Name for color blue in Vedas, or earliest reference.

[Shashi Joshi]

Respected members,

Do vedas have name for color blue?

Specifically used to mean the color.

What is the word for color of sky?

I found words neela and shyaama bit not sure if they mean the color.blue in the context.

What I am.looking for is the earliest reference to the name of color blue.

Neela is used in MB, we have neelotpala, neelakaNTha, neelakamala, but what is the earliest reference to the name of the color?

Here is a link that prompted me to think this.

http://www.businessinsider.com/what-is-blue-and-how-do-we-see-color-2015-2

Thanks,
Shashikant

[Vishal Agarwal]

You might find the attached paper interesting in this regard.

Vishal

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[Shashi Joshi]

Thanks a lot for the pdf, Vishal.

Thanks,
Shashi

[K S Kannan]

nIla ? :

I remember I was scolded by my tarka-teacher in my high school days

when I said I could give an example of 

nIlam tamo dhAvati

 citing the case of 

a burkha-clad woman running when it was almost dark.

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[Ramanujachar P]

Taittriya Samhita 7.3.18 has many shades of colours of pasu s to be used in Yajnas

Sent from my iPhone

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[V Subrahmanian]

There are several instances of the word 'neela' in the Upanishads too, as for example:

BSB 3.3.25: 

शाट्यायनिनाम् — ‘श्वेताश्वो हरितनीलोऽसि’ इत्यादिः 

Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 4.3.20:

ता वा अस्यैता हिता नाम नाड्यो यथा केशः सहस्रधा भिन्नस्तावताणिम्ना तिष्ठन्ति शुक्लस्य नीलस्य पिङ्गलस्य हरितस्य लोहितस्य पूर्णा अथ 

regards

subrahmanian.v

[Dr ramanath]

The Atharva Veda (14, 1, 2, 17) mentions baked pottery which turned
blue and red (Neela lohita). Literary sources tell us that the painted
potteries with different ...

On 21/06/2018, Ramanujachar P <ramanu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Taittriya Samhita 7.3.18 has many shades of colours of pasu s to be used in
> Yajnas
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On 21-Jun-2018, at 10:42 PM, K S Kannan <ks.kann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> nIla ? :
>> I remember I was scolded by my tarka-teacher in my high school days
>> when I said I could give an example of
>> nIlam tamo dhAvati
>> citing the case of
>> a burkha-clad woman running when it was almost dark.
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 9:28 PM, Shashi Joshi <shas...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>> Thanks a lot for the pdf, Vishal.
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Shashi
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[Dr ramanath]

The Atharva Veda (14, 1, 2, 17) mentions baked pottery which turned
blue and red (Neela lohita). Literary sources tell us that the painted
potteries with different ...


On 21/06/2018, Ramanujachar P <ramanu...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Taittriya Samhita 7.3.18 has many shades of colours of pasu s to be used in
> Yajnas
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On 21-Jun-2018, at 10:42 PM, K S Kannan <ks.kann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> nIla ? :
>> I remember I was scolded by my tarka-teacher in my high school days
>> when I said I could give an example of
>> nIlam tamo dhAvati
>> citing the case of
>> a burkha-clad woman running when it was almost dark.
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 9:28 PM, Shashi Joshi <shas...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>> Thanks a lot for the pdf, Vishal.
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Shashi
>>> --
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[Shashi Joshi]

Kannan ji,

I am looking for a use of the word to definitive  mean the color blue.

The word neela appears in RV 6 times, and as a first part of samAsa words.

There too its meaning is not clearly for a color.

We now know neela to mean blue, but how old is this word? When was it first used to mean the color blue? Or did it earlier mean dark? Or something else?

Thanks,

~ Shashi

On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 10:42 PM K S Kannan <ks.kann...@gmail.com> wrote:

nIla ? :

I remember I was scolded by my tarka-teacher in my high school days

when I said I could give an example of 

nIlam tamo dhAvati

 citing the case of 

a burkha-clad woman running when it was almost dark.

On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 9:28 PM, Shashi Joshi <shas...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks a lot for the pdf, Vishal.

Thanks,
Shashi

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[Shashi Joshi]

Subrahmanian ji,

Dhanyavad for this reference. I also remember mention of the colours of the flame and how sparks (sphullinga) come out of it. I forget the reference just now.

Thanks,

~ Shashi

[V Subrahmanian]

At the end of Narayana Sukta we have:

। नीलतोयदमध्यस्था विद्युल्लेखेव भास्वरा । नीवारशूकवत्तन्वी पीता भास्यत्यणूपमा । तस्याः शिखायाः मध्ये परमात्मा व्यवस्थितः। 

It is an analogy of water-laden cloud  of neela (blue or black?) color.  Sayana says no more than: ...वर्षितुं जलपूर्णत्वान्नीलवर्णः |

But then, we have the famous  color of Krishna described as 'नीलमेघश्यामः'  Is this blue or black?  There is the other famous expression आकाशनैल्यम् which is translated as 'the blue of the sky'.   

[K S Kannan]

MahAnArAyaNa (11.12) has nIla-toyada-madhyasthA.

            chAndogya (1.6.5) has  yan nIlam paraH kRs"Nam

           s'vetAs'vatara (4.4) has nIlaH patan'go harito lohitAks"aH

On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 11:55 PM, Shashi Joshi <shas...@gmail.com> wrote:

Subrahmanian ji,

Dhanyavad for this reference. I also remember mention of the colours of the flame and how sparks (sphullinga) come out of it. I forget the reference just now.

Thanks,

~ Shashi

On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 10:59 PM V Subrahmanian <v.subra...@gmail.com> wrote:

There are several instances of the word 'neela' in the Upanishads too, as for example:

BSB 3.3.25: 

शाट्यायनिनाम् — ‘श्वेताश्वो हरितनीलोऽसि’ इत्यादिः 

Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 4.3.20:

ता वा अस्यैता हिता नाम नाड्यो यथा केशः सहस्रधा भिन्नस्तावताणिम्ना तिष्ठन्ति शुक्लस्य नीलस्य पिङ्गलस्य हरितस्य लोहितस्य पूर्णा अथ 

regards

subrahmanian.v

On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 10:51 PM, Ramanujachar P <ramanu...@gmail.com> wrote:

Taittriya Samhita 7.3.18 has many shades of colours of pasu s to be used in Yajnas

Sent from my iPhone

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[K S Kannan]

see also brhad-AraNyaka  (4.4.9).

kaus"ItakI (3.1)  nAsya ... mukhAn nIlam vyeti

taittirIya samhitA (3.1.1.2) nAsya nIlam na haro vyeti

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[Vishal Agarwal]

The Neelarudra Upanishad is found in Atharvaveda Paippalada Samhita Kanda 14, Suktas 3&4. The epithet 'Neelagreevam' occurs in the first Sukta a few times. The Mantra quoted from Shatyaayani Shakha by Bhagavatpada under Shariraka Bhashya 3.3.25  is found in the surviving parallel text as Jaiminiya Upanishad Brahmana 4.1.1.

Vishal

On Thursday, June 21, 2018, 12:32:38 PM CDT, Dr ramanath <rnpm...@gmail.com> wrote:

The Atharva Veda (14, 1, 2, 17) mentions baked pottery which turned
blue and red (Neela lohita). Literary sources tell us that the painted
potteries with different ...


On 21/06/2018, Ramanujachar P <ramanu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Taittriya Samhita 7.3.18 has many shades of colours of pasu s to be used in
> Yajnas
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On 21-Jun-2018, at 10:42 PM, K S Kannan <ks.kann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> nIla ? :
>> I remember I was scolded by my tarka-teacher in my high school days
>> when I said I could give an example of
>> nIlam tamo dhAvati
>>  citing the case of
>> a burkha-clad woman running when it was almost dark.
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 9:28 PM, Shashi Joshi <shas...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>> Thanks a lot for the pdf, Vishal.
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Shashi
>>> --
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With Best Regards
Ramanath
--
Dr. Ramanath Pandey,
Research Officer, Oriental Institute of
the M S University of Baroda,
Former Research Associate, Department of Budhist Studies, University of
Delhi and
Former Associates of IIAS, Simla
Hon. Secretary,  Indian Society for Indic Studies( InSIS)
Founder Secretary of DRPSECT
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[K S Kannan]

JUB  (4.1.1) has s'vetAs'vo dars'ato harinIlo'si

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Research Officer, Oriental Institute of
the M S University of Baroda,
Former Research Associate, Department of Budhist Studies, University of
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Former Associates of IIAS, Simla
Hon. Secretary,  Indian Society for Indic Studies( InSIS)
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[Shashi Joshi]

It is not possible to say with definite that the word neela in neelarudra refers to the name of color blue.

RV has ashyAma,  8 or 9 times, but not shyAma.  ashyAma seems to refer to Divine. The word neela also appears 5 or 6 times as compound word, with neela as first word.  It again one can't say with 100% certaintyif the word means the color blue.

Though one would think if the word today means blue, it must have meant something close to that color even in RV time, else when would such a transition happen  from.one color to other or noncolor to color.

Thank you all for wonderful help.

Thanks,
Shashi

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[V Subrahmanian]

In Tamil there are two popular songs:  kaNNA....karumai niRak kaNNA...(here Krishna is said to be black)

neela meghak kaNNaa vaaDaa...(here it is blue, as in Tamil the two colors have two distinct names).  So it is not decided whether Krishna (even as the name suggests) is black or blue. 

In Madhusudana Saraswati's famous verse:  

ध्यनाभ्यासनवशीकृतेन मनसा तन्निर्गुणं निष्क्रियं ज्योतिः किंचनं योगिनो यदि परं पश्यन्ति पश्यन्तु ते | अस्माकं तु तदेव लोचनचमत्काराय भूयाच्चिरं कालिन्दीपुलिनोदरे किमपि यन्नीलं महो धावति || 

" If the yogis, with their minds which have been brought under control through the practise of meditation, see some such transcendental light that is without qualities and action, let them see ! But, for filling our eyes with astonishment, let there be forever that indescribable Blue (Light) alone which runs about hither and thither on the sands of the kaalindi (Yamuna) ! "

It would be interesting to see what Azhwars have said about the color of Krishna. 

regards

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the M S University of Baroda,
Former Research Associate, Department of Budhist Studies, University of
Delhi and
Former Associates of IIAS, Simla
Hon. Secretary,  Indian Society for Indic Studies( InSIS)
Founder Secretary of DRPSECT
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[Venkata Sriram]

नीलतोयद मध्यस्था विद्युल्लेखेव ....(नारायण सू०)

[Sathya Narayanan N]

Narayana Suktham has a description for your questions.

"nīlatoyadamadhyasthād vidyullekheva bhāsvarā,
nīvāraśūkavattanvī pītā bhāsvatyaṇūpamā."

Reference: https://www.swami-krishnananda.org/invoc/in_nara.html

[Shashi Joshi]

Thank you Sathya ji.

Does the neela in this, refer to blue or dark?

The point of the link in my original post is that humans may not have been able to distinguish many colors, specially blue since no records of the word for color blue is found in a client literature Greek or Indian.

Hence the time of usage, and the exact meaning (color blue) are critical.

Thanks,
Shashi

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[R. N. iyengar]

The question raised is intriguing. I find it hard to believe that ancient people were unable to recognize 'blue' colour. But it is true that what was meant by 'Neela' was most probably dark and not 'blue'. In the RV the poets might not have had occasion to refer to objects that were 'blue' in colour. In analyzing this issue the paper of Hopkins shared by Vishal ji is very interesting.The article shows a way for tracing probable ancient meanings of Sanskrit words that were used to mean differently in later times.  But  S'yaama and/or KrshNa are also used to mean 'dark' in many Sanskrit texts.  One way to go about is to look for several colours juxtaposed and hence differentiated. In MBh six colours are mentioned in a string:

Shantiparvan

0121770291/.zabdah.sparzaz.ca.ruupam.ca.rasaz.ca.apaam.gunaah.smRtaah./

0121770293/.rasa.jnaanam.tu.vaksyaami.tan.me.nigadatah.zRNu.//

0121770301/.raso.bahu.vidhah.proktah.suuribhih.prathita.aatmabhih./

0121770303/.madhuro.lavanas.tiktah.kasaayo.amlah.katus.tathaa./

0121770305/.esa.SaDvidha.vistaaro.raso.vaari.mayah.smRtah.//

0121770311/.zabdah.sparzaz.ca.ruupam.ca.tri.gunam.jyotis.ucyate./

0121770313/.jyotis.pazyati.ruupaani.ruupam.ca.bahudhaa.smRtam.//

0121770321/.hrasvo.diirghas.tathaa.sthuulaz.catur.asro.anu.vRttavaan./

0121770323/.zuklah.kRsnas.tathaa.rakto.niilah.piito.arunas.tathaa./

0121770325/.evam.dvaadaza.vistaaro.jyotii.ruupa.guna.smRtah.//

0121770331/.zabda.sparzau.tu.vijneyau.dvi.guno.vaayur.ucyate./

0121770333/.vaayavyas.tu.gunah.sparzah.sparzaz.ca.bahudhaa.smRtah.//

0121770341/.kathinaz.cikkanah.zlaksnah.picchalo.mRdu.daarunah./

Here Krshna and Niila are differentiated as separate colours, still one may wonder whether Niila is blue! There are similar instances of contrasting Shyaama and Niila. Ex: In the dhyaana shloka of Saptarshis during Sandhyopaasana seven colours appear in a string. 

श्वेत-श्याम-पीत-पिशङ्ग-नील-लोहित-कनक-वर्णोज्ज्वलाः |

One would expect the blue-sky and the blue-sea to have been alluded to in Vedic texts. A serious search may provide some leads. However, the most ancient unambiguous reference to Niila as the colour of the Indigo-plant which is obviously blue occurs in PaaNini 

In his India as known to PaaNini the great scholar  VS Agarwala writes:

Hence my submission:  Word 'Niila' in the sense of 'Blue' should have been used by commoners at least from around 700 BCE.

Thanks

RN Iyengar

[Nagaraj Paturi]

As Prof. Iyengar rightly indicated

1. Whether distinguishing various colours is found in Vedas or not 

is different from

2. Whether colour of the blue coloured objects, with whatever name, was identified in Vedas or not

is different from 

3. Whether 'Neela' is the word that was used to refer to blue colour

is different from 

4. From when did the word 'Neela' come to be used as a word referring to blue color

is different from 

5. What was the meaning of the word 'neela' before it came to be used in reference to blue colour. 

-------------------------

But to conclude that the word 'neela' was used to refer to both blue and black colours because of the inability to distinguish between the two colours is a wrong conclusion. In the first place, was the word 'neela' used to refer to both blue and black colours? 

------------------

Cognitive anthropologists found that colour perceptions are one of the most interesting cognitive cultural distinctions that different cultural groups have. 

Close home, in Telugu pachcha is the word used in reference to both yellow and green. To distinguish between yellow and green , words are prefixed to pachcha. Aaku (=leaf) paccha for green and pasupu (=turmeric) pachcha for yellow. 

But is such a situation found for the word neela? 

---------------------

In any case, perceiving one colour in terms of the other is not viewed as inability to distinguish colours. That is understood as the cognitive distinction of the speakers of the language. 

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

[Nagaraj Paturi]

There is a discussion on blue here, cited on another list:

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/what-is-blue-and-how-do-we-see-color-2015-2

Is this just a coincidence that the discussion on the same topic is coming up on various different fora at this same time ?

[Ashok Aklujkar]

On Jun 23, 2018, at 11:22 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

There is a discussion on blue here, cited on another list:

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/what-is-blue-and-how-do-we-see-color-2015-2

The elegantly written article brought to our attention by Prof. Paturi can be further enriched by the discussion of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis in:

http://www.linguisticsnetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/What-is-the-Sapir_Whorf-Hypothesis.compressed.pdf

More time-venerated is Bhartṛ-hari, Vākyapadīya-vṛtti 1.129 (kārikā number according to Wilhelm Rau’s edition): sad api vāg-vyavahāreṇānupagṛhītam artha-rūpam asatā tulyam.

a.a.

[K S Kannan]

sarvam s'abdena bhAsate

--

[K S Kannan]

vAg evArtham pas'yati, vAg bravIti

vAg evArtham nihitam santanoti/

vAcy eva vis'vam bahurUpam nibaddham

[K S Kannan]

vAk sarvAn samIhayati

[K S Kannan]

na ca s'abdAnusandhAna-rahitaH kas'cit pratyayo dRs'yate - JayantabhaTTa

[Shashi Joshi]

Nagaraj ji,

That link is what I had shared in my very first post. It is from 3 years back, I read it recently and it got me thinking on all the various points you mentioned - this is different from that is different from that ...

Thanks,
Shashi

Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

--

Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

--

[K S Kannan]

vAco vA idam sarvam prabhavati - S'atapatha-brAhmaNa

[V Subrahmanian]

(यथा सोम्यैकेन मृत्पिण्डेन सर्वं मृन्मयं विज्ञातꣳ स्यात्) वाचारम्भणं विकारो नामधेयं (मृत्तिकेत्येव सत्यम्) ॥   छादोग्योपनिषत् |

regards

subrahmanian.v

[Nagaraj Paturi]

The following from this FB post:

https://www.facebook.com/templescience/posts/911018578939516

--------     -------   ------  --------

-------  --------  -------  --------

संस्थाप्य मृण्मये पात्रे ताम्रपत्रं सुसंस्कृतम्‌। छादयेच्छिखिग्रीवेन चार्दाभि: काष्ठापांसुभि:॥ दस्तालोष्टो निधात्वय: पारदाच्छादितस्तत:। संयोगाज्जायते तेजो मित्रावरुणसंज्ञितम्‌॥

-------   -------    --------  -------

--------  --------  -------  --------

When Mr. Hole and his friend started preparing the apparatus on the basis of the above description, they could understand all the things except shikhigreeva. On checking the Sanskrit dictionary, they understood that it meant the neck of a peacock. So, he and his friend went to Maharaj Bagh and asked the chief when a peacock would die in his zoo. This angered the gentleman. Then they told him that they needed its neck for an experiment. The gentleman asked them to give in an application. Later, when during a conversation, they narrated this to an Ayurveda expert, he burst out laughing and said that here it did not mean the neck of a peacock, but a substance of that colour, that is copper sulphate. This solved the problem. Thus, a cell was formed and measured with a digital multimeter. It had an open circuit voltage of 1.38 volts and short circuit current of 23 milli amperes.

------   -------  -------- --------

-------  --------  -------  --------

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

This is how Copper Sulphate looks.

If we go by the interpretation in the FB post in the previous post, there were such methods of referring to colours, like peacock neck for blue, too. 

Since this reference is to particularly blue colour itself, this is more relevant here. 

There may be other such references to colours. We can look for other such references to blue. 

[Nagaraj Paturi]

For a possible question, 'Copper Sulphate is an English name. It must be a chemical known during modern times. How can that be referred to in ancient Sanskrit texts? ',

"Copper sulphate has been used several thousand years ago. Ancient Egyptian civilization had discovered the purpose of copper sulphate in dyeing. This purpose has survived until today, more than five thousand years after its inception. The Greeks saw some of the medical uses of the bluish substance. It was used to treat some diseases of the lungs. Today a wide range of applications of copper sulphate can be seen in many fields."

http://joalesto.articlealley.com/recognizing-the-three-leading-uses-of-copper-sulphate-863516.html

-----------------------------------

We used to buy it in my home town, from a traditional herbs and traditional minerals shop. The Telugu name we used was maila tuttam(u). The shop did not sell any modern chemicals. The shop owner did not have modern education.    

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Bangali - Tunte, Tuntiyā, English - Copper Sulphate, Blue vitriol, Gujarati - Morathuthu, Hindi - Nīlā Thothā, Tūtiā, Kannada - Mayuruthutha, Malayalam - Mayilthuththam, Marathi - Moracūda, Tamil - Mayil thuththam, Turken (S.F.I.), Telugu - Mailu tuttham, Melatutu, Urdu - Tutia, Kabood (N.F.U.M.)

http://www.aimilpharmaceuticals.com/herbs/tuth-bhasam/

Properties and Actions:

Rasa - Katu, Kasāya, Madhura, Guna - Laghu, Sara, Vīrya - Usna, Śīta, Vipāka - Katu, Karma - Kaphapittahara, Lekhana, Bhedana, Balya, Tridosaghna, Rasāyana, Rucikara, Vāmaka, Varnya, Garavisahara, Śūlaghna, Caksusya, Aśmarīhara, Kandughna, Ksārakarmakara, Arśoghna, K¨mighna

Therapeutic Uses:

Krmi (helminthiasis/worm infestation); Prameha (increased frequency and turbidity of urine); Medoroga (obesity); Śūla (pain/colic); Kustha (diseases of the skin); Śvāsa (Asthma); Amlapitta (hyperacidity); Tvak roga (skin disease); Śvitra (Leucoderma /Vitiligo); Arśa (piles); Vrana (ulcer/wound); Nadi  Vrana (sinus); Netra roga (diseases of eyes); Dusta vrana (non-healing ulcer)

Important Formulations:

Jātyādi taila, Nityānanda rasa, Jātyādi ghrta, Mahā visagarbha taila, Kāsīsādi ghrta

[Dr.C.S.R. Prabhu]

Kashish is the name for Copper Sulphate

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Kannada - Mayuruthutha,

Marathi - Moracūda,

clearly show connection of the name with peacock. 

Mail(a) etc. found in the names in other languages must be transformations of the form mayura found in Kannada. 

[Tuttha, Tutiya thothaa etc. found in Hindi. 

There seems to be a Sanskrit/Persian origin for these from a word turs meaning acidic, sour. 

(Detecting pre-modern lexical influence from

South India in Maritime Southeast Asia

Détecter l’influence du lexique pré‑moderne de l’Inde du Sud en Asie du Sud-Est

maritime.

Tom Hoogervorst) page 81]

Peacock connection in all these words goes to support the interpretation of s'ikhigreeva.  

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[Balasubramanian Ramakrishnan]

niilam is blue in Tamil. But black is karuppu.

Ramakrishnan

[V Subrahmanian]

While noting the 'shikhi-greeva', we are reminded of a name of Shiva 'shitikanTha'.  There is a variety of meanings for this, including peacock, of which one is 'blue-necked' and this is relevant in the case of Shiva because of his other name 'nIlakanTha', because of the poison:

http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=zitikaNTha&direct=se&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3

I think Mahabharata or some other purana gives the reason why Shiva is called 'shitikanTha'.

regards

subrahmanian.v

[Shashi Joshi]

Nagaraj ji,

The FB post mentions this to be from Agasty Samhita.

The copy at this link https://archive.org/details/AgastyaSanhita  does not have any verse as quotes in the fb post.

I wanted to see if any translations available, how were they translating the word.

Thanks,
Shashi

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Neelam is a Sanskrit borrowing (tatsama ward) into Tamil. Karuppu is a des'ya word i.e., a native Tamil word. 

Similar is the situation in all the south Indian languages. 

Neela is the root part in all the words for blue, which are all tatsamas in all these languages. There is a native word for black. nal(u)(pu), kar(r)(i) etc. in Telugu. kar(pu)>kappu in Kannada. 

This observation may lead to the confirmation that originally speakers of the languages did not recognise blue. 

But again, it may be noted that there were expressions such as nemili kannu rangu (colour of the centre of the peacock feather), nemileeka rangu (colour of the peacock feather) etc.  

  

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[shivraj singh]

Would the scholars know when was the first occurrence of the word for River Nile? That is in which century approximately and in what text?

Why can't we connect "Niir" (water) with Niila?

Regards,
Shivraj


--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 6/24/18, Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Re: Name for color blue in Vedas, or earliest reference.
To: "Bharatiya Vidvat parishad" <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Sunday, June 24, 2018, 5:29 PM

[सुदर्शनः]

Shashi wrote: 

Do vedas have name for color blue? Specifically used to mean the color.<snip> What I am.looking for is the earliest reference to the name of color blue.

Prof. Iyengar pointed to the oldest unambiguous reference to नीलं == blue from पाणिनिः। 

Of his reference from MBh, he said:

ह्रस्वो दीर्घस्तथा स्थूलश्चतुरस्रोऽणु वृत्तवान् । शुक्लः कृष्णस्तथा रक्तो नीलः पीतोऽरुणस्तथा ॥३२॥

Here Krshna and Niila are differentiated as separate colours, still one may wonder whether Niila is blue!

Found many more such instances in MBh where कृष्णं & नीलं are juxtaposed like this in the same sentence, and so must be differentiated as separate colours. But, as the professor said, those instances indeed do not confirm if the word नीलं actually meant blue. I therefore looked for instances where the word नीलं is associated to well known द्वयाणि and thus may unambiguously refer to the blue colour. Here are 4 such cases for your review..

1\ शान्तिपर्वणि

प्रवालाङ्कुरवर्णश्च श्वेतवर्णः क्वचिद्बभौ । क्वचित्सुवर्णवर्णाभो वैडूर्यसदृशः क्वचित् ॥३२६-४॥

नीलवैडूर्यसदृश इन्द्रनीलनिभः क्वचित् । मयूरग्रीववर्णाभो मुक्ताहारनिभः क्वचित् ॥३२६-५॥

एतान्वर्णान्बहुविधान्रूपे बिभ्रत्सनातनः । सहस्रनयनः श्रीमाञ्शतशीर्षः सहस्रपात् ॥३२६-६॥

2\ आरण्यकपर्वणि

तत्रापश्यद्द्रुमान्फुल्लान्विहगैर्वल्गु नादितान् । नदीश्च बहुलावर्ता नीलवैडूर्यसंनिभाः ॥३९-१७॥ // To describe a river

3\ भीष्मपर्वणि

पीतलोहितनीलश्च ज्वलत्यग्निर्हुतो द्विजैः । वामार्चिः शावगन्धी च धूमप्रायः खरस्वनः ॥३-३८॥ // Describes colours of fire.

4\ शल्यपर्वणि, 

शुशुभे राजमध्यस्थो नीलवासाः सितप्रभः । नक्षत्रैरिव सम्पूर्णो वृतो निशि निशाकरः ॥३३-४२॥  // Describing Balarama's cloths.

उच्चावचांस्तथा भक्ष्यान्द्विजेभ्यो विप्रदाय सः । नीलवासास्ततोऽगच्छच्छङ्खतीर्थं महायशाः ॥३६-१९॥

इति सुधीजनविधेयः,

- सुदर्शनः

[Shashi Joshi]

Dhanyavad Sudarshan ji, and all other esteemed members for very enlightening replies to my question.

Pranam,

Shashi

[V Subrahmanian]

There is the word 'Indraneela' to mean emerald/sapphire.  Surely these are not admitted to be black.

regards

subrahmanian.v

[Vaidhhya Mani]

Indṛaneela means A rare blue sapphire which will not easily available.

[Nagaraj Paturi]

What amazing references from Mahabharata by Sudarshan-ji!

On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 1:28 AM, सुदर्शनः <sudar...@gmail.com> wrote:

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