul 5, 2020, 9:49:05 PM7/5/20
to bhAratIya-vidvat-pariShad भारतीय-विद्वत्परिषद्
On Sun, Jul 5, 2020 at 10:09 PM A K Kaul <jyot...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Shri Vishvas Vasuki,Jai Shri Ram!<Nirayana years make doubtful even the moksha (liberation) of its followers:So much masaala :-) Your quote makes no such suggestion.>It appears you have missed the quote
Of course, I read your quote (as should have been clear from my response). Where does it say or even suggest that a person following nirayana calendar for his daily life will not get moxa? It does not. Whatever his calendrical belief, the brahmavettA gets this gati.
<To sum up, the new solar year that we are supposed to celebrate around April 14/15 every year is not related to any of the four cardinal points viz. the two equinoxes and two solstices. Nor is it related to any season. All it is related to is the "almighty" Lahiri Ayanamsha!So it is anything but Vedic!Nor is it Pauranic!Nor is it Siddhantic!Fine, but you still haven't shown why it is not sideria>
2. What do you mean by "sidereal" and how do you prove that the "Lahiri" Mesha Samkranti of April 14/15, 2021 will be sidereal?. Pushya-Paksha Mesha Samkranti, Ramana Mesha Samkranti, Surya Siddhanta Mesha Samkranti, Vakya-Panchanga etc. Mesha Samkrantis of 2021 will not be at one and the same time as "Lahiri" Mesha Samkranti. Will all those Mesha Samkrantis also be sidereal? If so, how? If not why and how?
Siderial means a star-based division of the ecliptic circle. (In contrast, tropical means division with reference to the equinoctial colure.) Whatever the ayanAMsha offset, they're all siderial. What was your definition when you claimed that rAShTriya panchanga was not siderial??
"1. Would you be kind enough to quote even as single mantra from the Vedic lore, a single shloka from any of the Puranas or a single shloka from any siddhanta which has advised us to celebrate a "Mesha Samkranti" when the days and nights or not equal." - This is not relevant to my question at all; but ALL 12 sankrAnti-s are to be celebrated according to shAstra-s (you should dig up references from a work such as nirNaya sindhu yourself.) It's just that this sankrAnti is not same as ayanArambha.
--With regards and Jai Shri Ram!A K KaulOn Sun, Jul 5, 2020 at 9:12 PM विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki) <vishvas...@gmail.com> wrote:--On Sun, Jul 5, 2020 at 5:15 PM A K Kaul <jyot...@gmail.com> wrote:Nirayana years make doubtful even the moksha (liberation) of its followers:So much masaala :-) Your quote makes no such suggestion.Nirayana is really niraadhaar!To sum up, the new solar year that we are supposed to celebrate around April 14/15 every year is not related to any of the four cardinal points viz. the two equinoxes and two solstices. Nor is it related to any season. All it is related to is the "almighty" Lahiri Ayanamsha!So it is anything but Vedic!Nor is it Pauranic!Nor is it Siddhantic!Fine, but you still haven't shown why it is not siderial.
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Venkatesh Murthy
Jul 6, 2020, 12:40:35 AM7/6/20
to bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Namaste Sri Kaulji
On Sun, Jul 5, 2020 at 11:53 PM A K Kaul <jyot...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Shri Venkatesh Murthy,Jai Shri Ram!
<But his logic is correct. If Nakshatras are totally neglected like Sri Kaul is saying there will be no basis for astrology predictions at all.>
Who told you that nakshatras have been neglected!
You cannot deny this fact. If you go with Tropical Sayana Calendar there will be a gap between Tropical and Sidereal calendars. This gap will become bigger and bigger as time passes. This will create a bigger and bigger difference in Nakshatras of festivals. Why? Because of Precession. Nakshatras are sidereal. Not Tropical. They cannot change with Seasons.
Result will be you can enjoy festivals in the correct season but the Nakshatras will be different from our ancient Rishis recommendations.
You can worship Rama and Krishna and other gods in the right season but the blessings of Nakshatras will not be on you.
This is against the spirit of Shastra and actually it is more like Western System. The Western people do not have any respect for Nakshatras.
No! On the other hand nakshatras have been taken into account more scientifically than they are in the nirayana!Let us take the case of today i.e. July 5, 2020!As per the "Reformed Hindu Calendar" of Shri T V Sivaraman, Purnima ended at 10-16 (am) whereas Purva-Ashadha nakshatra ended at 8-33 (am) when Uttarashadh started. Uttarashadha ended at 13-45 i.e. 1-45 pm when Abhijit nakshatra started which will end at 19-25 (7-25 pm) on July 6, 2020.As per the attachment "Stars-July-5-2020" the longitude of Purvashadha star is 274° 52' 3" and that was the longitude of the Moon at 8-33 am IST. Similarly, the longitude of the Uttarashada star for today is 282° 40' 19''. That was the longitude of the moon at 1-45 pm today. Similarly, the longitude of Abhijit star is 285° 36' 15''.That will be the longitude of the Moon at 7-25 pm tomorrow, i.e. July 6, 2020.
<Why he neglects Nakshatras and only takes seasons I dont understand. Nakshatras are important. In our Vedas there is great importance given to Nakshatras.>
As is evident, nakshatras have not been neglected.
< Nakshatras are important. In our Vedas there is great importance given to Nakshatras>
Yes, nakshatras are very important in the Vedic lore and they have been literally worshipped.Atharva Veda Samhita, 19.7.1 saysचित्राणि साकं दिवि रोचनानि सरीसृपानि भुवने जवानि | अष्टाविंशं सुमतिमिछमासो अहानि गीर्भिः सपर्यामि नाकं|And the one and only S B Dikshit has translated it as ''I being desirous of welfare, worship the heaven with speeches because twenty-eight clusters of stars, like wonderful illuminating lights arranged in the form of nimble serpents, shine in the sky"It is thus just unimaginable that the Vedas are talking of 27 imaginary equal divisions of Lahiri or Ramana or Pushya Pakshya nakshatras, where nobody knows as to which division starts from where (because of Ayanamsha confusion) and which has nothing to do with the''wonderful illuminating lights arranged in the form of nimble serpents"!Thus obviously, our Rishis were talking about not nirayana equal nakshatra divisions but the real stars shining in the skies!Then again, when the scholars try to find the dates of "Saturn tormenting Rohini" etc. in the Mahabharata, they do not look for an imaginary equal division of Rohini but the actual "Rohini" star for conjunction etc. with Saturn!We will, therefore, have to discard our infatuation with 27 equal nirayana nakshatra divisions and switch over to the real "stars" i.e nakshatras as advised by the Vedas!Even where twenty seven nakshatras have been ''adored" in the Vedic lore, they are not just imaginary divisions but real "vibrating" star groups!We have only to ponder deeply on all these anomalies that we have created ourselves unknowingly and must now ameliorate the situation at the earliest!
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Regards
-Venkatesh
Venkatesh Murthy
Jul 6, 2020, 1:10:33 AM7/6/20
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Namaste
On Sun, Jul 5, 2020 at 8:41 PM विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki) <vishvas...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Jul 5, 2020 at 1:41 PM Venkatesh Murthy <vmur...@gmail.com> wrote:Namaste Sri KauljiThere is a big problem in Sayana method of considering only seasons. If you do that you will celebrate Rama Navami in the correct season Spring but what happens to Nakshatra. You may celebrate it not in Rama's Janma Nakshatra Punarvasu but in some other constellation like Revati. If you are celebrating Rama's birth in Revati it is totally against our tradition.Same thing will happen for Krishna Janmashtami. You may correctly celebrate it in rainy season. But it may be in Uttara Bhadra instead of Rohini or Mrugasira. If you are celebrating Krishna Janma in such Nakshatras it is totally against our tradition. Why don't you see this?Superficial followers of this reasoning should consider the following:- Do they see the moon (representing the gem of yadu branch of chandravamsha) rise at midnight (which happens naturally during aShTamI) at rohiNI (ie Aldebran aka alpha Tauri, appropriately in the bovine constellation)?
Do you see the Sun and then do Sandhya Vandana? No. As a matter of fact there is a Sastra prohibition to see the rising and setting Sun. नेक्षेतोद्यन्तमादित्यं नच नग्नां परस्त्रियम्
The Nakshatras are much brighter than our Sun according to modern Science. They are very powerful and we should not stop respecting them just because they are far away.
- Do they look at the sky on rAmanavamI and observe the moon at punarvasU (never mind further inferences about the diametrically opposite dhanur rAshi, shravaNa trio along the celestial river near dhaniShThA etc..)?
The Moon in Punarvasu is not visible in the sky in day time at Rama Navami. Why we should we look at the Moon? Not necessary. The Moon is internally our Mind. We must focus our Mind on
- Do they celebrate the sacred day of kArttikeya when the ShaShTI moon is with the kRttikA-s (Pleiades), roughly opposite in the naxatra-chakra to the place of his brother vishAkha, not far from where semen of his father fell into the celestial river and grew along the "sharavaNa" (all identifiable in the night sky)?If the answer is no, they should ask themselves who they're kidding with their naxatra identifications.
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Regards
-Venkatesh
विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)
Jul 6, 2020, 1:34:27 AM7/6/20
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On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 10:40 AM Venkatesh Murthy <vmur...@gmail.com> wrote:
NamasteOn Sun, Jul 5, 2020 at 8:41 PM विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki) <vishvas...@gmail.com> wrote:
- Do they see the moon (representing the gem of yadu branch of chandravamsha) rise at midnight (which happens naturally during aShTamI) at rohiNI (ie Aldebran aka alpha Tauri, appropriately in the bovine constellation)?Do you see the Sun and then do Sandhya Vandana? No. As a matter of fact there is a Sastra prohibition to see the rising and setting Sun. नेक्षेतोद्यन्तमादित्यं नच नग्नां परस्त्रियम्The Nakshatras are much brighter than our Sun according to modern Science. They are very powerful and we should not stop respecting them just because they are far away.- Do they look at the sky on rAmanavamI and observe the moon at punarvasU (never mind further inferences about the diametrically opposite dhanur rAshi, shravaNa trio along the celestial river near dhaniShThA etc..)?The Moon in Punarvasu is not visible in the sky in day time at Rama Navami. Why we should we look at the Moon? Not necessary. The Moon is internally our Mind. We must focus our Mind on
Ok, I give up. Can't go on countering such childishness. Whether or not you actually go and see, there is no denying the fact that during your so called nakShatra-based observation, the moon is nowhere near Castor and Pollox. As someone told me offline, "I think his basics are wrong no need to confuse him further. ;-) ... He probably does not consult panchangas and is free debating in a vacuum."
venkat veeraraghavan
Jul 6, 2020, 2:41:12 AM7/6/20
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Sri Venkatesh Murthy ji
You can solve your problem and correct your misreadings by actually checking in a panchanga the monthly rise and fall of nakshatras along with tithis in the course of the month.
This will help you realise that your premises are all wrong.
It will also stop the cornucopia of verbiage on this thread and give peace to all.
Regards
V
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A K Kaul
Jul 6, 2020, 5:06:17 AM7/6/20
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Dear Shri Venkatesh Murthy,
Jia Shri Ram!
<
You can worship Rama and Krishna and other gods in the right season but the blessings of Nakshatras will not be on you. >
The Valmiki Ramayana 1/15/29 and 7/99/9 (Gita Press edition) tell us that Bhagwan Ram Ruled for 11000 years!
And quite a few scholars claim that the Mahabharata war took place in 3101/3102 BCE.
That means Bhagwan Ram was around in at least 14000 BCE.
I do not know as to how anybody could have calculated the planetary position together with the tithi nakshatra etc. of Bhagwan Ram and Bharata etc., as given in the Valmiki Ramayana 2/18 in that distant past!
Similarly, though Dr. B V Raman calculated a horoscope of Bhagwan Krishna for July 19, 3228 BCE since there were no computers around in 1950s, Dr. Raman had to get it prepared by Cyril Fagan.
There are absolutely no references to any planetary positions of any of the Pandavas or Kauravas, least of all Bhagwan Krishna, in any of the Puranas or the Mahabharata, or Harivamsha. I do not know how anybody could have calculated a horoscope---that too nirayana--- then, especially since we do not find Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis whether Sayana or Nirayana in the Mahabharata at all and the Rashis that we find in the Puranas including the Srimad Bhagavata or Vishnu or Vamana or Shiva or Vishnu-dharmottara etc.etc. are all so called Sayana!
The seasonal months like Shravana/Bhadra Krishna Ashtami and (nirayana) Rohini nakshatra could not have coincided even then in 3228 BCE and that is why Dr. Raman had to resort to a nirayana Rashichakra that too with his own Ayanamsha!
Similarly, when the planets like Mangal, Shani etc. were not around in India in 1500 BCE at the time of the Vedanga Jyotisha, it is virtually impossible that a horoscope of Bhagwan Ram could really have been prepared in at least 14000 BCE!
Thus IMHO seasonal Chaitra Shukla Navmi should be taken as Shri Rama Navmi without hankering for any particular nakshatra!
Similarly, seasonal Shravana (mukhya-mana) Krishna Ashtami whether or not coupled with Rohini should be taken as Shri Krishna Janmashthami!
With regards and Jai Shri Ram!
A K Kaul
venkat veeraraghavan
Jul 6, 2020, 6:09:54 AM7/6/20
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Dear Shri Kaul ji:
ततो यज्ञे समाप्ते तु ऋतूनां षट् समत्ययुः |
ततश्च द्वादशे मासे चैत्रे नावमिके तिथौ || १-१८-८
नक्षत्रेऽदितिदैवत्ये स्वोच्चसंस्थेषु पंचसु |
ग्रहेषु कर्कटे लग्ने वाक्पताविंदुना सह || १-१८-९
प्रोद्यमाने जगन्नाथं सर्वलोकनमस्कृतम् |
कौसल्याजनयद्रामं सर्वलक्षणसंयुतम् || १-१८-१०
विष्णोरर्धं महाभागं पुत्रमैक्ष्वाकुनंदनम् |
लोहिताक्षं महाबाहुं रक्तौष्ठं दुंदुभिस्वनम् || १-१८-११
ततश्च द्वादशे मासे चैत्रे नावमिके तिथौ || १-१८-८
नक्षत्रेऽदितिदैवत्ये स्वोच्चसंस्थेषु पंचसु |
ग्रहेषु कर्कटे लग्ने वाक्पताविंदुना सह || १-१८-९
प्रोद्यमाने जगन्नाथं सर्वलोकनमस्कृतम् |
कौसल्याजनयद्रामं सर्वलक्षणसंयुतम् || १-१८-१०
विष्णोरर्धं महाभागं पुत्रमैक्ष्वाकुनंदनम् |
लोहिताक्षं महाबाहुं रक्तौष्ठं दुंदुभिस्वनम् || १-१८-११
(Source-Valmiki Ramayan)
What Valmiki said is Satya.
And please understand Rama lived in Tretha Yuga and the Yuga calculations throw the date much much before the date you have quoted.
As for how did they calculate before computers existed.
By observation of the heavens ofcourse.
In this case Valmiki wrote through Yoga-siddhi.
There are proofs of yoga siddhi even now in this realm where Shri S.G. Karve (Of Mumbai) and his children do time rectification of horoscopes just based on seeing the person.
I am surprised that you should say this of all people.
Regards,
Venkat
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A K Kaul
Jul 6, 2020, 12:46:21 PM7/6/20
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Dear Shri Venkat Veeraraghavanji,
Jai Shri Ram!
<
And please understand Rama lived in Tretha Yuga and the Yuga calculations throw the date much much before the date you have quoted.>
As per Aryabhata, Tretayuga ended 2020+3101 (years of Kaliyuga) + 1080000 years of Dwapara Yuga i.e. 1085121 years back.
According to the Surya Siddhanta, Tretayuga ended 2020+3101 (years of Kaliyuga) + 864000 years of Dwaparayuga i.e. 869121 years back.
But the earliest date
of "Rama Ravana Yuddha" claimed by present scholars is 12209 BCE as per Nilesh Oak, 7323 BCE as year of Incarnation as per late Dr. P V Vartak and January 14, 5114 BCE as per late Pushkar Bhatnagar!
In any case, your view that Bhagwan Ram had incarnated either about 1085000 or about 869000 years back is in agreement with the Pauranic lore that the yugas have very long duration. My grandfather, my father and even I myself had a similar view
till a few decades back
.
The Valmiki Ramayana that we have around these days is supposed to have been "compiled" by the same Maharshi Valmiki who was a contemporary of Bhagwan Ram!
It is just not possible that it could have been written so many years back since the homo sapiens have been around for not more than 200000 years as per
If it is just a matter of faith, I have nothing to say and I just respect your views.
With regards and Jai Shri Ram!
A K Kaul
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विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)
Jul 6, 2020, 9:12:53 PM7/6/20
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On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 2:36 PM A K Kaul <jyot...@gmail.com> wrote:
Similarly, when the planets like Mangal, Shani etc. were not around in India in 1500 BCE at the time of the Vedanga Jyotisha, it is virtually impossible that a horoscope of Bhagwan Ram could really have been prepared in at least 14000 BCE!
The thought that our ancestors who observed the sky so closely were not aware of such easily visible planets as mars and Saturn is frankly ridiculous. Please read and consider https://manasataramgini.wordpress.com/2010/02/18/the-oldest-surviving-planetary-ritual-of-the-hindus/
Venkatesh Murthy
Jul 7, 2020, 12:49:20 AM7/7/20
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Namaste Sri Venkat Veeraraghavan and Sri Kaulji
On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 12:11 PM venkat veeraraghavan <vvenk...@gmail.com> wrote:
Sri Venkatesh Murthy jiYou can solve your problem and correct your misreadings by actually checking in a panchanga the monthly rise and fall of nakshatras along with tithis in the course of the month.This will help you realise that your premises are all wrong.It will also stop the cornucopia of verbiage on this thread and give peace to all.
I am not confused but you are. I can prove it below.
I hope you know the following details.
Full moon day of Chaitra month will be at or close to Chitta Nakshatra
Full moon day of Vaishakha month will be at or close to Visakha Nakshatra
and so on.... full moon day of Magha month will be at or close to Magha Nakshatra
Full moon day of Phalguna will be at or close to Phalguni Nakshatras.
You can now open the Panchanga sent by Sri Kaul attached claiming to be the correct Tropical Panchanga correct in seasons.
What do you see there?
Magha Purnima on 2020 January 10 with Ardra Nakshatra. This is not close to Magha Nakshatra.
Holika Dahan Phalguna Purnima on 2020 February 8 with Punarvasu Nakshatra. This is not close to Uttara Phalguni Nakshatra.
Chaitra Purnima on 2020 March 9 with Magha Nakshatra. This is not close to Chitta Nakshatra. Big gap.
Should I go on or you see the problem? One more example.
Vaishakha Purnima on 2020 April 7 with Uttara Phalguni Nakshatra. This is not close to Vishakha Nakshatra.
This gap in Nakshatras will not be just for Purnima but for all festivals.
Not only this but the gap will become bigger and bigger with time. This is the big problem.
That is why I said if you go for correct seasons you will give up Nakshatras and if you go for correct Nakshatras you will give up seasons.
I say give up seasons. Why? Because Nakshatras are more important and powerful in our tradition of ancient Rishis.
Therefore Nirayana is victorious over Sayana calendar.
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Regards
-Venkatesh
विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)
Jul 7, 2020, 1:35:05 AM7/7/20
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On Tue, Jul 7, 2020 at 10:19 AM Venkatesh Murthy <vmur...@gmail.com> wrote:
Namaste Sri Venkat Veeraraghavan and Sri KauljiOn Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 12:11 PM venkat veeraraghavan <vvenk...@gmail.com> wrote:Sri Venkatesh Murthy jiYou can solve your problem and correct your misreadings by actually checking in a panchanga the monthly rise and fall of nakshatras along with tithis in the course of the month.This will help you realise that your premises are all wrong.It will also stop the cornucopia of verbiage on this thread and give peace to all.I am not confused but you are. I can prove it below.I hope you know the following details.Full moon day of Chaitra month will be at or close to Chitta Nakshatra
This is a very significant observation. Whenever the full moon is at chitrA, it necessarily follows that the navamI moon would have been near punarvasU. Hence, it follows that it was a misunderstanding on my part to think that festivals are being celebrated based on naxatra-s with an offset ayanAMsha (thence falsifying the conclusion that current festival observation does not entail star cluster primacy). This misunderstanding was due to the thought that "Lahiri ayanAMsha" entailed shifting the naxatra-s from the corresponding star clusters. I will study and try to understand the Calendar reform committee report better - https://archive.org/details/calendar_reform_comittee_report .
The above should have been Venkatesh Murthy's response in the first place, rather than ("I don't need to go and see the stars, moon is in my mind etc.."). Any, thanks for pointing out my error (even if it was unintentional).
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A K Kaul
Jul 7, 2020, 6:37:00 AM7/7/20
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Dear Shri Venkatesh Murthy,
Jai Shri Ram!
Many thanks indeed for your mail!
<Full moon day of Chaitra month will be at or close to Chitta Nakshatra
Full moon day of Vaishakha month will be at or close to Visakha Nakshatra
and so on.... full moon day of Magha month will be at or close to Magha Nakshatra
Full moon day of Phalguna will be at or close to Phalguni Nakshatras.
On a lighter vein, there is a saying in Hindi "रात भर लैला मजनून की कहानी सुनायी तो सुबह् पूछते हो कि लैला मजनून की क्या लगती थी"
There has been a very constructive discussion in this very august forum on the following address about Madhu being equal to Chaitra and so on in all the Vedas and the Vedangas!
There is absolutely no reference in any of the Vedas or the Vedangas that the full moon has to be conjunct Lahiri or Ramana or some other imaginary Chitradivision for the lunar month to be named as Chaitra and so on!
Attachments from the Samaveda, Shatapatha Brahmana, Taittiriya Samhita and other Vedic literature have been appended in that discussion as proofs that even Acharya Sayana treated Madhu=Chaitra without hankering for Chitra nakshatra full moon!
Right from the Surya Siddhanta to Siddhanta Shiromani, all the siddhantas have advised to start a lunar new year with Madhu---which can only be seasonal---and it is the same Madhu that has been translated as Chaitra whether by Ranganatha of 16th century or by the famous scholar of Varanasi, Pandit Sudhakar Dwivedi of early twentieth century!
Similarly, Bhaskaracharya of 12 century also advised to start the lunar new year from seasonal Madhu!
Then again, Vishnu-dharmottara-Purana has been very categorical that Madhu=Chaitra and so on.
Proofs in original are attached in the form of jpeg or pdf.
Then again, I have given references from all the Vedas and Puranas and siddhantas that the Vedic, Pauranic and siddhantic year is seasonal i.e. tropical!
Still you want Chitra-nakshatra full moon for Chaitra which no Veda or Purana or Siddhanta or commentator has advised!
<I say give up seasons. Why? Because Nakshatras are more important and powerful in our tradition of ancient Rishis.
Therefore Nirayana is victorious over Sayana calendar. >
I have never asked that nakshatras should be neglected! On the other hand, what I am asking is that they should be treated with the same reverence as in the Vedic lore, without tying and subsuming them to any imaginary Lahiri or some other Rashichakra, as that was never the case with the Vedas and the Vedangas!
The attachments nakshatra-00 to nakshatra-5 from the Atharva Veda with the commentary of the scholar-extraordinary viz. Acharya Sayana speaks volumes as to how the nakshatras were "vibrating living deities" in the Vedas and not the imaginry 27 Lahiri or Ramana etc. divisions, as the nirayana jyotishis like you would like us to believe!
Respected Venktesh Murthyji, I really fail to understand as to how I can convince people like you that nirayana is really niraadhar if they do not want to be convinced in spite of all the astronomical and scriptural proofs!
There is a saying you can take the horse to river, but you cannot make it drink water!
I rest my case, respected Venkatesh Murthyji!
With regards and Jai Shri Ram!
A K Kaul
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venkat veeraraghavan
Jul 7, 2020, 7:16:30 AM7/7/20
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Dear Sri V Murthy:
I am quoting you:
Quote
There is a big problem in Sayana method of considering only seasons. If you do that you will celebrate Rama Navami in the correct season Spring but what happens to Nakshatra. You may celebrate it not in Rama's Janma Nakshatra Punarvasu but in some other constellation like Revati. If you are celebrating Rama's birth in Revati it is totally against our tradition.
Same thing will happen for Krishna Janmashtami. You may correctly celebrate it in rainy season. But it may be in Uttara Bhadra instead of Rohini or Mrugasira. If you are celebrating Krishna Janma in such Nakshatras it is totally against our tradition.
UNQUOTE
Do the following and get back if you care:
2. Set the place where you stay and trawl the calendar for Janmastami and Ramanavami dates
3. Check the nakshatra on the given dates
4. Go through every day of the month and check the rise and fall of tithi and nakshatra
You will find that very rarely does tithi and relevant nakshatra combine on the same day.
This is why there is a difference in Janmashtami "celebration" dates in Tamilnadu, where the smarthas celebrate the Ashtami tithi and the Sri Vaishnavas the date of Rohini rising.
Plain observation will prove to you the above.
There is no need for anything more complicated than that.
Regards,
Venkat
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विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)
Jul 7, 2020, 8:56:01 AM7/7/20
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On Tue, Jul 7, 2020 at 4:07 PM A K Kaul <jyot...@gmail.com> wrote:
Still you want Chitra-nakshatra full moon for Chaitra which no Veda or Purana or Siddhanta or commentator has advised!
Linguistically, that's what the term chaitra means - please see pANini's sUtra with commentaries: https://ashtadhyayi.com/sutraani/sk1223
Generally agree with you as did the calendar committee members, but this system at least (mostly) ensures that many festivals can be celebrated with correct asterism-moon conjunction. So, it has some limited utility.
Venkatesh Murthy
Jul 7, 2020, 11:05:32 AM7/7/20
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Namaste Sri Kaulji
Thank you for the references. It is not just the problem of Chaitra Purnima or Vaishakha Purnima or other Purnimas. Almost all important festivals have a Nakshatra and we have to celebrate them when the Nakshatra is close to the celebration day. Rama Navami is with Punarvasu but actually it may be with Ardra Nakshatra or neighbouring Nakshatra. But we cannot celebrate it with a far away Nakshatra like Revati or Ashwini. You have tried to argue against this saying there is no Rama Janma details available in our texts. But Sri Vishwas has given you references.
If you follow the Tropical Panchanga a time will come when you will celebrate Rama Navami on far away Nakshatras like Revati or Purva Bhadra. Similarly we will celebrate other festivals in far away Nakshatras from the prescribed Nakshatras. This is a wrong way of celebration.
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Regards
-Venkatesh
Venkatesh Murthy
Jul 7, 2020, 11:15:00 AM7/7/20
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Namaste Sri Venkat Veeraraghavan
I already know what you have written. I am not saying exact Nakshatra and Tithi has to match in festivals. But the difference between the Nakshatra and Tithi days will be one day mostly. We Smartas will have the Janmashtami on Ashtami and Sri Vaishnavas may have the same on next day with Rohini Nakshatra.
But the difference will not be like 3 or 4 or 5 days or more.
If you follow Sri Kaul's Panchanga you will get a bigger difference between Tithi and Nakshatra. That is not the only problem. The difference will become bigger and bigger with passing years and decades. To this Sri Kaul is arguing Nakshatra is not at all important for festivals. Why? Because he wants to ignore this problem. This is not correct.
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--
Regards
-Venkatesh
A K Kaul
Jul 7, 2020, 11:44:54 AM7/7/20
to Bharatiya Vidvat parishad
Shri Vishvas Vasukiji,
Jai Shri Ram!
<Linguistically, that's what the term chaitra means - please see pANini's sUtra with commentaries: https://ashtadhyayi.com/sutraani/sk1223>
Panini is supposed to have been around in 5th century BCE. There were no Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis, whether Sayana or nirayana, in India then!
Since 27 nakshatra divisions can be found in the Vedanga Jyotisha, without any alignment to any Rashis, starting from Krittika nakshatra division, there is every possibility that a similar Full Moon connection was found with the relevant nakshatra division vis-a-vis the lunar month!
Then again, we cannot say that Acharya Sayana as late as 14th century had not seen Panini's statements, but even then he equated seasonal lunar Madhu with lunar Chaitra!!
This fact cannot be overlooked!
<Generally agree with you as did the calendar committee members, but this system at least (mostly) ensures that many festivals can be celebrated with correct asterism-moon conjunction. So, it has some limited utility>
Even if for the sake of argument, we presume that Ashvini, Bharni etc. nakshatras were subservient to Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis, we have then to correlate them with seasonal/Sayana Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis, as has been done by the most respected Purana of the Vaishnavas and Advaitins viz. the Bhagavata and Vamana and Vishnu Purna etc. as will be clear from the below quotes:
Srimad Bhagavata 5/22/5-7 has said:
अथ स एष आत्मा लोकानां द्यावा पृथिव्योरन्तरेण नभोवलयस्य कालचक्रगतो द्वादशमासान् भुङ्क्ते राशि संज्ञान सम्वत्सरावयवान् मासः पक्षद्वयं दिवा नक्तं चेति सपादार्क्षद्वयमुपदिशन्ति यावता शष्ठमंशं भुञ्जीत स वै ऋतुरित्युपदिश्यते संवत्सरावयवः |5|
"The sun-god, who is the soul of the worlds, mounted on the wheel of time, which is poised in the upper air, midway between earth and heaven, passes through the twelve months that make up the year and are known by the names of different zodiacal signs like Mesha, Vrisha etc. The month consists of two fortnights the dark and the bright, according to the lunar reckoning. It is one day and one night (for the manes). And in the course of one month the sun transits the space occupied by two constellations (nakshatras) and a quarter. The period he takes to traverse one sixth of the length of the zodiac is called a season, another division of the year."
अथ च यावतार्धेन नभोवीथ्यां प्रचरति तं कालमयनमाचक्षते |6|
"The time the sun takes to traverse one-half of the zodiacal belt is called an 'ayana'."
अथ च यावन्नभोमण्डलं सह द्यावापृथिव्योर्मन्डलाभ्यां कार्त्स्न्येन् स ह् भुञ्जीत तं कालं संवत्सरं परिवत्सरमिदावत्सरम् अनुवत्सरमिति भानोर्मान्द्यशैघ्र्य सम गतिभिः समामनन्ति |7|
"The period that he takes to make a circuit of the entire firmament, between earth and heaven, is called by different names, 'samvatsara', 'parivatsara', 'ida-vatsara', 'anuvatsara', and 'vatsara', to denote the reckoning of the period in different ways according as it takes into account the acceleration, retardation and even movement of the sun's transit."(Translation by K Ragunathan, Vigneshwar Publishing House, Madras/Bangalore)
Here it has been made clear that a solar month comprises two and a quarter nakshatras, two such months make a season and such six seasons make a year named Samvatsara etc. which are the same names of solar years as in the Vedanga Jyotisham and the Mahabharata etc.
Here the lunar as well as the solar months are seasonal, i.e. tropical and it is those very solar months that have been said to contain two and a quarter nakshatra each.
The same thing has been explained in detail in the Vamana Purana 5/34 (Gita Press edition):
आदित्यंशश्च पुष्यं च आश्लेषा शशिनो गृहं| राशिः कर्कटको नाम पार्श्वे मख विनाशिनः ||
"The last quarter of Punarvasu, entire Pushya and Ashlesha nakshatra are part of Karkata Rashi".
The same Vamana Purana has said in 16/12
ततो दिवाकरो राशिं संप्रयाति च कर्कटम् | ततो अमराणां रजनी भवति दक्षिनायणं||
"After that the sun enters Karkata Rashi. That is the start of Dakshinayana (Summer Solstice) known as the night of gods".
So here also the nakshatras have been clubbed with tropical months and rashis!
Even in this twenty first century, the Karkata Rashi is said to be formed by the same nakshatras viz. a quarter of Punarvasu, whole Pushya and Ashlesha nakshatra, but then unfortunately, without any rhyme or reason, it is de-linked from Dakshinayana, against the injunctions of all the Puranas and shastras!
Thus when the same Vamana Purana says in 5/40:
उत्तरांशास्त्रयो ऋक्षं श्रवणं मकरो मुने धनिष्ठार्धं शनिक्षेत्रं ... i.e.
"O Seer, three quarters of Uttarashadha, complete Shravana nakshatra and two quarters of Dhanishtha comprise Makara Rashi", it means naturally that the Makara Rashi of Vamana Purana is also nothing but the start of the six months of Uttarayana, i.e. Makar Samkranti has to be the shortest day of the year!"
It is not only the Vamana Purana or Bhagavata Purana etc. but almost all the other Puranas like Shiva Maha Purana, Narada Purana, Vishnudharmottara Purana etc. also declare unequivocally that irrespective of the Rashi that a particular nakshatra may be in, it has to be in alignment with the seasons! In other words, the Mesha, Vrisha etc. signs as well as the nakshatras that are subsumed in them have to be so called Sayana (tropical)!
Since Dr. Raman is supposed to have collected the birth details of Bhagwan Krishna from Srimad Bhagavata etc., evidently, he has overlooked the glaring fact that Shrimad Bhagavata is talking of nothing but a seasonal Rashichakra! How could Bhagwan Krishna have Incarnated in a niraadhaar nirayana that too in Ramana Ayanamsha rasichakra!
Such points need to be pondered over and that too very very carefully!
With regards and Jai Shri Ram!
A K Kaul
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विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)
Jul 7, 2020, 12:49:31 PM7/7/20
to bhAratIya-vidvat-pariShad भारतीय-विद्वत्परिषद्, Jijith Nadumuri Ravi
An amusing quote from the Saha committee report:
"Some of the Indian calendar-makers are aware of these discrepancies, and give the ending moments of tithis according to the Nautical Almanac. But all of them give the moments of beginning and ending of lunar and solar eclipses according to the Nautical Almanac, as times calculated according to the Siddhantas may be grossly inaccurate, and the mistakes would at once catch public attention and lower their prestige. In the words of one of our colleagues (Dr. Gorakh Prasad), these almanac-makers are like bicycle-riders riding without lamps, who get down from their cycles on street corners, just to avoid being caught by the Police.
"
On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 10:16 PM A K Kaul <jyot...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Shri Jijith,Jai Shri Ram!Many thanks for your mail.As I receive every mail from the august forum bvp I have seen it already.You might be aware that it always takes some time to collect relevant material for answering a ticklish issue without hurting anybody's feelings. Hence the delay.Kindly bear with me till then.In the meantime, I find that there has been an indifferent attitude towards my earlier mails in response to Shri Radhakrishna Warrier's mails. It really puts a person off!I find it next to impossible to abide by the Law-giver Manu's admonishments:सत्यँ ब्रूयात् प्रियँ ब्रूयात् न ब्रूयात् सत्यमप्रियँ।।असत्यँ च प्रियँ न ब्रूयात् एष धर्मः सनातनः।।
With regards and Jai Shri Ram!A K Kaul
On Thu, 25 Jun 2020, 20:04 Jijith Nadumuri Ravi, <jiji...@gmail.com> wrote:Dear Sri AK Kaul jiPlease see below communication.RegardsJijithJijith Nadumuri RaviFormer Scientist ISRO,Founder -Dharma Digital, AncientVoiceDharma Digital:- Dharmic revival through holograms, virtual worlds and digital technologiesAncientVoice:- World's 1st and Largest Veda-Puruana-Itihasa wiki portal website with 23700 plus pages
On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 9:54 AM विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki) <vishvas...@gmail.com> wrote:
(I don't have AK Kaul's email id - if someone does please cc him.)
I am collecting vAkya-panchAnga errors such the below recent one in my notes at https://vvasuki.github.io/saMskAra/jyotisham/history/errors/ :- June 21 2020 was a special day - it was the solstice day, there was an annular solar eclipse visible from India (with peak at 11:47:35 am IST), and it naturally was amAvAsyA until 11:47:35 am IST. vAkya-panchAnga-s had obvious errors with regards to sun-moon conjunction (and consequently eclipse and end of amAvAsyA) - so tithi junction was till 12:30 or so. Some ritualists simply followed pop culture and used more accurate dRk-panchAnga-s for eclipse observances; while following vAkya-panchanga regarding parva-rituals! Such inconsistency! So, they incorrectly conducted sthAlIpAka the following day. (Not to mention, they must have continued saying "uttarAyaNe" in their sankalpa-s as well.)Besides the above and the like (wrong conjunctions involving other graha-s like budha, guru etc..), what other classes of errors do vAkya-panchAnga-s make?
----
Vishvas /विश्वासः
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G S S Murthy
Jul 7, 2020, 8:24:29 PM7/7/20
to bvpar...@googlegroups.com
I enjoyed the joke, Viswas ji.
Despite my being intentionally ignorant of astrology, my curiosity prompts me to ask this question: Can a panchanga be prepared purely on the basis of the Nautical Almanac? I may be forgiven if the question does not make sense.
Thanks and regards,
Murthy
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAFY6qgF6tz1xRBrjpmM8CW1NtL6GHUz8a8tjqFQJWwe3CQNZRg%40mail.gmail.com.
My web site : http://murthygss.tripod.com/index.htm
and also my Sanskrit blog :
and also my Sanskrit blog :
http://simplesanskrit.blogspot.com/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKzrC4a5BEo&feature=youtu.be
विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)
Jul 7, 2020, 9:00:28 PM7/7/20
to bhAratIya-vidvat-pariShad भारतीय-विद्वत्परिषद्
On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 5:54 AM G S S Murthy <murt...@gmail.com> wrote:
I enjoyed the joke, Viswas ji.Despite my being intentionally ignorant of astrology, my curiosity prompts me to ask this question: Can a panchanga be prepared purely on the basis of the Nautical Almanac?
Yes - dRk-panchAnga-s effectively do that (ie use the best ephemerides around).
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G S S Murthy
Jul 7, 2020, 9:04:59 PM7/7/20
to bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Thanks and regards,
Murthy
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Radhakrishna Warrier
Jul 7, 2020, 9:19:41 PM7/7/20
to Bharatiya Vidvat parishad
Dear Shri Kaul,
I have a question that may not be immediately related to this thread. My question is about pre-modern Indian astronomers following astronomical systems based on different ancient Indian astronomical works. Could they, and did they predict correctly
astronomical events like lunar and solar eclipses, conjunctions of heavenly bodies, etc.? Are there records of these astronomers predicting these events correctly?
Regards,
Radhakrishna Warrier
From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com <bvpar...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of A K Kaul <jyot...@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 5, 2020 4:45 AM
Subject: Fwd: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} vAkya-panchAnga errors.
Dear Shri Vishvas Vasuki,
Jai Shri Ram!
(Contd. from previous mail)
Vedic solar years are seasonal:
The master stroke is in the Shatapatha Brahmana 6/7/1/18 ‘‘ऋतुभिर्हि संवत्सरः शक्नोति स्थातुं"।
It declares quite unequivocally ‘‘A year can subsist only and only by dint of Ritus i.e. seasons!" !
So we may as well rest assured that any year that is not comprising seasons is not a Vedic year at all, whatever else it may be!
Let us see other references!
Shatapatha Brahmana 2/1/3/2 says ‘‘स यत्र उदड.ड.ा वर्तते देवेषु तर्हि भवति...यत्र दक्षिणावर्तते पितृषु तर्हि भवति‘‘।
When the sun is in Uttarayana it is in Devaloka. When it is in Dakshinayana, it is in the Pitraloka.
Shatapatha Brahmana 14/4/3/23 has also said ‘‘स एष संवत्सरः प्रजापतिः‘‘ The year itself is Prajapati!"
It has repeated the same thing in in 24/16/5/3 ‘‘यो वै संवत्सरः प्रजापतिः‘‘
(There is no doubt that) The year itself is Prajapatih, i.e. lord of the creation. Thus Samvatsar is the form of Ishwara in the form of Time!
So what is the form of such a Prajapati and how does it start, let us see it further from the same Vedic lore:
Prashnopanishat, which is a part of the
Atharva-Veda says in 1/9 ‘‘संवत्सरो वै प्रजापतिस्तस्यायनं दक्षिणं चोत्तरं च‘‘
"Samvatsar itself is Prajapati and it has two Ayanas, the Uttarayana and Dakshinayana i.e. the six months from Winter Solstice to the Summer Solstice and vice-versa!"
Aatharvana Tripadvibhuti Mahanarayan Upanishad
says in 3/1
‘‘पंचदश दिनानि पक्षो भवति। पक्षद्वयं मासो भवति। मास द्वयं ऋतुर्भवति। अयनद्वयं वत्सरो भवति।‘‘
''A fortnight comprises fifteen days. Two fortnights comprise a month. Two months comprise a Ritu and two Ayanas comprise a year"
Maitrayani Brahman Upanishat 6/14 ‘‘सूर्यो योनिः कालस्य। तस्यैतद्रूपं यन्निमेषादिकालात्संभृतं द्वादशात्मकं वत्सरमेतस्याग्नेयमर्धं वारुणम्।
मघाद्यं श्रविष्ठार्धमाग्नेयं क्रमेणोत्क्रमेण सार्पाद्यं श्रविष्ठार्धान्तं सौम्यम्। तत्रैकैकमासात्मनो नवांशकं सचारकविधं सौक्ष्मत्वादेतत्प्रमाणमनेनैव प्रमीयते हि कालः‘‘।
"The sun is the womb of Time, which has the form of nimesha ( a twinkle), a year of twelve months, one half of which is 'fiery' which is known as Uttarayana. The second half
which is 'watery' is Dakshinayana. Uttarayana ranges from the start of Magha nakshatra to the mid-Shravishtha whereas Dkashinayana, which starts from the beginning of Ashlesha, ranges upto the middle of Dhanishtha! "
Similarly, as per Aitreya Brahman 1/1
Similarly, as per Aitreya Brahman 1/1
‘‘सप्तदशो वै प्रजापतिः। द्वादश मासाः पंचर्तवः हेमन्तशिशिरयोः समासेन। तावान् संवत्सरः। संवत्सरः प्रजापतिः।।''
‘‘ The Prajapati has seventeen limbs in the form of a Samvatsara. (And these are) 12 months, five Ritus (by clubbing Hemanta and Shisira together). No doubt Samvatsarah is Prajapatih."
Aitreya Brahmana 18/2 ‘‘शड् वा ऋतवः ऋतुश एव तत् संवत्सरमाप्नुवन्ति।। ऋतुशः संवत्सरे प्रतितिष्ठन्तो यन्ति। द्वादश वै मासा मासश एव तत् संवत्सरमाप्नुवन्ति मासशः संवत्सरे प्रतितिष्ठन्तो यन्ति।।''
Aitreya Brahmana 18/2 ‘‘शड् वा ऋतवः ऋतुश एव तत् संवत्सरमाप्नुवन्ति।। ऋतुशः संवत्सरे प्रतितिष्ठन्तो यन्ति। द्वादश वै मासा मासश एव तत् संवत्सरमाप्नुवन्ति मासशः संवत्सरे प्रतितिष्ठन्तो यन्ति।।''
‘‘There are six Ritus. A Hota attains the Prajapati i.e. Samvatsara through six seasons. A Samvatsarah has twelve months.....!
Krishna Yajurveda 3/9/22/1 says ‘‘एकंवा एतद् देवानामहर् यत् संवत्सरः" A year (of humans) is a day of gods. (That means it can only be a tropical year!)
Krishna Yajurveda 3/9/22/1 says ‘‘एकंवा एतद् देवानामहर् यत् संवत्सरः" A year (of humans) is a day of gods. (That means it can only be a tropical year!)
In the
Brihad-Arnyaka Upanishad 3/6/9 there is an interesting discussion between Vachaknavi Gargi and Yajnyavalkya, where the latter has said
‘‘एतस्य वा अक्षरस्य प्रशासने गार्ग्यहोरात्राण्यर्द्धमासा मासा ऋतवः संवत्सरा विधृतास्तिष्ठन्ति।"
‘‘ O Gargi, under the rule of (the Parabrahaman) the days, nights, fortnights, months, Ritus and and Samvatsaras can subsist!"
In the same Upanishat 3/9/5 Vidagdha Shakalya asks ‘‘कतम आदित्या इति ‘‘How many suns are there? Yajnyavalkya replies ‘‘द्वादश वै मासाः संवत्सरश्चैत आदित्या एतेहीदं सर्वमाददाना यन्ति ते यदिदं
सर्वमाददाना यन्ति तस्मादादित्या इति।‘‘
"There are twelve adityas. The months themselves are Adityas. Since they preside over the months and bestow the results of good or bad deeds (of the people)."
And what are these months? The Krishna Yajurveda 139/40 says
‘‘मधुश्च माधवश्च वासन्तिकावृतू शुक्रश्च शुचिश्च ग्रैष्मावृतू। नभश्च नभस्यश्च वार्षिकावृतू। ईषश्चोर्जश्च शारदावृतू। सहश्च सहस्यश्च हैमन्तिकावृतू। तपश्च तपस्यश्च शैशिरावृतू।।‘‘
"Madhu and Madhava are the months of Vasanta. Shukrah and Shuchih the months of Greeshma; Nabhas and Nabhasya the months of Varsha; Isha and Urja the months of Sharat Ritu; Sahah and Sahasya
the months of Hemanta; and Tapas and Tapasya the months of Shishira Ritu!"
From the above incontrovertible proofs, it gets established once for all that the Vedas talk of nothing but a seasonal i.e. tropical year!
It started from the Winter Solstice at the time of the Vedanga Jyotisha.
However, since quite a few Vedic mantras also start from Madhu, Madhava and so on, there is every possibility that the Spring Equinox was the first month of the seasonal year at some point of
time in the past.
Nirayana years make doubtful even the moksha (liberation) of its followers:
Chahandogya Upanishad (a part of
Samavediya Talwakar Braman) says in 4/15/5
‘‘अथ यदु चैवास्मिंछव्यं कुर्वन्ति यदि च नार्चिषमेवाभिसंभवन्त्यर्चिषोअहरह्न आपूर्यमाणपक्षाद्यान् षडुदङ्ङ्ेति मासांस्तान्मासेभ्यः संवत्सरं संवत्सरादादित्यमादित्याच्चन्द्रमसं चन्द्रमसो विद्युतं तत्पुरुषोऽमानवः स एनान्ब्रह्मगमयत्यिेष
देवपथो ब्रह्मपथ एतेन प्रतिपद्यमाना इमं मानवम्नावर्तंत नावर्तन्ते नावर्तन्ते।।‘‘
Gita Press Hindi translation says
अब श्रुति पूर्वोक्त ब्रह्मवेत्ता की गति बतलाती है}- इसके लिए शव कर्म करें अथवा न करें, वह अर्चिराभिमानी देवता को ही प्राप्त होता है | फिर अर्चिराभिमानी देवता से दिवसाभिमानी देवता
को, दिवसाभिमानी से शुक्लपक्षाभिमानी देवता को और शुक्लपक्षाभिमानी देवता से उत्तरायण के
छः मासों को प्राप्त होता है। मासों से संवत्सर को संवत्सर से आद्त्यको आदित्य से चन्द्रमाको और चन्द्रमा से विद्युत् को प्राप्त होता है | वहां से
अमानव पुरुष इन्हें
ब्रह्म को प्राप्त करा देता है। यह
देवमार्ग-ब्रह्ममार्ग है। इससे जाने वाले पुरुष इस मानव
मण्डल में नहीं लौटते; नहीं लौटते।।
Thus we have to realize as to what type of day, fortnight, month, Uttarayana and Samvatsarah etc. we must use, whether
niraadhaar niraayana like Lahiri or Chitra etc., or the real Vedic i.e. seasonal, not only for the present life/birth on this planet but for hereafter---i.e. life after life!
I recall the admonishment of Shri Vasishtha Muni in his immortal Yogavasishtha
इहैव नरक व्याधेश्चिकित्सां न करोति यः | गत्वा निरौषधं स्थानं स रुज: किं करिष्यति ||
Nirayana is really
niraadhaar!
To sum up, the new solar year that we are supposed to celebrate around April 14/15 every year is not related to any of the four cardinal points viz. the two equinoxes and two solstices. Nor
is it related to any season. All it is related to is the "almighty" Lahiri Ayanamsha!
So it is anything but Vedic!
Nor is it Pauranic!
Nor is it Siddhantic!
We cannot call it Meshadi either in the true sense of the word since all our Puranas and siddhantas talk of nothing but a seasonal Mesha -Rashi, which starts on the day of Vernal Equinox!
As such, we must switch over to the real Vedic calendar viz. the seasonal year without any further delay, as otherwise we will continue to wallow in the mud of
"almighty" Lahiri Rashichakra and his Meshadi, Vaishakhadi etc. etc.
We shall see in the next mail as to how the Bhagvadgita apart from all the Puranas and siddhantas and the Itihasas also talk about a seasonal year/calendar.
(To be contd.)
With regards and Jai Shri Ram!
A K Kaul
PS: This mail had become quite long. So some of the interim mails have been deleted.
AKK
On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 10:31 PM A K Kaul <jyot...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Shri Vishvas Vasuki,Jai Shri Ram!Your mail is really very interesting in the sense that it has touched some raw nerves!You have made an interesting inquiry
<Besides the above and the like (wrong conjunctions involving other graha-s like budha, guru etc..), what other classes of errors do vAkya-panchAnga-s make?>
With regards and Jai Shri Ram!A K Kaul
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विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)
Jul 7, 2020, 9:47:29 PM7/7/20
to bhAratIya-vidvat-pariShad भारतीय-विद्वत्परिषद्
On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 6:49 AM Radhakrishna Warrier <radwa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Dear Shri Kaul,
I have a question that may not be immediately related to this thread. My question is about pre-modern Indian astronomers following astronomical systems based on different ancient Indian astronomical works. Could they, and did they predict correctly astronomical events like lunar and solar eclipses, conjunctions of heavenly bodies, etc.?
Certainly yes. Even now, they're mostly off by tens of minutes.
As the committee wrote: "In India, astronomical observations stopped from about 1200 A.D. after the advent of the Turkish invaders, when Indian observatories were either destroyed or abandoned by the astronomers and calendar making fell into the hands of astrologers, who had to depend on ancient treatises. "
Are there records of these astronomers predicting these events correctly?
Yet to check thoroughly, but from Rgvedic times (following Tilak's interpretation):
" स्व॑र्भानो॒रध॒ यदि॑न्द्र मा॒या अ॒वो दि॒वो वर्त॑माना अ॒वाह॑न् । गू॒ऴं सूर्यं॒ तम॒साप॑व्रतेन तु॒रीये॑ण॒ ब्रह्म॑णा (=device or axial division) ऽविन्द॒दत्रिः॑ ।।"
Here is a recent record:
"during the solar eclipse of August 18, 1868 raghunAthAchAri was able to demonstrate his predictions: He got the eclipse time correct with an error of 12 seconds using calculations done by his hand while the traditional astronomers performed dismally with a whopping 24 minute error. This had a strong effect and many traditional Hindus now switched over to his side. He then demolished the most recalcitrant traditional astronomers in a sadas of brāhmaṇa-s of the Dramiḍa country. Seeing this the Śaṃkara maṭha sent out a circular stating that the Vedic ritualists Venkateshvara Dikshita and Sundaresha Shrautin were correct in adopting modern theory and techniques for their rituals. His efforts were paralleled by those of Ketkar in Maharashtra and Venkatakrishna Raya in Andhra to get the Hindus to use modern astronomical calculations."
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A K Kaul
Jul 8, 2020, 9:18:07 AM7/8/20
to Bharatiya Vidvat parishad, Darshaney Lokesh
Dear Shri Venkatesh Murthy,
Jai Shri Ram!
Many thanks again for your response!
In fact, what problems/difficulties you are expressing are the same/similar that I faced myself while analyzing the gamut of our fasts, fairs and muhurtas!
<
Almost all important festivals have a nakshatra we have to celebrate them when the nakshatra is close to celebration day.>
This is exactly putting the cart before the horse!
No! Ram Navmi is to be celebrated on Shukla Paksha Navmi of Chaitra which has to be seasonal Chaitra i.e. Madhu and not "almighty" Lahiri Chaitra or "not so mighty Ramana Chaitra" and so on!
It may be coupled with Punarvasu nakshatra on that very day or not --- that does not matter much!
Here are the proofs:Valmiki Ramayana 2/18/7 has said
ततश्च द्वादशे मासे चैत्रे नावमिके तिथौ | नक्षत्रे अदिति दैवत्ये स्वोच्चसंस्थेषु पञ्चसु |
ग्रहेषु कर्कटे लग्ने वाक्पातविन्दुना सह |प्रोद्यमाने जगन्नाथं सर्वलोक नमस्कृतं||
कौसल्या जनयद्रामं दिव्यलक्षण संयुतम् ||
''After six seasons had elapsed since the yajnya was performed, in the twelfth month of Chaitra on Navmi Tithi, Punarvasu nakshatra, with five planets exalted, the Ascendant being Karkata with the moon and Jupiter posited in it, Sri Rama was born"
The confusion here is about Chaitra, since all along it has been dinned into our ears by our Panchanga-makers that lunar months are either Lahiri or Ramana or some other nirayana!
But did the Valmiki Ramayana really mean a nirayana Chaitra? No! Nirayana was unheard of then, as is evident from the avalanche of proofs I have provided from all the Vedas, the Puranas and even the siddhantas!
The Surya Siddhanta, the Siddhanta Shekhara and even Bhaskaracharya have in one voice said that a lunar new year for calculating the Panchanga has to start from the month Madhu, which has been translated as lunar Chaitra by all the commentators! Obviously, it is seasonal Chaitra!
Acharya Sayana has in one voice clubbed the months of lunar Chaitra and Vaishakha with Vasanta Ritu and so on 7whether in Taittiriya Samhita or Samaveda or Shatapatha Brahmana and so on!
That the Valmiki Ramayana also was talking of a Chaitra of Vasanta Ritu will be clear from 2/3/4 which states
चैत्रः श्रीमानयं मासः पुण्यः पुष्पित काननः | यौवराज्याय रामस्य सर्वमेवोपकल्प्यताम् ||
"It is the month of resplendent Chaitra and the flowers are in full blossom in the forests. You may therefore make preparations for anointing Rama as the heir regent"
That leaves no doubt in anybody's mind that Maharshi Valmiki was talking about the seasonal Cahitra-cum-Madhu.
If you go through the VR with a tooth comb you will literally find that all the lunar months that it has talked about are nothing but seasonal and not Lahiri months!
Other "Ramayanas" have reiterated/clarified the same point in a very unambiguous manner!
Goswami Tulsidas has said in his immortal Rama Charitamanasa--Balakanda
नवमी तिथि मधुमास पुनीता सुकल पच्छ अभिजित हरि प्रीता।
मध्य दिवस अति सीत न गामा। पावन काल लोक विश्रामा।
"It was Shukla Paksha Navmi of the month of holy Madhu, it being Abhijit which is dear to Bhagwan Vishnu, the time was midday when it was neither very hot nor very cold..."
Goswami Tulsidas is silent about the Punarvasu nakshatra of Bhagwan Ram! Why? We shall see it shortly!
The Gita Press has translated "Madhu" of Goswamiji as Chaitra! (Attachment Tulsidasji-Madhu=Chaitra)
Similarly, Adhyatma Ramayana, which is a part of Brahmanda Purana, has said in 1/3/13
मधुमासे सिते पक्षे नवम्यां कर्कटे शुभे | पुनर्वस्वृक्ष सहिते उच्चस्थे ग्रह पञ्चके ||
मेषं पूषणि संप्राप्ते पुष्पवृष्टि समाकुले ....
''On shukla Paksha Navmi of the month of Madhu, in Punarvasu nakshatra, with five planets exalted with the sun was in Mesha"
The attachment ''Adyatma Ramayana-Madhu=Chaitra" shows as to how the month of Madhu has been translated as Chaitra by the Gita Press tanslators, exactly as it was translated by Ranganatha or Pandit Sudhakar Dwivedi and so on while commenting on the "Madhu-mas" of the Surya Siddhanta etc.!
And as you must be aware, Gita Press is a name to reckon with!
So whether the "niraayana-walas" like it or not, the month of Chaitra in our Vedas, Puranas, itihasas and siddhantas is nothing but the month of Madhu and the month of Madhu is nothing but Chaitra!!
< Ramanavami is with Punarvasu but actually it maybe with Ardrata nakshatra or neighbouring nakshatra"!>
< Ramanavami is with Punarvasu but actually it maybe with Ardrata nakshatra or neighbouring nakshatra"!>
I am attaching "Shri Mohan Krity Arsha Patrakam" in Hindi, compiled by Shri Darshaney Lokesh. As per page 45 of this work, Shri Ramanavmi was on March 4, 2020, when Mrigashira nakshatra had ended and Ardra nakshatra started at 8-09 hrs. IST. Ardra nakshatra ended at 3-29 of March 6, when Punarvasu started.
Thus it was exactly within two days from Shri Ramanavmi, as desired by you!
As such by following the "Reformed Hndu Calendar" not only are you celebrating Shri Ramanavmi in the month of Madhu, as advised by our scriptures actually, but within Punarvasu nakshatra plus or minus a couple of days, exactly what is happening in the case of ''almighty" Lahiri Ramanavmi, with the only difference that you are celebrating it in a wrong month in the nirayana confusion!
Thus here you really have the cake and you can eat it as well!
It will continue to be like that in future also since adhika-masa in the case of seasonal solar months vis-a-vis seasonal lunar months is more scientific and that will make the nakshatras pegged to the festivals within a couple of days plus or minus!
<
You have tried to argue against this saying there is no Rama Janma details available in our texts. But Sri Vishwas has given you references. >
There is an inherent contradiction in the case of Navmi tithi, Punarvasu nakshatra equal division and the sun in Mesha in the Valmiki and other Ramayanas!!
Punarvasu nakshatra ranges from 20 degrees of Mithuna to 3° 20' of Karkata in equal division. And for Navmi tithi, the Moon has to be ahead of the sun between 96° and 108°. As the moon cannot be more than 93° 20' if it has to be in Punarvasu, the sun has to be anywhere at the most 93° 20' minus (360° + 93° 20'-96°)=357° 20' i.e. 27° 20' of Mina Rashi and not exalted therefore!
Shri Vinay Jha, the well known scholar of Surya Siddhanta has given a detailed analysis of the same in his "Itihas ka Upahas" available at
He is also of the opinion that Bhagwan Ram had Incarnted in the fag end of Treta Yuga which was around about 870000 years back as per the Surya Siddhanta!
I will take up the case of Shri Krishna Janmashtami, as to how we are being compelled by "Vedic Panchanga-makers" to celebrate it on wrong days, like all the other festivals!
The parting short is that those claiming that they are celebrating festivals as per "aarsha Siddhanta" viz. the Surya Siddhanta are celebrating all the festivals on wrong days---even the reverred Jagadgurus being no exception!--- since the SS has started the new lunar year from Madhu i.e. seasonal Chaitra and not Lahiri Chaitra!
With regards and Jai Shri Ram!
A K Kaul
PS
I had to truncate the "Shri Mohan Krity Arsha Patrakam" of some pages because the Google groups do not accept attachments of moe than 8 mb. If any one wants the complete version, he may write to me at jyotirved-at-gmail-dot-com or to Shri Darshaney Lokesh, to whom a copy is being endorsed.
AKK
That is why I said if you go for correct seasons you will give up Nakshatras and if you go for correct Nakshatras you will give up seasons.I say give up seasons. Why? Because Nakshatras are more important and powerful in our tradition of ancient Rishis.Therefore Nirayana is victorious over Sayana calendar.
Regards
Superficial followers of this reasoning should consider the following:- Do they see the moon (representing the gem of yadu branch of chandravamsha) rise at midnight (which happens naturally during aShTamI) at rohiNI (ie Aldebran aka alpha Tauri, appropriately in the bovine constellation)?
Do you see the Sun and then do Sandhya Vandana? No. As a matter of fact there is a Sastra prohibition to see the rising and setting Sun. नेक्षेतोद्यन्तमादित्यं नच नग्नां परस्त्रियम्The Nakshatras are much brighter than our Sun according to modern Science. They are very powerful and we should not stop respecting them just because they are far away.- Do they look at the sky on rAmanavamI and observe the moon at punarvasU (never mind further inferences about the diametrically opposite dhanur rAshi, shravaNa trio along the celestial river near dhaniShThA etc..)?The Moon in Punarvasu is not visible in the sky in day time at Rama Navami. Why we should we look at the Moon? Not necessary. The Moon is internally our Mind. We must focus our Mind on--- Do they celebrate the sacred day of kArttikeya when the ShaShTI moon is with the kRttikA-s (Pleiades), roughly opposite in the naxatra-chakra to the place of his brother vishAkha, not far from where semen of his father fell into the celestial river and grew along the "sharavaNa" (all identifiable in the night sky)?If the answer is no, they should ask themselves who they're kidding with their naxatra identifications.
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--Regards-Venkatesh
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विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)
Jul 8, 2020, 10:14:32 AM7/8/20
to bhAratIya-vidvat-pariShad भारतीय-विद्वत्परिषद्, Darshaney Lokesh
On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 6:48 PM A K Kaul <jyot...@gmail.com> wrote:
The parting short is that those claiming that they are celebrating festivals as per "aarsha Siddhanta" viz. the Surya Siddhanta are celebrating all the festivals on wrong days---even the reverred Jagadgurus being no exception!--- since the SS has started the new lunar year from Madhu i.e. seasonal Chaitra and not Lahiri Chaitra!
Good argument, of which the above is the crux. How do you infer that madhu necessarily means seasonal (rather than siderial) chaitra, though?
Venkatesh Murthy
Jul 8, 2020, 11:01:10 AM7/8/20
to bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Namaste Sri Kaulji
Your argument has this fault.
A=B in the past. But Today A is not equal to B. You are arguing for A today saying B was never supported. This is the problem.
Seasonal calendar = Sidereal calendar in the past because in ancient India times Ayanamsha was very small and negligible.
Seasonal Madhu was same as Sidereal Chaitra with full moon at Chitra Nakshatra.
People were celebrating festivals in the right season and right Nakshatra also. Everybody was happy.
Now see what has happened. The Ayanamsha has become bigger and not negligible.
Seasonal is not equal to Sidereal.
You are arguing our texts supported only Seasonal months and never Sidereal. This is the problem.
During ancient times there was no big difference between Seasonal and Sidereal. How can you say they supported only Seasonal months?
There is evidence they supported the Nakshatra based Sidereal calendar but you continue to ignore it.
The Nirayana Sidereal calendar gives importance to Nakshatras based luni solar calendar.
If you depart away from Nakshatras you will celebrate Rama Navami not in Ardra or Punarvasu or Mrugasira but in Revati or Purva Bhadra. That is a tragedy.
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Regards
-Venkatesh
A K Kaul
Jul 8, 2020, 2:42:12 PM7/8/20
to Bharatiya Vidvat parishad
Deat Shri Venkatesh Mutthi,
Jai Shri Ram!
Do you mean to say that Ayanamsha was negligible--virtually zero---right from the time of Maharshi Valmiki through Bhishma Nirvana and the Vedanga Jyotish and then Surya Siddhanta and then Bhaskaracharya and then Acharya Sayana and then Ranganatha and then Pandit Sudhakar Dwivedi and so on!
And it has become unmanageable now, thanks to "almighty" Lahiri!
Well, I just give up and rest my discussion here!
With regards and Jai Shri Ram!
S K Kaul
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A K Kaul
Jul 8, 2020, 2:50:14 PM7/8/20
to Bharatiya Vidvat parishad
Dear Shri Venkatesh Murthy,
Jai Shri Ram!
In the mail just sent the "google spell checker" has misspelt your surname.
My apologies for the ssme!
With regards and Jai Shri Ram!
A K Kaul
Kalicharan Tuvij
Jul 8, 2020, 4:45:47 PM7/8/20
to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्
Namaste,
Seeing that this debate has become seasonal, let me reiterate a few points lest some people lose faith in traditional pancanga time scales and system.
1) no ayanamsha-s are perfect today, but most are good enough.
2) there does exist the "correct ayanamsha" and if it is not known at large to people then it is for a reason.
3) a lot of ongoing/past research has shown clear links of monsoons with siderial motions, including 2nd order effects. To supplement pancanga with modern science, however, would take more than the current rent-seeking behaviour of our academia.
4) yuga-s exist. This wheel rotates simply because in pancanga no two years are same.
A K Kaul
Jul 8, 2020, 11:20:47 PM7/8/20
to Bharatiya Vidvat parishad
Shri Vishvas Vasuki,
Jai Shri Ram!
All the Vedas claim मधुश्च माधवश्च वासन्तिकावृतू and so on.
The Vedanga Jyotish has clubbed Madhu and Madhava with Vasant Ritu and so on.
All the Purana have clubbed Madhu and Madhava with Vasant Ritu and so on.
The well known Vedic commentator viz. Acharya Sayana also has equated Madhu with Chaitra, Madhava with Vaishakha and so on and clubbed them with respective seasons.
There are absolutely no exceptions in the same.
With regards and Jai Shri Ram!
A K Kaul
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A K Kaul
Jul 9, 2020, 3:40:22 AM7/9/20
to Bharatiya Vidvat parishad
Shri Kalicharan Tuvijji,
Jai Shri Ram!
<3) a lot of ongoing/past research has shown clear links of monsoons with siderial motions, including 2nd order effects. To supplement pancanga with modern science, however, would take more than the current rent-seeking behaviour of our academia.>
The Vedic, including that of the Panchama-Veda, seasons are the most scientific whereas the nirayana seasons are really niradhar! How and why?
The first and foremost point that we have to bear in mind is that seasons are impervious to precession! Hence they have nothing to do with "sidereal" or even tropical!
Secondly, there were no Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis in the Vedas or the Vedangas, hence there was no sayana-nirayana confusion then!
Vedic months Madhu-cum-Chaitra, Madhava-cum-Vaishakha etc. were aligned to season and their connotation was very impressive to scholars like Acharya Sayana!.
Now the scientific reasons for the Vedic seasons being natural instead of artificial phenomena:
1. It is but natural that on the shortest day of the year viz. the Pauranik and siddhantinc Makar Sankranti/Pongal--December 21---the sun shines for the minimum time.
Hence there is least warmth and maximum cold.
Thus that is the day when Shishir Ritu starts. That is also the day when the sun has the maximum Southern Declination and starts turning north, hence Uttarayan.
It cannot happen on any other day much less on "almighty" Lahiri Pongal-cum-Makar Samkranti!
It is the real Shishir Samkranti of Kashmir, in fact the whole of Bharat-varsha!!
Vedic names of Tapas and Tapasya of Shishira months are very significant since that is the best time to be confined to indoors and do "Tapasya"!
In Kashmir, this period of two months is (was?) known as "Chilla Kalaan", "Chilla Khurd" and "Chilla Bacha" . "Chilla" means "seclusion, penance" in Persian and "Kalaan" means "the bigger (period)", "Khurd" the "smaller period" and "Bacha" the period when it is going to end!
2. On Vasant Samapat viz. the Vishuvat, (Vernal Equinox) the day of Pauranik and siddhantic Mesha Sankranti, the day is equal to night, around March 21. The days start becoming longer and nights shorter.
That is why it is neither very hot nor very cold but pleasant and hence the second month of Vasant Ritu. It is the month of Madhava and Acharyn Sayana has defined it beautifully in his commentaries on the Vedas and the Shatapatha Brahmana!
This can never happen on any nirayana Mesha samkranti whether Lahiri or Raman or Yukteshwar or Fagan and so on!
3. On Dakshinayan day, around June 21, when the sun starts turning south after having maximum northern declination, the day is the longest and hence the sun shines for maximum duration. That is the real Pauranik and siddhantic Karkata Sankranti when Varsha Ritu starts. This cannot happen on any nirayana Karkata Samkranti.
The Vedic names for the two months of Varsha are "Nabhas" and "Nabhasya"! What a beautiful definition of the rainy season!
4. On Sharat Sampat (Autumn Equinox), around September 22, day is again equal to night and nights start becoming longer than days with the result that the rays of the sun start having less and less of scorching power. Thus the second month of Sharat Ritu. The Vedic name of this month is "Urja"---again a beautiful and significant name!
And still we are cribbing that our Vedic seers were not scientific but our "Lahiri scientists" are weather experts!
Anyway, the above is for northern latitudes.
<4) yuga-s exist. This wheel rotates simply because in pancanga no two years are same.>
Regarding the duration of Yugas, there is a considerable difference between Aryabhata Yugas and the Surya Siddhanta Yugas.
Both cannot be correct though both may be wrong.
Besides, the homo sapiens have been around for the last less than 200000 years whereas according to the Surya Siddhanta, the Kaliyuga itself has a duration of 432000 years and before that Dwapara Yuga was of 864000 years! On the other hand, as per Aryabhata, een Dwapara-yuga had a duraton of 1080000 years!
Thus Yuga duration is irreconcilable with scientific facts.
The most ironical part is that as per one and the same Aryabhata, Kaliyuga is supposed to have started at midnight of February 17/18, 3102 BCE as per his Aryabhata Siddhanta but as per Aryabhatiya of the same Aryabhata he made it start at 6.00 am of Ujjain Mean Time at Ujjain on February 18, 3102 BCE.
Even Aryabhata's contemporaneous Varahamihira was shell shocked to see such an "invention" of Aryabhata as is evident from his Panchasuddhantika XV/20. (Attachment VM Date)
With regards and Jai Shri Ram!
A K Kaul
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Venkatesh Murthy
Jul 9, 2020, 11:57:20 AM7/9/20
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Namaste Sri Kaulji
On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 12:12 AM A K Kaul <jyot...@gmail.com> wrote:
Deat Shri Venkatesh Mutthi,Jai Shri Ram!Do you mean to say that Ayanamsha was negligible--virtually zero---right from the time of Maharshi Valmiki through Bhishma Nirvana and the Vedanga Jyotish and then Surya Siddhanta and then Bhaskaracharya and then Acharya Sayana and then Ranganatha and then Pandit Sudhakar Dwivedi and so on!
I mean when the Surya Siddhanta was being used in ancient times the Ayanamsha was small. Now the difference between Sayana and Nirayana is 22 days but in those days it was a few days only. Therefore there was no problem if the festivals were late by a few days and on or close to the correct Nakshatras.
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Regards
-Venkatesh
Venkatakrishna Sastry
Jul 10, 2020, 10:29:13 AM7/10/20
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Namaste
In the discussion on < Vednaga Jyotisha> and < panchanga use in practices of current period>, much discussion has taken place.
Ask the question differently: How did the ancient rishi's use this knowledge and how that aspect is being investigated by < interpretation of Samskruth Terms>.
Here with I am attaching a paper by Researcher Asko Parpola. Title: The Mirror in ancient India : Its ancient use and present relevance in dating texts.
The term under discussion is 'aadarsha'.
The debated point is on the meaning of the term and the split of the term as < aa- darsha>.
The line of inquiry is on ' Mirror' in vedic times. Why is this important? Mirror, its making, usage clearly establishes a history time line footprint. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror).
Therefore the point to explore here is ' Mirror in Vedas' in relation to ' Observation through mirror for astronomical calculations/ observatory usage model'. If one can establish telescope for seeing far away, the complement of it as ' lens' and ' microscope models' can also be researched in samskruth literature of early period.
On the other side, if <aadarsha> is split as < aa- darsha> , two word-units, and interpret as ' till the dark moon', the interpretation of text leads to a different conclusion, as the author of the article takes it.
So the question: How to explain <aadarsha> in vedanga jyotisha context ? We can talk about Stellarium and software as modern tools. Vakya panchanga relies on 'vakya' for calculation of ' observed posiitons and their significance'. The fact stands that these tools did not exist in the historic past to which the texts discussed belong to.
Look forward for schoalrs inputs.
Regards
BVK Sastry
From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of A K Kaul
Sent: Thursday, 9 July, 2020 8:50 AM
To: Bharatiya Vidvat parishad
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} vAkya-panchAnga errors.
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G S S Murthy
Jul 10, 2020, 12:05:25 PM7/10/20
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Cannot an onetime big leap of say 3 weeks to align sankrantis with solstices and closely following Nautical Alamanac thereafter be good enough for a few hundred years?
Thanks and regards,
Murthy
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विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)
Jul 10, 2020, 12:41:46 PM7/10/20
to bhAratIya-vidvat-pariShad भारतीय-विद्वत्परिषद्
It turns out that all the siderial vs tropical arguments have already happened long time ago. If after reading Daftari's dissent note: https://vvasuki.github.io/saMskAra/jyotisham/history/calendar_reform_comittee_report/02_PART-A/10_ANNEXURE_IV_Dissent_by_K_L_Daftari_-_reasons/ nirayaNa fanatics are not convinced, nothing will convince them.
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Venkatesh Murthy
Jul 10, 2020, 12:47:11 PM7/10/20
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Namaste Sri Murthy Mahodaya
The matter is not so simple. If we make the Sankrantis and Solstices same now we will not have Nakshatra accuracy. Or if we chase Nakshatra accuracy we will not have Tithi accuracy. Take for example, Ramanuja Jayanti given in the Reformed Hindu Calendar sent by Sri Kaul. In that calendar they have given Ramanuja Jayanti as April 2. But it is Navami Tithi. No where I have heard Sri Vaishnavas celebrating it on Navami. It is on Panchami or at most Sashti always. In the Drik Panchangam it is given correctly as April 28 with Panchami.
On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 9:35 PM G S S Murthy <murt...@gmail.com> wrote:
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-Venkatesh
venkat veeraraghavan
Jul 10, 2020, 1:25:15 PM7/10/20
to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्
Dear Shri Kaul ji:
You say:
"It is just not possible that it could have been written so many years back since the homo sapiens have been around for not more than 200000 years as per
"It is just not possible that it could have been written so many years back since the homo sapiens have been around for not more than 200000 years as per
If it is just a matter of faith, I have nothing to say and I just respect your views."
and you also say:
"No! Ram Navmi is to be celebrated on Shukla Paksha Navmi of Chaitra which has to be seasonal Chaitra i.e. Madhu and not "almighty" Lahiri Chaitra or "not so mighty Ramana Chaitra" and so on! "
Sir this is not about you respecting my views, but about you respecting your own views.
It worries me when a person does not have consistency in their arguments and synchronisation with their core beliefs.
1. If you are very sure based on the infallible information provided in https://www.britannica.com/topic/Homo-sapiens-sapiens why this agenda to fix the "right" date for Shri Rama Navami?
2. There is a clear contradiction in your second statement that goes against your belief that Valmiki could not have recorded the heavens on Rama's date etc.
"There is an inherent contradiction in the case of Navmi tithi, Punarvasu nakshatra ......° 20' i.e. 27° 20' of Mina Rashi and not exalted therefore!
Shri Vinay Jha, the well known scholar of Surya Siddhanta has given a detailed analysis of the same in his "Itihas ka Upahas" available at
"
With respect to your other issue regarding the problems set out by Shri Vinay Jha etc. There is an inherent assumption that Rama belonged to the Treta yuga of this yuga cycle when He was recorded as having incarnated in a previous yuga cycle.
Regards,
Venkat
On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 6:48 PM A K Kaul <jyot...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Shri Venkatesh Murthy,Jai Shri Ram!
Many thanks again for your response!In fact, what problems/difficulties you are expressing are the same/similar that I faced myself while analyzing the gamut of our fasts, fairs and muhurtas!< Almost all important festivals have a nakshatra we have to celebrate them when the nakshatra is close to celebration day.>This is exactly putting the cart before the horse!
No!It is just not possible that it could have been written so many years back since the homo sapiens have been around for not more than 200000 years as perIf it is just a matter of faith, I have nothing to say and I just respect your views.mayana 2/18/7 has said
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A K Kaul
Jul 10, 2020, 1:26:14 PM7/10/20
to Bharatiya Vidvat parishad
Dear Shri Vishvas Vasuki,
Jai Shri Ram!
<
It turns out that all the siderial vs tropical arguments have already happened long time ago.>
Pl. go through "Chitra-janmpatri" that I have sent as an attachment.
There is a thorough discussion about nirayana versus Sayana by the one and only S B Dikshit in his "History of Indian Astronomy" and "Chitra Janmapatri" is a part of the same.
Poor Dikshit had to stop a Sayana Panchanga that was started by him and some of his colleagues more than a hundred years back because it scared the nirayana loyalists!
I had been publishing "Shri Krishna Universal Ephemeris and Panchang" for about ten years and though it contained nirayana (of course, the "almighty" Lahiri Ayanamsha) as well Sayana longitudes of planets to please "Lahiri Jyotishis" but most of them boycotted it and I had to stop it ultimately!
Shri Darshaney Lokesh and Shri T V Sivaraman are now publishing their Sayana panchangas against all odds and I am trying my best that they should continue it so that maybe the general public will ultimately start following dharma as against nirayana Adharma, as pointed out by the "Report of Calendar Reform Committee".
The CRC had advised to switch over to the seasonal calendar, and they had hoped that the Hindus of Bharatavarsha would do so sooner than later (attachment "CRC Recommendation"), but in vain!
In any case, I have faith in Him and will continue to propagate the Vedic Calendar instead of the anti-Vedic nirayana one!
Never say die!
With regards and Jai Shri Ram!
A K Kaul
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विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)
Jul 11, 2020, 12:19:35 AM7/11/20
to bhAratIya-vidvat-pariShad भारतीय-विद्वत्परिषद्
On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 10:55 PM venkat veeraraghavan <vvenk...@gmail.com> wrote:
Sir this is not about you respecting my views, but about you respecting your own views.It worries me when a person does not have consistency in their arguments and synchronisation with their core beliefs.1. If you are very sure based on the infallible information provided in https://www.britannica.com/topic/Homo-sapiens-sapiens why this agenda to fix the "right" date for Shri Rama Navami?2. There is a clear contradiction in your second statement that goes against your belief that Valmiki could not have recorded the heavens on Rama's date etc.
I am not Mr Kaul, but writing my answer anyway:
I believe that the scientific theories about the origin of our species is pretty accurate (far more so than other alternatives). I take it that you are averse to such theories?
rAma may be part historical, part myth - but whatever the proportion, the rAmAyaNa is a divine work, rAma is an avatAra, and we still love and care about him - hence we want to celebrate his festival at the most aesthetically appropriate time; we want his mandir in the place of the demolished rAxasAlaya etc.. It is a more matter of sentiment than fact.
A K Kaul
Jul 11, 2020, 5:01:20 AM7/11/20
to Bharatiya Vidvat parishad
Dear Shri Venkatesh Murthy,
Jai Shri Ram!
<
I mean when the Surya Siddhanta was being used in ancient times the Ayanamsha was small. Now the difference between Sayana and Nirayana is 22 days but in those days it was a few days only. Therefore there was no problem if the festivals were late by a few days and on or close to the correct Nakshatras.>
We are again back to square one!
As per Triprashnadhikara, shlokas 9-11 of the SS, the SS (oscillating!) Ayanamsha was zero in 498 CE. Lahiri Ayanamsha zero year was 285 CE. Munjal advised to add one arc minute to mean longitudes from Shaka 444 to make the "nirayana" longitudes Sayana---actually to make the incorrect longitudes of the SS and Aryabhatiya etc. correct!
Here the crux of the argument is as to what type of Rashichakra, if any at all, was being used at the time of the Incarnation of Bhagwan Krishna or Bhagwan Ram!
1. In the first case, Dr. B V Raman has on pages 17 to 19 of his "Notable Horoscopes" claimed that all the information about the birth nakshatra and timing etc. of Bhgwan Krishna he had obtained from Srimad Bhagavata, Shri Vishnu Purana and Harivamsha!
Now the million dollar question is that all these scriptures, without exception, talk in one voice that a tropical Rashichakra is to be used for all purposes!
Attachments "VP Rashis-1"," Bhagavata-1", "Mahabharata-Vishuva".
2, The following excerpts from Srimad Bhagavata and Vamana Purana etc. also prove that Ashvini, Bharni etc. nakshatras, of equal divisions also were clubbed with so called sayana Rashis
Srimad Bhagavata 5/22/5-7 has said:
अथ स एष आत्मा लोकानां द्यावा पृथिव्योरन्तरेण नभोवलयस्य कालचक्रगतो द्वादशमासान् भुङ्क्ते राशि संज्ञान सम्वत्सरावयवान् मासः पक्षद्वयं दिवा नक्तं चेति सपादार्क्षद्वयमुपदिशन्ति यावता शष्ठमंशं भुञ्जीत स वै ऋतुरित्युपदिश्यते संवत्सरावयवः |5|
"The sun-god, who is the soul of the worlds, mounted on the wheel of time, which is poised in the upper air, midway between earth and heaven, passes through the twelve months that make up the year and are known by he names of different zodiacal signs like Mesha, Vrisha etc. The month consists of two fortnights the dark and the bright, according to the lunar reckoning. It is one day and one night (for the manes). And in the course of one month the sun transits the space occupied by two constellations (nakshatras) and a quarter. The period he takes to traverse one sixth of the length of the zodiac is called a season, another division of the year."
अथ च यावतार्धेन नभोवीथ्यां प्रचरति तं कालमयनमाचक्षते |6|
"The time the sun takes to traverse one-half of the zodiacal belt is called an 'ayana'."
अथ च यावन्नभोमण्डलं सह द्यावापृथिव्योर्मन्डलाभ्यां कार्त्स्न्येन् स ह् भुञ्जीत तं कालं संवत्सरं परिवत्सरमिदावत्सरम् अनुवत्सरमिति भानोर्मान्द्यशैघ्र्य सम गतिभिः समामनन्ति |7|
"The period that he takes to make a circuit of the entire firmament, between earth and heaven, is called by different names, 'samvatsara', 'parivatsara', 'ida-vatsara', 'anuvatsara', and 'vatsara', to denote the reckoning of the period in different ways according as it takes into account the acceleration, retardation and even movement of the sun's transit."(Translation by K Ragunathan, Vigneshwar Publishing House, Madras/Bangalore)
The same thing has been explained in detail in the Vamana Purana 5/34 (Gita Press edition):
आदित्यंशश्च पुष्यं च आश्लेषा शशिनो गृहं| राशिः कर्कटको नाम पार्श्वे मख विनाशिनः ||
"The last quarter of Punarvasu, entire Pushya and Ashlesha nakshatra are part of Karkata Rashi". The same Vamana Purana has said in 16/12
ततो दिवाकरो राशिं संप्रयाति च कर्कटम् | ततो अमराणां रजनी भवति दक्षिनायणं||
"After that the sun enters Karkata Rashi. That is the start of Dakshinayana (Summer Solstice) known as the night of gods".
So here also the nakshatras have been clubbed with tropical months and rashis!
Even in this twenty first century, the Karkata Rashi is said to be formed by the same nakshatras viz. a quarter of Punarvasu, whole Pushya and Ashlesha nakshatra, but then unfortunately, without any rhyme or reason, it is de-linked from Dakshinayana, against the injunctions of all the Puranas and shastras!
Thus when the same Vamana Purana says in 5/40:
उत्तरांशास्त्रयो ऋक्षं श्रवणं मकरो मुने धनिष्ठार्धं शनिक्षेत्रं ... i.e.
"O Seer, three quarters of Uttarashadha, complete Shravana nakshatra and two quarters of Dhanishtha comprise Makara Rashi", it means naturally that the Makara Rashi of Vamana Purana is also nothing but the start of the six months of Uttarayana, i.e. Makar Samkranti has to be the shortest day of the year!
*******************************************************************************************************
In a nutshell, the horoscope of Bhagwan Krishna that is floating around as per Ramana Rashichakra or Lairi Rashichakra etc. is really niraadhaar, since the source of information about the date of Incarnation of Bhagwan Krishna have talked of nothing but a seasonal Rashichakra, with which the 27 equal nakshatras have been clubbed!
So if it must be Rohini-Ashtami of Shravana Krishna Paksha for Janmashtami, it has to be seasonal Shravana Krishna Paksha coupled with the equal division of 27 nakshatras subservient to tropical Rashichakra, as advised by the Bhagavata Purana, Vishnu Purana or even the Mahabharata!
Hope you nobody will claim that Bhagavata, Vishnu Purana and the Mahabharata also have been composed by some Western authors!
As such, we must immediately switch over to the real Vedic, Pauranic and siddhantic calendar instead of to niraadhar niraayana!
शुभस्य शीघ्रम्
With regards and Jai Shri Ram!
A K Kaul
On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 9:27 PM Venkatesh Murthy <vmur...@gmail.com> wrote:
Namaste Sri Kaulji
On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 12:12 AM A K Kaul <jyot...@gmail.com> wrote:Deat Shri Venkatesh Mutthi,Jai Shri Ram!Do you mean to say that Ayanamsha was negligible--virtually zero---right from the time of Maharshi Valmiki through Bhishma Nirvana and the Vedanga Jyotish and then Surya Siddhanta and then Bhaskaracharya and then Acharya Sayana and then Ranganatha and then Pandit Sudhakar Dwivedi and so on!I mean when the Surya Siddhanta was being used in ancient times the Ayanamsha was small. Now the difference between Sayana and Nirayana is 22 days but in those days it was a few days only. Therefore there was no problem if the festivals were late by a few days and on or close to the correct Nakshatras.
And it has become unmanageable now, thanks to "almighty" Lahiri!Well, I just give up and rest my discussion here!With regards and Jai Shri Ram!
A K Kaul
The Nirayana Sidereal calendar gives importance to Nakshatras based luni solar calendar.If you depart away from Nakshatras you will celebrate Rama Navami not in Ardra or Punarvasu or Mrugasira but in Revati or Purva Bhadra. That is a tragedy.On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 7:44 PM विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki) <vishvas...@gmail.com> wrote:--On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 6:48 PM A K Kaul <jyot...@gmail.com> wrote:The parting short is that those claiming that they are celebrating festivals as per "aarsha Siddhanta" viz. the Surya Siddhanta are celebrating all the festivals on wrong days---even the reverred Jagadgurus being no exception!--- since the SS has started the new lunar year from Madhu i.e. seasonal Chaitra and not Lahiri Chaitra!Good argument, of which the above is the crux. How do you infer that madhu necessarily means seasonal (rather than siderial) chaitra, though?
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venkat veeraraghavan
Jul 11, 2020, 6:01:32 AM7/11/20
to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्
Dear Shri Vishvas ji,
My contention is pretty simple:
If a person is pretty certain based on the gospel of britannica that Valmiki Bhagavan fudged the date of Rama or winged it as put in urban lingo, what is the point of running a campaign for the "correct" celebration of festivals etc?
Sentiment? No one runs campaigns based on sentiment.
There are many people on this list who wish to model the intangibles mentioned in shastra. While I may not agree with them, I understand their motivations and where they are coming from.
Now let me address the other points you raise:
"
I believe that the scientific theories about the origin of our species is pretty accurate (far more so than other alternatives). I take it that you are averse to such theories?
"
>> Again this is a belief system.
A deluge of data points does not indicate accuracy or 20-20 vision.
Data is only as good as the people who collect it and are you really sure the people who collect data and those who fund such efforts are not inherently prejudiced and investing in a certain narrative?
A scientific theory is just that a speculative schema based on selected data points of what might have been. How do you know all data points observed have been considered without a selective purge?
One of the attention span poor, data/sensory overloaded lives we lead is that there are limits on the amount of time we can spend in doing due diligence.
What alternatives did you have in mind?
"
I take it that you are averse to such theories?
"
>> Oh no. I am not averse. Merely amused.
"
rAma may be part historical, part myth - but whatever the proportion, the rAmAyaNa is a divine work, rAma is an avatAra,
"
>> Within one sentence you move from "may be part....part myth" to "is an avatara". I understand a certain amount of agnostisicm is natural without personal experience, so there is very little value in discussing this in such a forum.
The reasonable course for me is to say that one has shraddha and trusts in Valmiki as one trusts in one's mother.
After all DNA tests have been available since the last 30 years.
Why not also make our mothers take a DNA test to check if they were telling us the truth about our parentage?
Science also believes that a human cannot survive without food for more than 3 days and the current official record is 40 days or so. Prahlad Jani or Ram Bahadur Bomjan or Giri Bala are unexplainable in the light of what science considers AXIOM. You know axioms are fundamental immutable laws of a system and if changed all the speculation downstream gets flushed down the rabbit hole.
Science tells you an organic body cannot survive in fire.
I have seen with my eyes within a distance of 1 feet an 80 year old man rolling on the blazing flames of a 5x5 sqft homa kunda, with no ill effect whatsoever.
I was getting dehydrated very fast despite being in better physical shape and less than half his age.
I have not seen any of the keyboard warriors replicate such a proof of agni stambhana.
I can go on, but I guess you get my point.
And yes.
If the choice is Valmiki or some snob of a "scientist"
I will choose Valmiki everytime!
Not because I am sentimental, but because that is what my life experiences in the groves of academia and on the road have taught me.
"
hence we want to celebrate his festival at the most aesthetically appropriate time; we want his mandir in the place of the demolished rAxasAlaya etc.. It is a more matter of sentiment than fact.
"
>>Agree with the right time for Ram Navami and the temple, but disagree that this should be on the basis of sentiment alone.
Fact changes based on the individuals adhikara and state of evolution.
What may be fact for Prahlad Jani might be mythical for the two of us.
But where we differ is in the way we choose to deal with what is not within the ambit of our personal experience.
Regards,
Venkat
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Aditya Raghunath
Jul 11, 2020, 6:39:13 AM7/11/20
to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्
Dear Scholars,
Apologies for wading into the debate, however I've some basic question here. There are many arguments about celebrating Ram Navami, Krishna Janmashtami based on tithis/nakshatras. However, was there any precedence of celebrating these festivals in ancient times. Does Mahabharata or Vishnu puraana talks about celebrating these festivals. Are these festivals not of recent origin and have come out more because of faith/devotion/tradition rather than defined by shastras.
I'm not a subject matter expert here, so please treat this comment accordingly.
Pranaams
Aditya
On Thursday, 25 June 2020 05:24:17 UTC+1, विश्वासो वासुकेयः wrote:
(I don't have AK Kaul's email id - if someone does please cc him.)
I am collecting vAkya-panchAnga errors such the below recent one in my notes at https://vvasuki.github.io/saMskAra/jyotisham/history/errors/ :- June 21 2020 was a special day - it was the solstice day, there was an annular solar eclipse visible from India (with peak at 11:47:35 am IST), and it naturally was amAvAsyA until 11:47:35 am IST. vAkya-panchAnga-s had obvious errors with regards to sun-moon conjunction (and consequently eclipse and end of amAvAsyA) - so tithi junction was till 12:30 or so. Some ritualists simply followed pop culture and used more accurate dRk-panchAnga-s for eclipse observances; while following vAkya-panchanga regarding parva-rituals! Such inconsistency! So, they incorrectly conducted sthAlIpAka the following day. (Not to mention, they must have continued saying "uttarAyaNe" in their sankalpa-s as well.)
Besides the above and the like (wrong conjunctions involving other graha-s like budha, guru etc..), what other classes of errors do vAkya-panchAnga-s make?
A K Kaul
Jul 11, 2020, 6:59:21 AM7/11/20
to Bharatiya Vidvat parishad
Dear Shri Radhakrishna Warrier,
Jai Shri Ram!
<My question is about pre-modern Indian astronomers following astronomical systems based on different ancient Indian astronomical works. Could they, and did they predict correctly
astronomical events like lunar and solar eclipses, conjunctions of heavenly bodies, etc.? Are there records of these astronomers predicting these events correctly?>
1. If even a single event like eclipse, Saturn tormenting Rohini, Mars retrograde in Magha and so on (attachment Mahabharata bh-graha-yutih) had been based on astronomy the date of the Mahabharata war could have been arrived at least about a couple of centuries back when modern astronomical works like Newcomb's Tables of the Sun, Lunar Tables of Brown or Ross corrections for Mars and Tables of Planetary longitudes etc. had been created!
But even after more than two centuries of modern astronomy and even with the latest satellite algorithms from JPL/NASA and tempting software like Planetarium, Stellarium, Swiss Ephemeris, Astrolog and what not we have not progressed even by a single inch in that direction!
Similarly we are still wondering whether the Mahabharata war took place in the early centuries of the first millennium BCE or in 5561 BCE!
2. Similarly, if the planetary position of Bhagwan Ram's horoscope had been the real ones, His date of birth would have been arrived at several decades back.
On the other hand, if we are told that Bhagwan Ram had ruled for 11000 years we feel at a loss as to how to react to such a statements!
Similarly, if the same Valmiki Ramayana tells us that after having ruled for sixty thousand years, soothsayers were telling Dashrath अवष्टब्धँ च मे नक्षत्रँ दारुणैर्ग्रहै and so on we really get confused as to how and when could that have happened!
3. Then again, the most adored astronomical work of india viz. the Surya Siddhanta, claims that it was revealed to Maya Mahasura by none other than Surya Bhagwan Himself, that too a couple of million years back, which means the planetary longitudes obtained from that work should have been an envy of today's JPL/NASA, but I am sorry to say that it has created the worst possible problems for the credulous Hindu majority of Bharatvarsh because it's longitudes are not correct for any year except for Shaka 444 and may be a century plus or minus to the same at the most!
And out of our श्रद्धा (reverence) for Surya Bhagwan we never questioned it's credentials!
4. Leave alone the "Maya Mahasura" , "Surya Bhagwan" and Aryabhata of yore, as late as early twentieth century, the redoubtable siddhantic Indian astronomer viz. Chandrashekhar Samant also known as Pathani Samant trashed Aryabhata's statements that the earth was rotating on its axis!
Galelio of Galilei is supposed to have faced "Inquisition" from the "Church" in the sixteenth century for believing the earth revolved round the sun and if Pathania Samant had it within his powers he also would have launched a similar Inquisition about Aryabhata.
It is very interesting to know as to why Pathani Samant chided Aryabhata! For the simple reason that his statement was in conflict with the Surya Siddhanta and the Puranas!
All this will be clear from the attachments SD1, SD2 and so on!
In fact, even today an institution like the world famous Banaras Hindu University is publishing its Vishva Panchang based on the Makaranda/Surya Siddhanta and boasting to the whole world as to how modern it is! But at the same time, it is getting the details for eclipses etc. from PAC, Kolkatta!
Then we have some Sampradayas of revered Jagadgurus also sailing in the same boat!
It leaves me very sad, really, to have to express such unpleasant truths.
And that is why I am unable to reconcile with the admonishment of the Law giver Manu
सत्यँ ब्रूयात् प्रियँ ब्रूयात् न ब्रूयात् सत्यमप्रियँ। असत्यँ च प्रियँ न ब्रूयात्, एष धर्मः सनातनः।।
With kind regards and Jai Shri Ram!
A K Kaul
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A K Kaul
Jul 11, 2020, 11:01:33 AM7/11/20
to Bharatiya Vidvat parishad
Shri Vishvas Vasuki ji,
Jai Shri Ram!
<
Of course, I read your quote (as should have been clear from my response). Where does it say or even suggest that a person following nirayana calendar for his daily life will not get moxa? It does not. Whatever his calendrical belief, the brahmavettA gets this gati.>
We are supposed to celebrate festivals and muhurtas as per certain criteria. Those criteria are decided/fixed as per the canons of scriptures.
Since no scripture has advised to celebrate any nirayana sankranti, much less "almighty" Lahiri Sankranti, which we are doing we are committing adharma.
The Gita has said in
अधर्मम् धर्ममिति या मन्यते तमसा वृता। सर्वार्थिन्विपरीतान्श्च बुद्धिः सा पार्थ तामसी |
With regards and Jai Shri Ram!
A K Kaul
On Mon, 6 Jul 2020, 07:19 विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki), <vishvas...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Jul 5, 2020 at 10:09 PM A K Kaul <jyot...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Shri Vishvas Vasuki,Jai Shri Ram!
<Nirayana years make doubtful even the moksha (liberation) of its followers:
So much masaala :-) Your quote makes no such suggestion.>It appears you have missed the quoteOf course, I read your quote (as should have been clear from my response). Where does it say or even suggest that a person following nirayana calendar for his daily life will not get moxa? It does not. Whatever his calendrical belief, the brahmavettA gets this gati.
<To sum up, the new solar year that we are supposed to celebrate around April 14/15 every year is not related to any of the four cardinal points viz. the two equinoxes and two solstices. Nor is it related to any season. All it is related to is the "almighty" Lahiri Ayanamsha!So it is anything but Vedic!Nor is it Pauranic!Nor is it Siddhantic!
Fine, but you still haven't shown why it is not sideria>2. What do you mean by "sidereal" and how do you prove that the "Lahiri" Mesha Samkranti of April 14/15, 2021 will be sidereal?. Pushya-Paksha Mesha Samkranti, Ramana Mesha Samkranti, Surya Siddhanta Mesha Samkranti, Vakya-Panchanga etc. Mesha Samkrantis of 2021 will not be at one and the same time as "Lahiri" Mesha Samkranti. Will all those Mesha Samkrantis also be sidereal? If so, how? If not why and how?Siderial means a star-based division of the ecliptic circle. (In contrast, tropical means division with reference to the equinoctial colure.) Whatever the ayanAMsha offset, they're all siderial. What was your definition when you claimed that rAShTriya panchanga was not siderial??"1. Would you be kind enough to quote even as single mantra from the Vedic lore, a single shloka from any of the Puranas or a single shloka from any siddhanta which has advised us to celebrate a "Mesha Samkranti" when the days and nights or not equal." - This is not relevant to my question at all; but ALL 12 sankrAnti-s are to be celebrated according to shAstra-s (you should dig up references from a work such as nirNaya sindhu yourself.) It's just that this sankrAnti is not same as ayanArambha.
With regards and Jai Shri Ram!A K Kaul
On Sun, Jul 5, 2020 at 9:12 PM विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki) <vishvas...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Jul 5, 2020 at 5:15 PM A K Kaul <jyot...@gmail.com> wrote:Nirayana years make doubtful even the moksha (liberation) of its followers:
So much masaala :-) Your quote makes no such suggestion.
Nirayana is really niraadhaar!To sum up, the new solar year that we are supposed to celebrate around April 14/15 every year is not related to any of the four cardinal points viz. the two equinoxes and two solstices. Nor is it related to any season. All it is related to is the "almighty" Lahiri Ayanamsha!So it is anything but Vedic!Nor is it Pauranic!Nor is it Siddhantic!
Fine, but you still haven't shown why it is not siderial.
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A K Kaul
Jul 11, 2020, 12:01:31 PM7/11/20
to Bharatiya Vidvat parishad
Dear Shri Venkat Veeraraghavan,
Jai Shri Ram!
<Sir this is not about you respecting my views, but about you respecting your own views.
It worries me when a person does not have consistency in their arguments and synchronisation with their core beliefs.>
I am quoting below my original mail to which you have responded with the above comments:
Quote
< And please understand Rama lived in Tretha Yuga and the Yuga calculations throw the date much much before the date you have quoted.>
As per Aryabhata, Tretayuga ended 2020+3101 (years of Kaliyuga) + 1080000 years of Dwapara Yuga i.e. 1085121 years back.
According to the Surya Siddhanta, Tretayuga ended 2020+3101 (years of Kaliyuga) + 864000 years of Dwaparayuga i.e. 869121 years back.
But the earliest date of "Rama Ravana Yuddha" claimed by present scholars is 12209 BCE as per Nilesh Oak, 7323 BCE as year of Incarnation as per late Dr. P V Vartak and January 14, 5114 BCE as per late Pushkar Bhatnagar!
In any case, your view that Bhagwan Ram had incarnated either about 1085000 or about 869000 years back is in agreement with the Pauranic lore that the yugas have very long duration. My grandfather, my father and even I myself had a similar view till a few decades back .
The Valmiki Ramayana that we have around these days is supposed to have been "compiled" by the same Maharshi Valmiki who was a contemporary of Bhagwan Ram!
Unquote
1. Now that we have two systems of yugas, one as per Aryabhata and the other as per the Surya Siddhanta, with different durations of yugas, which means Bhagwan Ram could have Incarnated about 869000 years back as per the Surya Siddhanta but about 1085000 years as per Aryabhata!
Which yuga system do you believe and why?
2. As per Aryabhata, to start with Kaliyuga started at the midnight of February 17/18, 3102 BCE, but then he "recreated" it just within six hours at 6-00 am (Mean Ujjain Time) of February 18, 3102 BCE.
When did the Kaliyuga start actually according to you and why?
3. Before taking up this issue of the year of Incarnation of Bhagwan Ram with me, you should take it up with Shri Nilesh Oak, who claims to have proved that there was Rama Ravana Yuddha in 12209 BCE, whereas I have never said anything regarding the actual year of Incarnation of Bhagwan Ram!
Similarly, there are innumerable scholars of Bharatvarsha who have "proved" it that the Mahabharata war took place much after 3102 BCE, i.e. after Kaliyuga had started!
That just is not possible as per our siddhantas and scriptures.
I think you should take up cudgels with one and all of them since they are trashing your yuga duration theory, though ou are not yourself sure as to whether to go by Aryabhata yugas or the SS yugas!!
Needless to mention here that all the scholars, including Shri Nilesh Oak, have impeccable credentials and none can be said to be pandering to the whims of some overseas scholar!
After you have taken up this issue with the respective scholars and convinced them of your yuga duration of hundreds of thousands of years, kindly let me know the outcome.
<1. If you are very sure based on the infallible information provided in https://www.britannica.com/topic/Homo-sapiens-sapiens why this agenda to fix the "right" date for Shri Rama Navami?
2. There is a clear contradiction in your second statement that goes against your belief that Valmiki could not have recorded the heavens on Rama's date etc.>
We can decide about this information being infallible or not only after you have convinced every scholar that Ramaa Ravana Yuddha had really taken place either 1085000 years back or 870000 years back, depending upon which yuga duration you believe!
Please also see to it that the Mahabharata war is supposed to have taken place in 5116 BCE as per Shri Nilesh Oak. That means about 2000 years before Kaliyuga had started! How could that be so?
Till then, with regards and Jai Shri Ram!
A K Kaul
On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 10:55 PM venkat veeraraghavan <vvenk...@gmail.com> wrote:
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venkat veeraraghavan
Jul 11, 2020, 12:36:26 PM7/11/20
to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्
Dear Shri Kaul ji,
I am frankly not interested in Shri Nilesh Oak's position since I think Dr. Manish Pandit has effectively disproved his MB war dates with quotes from the text.
I have explained my position in a different post and don't see any point repeating myself.
There has to be alignment between sankalpa and agenda.
This was clearly brought out by the case of Shri Madhusudhan Sarasvati writing Advaita Siddhi while desiring the darshan of Lord Krishna.
The great man had significant issues with mantra siddhi even after even 17 purascharanas.
I think there is a lesson in there for all of us.
Regards,
Venkat
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विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)
Jul 11, 2020, 9:49:55 PM7/11/20
to bhAratIya-vidvat-pariShad भारतीय-विद्वत्परिषद्
On Sat, Jul 11, 2020 at 3:31 PM venkat veeraraghavan <vvenk...@gmail.com> wrote:
If a person is pretty certain based on the gospel of britannica that Valmiki Bhagavan fudged the date of Rama or winged it as put in urban lingo, what is the point of running a campaign for the "correct" celebration of festivals etc?Sentiment? No one runs campaigns based on sentiment.
Oh really? Take your rAmAyaNa itself. What caused rAma to go to war against all odds to regain sItA just to tell her to go wherever she likes as soon as he got her? For that matter, what made him go to vanavAsa or stay there even after bharata begged him? A certain sentiment and pride.
That piece of paper on which 500 is written - what is its factual value? That of a very common piece of paper, next to nothing. Yet, a billion and more act as if it is a lot more valuable. Why? Because of the shared belief / agreement/ sentiment that it is worth that much.
That imaginary line near Galwan and Pangong Tso - what objective fact says "this side belongs to us, that to you"? Again, it is shared belief/ sentiment that makes us ready to go to war, kill and die for it.
That piece of cloth or that "national" song - but you get the point, I hope.
>> Within one sentence you move from "may be part....part myth" to "is an avatara". I understand a certain amount of agnostisicm is natural without personal experience, so there is very little value in discussing this in such a forum.
I am not agnostic to the existence of the Gods or the sacredness of our myths. Just because I say "myth", rather than "fact", I am not saying that is of inferior value and can be dismissed. A wise man said: "Newspapers have officially the right facts, but their interpretations are imaginary – and their choice of facts are arbitrary. They lie with right facts; a novelist says the truth with wrong facts."
Sorry to say that your understanding of myth as fact is childish and devalues it. Going by that, you likely don't even grok the true intended meanings it is intended to communicate about various matters (including the nature and role of the Gods, ritual and astronomical motifs).
Myths are divine, are “like the Gods”, but are obviously not to be taken literally. They contain both commonly understandable declarations about the Gods and mysteries only understood by the wise. It’s paradoxes and uncouth elements mean also to alert us that their words are veils.
The great sage Sallustus expressed this well:
“Myths have been used by inspired poets, by the best of philosophers, by those who established the mysteries, and by the Gods themselves in oracles.”
“(They) make the Gods well disposed to those who speak of them.”
“Now the myths represent the Gods themselves and the goodness of the Gods”
“(Myths are) subject always to the distinction of the speakable and the unspeakable, the revealed and the unrevealed, that which is clear and that which is hidden: since, just as the Gods have made the goods of sense common to all, but those of intellect only to the wise, so the myths state the existence of Gods to all, but who and what they are only to those who can understand. … Besides, to wish to teach the whole truth about the Gods to all produces contempt in the foolish, because they cannot understand, and lack of zeal in the good, whereas to conceal the truth by myths prevents the contempt of the foolish, and compels the good to practice philosophy.”
“They also represent the activities of the Gods. … Those who make the world are Zeus, Poseidon, and Hephaistos; those who animate it are Demeter, Hera, and Artemis; those who harmonize it are Apollo, Aphrodite, and Hermes; those who watch over it are Hestia, Athena, and Ares. One can see secret suggestions of this in their images. Apollo tunes a lyre; Athena is armed; Aphrodite is naked (because harmony creates beauty, and beauty in things seen is not covered).”
“But why have they put in the myths stories of adultery, robbery, father-binding, and all the other absurdity? Is not that perhaps a thing worthy of admiration, done so that by means of the visible absurdity the soul may immediately feel that the words are veils and believe the truth to be a mystery?”
“Of myths some are theological, some physical, some psychic, and again some material, and some mixed from these last two.”
“May these explanations of the myths find favour in the eyes of the Gods themselves and the souls of those who wrote the myths.”
“Myths have been used by inspired poets, by the best of philosophers, by those who established the mysteries, and by the Gods themselves in oracles.”
“(They) make the Gods well disposed to those who speak of them.”
“Now the myths represent the Gods themselves and the goodness of the Gods”
“(Myths are) subject always to the distinction of the speakable and the unspeakable, the revealed and the unrevealed, that which is clear and that which is hidden: since, just as the Gods have made the goods of sense common to all, but those of intellect only to the wise, so the myths state the existence of Gods to all, but who and what they are only to those who can understand. … Besides, to wish to teach the whole truth about the Gods to all produces contempt in the foolish, because they cannot understand, and lack of zeal in the good, whereas to conceal the truth by myths prevents the contempt of the foolish, and compels the good to practice philosophy.”
“They also represent the activities of the Gods. … Those who make the world are Zeus, Poseidon, and Hephaistos; those who animate it are Demeter, Hera, and Artemis; those who harmonize it are Apollo, Aphrodite, and Hermes; those who watch over it are Hestia, Athena, and Ares. One can see secret suggestions of this in their images. Apollo tunes a lyre; Athena is armed; Aphrodite is naked (because harmony creates beauty, and beauty in things seen is not covered).”
“But why have they put in the myths stories of adultery, robbery, father-binding, and all the other absurdity? Is not that perhaps a thing worthy of admiration, done so that by means of the visible absurdity the soul may immediately feel that the words are veils and believe the truth to be a mystery?”
“Of myths some are theological, some physical, some psychic, and again some material, and some mixed from these last two.”
“May these explanations of the myths find favour in the eyes of the Gods themselves and the souls of those who wrote the myths.”
The reasonable course for me is to say that one has shraddha and trusts in Valmiki as one trusts in one's mother.
That child-like pseudo-respect is better than brahma-dveSha, so my compliments on that. The reasonable course for those like me is to trust vAlmIki as a sage rather than as a mother and pay heed to what he intends to tell the wise in the language of myth. That is true respect.
After all DNA tests have been available since the last 30 years.Why not also make our mothers take a DNA test to check if they were telling us the truth about our parentage?
A classic rejoinder is: Why not send a spaceship to look for a teacup orbiting jupiter? The Gods have given some of us some buddhi and viveka, you see.
Science also believes that a human cannot survive without food for more than 3 days and the current official record is 40 days or so. Prahlad Jani or Ram Bahadur Bomjan or Giri Bala are unexplainable in the light of what science considers AXIOM.
This is a bogus claim. "Science" believes no such thing since it is contrary to observation.
You know axioms are fundamental immutable laws of a system and if changed all the speculation downstream gets flushed down the rabbit hole.Science tells you an organic body cannot survive in fire.I have seen with my eyes within a distance of 1 feet an 80 year old man rolling on the blazing flames of a 5x5 sqft homa kunda, with no ill effect whatsoever.
I suppose you are referring to the well known case of rAmbhAu svAmI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7ahejYgaVI ). Yes, there are people (religious and otherwise) who do extraordinary things - touch a live wire and not get electrocuted, resist heat better than others, stay in ice water for crazy amounts of time etc..
Anyway, if you think that science not being able to explain all such cases perfectly falsifies "science", your understanding of "science" is as childish as your understanding of "myth".
I was getting dehydrated very fast despite being in better physical shape and less than half his age.I have not seen any of the keyboard warriors replicate such a proof of agni stambhana.
So, why are you wasting time being keyboard warrior again?
I can go on, but I guess you get my point.And yes.If the choice is Valmiki or some snob of a "scientist" I will choose Valmiki everytime!
Since I am not an idiot, I will make my choice based on the circumstance and topic.
Not because I am sentimental, but because that is what my life experiences in the groves of academia and on the road have taught me.
Not because I haven't seen malpractices in "science"/ "academia" or "religious babaisms", but because that is fits my nature and is the superior course of action in perfect conformity with the views of my ancestors and sages.
venkat veeraraghavan
Jul 12, 2020, 6:30:02 AM7/12/20
to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्
Dear Shri Vishvas Ji-->
I would have let this slide if you had said this privately, but you chose otherwise, so here goes:
I merely answered many of the tropes you raised about sentimentalism vs 'fact'.
Nowhere have I dissed science, but I have merely questioned the motivations of 'scientists' and the people who fund them. When I used the word science believes etc I obviously meant its practitioners believe etc.....As a vidvan of Sanskrit I expected you to make the connection.... My mistake.
" Yes, there are people (religious and otherwise) who do extraordinary things "
Michael Phelps and Usain Bolt are extraordinary. Grisha Perelman and Terence Tao are extraordinary. They all have done extraordinary things.
The man who enters fire in his physical body without protection is beyond a scientific explanation as is the man/woman who can survive without food/water.
You are of course welcome to put your own spin on it. Whatever helps you sleep at night.
Since you are so high on myth as you call it you may also know that such narrative building is essential for mediocrity to thrive and survive.
I trained as an engineer and I realise the practical value of science enough to not be the fool you so conveniently assume me to be. I understand Science and myth creation well enough to not be condescended to.
It must be comforting to be the chosen one. I congratulate you on that. Manasataramgini would be proud.
And do yourself a favour. Ask yourself whether you really know someone well enough to imply they are an idiot for not sharing your world view.
I will just address the one relevant point to this thread and leave it at that.
Equating Galwan killing of 20 soldiers on a REAL LAC and a campaign for Rama Navami when the campaigner does not believe in the sacredness of Valmiki's words regarding shukla Chaitra Navami is a comparison only a person who lacks clarity or perspective can make.
Since you are clueless or atleast portray yourself that way, let me educate you:-->
There is mutual agreement between 2 nations on what an LAC is and they agree to respect the border. That is the fundamental basis of trust that governs that part of the relationship.
When this is violated it destroys trust which is the basis of any relationship.
This is NOT sentiment. It is realpolitik. You are conflating 7 PM TV and 24x7 TRPs (which do run on sentiment) with politics and asset management on the ground.
The 500 rupee note and the stock price again is NOT sentiment.
It is a shared TRUST between demand and supply 'actors' governed by a third party (Government or Math/Software in the case of Crypto ).
Sentiment can make stock prices fluctuate but without sound fundamentals and TRUST no company can survive in the stock market.
You really should pay attention to first principles.
It makes sure you don't say something vacuously inane downstream...and that too publicly.
Let us assume Valmiki did fudge facts or was as clueless as you assume Him to be. So predicated on that assumption why drive a campaign for the "right" Ramanavami?
Since you are so high on SHARED sentiment,
Did the people ask for it?
Kind Regards,
Venkat
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विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)
Jul 12, 2020, 7:10:20 AM7/12/20
to bhAratIya-vidvat-pariShad भारतीय-विद्वत्परिषद्
On Sun, Jul 12, 2020 at 4:00 PM venkat veeraraghavan <vvenk...@gmail.com> wrote:
There is mutual agreement between 2 nations on what an LAC is and they agree to respect the border. That is the fundamental basis of trust that governs that part of the relationship.
LOL. No there is no mutual agreement. The ambiguity is deliberate - even the soldiers are not given LAC maps (if such things exist, they're highly secretive and never shared) - they're just given GPS coordinates for their patrol. That's part of the reason for the periodic fights. For example, at Pangong Tso we claim till finger 8 & patrol(led) till finger 6, they claim till finger 2.
By contrast, LOC is (for the most part) a demarcated border, well understood and agreed upon by militaries on either side. Please put in some effort, and educate yourself.
The 500 rupee note and the stock price again is NOT sentiment.It is a shared TRUST between demand and supply 'actors' governed by a third party (Government or Math/Software in the case of Crypto ).Sentiment can make stock prices fluctuate but without sound fundamentals and TRUST no company can survive in the stock market.
Again LOL. Please tell yourself "No one runs campaigns based on sentiment" till you actually believe it.
Let us assume Valmiki did fudge facts or was as clueless as you assume Him to be.
Sorry - are you vAlmIki? I may have implied that you are clueless. vAlmIki, unlike you, was a wise sage.
So predicated on that assumption why drive a campaign for the "right" Ramanavami?
What campaign (not that it is a bad thing)? Exchanging opinions on the "right" time for festivals becomes a campaign?
Since you are so high on SHARED sentiment,Did the people ask for it?
Sentiments shared with sincere learned Astika people are necessarily different from sentiments shared by general bumpkins.
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A K Kaul
Jul 12, 2020, 9:53:05 AM7/12/20
to Bharatiya Vidvat parishad
Dear Shri Venkat Veeraraghavan,
Jai Shri Ram!
You had "court-marshalled" me for having a skeptical view about the long duration of the yugas in my original mail.
In response to the same, I asked you a simple question as to in which Tretayuga Bhagwan Ram had Incarnated according to you:
(1) whether it was Aryabhata Tretayuga which ended around 1087500 years back or
(2) the SS Tretayuga which ended only 870000 years back, and then again, whether
(3) you would go by the "mid-night-starting" Kaliyuga of Aryabhata or
(4) "the sunrise starting Kaliyuga" of the same Aryabhata and why!
I have yet to hear from you about the same!
<am frankly not interested in Shri Nilesh Oak's position since I think Dr. Manish Pandit has effectively disproved his MB war dates with quotes from the text.>
It is not about Shri Nilesh Oak or Dr. Manish Pandit! On the other hand, we have more than 60 per cent of the scholars who have concluded the date of the Mahabharata war to be much later than the date of Kaliyuga viz. 3102 BCE. It is only Shri Nilesh Oak who says it took place about 2000 years before Kaliyuga. In fact, he had followed in the footsteps of late Dr. P V Vartak, since he also had arrived at a similar conclusion i.e 5561 BCE!
Similarly, no scholar has attempted till date to calculate the year of Bhagwan Ram's Incarnation as per the long yuga theory. Shri Vinay Jha is no exception in spite of the fact that he is a very great Scholar of scriptures and a high class Surya Siddhanta software engineer.
In fact, we are just making a fool of ourselves since on the one hand, we believe in the yuga theory of the Surya Siddhanta and even Aryabhatiya, who claim to be able to calculate planetary longitudes for any epoch from the dawn of present Kalpa to its end, but when it comes to calculating the dates of any events whether past or present or future, we always say नासा शरणं गच्छामि
<There has to be alignment between sankalpa and agenda.>
The word "samkalpa" reminds me that we recite the daily "samkalpa" about Kalpa, Manvantara, Yuga, varsha etc. as per the Surya Siddhanta (instead of Aryabhatiya!!) but do not calculate even our horoscopes from the same work ! How ironical it is!
<This was clearly brought out by the case of Shri Madhusudhan Sarasvati writing Advaita Siddhi while desiring the darshan of Lord Krishna.
The great man had significant issues with mantra siddhi even after even 17 purascharanas.>
I do not have any mantra-sidhih nor am I trying for one! On the other hand, I keep on asking :
जनास्त्वत्पादाब्ज श्रवण मनन ध्यान निपुणाः | स्वयं ते निस्तीर्णाः न खलु करुणा तेषु करुणा ||
भवे लीने दीने मयि मनन हीने न करुणा | कथं नाथ ख्यातस्त्वामसि करुणा सागरिति ||
This is something like what Umar Khayyam, the famous Persian poet, mathematician and astronomer of 11th century Khorasan (now Iran) , is supposed to have said:
नेक किरदारों के सदके देदेना नजात | मेरे माबूद मैं असियान के लिए हूँ सौगात |
गिन के चन्द नेकियाँ नेकों मैं ही करलेना शुमार | यूँ अगर बद ऐमाली पे भी भख्शे तो है कौन सी बात |
(
असियान के सौगात = गुनाहों की पोटली ; बद ऐमाली = बुरे कर्म ) |
<I think there is a lesson in there for all of us.>
In an academic discussion, there is nothing personal! I have joined this august forum to learn from it and honestly, I have learnt a lot during my association with the same!
With regards and Jai Shri Ram!
A K Kaul
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G S S Murthy
Jul 12, 2020, 11:12:49 AM7/12/20
to bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Dr.Kaul, Your commitment to the cause you hold dear and your attitude towards the discussions are admirable, although I do not follow much of the discussion. I would be obliged if you could give an English translation of Omar Khayyam's verse you have quoted.
Thanks and regards,
Murthy
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venkat veeraraghavan
Jul 12, 2020, 11:13:56 AM7/12/20
to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्
Dear Shri Kaul ji,
I have NOT court marshalled you here.
This episode would have had a one post quick death if you had just acknowledged the discrepancy and moved on.
Instead someone else stepped in and made it a spectacle.
I actually have sympathy for your agenda and think that you deserve a debate with knowledgeable people in this forum (this does not include me.) since this is an important issue that needs to be fixed (if at all).
The only worry is something I have elaborated on. Kindly give it due thought since I believe your assumptions detract from and hurt your agenda.
I hope you can get traction with the people that matter.
Kind Regards,
Venkat
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