What is the meaning of these Shlokas by Sushrut?

[Rishi Goswami]

Haraye namah.
Namo Vidvadbhyah.
I wanted to know if there is any mention of Homosexuality in Scriptures? So I found this but couldn't grasp it properly. I couldn't understand everything.
What is the meaning of these shlokas?
इर्ष्याषण्डादिलक्षणं सुश्रु-तोक्तम्। सुश्रुते तु नपुंसकोत्पत्तिकारणसहितास्तद्भेदाअन्यथा दर्शिता यथा
“पित्रोरत्यल्पवीजत्वादासेक्यः पुरुषो भवेत्। स शुक्रंप्राश्य लभते ध्वजोच्छ्रायमसंशयम्। यः पूतियोनौजायेत स सौगन्धिकसंज्ञितः। स योनिशेफसोर्गन्धमा-घ्राय लभते बलम्। स्वे गुदेऽब्रह्मचर्य्याद्यः स्त्रीषु पुं-[Page2346-a+ 38] वत् प्रवर्त्तते। कुम्भीकः स च विज्ञेय ईर्ष्यकं शृणुचापरम्। दृष्ट्वा व्यवायमन्येषां व्यवाये यः प्रवर्त्तते। ईर्व्यकः स च विज्ञयः षण्डकं शृणु पञ्चमम्। यो भा-र्य्यायामृतौ मोहादङ्गनेव प्रवर्त्तते। ततः स्त्रीचेष्टिताकारोजायते षण्डसंज्ञितः। ऋतौ पुरुषवद्वापि प्रवर्त्तेताङ्गनायदि। तत्र कन्या यदि भवेत् सा भवेन्नरचेष्टिता। आसेक्यश्च सुगन्धी च कुम्भीकश्चेर्ष्यकस्तथा। सरेतस-स्त्वमी ज्ञेया अशुक्रः षण्डसंज्ञितः। अनया विप्रकृत्या तुतेषां शुक्रवहाः सिराः। हर्षात् स्पुटत्वमायान्ति ध्व-जोच्छ्रायस्ततो भवेत्”।

[Dr.BVK Sastry(G-MAIL)]

Namaste

Please permit me to voice a few concerns on the nature of such questions on a public forum and out of context quoting traditional texts, seeking a link to sexual behavior and temperament.  The issue raised is  partial aspect of larger question debated in the text ;   the text passage seems to be drawn out of context. (I would have appreciated if the quote below carried the 'Adhyaya reference and heading and context of discussion').

Concern -1: Why drag in 'homosexuality' debate on a public forum where majority of the scholars seem to be experts in tradition and language ? Is it a priority issue for research ? And even if it be so, can an Ayurveda practitioner make counseling recommendations the way the text suggests ??

Concern -2: If the quoted section is needing an explanation from the perspective of 'Homo sexuality', the  relevant comparative passage if any from ' Kaama -Shaastra' should have been looked at first,  before looking in to 'Ayur-Veda' pointing to the birth of a person with a 'disorientation of sexual temperament, incapable of  physical act and pervert means for overcoming the syndrome called ED ! How the parental sexuality leads to the  ' Psycho-Physiological Temperament and sexual orientation of progeny, the recommended treatment to facilitate such persons to enable them have the pleasure of  physical act through sexual union' are clearly a specialist discipline even in medicine !? Does the forum need this elaboration?

Concern -3: If shopping for 'flowers' is done in  a street where 'stones' are sold, one cannot complain for lack of good smell. The quoted passage from 'Ayurveda' work provides the following information:

a) The features of individuals with several kinds of  sexual disorientation,  inability,  disability, perversion and aberration.

b) Ayurvedic explanation on how an 'impotent male' is born ( like low sperm count...).  And Ayurvedic remedial measure to make such a person virile, physically fit

   for a sexual union and  medical remedies to 'make the person potent to get a child'.

c) The text also points to some of the perfumes/ smells/acts  that cause a ' emotional invigorating stimulation' resulting in Viagra kind of effects to improve blood circulation and   to 'overcome the temporary ED symptom. The details listed in the text is a reflection on the diversity of social perversions of sexuality, far beyond the ' homo-sexuality' or even that of LGBT models.   

Concern -4: Should one be happy that the ancient society in which Sushruta’s work came in to practice had all the perversions and disorientations of sexuality   OR proud that Ayurveda- acharyas ‘ observed and identified’ all these  human sexuality temperaments and suggested a counseling- medical correction ? way before modern Gyno-practice becomes a profession / Viagra becomes the largest advertised and globally selling ‘pill’ ? Or should one feel satisfied that Indian society was not exception to human frailty of ‘ Sex’, even if the reckoning were to be made from ‘ Indra as ‘ ahalyaa –jaara’? and treated by the ‘divine doctors of Ayurveda’? Should Ayurveda practitioners be worrying about Ginseng- Opium- Viagra rasayanas on the authority of Susruta more than educating about ‘Swastha-Vrutta-  Rutu Charyaa- Brahma Charyaa’ ?

Regards

BVK Sastry

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[Krishna Kashyap]

Namo vidhvadbhyah

To clarify what Rishi Goswamiji may be interested in = 

Rishi Goswami Ji's question is valid for some reasons:

In Semitic religions, any LGBT kind of activity is sinful and in fact, the punishment is "they should be killed". What are the views of Hindu Scriptures regarding this issue? seems to be a valid question and a research topic to me. Are Hindu Scriptures similar to them?

Further, Medical Research indicates information which is contrary to those Semitic scriptural views. Hence there is a huge reformation going on to change their views regarding such social aspects. 

Also, there is a debate on if LGBT tendencies are by nature or nurture? what do the Hindu scriptures say regarding this? Incidentally, Garbhopanishat indicates that it is natural and not a psychological disorder!

I am not an organizer. However, I wanted to clarify some people's views on this subject. This subject may be taboo to this group. I just wanted to share my views. sorry If I am offending anyone.

Obviously,  Dr. BVK shastriji rightly did mention that if this subject is drilled too deep, unnecessary and irrelevant information may pop up. Probably this may need some moderation.

Best Regards,

Krishna Kashyap

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[Dr.BVK Sastry(G-MAIL)]

Namaste Krishna Kashyap

 

1. Thanks for taking note of the ‘relevance and trending of debate’ on this post  . Probably the subject line should have been < Hinduism Views on LGBT- Homosexuality  >  and NOT  < What is the meaning of these Shlokas by Sushrut?   >.

 

2.  The issues of < Hinduism Views on LGBT- Homosexuality > .  

 

    -    in Current society are five  intersecting  disciplines and Nation specific Constitution –Culture issues:   Sociology, Psychology, Medicine, Law , Religion.

 

    -    in Traditional discourse of ‘Shaastra’ , they are ‘ Individual Specific Karma –Phala / Praarabdha -  (Praacheena karma balavaan munayo vadanti )’ .

 

The axioms, premises and end goals of ‘Shaastra  of Dharma and  Karma’  have very minimal overlap to make a ‘ Culturally meaningful interpretation’.  The home tradition can easily accept and live with  the birth of  many ‘ a-yonija’ personalities who become great through  ‘Yoga- Tapas- Swaadhyaaya- Kriyaa’, the ‘Socio-Cultural Sampradayas can not tolerate the repetition of same at the lower level.

 

3.  Within the current flow of ‘Culturally Constructed Sampradaya nishtataa- baddhata’ , there is a marked imbalance between  the theory and practice of four Purushartha Shaastras (=  Four Shaastras  of  Dharma Artha Kama Moksha).  This is  the narrative and discourse  of  three hundred about  Yoga-Samskrutham  set on an off course journey.

 

    The ‘ in house-justification’   popularly used to   validate, authenticate  and stamp and enforce the distortion / imbalance is   ‘ Secular Pseudo Vedanta’ promoted by many ‘ brand gurus’ using ‘colonial missionary translations and constructs’, cutting the root of ‘ Vyasa - Acharya Sampradaya’.

 

     The  ‘secular Pseudo Vedanta’  is weaved  on the  socio-religion constructed distortions of   ‘Yoga- Vedanta discourse tradition  in Samskrutham’  to ‘ dress it for its new avatar of ‘ Yoga on mat , Vedanta as  cyber chat and  Samskruth as social  chit-chat  language’.  Revival of Samskrutham is not  a revival of historic tribal religion language of a migrating community and prayer petition language of a faith-belief community  ’.  

 

     In short, when Yoga and Samskrutham (= Language of Yoga)  got corrupted,  the allied deliberations of Veda, Vedanta, Ayurveda , Jyotish, Karma-Kanda, Mantra .. everything took their hit and are falling  like a pack of cards.  Result is ‘looking for ‘ Kama- (Samaaja ) Shaastra issues’ in ‘ Ayurveda which is a (Upa-)Veda –Dharma  and Moksha Shaastra.  

 

 

Regards

BVK Sastry

Best Regards,

 

Krishna Kashyap

 

 

 

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[Shashi Joshi]

With all due respect to the feeling of members on this group, I do want to present my views.

Apologies up front if I am not able to communicate fully.

I understand that there are many motives for people to 'dig' into Sanskrit works for proving or disproving some pet theory of the moment. (Ref to did Rama eat meat thread or was there non-vegetariansim in Vedic times...)

But regarding this particular topic of Sushrut shlokas, I would say that even Shankaracharya debated on Kamashastra.

Kamasutra is not considered a taboo work. It deals with all topics under it very sincerely yet dispassionately, a rare feat on such a topic!

To know what Ayurveda says on such topics that are relevant today (may not be deemed fit for in person mixed age gathering), is very important.

Kamasutra deals not with medical aspects of mind (just desire part), but in today's medical field too we have study of this topic. Though not mainstream topic of discussion, it sure doesn't get stern scoldings.

Maybe the learned in this group can be more patient as well.

I, with all my respect for Rishis and shAstra, do look for - what all did our ancestors cover? What all interested their intelligence?

It is actually fascinating, eye-opening to read such things as well. Spirituality has been talked for ever and ever, with not much left to bring forth.

But what about things of this mortal world? Our rishis never shunned any topic, that is why we have scriptures on almost anything!

It is great, our strength.

Kamasutra comes with a warning as well - "Just because it is said here, doesn't mean it is sanctioned. A book on cookery may describe how to cook dog's meat, but that doesn't mean you should eat"

Apologies once again if I mis-communicated, since there is no mis-intention.

Thanks,

~ Shashi

Best Regards,

 

Krishna Kashyap

 

 

 

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

>I would say that even Shankaracharya debated on Kamashastra.

-- This hagiographical narrative is one of the most ridiculous ones occurring in such works. 

How on earth can any debate of an extraordinary meemaamsaka (who unfortunately has been depicted like a joker in one of the recent Telugu movies on S'ankaraachaarya ) and a prodigal reviver of Vedanta get digressed into an ubsolutely unrelated topic of 'practical experience of the contents of Kamasutra/Kamashastra' ?

These hagiographies sometimes! 

Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

[Venkatesh Murthy]

Namaste

In Mahabharata we see examples of Shikhandi and Arjuna also wearing female clothes and acting like female.

LGBT Themes in Hindu Mythology -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_themes_in_Hindu_mythology

On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 10:14 AM, Shashi Joshi <shas...@gmail.com> wrote:

--

Regards

 

-Venkatesh

[Shashi Joshi]

Nagaraj-ji,

Sorry for that example being mis-communicated.

No ill intention was meant.

Please ignore that one and read the rest of my post.

I don't know how to post emoji of kara-baddha-prarthanA

Thanks,

~ Shashi

[Nagaraj Paturi]

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 11:03 AM
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} What is the meaning of these Shlokas by Sushrut?

To: Shashi Joshi <shas...@gmail.com>

Sri / Srimati Shashi-ji,

My post was not against discussing the topic raised by the thread initiator. 

It is just limited to your mention of Shankaracharya's Parakaya pravesha narrative. 

I am not against discussing sex related matters as long as they are based on textual evidences. 

Sex as taboo is the influence of Victorian Ethics.

Warm regards,

Nagaraj

- 

[V Subrahmanian]

On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 12:29 AM, Krishna Kashyap <kkashy...@gmail.com> wrote:

Namo vidhvadbhyah

To clarify what Rishi Goswamiji may be interested in = 

Rishi Goswami Ji's question is valid for some reasons:

In Semitic religions, any LGBT kind of activity is sinful and in fact, the punishment is "they should be killed". What are the views of Hindu Scriptures regarding this issue? seems to be a valid question and a research topic to me. Are Hindu Scriptures similar to them?

Further, Medical Research indicates information which is contrary to those Semitic scriptural views. Hence there is a huge reformation going on to change their views regarding such social aspects. 

Also, there is a debate on if LGBT tendencies are by nature or nurture?

All tendencies, called vasana, is by nurture. What is nurtured, positive or negative, becomes one's nature.  The Upanishads, Bhagavadgita, etc. are quite clear about this. These verses, said to be from the Yoga vasishtha would sum it up:

शुभाशुभाभ्यां मार्गाभ्यां वहन्ती वासनासरित्। पौरुषेण प्रयत्नेन योजनीया शुभे पथि।।

अशुभेषु समाविष्टं शुभेष्वेवावतारय। स्वमनः पुरुषार्थेन बलेन बलिनां वर।।

द्रागभ्यासवशाद्याति यदा ते वासनोदयम्। तदाभ्यासस्य साफल्यं विद्धि त्वमरिमर्दन।।  

There is also the famous quote: 

 Watch your thoughts, for they become words. Watch your words, for they become actions. Watch your actions, for they become habits. Watch your habits, for they become your character. And watch your character, for it becomes your destiny.

The exhortation for the practice of shama, dama, etc. is based on the very principle that it is one's actions, nurturing, that makes one's nature.

regards

subrahmanian.v

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Sri Rishi-ji,

I don't think that the word 'scriptures' applies to works like those on Ayurveda. 

[Nagaraj Paturi]

 "Should one be happy that the ancient society in which Sushruta’s work came in to practice had all the perversions and disorientations of sexuality   OR proud that Ayurveda- acharyas ‘ observed and identified’ all these  human sexuality temperaments and suggested a counseling- medical correction ?"

     - Dr BVK Sastry-ji 

"perversions" may be considered politically incorrect in the present times. 

Yes, we definitely can be proud that our ancestors, our Ayurveda Acharyas covered such exhaustive range of medically relevant phenomena. 

[Shashi Joshi]

If everything was summed up as nurture only, then e.g. how did Prahlad come up in Hiranyakashipu's family - a total opposite to his father's given nurture.

Gotra won't have any meaning if nature/genetics didn't have a role to play.

Even in modern genetics, they talk of predisposition based on certain genes.

What would be of interest is if any sanskrit medical works talk about any kind of genetics, a bit quantifiable if possible. We do have enough qualitative references to gene or nature factor.

Thanks,
Shashi

[Dr.BVK Sastry(G-MAIL)]

Namaste Shashi Joshi

 

        Just to clarify  the points raised < there are many motives for people to 'dig' into Sanskrit works for proving or disproving some pet theory of the moment >

        And add to this  motivations   < Provoking, Harming > also.

 

       Some spend their time and energy  in mandirs and some in  Vegas. Their (Ishta) Kama –Dharma =  desires are not for public debate ! No one can stop a researcher from  ‘Swecchaa –Swaatantrya –Swaadhya’:: Freedom and licentious  self-Study and motivated  interpretation !  

 

1.    The two quests  related to ‘Sanskrit digging’  are differently motivated and find different end results.  The outcome may be to the liking or otherwise by factors of  personal cultural  sensitivity issues.

       The curios  quest cannot  be made to  cost  damage to the  structural integrity of discipline, being  quoted out of context using  selective quotes for  presentation.

 

2.    The ‘Shaastra kaaras motive’ in ‘ (Traditional Shaastra)  Sanskrit-resource-digging’  is to understand ‘Shaastra paddhati’ for a professional practice and ‘Abhyaasa- Phala’ for achieving a goal.

         It is not for historical curios analysis. What is the guidance from  the ‘Text – now ’  (Vartamane – Vyaavaharike) ?

-             In this case, Sushrutas Ayurveda text aimed to provide guidance for Vaidya practice for the goal of  Swasthya- Saukhya – Swastha  Rutu Charya  in life style for  prescription.

-             Therefore, Ayurveda becomes a Upa-Veda integrated to ‘Vedangas ( jyotish) and Veda- prayoga- parihara (Daiva vyapashraya). Here ‘Sanatana Dharma’ guides for ‘ Purushartha’.

 

   The ‘ Modern researchers motive’ in ‘ (Traditional Shaastra)  Sanskrit-resource-digging’  seems to be a curios  to understand ‘Poorva-abhyasa = past society/ people /community  practice’ as history of discipline and    

           Community practice of past.  ‘ Ayurveda -Abhyaasa- Phala’ becomes an alternate –complementary green low cost  hand maid of  Pharma- medicine. 

-              Sushrutas Ayurveda text’ study comes in a segmented way to pick partial eclipsed views and practices  of tradition and community  to target a smear campaign model ‘ Kettle calls  pot   black’.  

-             Ayurveda –Study is forcibly  disconnected from its original design, pedagogy , purpose, practice and language !    Academia and Media guides  ratings and ranting for ‘excitement through the blog post likes’.

   

3.        You have already answered your  defense on the question < But what about things of this mortal world? Our rishis never shunned any topic, that is why we have scriptures on almost anything! > 

            in your post :  

 

            < "Just because it is said here, doesn't mean it is sanctioned. A book on cookery may describe how to cook dog's meat, but that doesn't mean you should eat"  >.

      

4.        My two cents  addition and  extension from my side  for the ‘History Research Buffs, promoters  and defenders of this approach’ –

 

            <   "Just because it is deliberated in the text, it doesn't mean it was a historical social reality and carried a ‘Shaastra’ sanction. A prayaschitta mentioned for ‘ Gurutalpa-ga / maatru-gaami ’ (= sleeping with Guru’s wife / bed sharing with mother) in ‘Dharma Shaastra, Purana  ‘ may describe how to get rid of sin of sharing bed with Masters wife/ bed sharing  with mother ’ , but that doesn't mean ‘ that the society  permitted /practiced /  promoted such   acts  and then provided measures of  expatiation for the sin".  The < relevant   ( ?) >  passages cannot be used to make an ‘ anthropological construct and Indology research’ argument of ‘ relevant today for laws to regulate ‘ incestuous pornography’ marketed as  adult entertainment or  authority to  dispense legal verdict of ‘mantra- yajna – yoga –tapas pariharas’ as ‘  alternative  complementary supplementary punishment’.  

 

     Please explore the evolution, concepts  and history of civil and criminal justice legal discipline in many nations where ‘ religion got violated by regime’ . And of course ‘ Religious institutions and  leaders going down by ‘Dharma –Shaastra violation’.  Latest incident just costed Indian society a small sum exceeding 10,000 crores in the ‘ partial name of Sach’ ( Truth)!   OMG, Please pardon, if you can.

 

Regards

BVK Sastry

 

 

 

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Nagaraj Paturi
Sent: Friday, 5 January, 2018 10:30 AM
To: Bharatiya Vidvat parishad
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} What is the meaning of these Shlokas by Sushrut?

 

>I would say that even Shankaracharya debated on Kamashastra.

 

Thanks,

~ Shashi

 

Best Regards,

 

Krishna Kashyap

 

 

 

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

 

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

 

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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[Rishi Goswami]

Haraye namah
Namo vidvadbhyah
I apologize for my delay in reying due to no internet connection. I wanted to know what our Rishis have written in our scriptures. What I believe is anything if done with the right intent is Dharma. Killing is bad, even an ant but not a soldier for the nation. In case of Kaam(desire), when it becomes addiction is vaasana. Anything, not necessarily sexual desire. This is not for the intent to insult or cause any harm. I just was researching for myself on this topic, where on the net I came accross 16 types of Shandas(men with sexual inability, broadly termed as eunuchs). I searched for Irshyashanda where sushruta has written the following.

It's a public forum with highly experienced schollars, but I don't know where do I find anything in Kaamashastra or Ayurveda. I wanted to know what the Rishis may have experienced about it and what is the provision fir such men. What is the kartavya akartavya etc. Not to insult or demean anyone, but I want to know for myself the meaning of those shlokas.

I partially understand what's written but I'm not so mature ti get the whole meaning/tatparya. So I asked on this forum. I apologize again to the schollars who found it discourteous or ashishta. I have no intention to break maryada of respective schollars.
Thankyou
Rishi.

[Rishi Goswami]

Also, a valid question was raised about Shree Ram which I want to know.
Bhagwan Ram went kill a deer for Sitaji. Dashrathji also accidentally killed Shravnkumar intead of the deer. Same case with Pandu. Being from ksahtriya kulam, they are allowed to have anishiddha mansam. Does that mean Bhagwan Ram may have also been a nonvegetarian? I have no clue so I'm just asking. I'm not making an assertion.
Thankyou.
Rishi.

[Venkatesh Murthy]

Namaste

>Sex as taboo is the influence of Victorian Ethics.

The Noble attitude to sex equal to Vajapeya sacrifice is seen in the Brhadaranyaka Upanishad -

sa ha prajāpatir īkṣāṃ cakre -- hantāsmai pratiṣṭhāṃ kalpayānīti sa striyaṃ sasṛje |
tāṃ sṛṣṭvādha upāsta |
tasmāt striyam adha upāsīta |
sa etaṃ prāñcaṃ grāvāṇam ātmana eva samudapārayat |
tenainām abhyasṛjata || BrhUp_6,4.2 ||


tasyā vedir upasthaḥ |
lomāni barhiś |
carmādhiṣavaṇe |
samiddho madhyatas tau muṣkau |
sa yāvān ha vai vājapeyena yajamanasya loko bhavati tāvān asya loko bhavati |
ya evaṃ vidvān adhopahāsaṃ caraty āsāṃ strīṇāṃ sukṛtaṃ vṛṅkte |
atha ya idam avidvān adhopahāsaṃ caraty āsya striyaḥ sukṛtaṃ vṛñjate || BrhUp_6,4.3 ||

Westerners thought this was Vulgar. What a total misunderstanding.

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Regards

 

-Venkatesh

[Shashi Joshi]

Rishi ji,

This topic of Ram and meat eating, I brought up because all the threads on the net that ask this question are not interested in anything else of Ramayana. They just want to prove their own agenda with this topic. That becomes malintent. They say that if your own god Rama ate meat then what is wrong to do so now.

By that logic not just meat eating, all other things of that society should be brought back, like the varna ashram, prana jaye par vachana na jaye etc.

Please search for discussion on that thread separately.

My intent was not to bring up such topics but ro give examples of red herrings.

Thanks,
Shashi

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[Siddharth Wakankar]

I was reminded of the case of Ashleelataa against the Marathi book, Anangaranga of Kalyanamalla,edited by Gajanan Raghunath Mule of Karjat in early 1900s.It was dismissed by Chief Justice Mr.Brown,with the remark that,"Anangaranga gives an insight into the Ethics of Hindu Erotics". The blind followers of the British could not digest it.

Prof. Siddharth Y Wakankar.

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Thanks Sri Venkatesh Murthy-ji for a reminder of such wonderful references!

[Nagaraj Paturi]

> It was dismissed by Chief Justice Mr.Brown,with the remark that,"Anangaranga gives an insight into the Ethics of Hindu Erotics"

Gem of a judge in such a dumb ,milieu of  Victorian morality!

Presence of elders like you and your memory sharing is enough sir, for our historical understanding. 

[Rishi Goswami]

Yes Shashiji. Being a Ram bhakt myself, I won't indulge in kutark or shanka. It was just my jijnasa for that. Like the shloka, प्राणात्यये तथा श्राद्धे प्रोक्षितं द्बिजकाम्यया । देवान् पितॄन् समभ्यर्च्च्य खादन् मांसं न दोषभाक् ॥ says that one can eat khaadya maansam only. And it is only nishiddha for Brahmans. Other varnas are allowed. Based on this I asked my jijnasa about Shree Ram.
Thankyou.

[V Subrahmanian]

In the Vartika to the Brihadaranyaka Bhashya of Sureshwaracharya, we find this verse:

स्वत एव यतः पुंसां प्रवृत्तिः स्वार्थसिद्धये |

तत्रानुवादि शास्त्रं स्यान्निवृत्तावेव तन्मितिः || 

अपि वात्स्याननादीनां शास्त्राणामुक्तहेतुतः |

प्रामाण्यमविरुद्धं स्यादैकात्म्यज्ञानजन्मने || 

All shastras have, for their ultimate aim, nivrtti.  This is the purport of the above verse.

regards

subrahmanian.v

[Krishna Kashyap]

Namo vidhvadbhyah:

ǒपतूरेतोऽितǐरƠात्पुǽषो भवित । मातुः रेतोऽितǐरƠाǔ×Ƹयो भवÛ×युभयोबȸजतुãय×वाÛनपुंसको भवित । - garbhopanishad

 If the father’s seed is more potent, it becomes male; if the mother’s seed is stronger, it becomes female. If the seeds are equal, it becomes an intersexual (napu÷saka, neither male, nor female). 

this is the statement of garbhopanishad. Unfortunately the text is not showing up well on this browser.

summary - a napumsaka is not by nurture according to garbhopanishad.

that means the the issue of heterosexual thoughts or marriage etc does not occur to them by nature.  

if every thought we get is from nurture and nothing comes out nature, then genetics has no value. can we prove unequivocally that genetics has no value using Hindu Scriptures? this is my question.

that particular quote regarding "one should develop good thoughts" has an issue too. If we compare non- identical twins who have similar surroundings, will their thoughts be identical? Not true. genetics and hence Nature does play a part. 

पञ्चैतानि महाबाहो कारणानि निबोध मे |
साङ् ख्ये कृतान्ते प्रोक्तानि सिद्धये सर्वकर्मणाम् || 13||

अधिष्ठानं तथा कर्ता करणं च पृथग्विधम् |
विविधाश्च पृथक्चेष्टा दैवं चैवात्र पञ्चमम् || 14||

These verses of chapter 18 bhagavadgita indicate that there are 5 reasons for any action. adhistana is body and karta is jiva. actions or thoughts depend on the type of nervous system, body parts and capabilities etc, and also the individual who has karmic baggage, in addition to other reasons. One cannot say his body does not play any part regarding his thoughts. and thoughts do become actions.

Nature for a napumsaka is not the same as for others; and nature does affect the thoughts and actions of that person. One does not have a choice to choose ones'body or to become a napumsaka or heterosexual.

Obviously one has to develop good thoughts etc. but what is good for one is different for other based on body. What is acceptable to society etc may be different. 

Best Regards,

Krishna Kashyap

On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 9:54 PM, V Subrahmanian <v.subra...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 12:29 AM, Krishna Kashyap <kkashy...@gmail.com> wrote:

Namo vidhvadbhyah

Also, there is a debate on if LGBT tendencies are by nature or nurture?

[V Subrahmanian]

On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 7:04 PM, Krishna Kashyap <kkashy...@gmail.com> wrote:

Namo vidhvadbhyah:

ǒपतूरेतोऽितǐरƠात्पुǽषो भवित । मातुः रेतोऽितǐरƠाǔ×Ƹयो भवÛ×युभयोबȸजतुãय×वाÛनपुंसको भवित । - garbhopanishad

 If the father’s seed is more potent, it becomes male; if the mother’s seed is stronger, it becomes female. If the seeds are equal, it becomes an intersexual (napu÷saka, neither male, nor female). 

Why jiva A ends up in such a situation where the seeds are equal is not answered by nature. If that jiva has the required karma, prakriti puts him in such a situation as to have such a body/personality. 

regards

subrahmanian.v

 

[Krishna Kashyap]

namo vidvadbhyah:

Why jiva A ends up in such a situation where the seeds are equal is not answered by nature. If that jiva has the required karma, prakriti puts him in such a situation as to have such a body/personality. 

regards

subrahmanian.v

 

​Interesting information.

Again, did the first jiva come with a sharira or not? this goes back to vriksha beeja problem. which came first?.  this is same as the karma avidya anadi chakra. did karma come first or avidya? Hence Nature and Nurture issue is not easily solvable. 

​One can dismiss this and say all jivas were created equal very long time back and some jivas misbehaved and they ended up in wrong yonis and started doing wrong karmas - as indicated by this verse.

यथा सुदीप्तात् पावकात् विस्फुलिङ्गाः सहस्रषः प्रभवन्ते सरूपा:

 This is again a convenient logic used by some ​vedantins to remove any possible sin or discrimination on the part of the creator the Lord. However, then again the questions remain : 

why did Brahman create in the first place? He could have just been happy with himself or itself? these statements appear to give some views:

लोकवत्तु लीला कैवल्यं  - bramha sutras,

 which state this universe is a play of the lord.  further it says dont question this Leela since it is like questioning the play of a little kid, which builds a castle with sand and destroys it the next moment.  In essence, Brahman is a singularity and beyond all logic. Hence this problem is not something which can be answerable. Brahman is either not knowable at all (as per advaita) or cannot be known completely (as per visistadvaita and other schools). 

तत् विदितात् अधि - केन उपनिषत् . It is beyond all comprehension.

there are further controversies since "sristi" may be denied completely using maya theory. Let us not get into such details, since it is going to be a never ending tarka. again tarko aprathistanat api !!

Today, coming back to LGBT issues, our shastras can only indicate some aspects to it. 

The good news is that our shasthras do not discriminate LGBT to the extent other scriptures do- which could result in extremism of imposing laws that lead to stoning them to death or throwing them off buildings.  

[Achyut Karve]

Dear Scholars,

Is it necessary to ascribe intent to nature?

How can the part know the whole?

Is it not well known that laws of causation have no universality?  They only signify how many appreciates nature.

Are they therefore not referred to as efficient cause and not the real one?

Is it that the written word is the ultimate truth?

Should even the scriptures not be appreciated in their historical context as first steps in the evolution of human sensibilities?

With regards,

Achyut Karve

--

[Dr.BVK Sastry(G-MAIL)]

Namaste

On similar ' jijnyasaa' issues, I recall a piece of advice from my elders and share the same, for what it may be worth.

It was an amplification of two wisdom statements :
a) Na devacharitam charet : Do not blindly imitate the ways of Divine Avataras.
b) Devo bhootvaa , devam yajet : First Become , Then Be a 'Deva' and Then do the 'Deva- yajna'.

Yoga, as anushaasana is the path way to 'Become Deva'. What suits 'Tapas and Swadhyaaya' is the social charter of profession and lifestyle , food habits and practices. If one decides that one is a 'Brahmana' then the same needs to be established by Thought, action, deed .
It is not quoting text to justify the ' Ishta -Kaama-Charyaa' and taking shelter under the 'Deva-charita'.

Regards
BVK Sastry



-----Original Message-----
From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Rishi Goswami
Sent: Friday, 5 January, 2018 1:44 PM
To: भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} What is the meaning of these Shlokas by Sushrut?

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[V Subrahmanian]

On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 12:29 AM, Krishna Kashyap <kkashy...@gmail.com> wrote:

Namo vidhvadbhyah

To clarify what Rishi Goswamiji may be interested in = 

Rishi Goswami Ji's question is valid for some reasons:

In Semitic religions, any LGBT kind of activity is sinful and in fact, the punishment is "they should be killed". What are the views of Hindu Scriptures regarding this issue? seems to be a valid question and a research topic to me. Are Hindu Scriptures similar to them?

Further, Medical Research indicates information which is contrary to those Semitic scriptural views. Hence there is a huge reformation going on to change their views regarding such social aspects. 

Also, there is a debate on if LGBT tendencies are by nature or nurture? what do the Hindu scriptures say regarding this? Incidentally, Garbhopanishat indicates that it is natural and not a psychological disorder!

I am not an organizer. However, I wanted to clarify some people's views on this subject. This subject may be taboo to this group. I just wanted to share my views. sorry If I am offending anyone.

Obviously,  Dr. BVK shastriji rightly did mention that if this subject is drilled too deep, unnecessary and irrelevant information may pop up. Probably this may need some moderation.

Best Regards,

Krishna Kashyap

At least one reference,in the Bhagavadgita, that gives us a glimpse of how our scripture views the 'third' gender is: 

 क्लैब्यं मा स्म गमः पार्थ नैतत् त्वय्युपपद्यते | 2.8  

Anandagiri writes for that word 'klaibyam' - श्रीभगवानुवाच

 क्लैब्यं - क्लीबभावमधैर्यम् |  The word kliba  generally means a eunuch. That the word is also used to refer to the third, neuter, gender, is well known.     

Thus, the idea of klibatvam is used in the Gita in a way to express censure, disgrace, etc. 

Maybe in the Kavyas the information about eunuchs or castrated men being employed in the harems by Kings is found. The general reason given for this is: such people will not misbehave with the women of the harem at the same time serve the inmates of the harem in numerous ways.

The other reference for 'napumsaka' is in the Shvetashvataropanishat: नैव स्त्री न पुमानेष नैव चायं नपुंसकः |  [The spirit dwelling within the body is not of any gender. - not a man, not a woman, not a eunuch. 

regards

subrahmanian.v