Re: [Samskrita] Fwd: Steps to Rectify Sanskrit Degradation
Irene Galstian
Read this to understand the Blunder first:------------ Forwarded message ---------
भेजने वाले: संस्कृत संवादः <samskrit...@gmail.com>
Date: मंगल, 2 जुल॰ 2024, 14:36
Subject: Steps to Rectify Sanskrit Degradation
To: Janardana Hegde <janarda...@gmail.com>Respected Shri Hegde,Namaste.I write to propose a crucial initiative aimed at rectifying the unintentional degradation of Sanskrit to ensure the use of correct Sanskrit forms.Below are the proposed steps:
1. Official Acknowledgement and Apology: Begin with an official acknowledgement of the unintentional degradation of Sanskrit and extend a sincere apology for every impact this have had on our cultural heritage.
2. Review and Correct Existing Textbooks: Conduct a thorough review of existing Sanskrit textbooks to identify errors and inconsistencies in grammar, syntax, and usage.
3. Era of Shuddhi Andolan: Initiate an "Era of Shuddhi Andolan" to promote correct usage and celebrate the efforts of those who diligently work to restore Sanskrit's purity.
4. Redesign Curriculum with Emphasis on Correct Forms: Redesign the curriculum to prioritize the use of correct Sanskrit grammar, including Sandhi rules, verb forms (lakāras), and appropriate use of Madhyama Purusha.
4.1. Zero Tolerance for Errors: Mistakes should be corrected immediately upon identification with zero tolerance. Encourage a culture where errors are seen as learning opportunities, not as points of embarrassment.
4.2. Embrace Sandhi Rules: Promote thorough learning and practice of Sandhi rules.
4.3. Correct Usage of Madhyama Purusha: Ensure accurate usage of the middle voice in verbs, emphasizing its importance.
4.4. Differentiation from Hindi: Clarify the unique grammar, vocabulary, and sentence structure of Sanskrit distinct from Hindi.
4.5. Appropriate Use of Compounds or Vibhakti: Utilize appropriate compounds or case endings (vibhakti) for clarity and precision.
4.6. Avoid Using 'वा' for Questions: Use suitable question indicators instead of 'वा' for questioning.
5. Incorporate Classical Sanskrit Texts: Integrate excerpts from classical Sanskrit texts, such as Pancharatram and other literary works, to exemplify correct usage and enhance comprehension of Sanskrit's traditional conversational styles.
6. Development of New Texts and Materials: Develop new textbooks and supplementary materials that adhere strictly to the principles of classical Sanskrit, ensuring clarity, accuracy, and preservation of language integrity.
7. Training for Educators: Provide comprehensive training programs for Sanskrit educators to familiarize them with the revised curriculum and empower them to teach correct Sanskrit effectively. Only appoint individuals proficient in both theoretical and practical aspects of Sanskrit through rigorous testing and certification.
8. Continuous Review and Improvement: Establish a mechanism for continuous review and improvement of textbooks, incorporating feedback from educators and scholars to maintain high standards of linguistic accuracy.
9. Promotion of Wholesome Learning: Focus on comprehensive Sanskrit education that includes all key elements without neglecting any aspect crucial for a thorough understanding.10. Translation of Technical Terms: Prepare Sanskrit equivalents for technical terminology across various fields and compile them in dictionaries.Implementing these measures will help maintain the purity and richness of Sanskrit, ensuring its continued teaching and learning with the highest standards.
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BVK Sastry (G-S-Pop)
Namaste
1. I agree with Irene Galstian. Great work done by SB and team in Keeping ‘Social Awareness of Samskrutham : Bhashaa’.
Kudos to the team. Dr. Janardan Hegde deserves all appreciation for the forte he is holding and the publication works at SB.
2. On < Implementing these measures will help maintain the purity and richness of Sanskrit, ensuring its continued
teaching and learning with the highest standards. >
The standards of Samskrutham are set by ‘VEDANGA’ Cognitive Linguistics frame and Gita (17-5) Yoga-Samskrutham / aka Vak-
Yoga design.
I request the < samskrit.samvadah > to please provide the Language Model for ‘Samskrutham’- aka : A language for which
Panini –Katyayana- Patanjali provide the Grammar framework ; and Yaska- Amarasimha provide the lexicon- semantic –
semiotic framework.
The < "Era of Shuddhi Andolan" to promote correct usage and celebrate the efforts of those who
diligently work to restore Sanskrit's purity. > needs to begin with ‘Techno-linguists, who have downgraded ‘Panini
– Samskrutham: As Vedanga and Pada –Shastra’ to the level –layer of ‘ Historic, Greco-Roman Model for referencing; a
cultural syncretism model between the Greek and Roman cultures, using IE linguistics . The Greco-Roman grammatical
tradition is the basis of much of the linguistic meta-language used today. It evolved from being a practical to a scientific
discipline, with its own set of rules. Romano-Greek is a nearly extinct mixed language spoken by the Romani people in
Greece that arose from language contact between Romani speaking people and the Greek language.
The < Shuddhi Andolan > needs to elevate ‘Sanskrit’ from IE linguistics- Migrants language as misconstrued
understanding of Valmiki’s technical term ‘Maanushee Bhashaa’ frame to < Daivee> as provided in Upanishads before
talking of < Veda- Bhashaa>.
The Greco-Roman tradition - Oxford Academic https://academic.oup.com/book/41916/chapter/354805374
**Sanskrit** and **Ancient Greek** share fascinating linguistic connections. Let's explore some similarities between these ancient languages:
1. **Common Ancestry**: Both Sanskrit and Greek belong to the **Indo-European family of languages**. They evolved from a reconstructed language called **Proto-Indo-European** that existed before the development of writing⁴.
2. **Vocabulary**: Despite using different alphabets, Sanskrit and Ancient Greek have several similar vocabulary words. Here are some examples:
- **Mind**: Sanskrit *मनस् (manas)* vs. Greek *μένος (menos)*
- **Great/Big**: Sanskrit *मह (maha)* vs. Greek *μέγας (megas)*
- **Knee**: Sanskrit *जानु (janu)* vs. Greek *γόνυ (gonu)*
- **Water**: Sanskrit *उदन् (udan)* vs. Greek *ὕδωρ (hudor)*
- And many more! ⁴
3. **Language Variants**:
- **Vedic Sanskrit** (from the Vedas) differs from **Classical Sanskrit**, much like the difference between **Homeric Greek** and **Classical Greek**. These variants show changes over time in phonology, vocabulary, and grammar⁷.
- Similarly, **Mycenaean Greek** (dating back to the 15th century BCE) represents the most ancient documented form of Greek⁴.
These linguistic connections provide a fascinating glimpse into our shared cultural heritage!
Source: Conversation with Copilot, 3/7/2024
(1) Sanskrit and Greek: The Similarities and Differences between them. https://travelwithlanguages.com/blog/sanskrit-and-greek.html .
(2) Sanskrit - New World Encyclopedia. https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Sanskrit .
(3) Cultural Links between India & the Greco-Roman World. https://www.worldhistory.org/article/208/cultural-links-between-india--the-greco-roman-worl/ .
(4) An Introduction to Sanskrit: The Language of Yoga - Yogic Studies. https://www.yogicstudies.com/blog/an-introduction-to-sanskrit .
(5) Sanskrit - Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit .
(6) Vedic Sanskrit - Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedic_Sanskrit .
(7) Indo-European languages - Establishment, Spread, Diversity. https://www.britannica.com/topic/Indo-European-languages/Establishment-of-the-family .
Regards
BVK Sastry
From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Irene Galstian
Sent: 03 July 2024 13:13
To: sams...@googlegroups.com
Cc: Samv...@googlegroups.com; BVpar...@googlegroups.com
Subject: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Re: [Samskrita] Fwd: Steps to Rectify Sanskrit Degradation
Sorry, but this is going too far.
Dr Hegde and the Sanskrit experts who founded SB and keep it going for many years now have spent their lives teaching and promoting Sanskrit, and thanks to them that river is flowing. Please ask yourself, how long have you been involved? How long will you last? Polemics is one thing, staying power is another. To do what they did at SB they needed A LOT of staying power when there was nothing else that kept them going. While in your case a worthwhile contribution is AT BEST a promise, in the case of SB founders is THE DELIVERY, which means days, weeks, months and years devoted to Sanskrit textbooks, translations, promotions, etc. For what? To make money? Surely not: look how affordable the excellent SB translations are of various novels that only someone who knows Sanskrit extremely well can take on and bring to a conclusion. Look how concerned Dr Hegde is that the readers of his grammar books are aware of the subtleties of Sanskrit usages. We must bow to the founders of SB and know clearly that we owe them a debt we can't possibly repay.
You are not wrong when you say that it's not possible to teach spoken Sanskrit in 10 days. In fact, unless you know someone who speaks Sanskrit well and who is willing to speak with you and teach you, 10 years won't be enough either. But nothing at all can take away the immense achievement of SB and nothing can ever diminish our endless gratitude to its founders.
On Wed, Jul 3, 2024 at 10:24 AM संस्कृत संवादः <samskrit...@gmail.com> wrote:
Read this to understand the Blunder first:
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संस्कृत संवादः
भेजने वाले: संस्कृत संवादः <samskrit...@gmail.com>
Date: मंगल, 2 जुल॰ 2024, 14:36
Subject: Steps to Rectify Sanskrit Degradation
To: Janardana Hegde <janarda...@gmail.com>
संस्कृत संवादः
Yogananda CS
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Yogananda CS
Yogananda CS
bharat gupt
Bharat GuptFormer Faculty, Delhi University,Trustee and Executive MemberINDIRA GANDHI NATIONAL CENTER FOR THE ARTS(Ministry of Culture), New Delhi
Vice Chairman,NATIONAL SCHOOL OF DRAMA
mobile:+91- 98100 77914email: bharat...@gmail.comhomepage: http://www.bharatgupt.com
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संस्कृत संवादः
Yogananda CS
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venkat veeraraghavan
Like in Veda, Tantra and Yoga there are horses for different courses. The same applies for bhasha.
BVK Sastry (G-S-Pop)
Namaste Yoganand ji, Mohit ji
1. I notice that multiple issues are twined in the posts below and finger pointing is going elsewhere; and when it comes to solution, the question raisers end up as ‘Commentators and spectator- reviewers’.
An issue will be considered really critical if the person is ready to ‘give life and all possessions to save the cherished value ’.
This is passion needed in this case; and SB team has admirably put up a brave face to keep Samskruth Socially Vibrant for decades.
2. Coming to specific issues :
2.1: Learning Sanskrit as a 'social - conversational language'
Learning ' Language through same language medium' (Samskruth through Samskruth)
Learning 'Content documented in a language, without recourse to language-scholarship of source document
are different expectations and line items for project work.
2.2. Yoganand ji is right in pointing to the daily activity : < have a normal day to day conversation in Sanskrit > to keep Social Connect of Sacred language, beyond Mandir, ritual, Class room.
Point is both have to develop simultaneously, These are connected but non-overlapping issues; and one cannot be achieved at the cost of the other.
Just because 'english was learnt at school', it does not mean the 'english/ english medium educated can be a good 'Coding person or college Language Professor'.
2.3. What SB / Sanskrit University / Government / Education department / CSR funders should be doing for Samskrutham is a good advise; but it needs time -effort- prioritized work and resources.
2.4. If the responders are so willing, How many can step up and join hands as 'Volunteers' offering 'Quality time for Developing a Panini - Samskruth Programing Language (beyond display of Devanagari/ indic language scripts on HTML pages ?? under Python ?
Or at the simplest request : Run - Support a 'DIGITAL INFRA OF SAMSKRUTH : A SCHOOL /CENTER' - For standards 1 -12 ?
I call this as 'Digital Samskruth Movement :: Samskrutha- Sanganakam' – Saamjika Samskrutham - complementing ‘Sambhashana Samskrutham’ .
The unit can under the supervision of 'Samskruth / Language Teachers, a platform from which students may go on to do graduation in all Indian languages and language mediums, including Sanskrit and English; to augment Schooling and Skilling ?
2.5. Can I have an off line contact from those willing to be co-partners in this social outreach of 'Samskruth' model developed by me ? and put to 'Field Test' ? received well by school students pl ??
Regards
BVK Sastry
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संस्कृत संवादः
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Nagaraj Paturi
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Nagaraj Paturi
BVK Sastry (G-S-Pop)
Namaste
Exploring the links in the mail, I liked the following observation at the link:
(Vidya to Dhanam : Vidya dhanam sarva –dhana-pradhanam)
Need of Commercialisation of Samskrit (sanskritdocuments.org)
What is commercialization of Samskrit?
If you have an idea, and you want to bring that idea into function or fruition and make it a reality and not go just as a passing thought, then you have to take action that requires resources, manpower, capital, time and energy. All ideas require resources to actualize.
The MHRD has a lot of innovative ideas to revamp Sanskrit Education in Bharata. If those ideas should be actualized then commercialization becomes a necessary evil. It is through commercialisation that we could transform daydream to a vision. Commercialization helps to make money which in turn helps in the evolution of our culture and society.
The Conclusion
The revival of Sanskrit Education is in a nascent stage. Most ideas and resources in Sanskrit Education sit on the shelf and do nothing. It is time that we turn our rich resources into a commercialised product. If not done now, it will become even harder to turn the resources into a profitable product. Let us not forget - No Revenue. No salaries. No employees. No investors and at last No Company!
Regards
The standards of Samskrutham are set by ‘VEDANGA’ Cognitive Linguistics frame and Gita (17-5) Yoga-Samskrutham / aka Vak-Yoga design.
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Nagaraj Paturi
Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
Dean, IndicA
BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
BoS Kavikulaguru Kalidasa Sanskrit University, Ramtek, Maharashtra
BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru.
Member, Advisory Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthanam, Bengaluru
Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies,
FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education,
Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
Viswanath
संस्कृत संवादः
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संस्कृत संवादः
BVK Sastry (G-S-Pop)
Namaste
1. I notice that the discussion is drifting towards ‘Defining What is Valid- Right- Samskruth Expression’ to communicate an
intention in conversation. ‘Pl. Speak Samskrutham’.
[The intention is a Request, Desire Expressed, Command, Directive … ] .
The sentence under lens is – वदतु संस्कृतम् - The staked claim is ‘वद संस्कृतम् or उच्यतां संस्कृतम्’ is correct.
2. The contention and objection seems to challenge the teaching- interpretation of ‘Panini –Sutras’.
The seniors in Samskrutha Vyakarana’ can clarify and critique the explanation provided below.
This discussion on ‘वदतु संस्कृतम्’ – is not new. The justification for this usage was provided as early as 1980’s by then great
scholars – vidwans of Samskrutham, whom SB had posed this challenge of ‘Social Sanskrit – Simplified for Conversation and
Confidence building and Community Identity Consolidation - Movement’.
The technicality was < Vyavahara- Samskrutham / Loka – Samskrutham / Jana- Gana – Mana - Pada Samskrutham.]
3. The lament is < I don't know how to define "complete > ?
4. The standard arbitrated and accepted reference invoked is : < The students that know how to use all the lakāras, purushas,
vachanas etc. which form the linguistic structure of Sanskrit, are said to have a satisfactory knowledge base. >
5. In this specific case, if we all concur on authority of ‘Panini- Patanjali- tradition up to Bhattoji Deekshita (at the least)
as the Shishta’s, providing Knowledge base for validating linguistic structure of a Samskruth (Bhashaa) expression’,
And in this case ‘ the justification of ‘Lot- Lakara for (वदतु ) ’ in the expression ‘वदतु संस्कृतम् –
to convey a ‘Speakers Conversational Communication = Vivakshaa < Request, Desire Expressed, Command, Directive >
to Listener/ Speaker < to comply when responding >,
THEN the usage is Justified under the scope of the Rules:
३.३.८ लोडर्थलक्षणे च । ३.३.१६१ विधिनिमन्त्रणामन्त्रण - अधीष्टसम्प्रश्नप्रार्थनेषु लिङ् । ३.३.१६२ लोट् च ।
This is akin to the ‘expression : Speak English’- if one is familiar with Standard American English Conversation, where Speaker is using ‘Indian (UK) Standard training as standard for ‘American English Context’. The overlooked point is ‘English Usage standard validation changes across the streets of nation and context of speakers! Yet all is ‘English’! Only pity is English does not have a standard frame of Grammar to regulate usage. English grammar has changed dynamically ! by decades and locales !
Explore : Which variety of English should you speak? | British Council
https://www.britishcouncil.org/voices-magazine/which-variety-english-should-you-speak
6. As for Samskrutham: Bhashaa , Sutra-Kaara has provided enough options and flexibility to form the practical social expression.
And in this sense, ‘वदतु संस्कृतम् – is Paninian Bhashaa compliant valid expression.
If Paninian rule has provided option for ‘Conversational simplicity’, and it is useful for upkeep of Social Interest in Sanskrit,
why malign and fight the issue ??
Please See examples from the traditional commentaries for JUSTIFICATION OF ‘ LOT’ . [Web page Proofing errors overlooked].
काशिका-वृत्तिः - विधिनिमन्त्रणामन्त्रण अधीष्टसम्प्रश्नप्रार्थनेषु लिङ्॥ ३।३।१६१ sanskritdocuments.org/learning_tools/ashtadhyayi/vyakhya/3/3.3.161.htm
sanskritdocuments.org/learning_tools/ashtadhyayi/vyakhya/3/3.3.8.htm
विधिः प्रेरणम्। निमन्त्रणम् नियोगकरणम्। आमन्त्रणम् कामचारकरणम्। अधीष्टः सत्कारपूर्वको व्यापारः। सम्प्रश्नः सम्प्रधारणम्। प्रार्थनम् याच्ञा। विध्यादिष्वर्थेषु धातोः लिङ् प्रत्ययो भवति। सर्वलकाराणाम् अपवादः। विध्यादयश्च प्रत्ययार्थविशेषणम्। विध्यादिविशिष्टेषु कर्त्रादिषु लिङ् प्रत्ययो भवति। विधौ तावत् कटम् कुर्यात्। ग्रामं भवानागच्छेत्। निमन्त्रणे इह भवान् भुञ्जीत। इह भवानासीत। आमन्त्रणे इह भवानासीत। इह भवान् भुञ्जीत। अधीष्टे अधीछामो भवन्तं माणवकं भवानुपनयेत्। सम्प्रश्ने किं नु खलु भो व्याकरनम् अधीयीय। प्रार्थने भवति मे प्रार्थना व्याकरनम् अधीयीय।
काशिका-वृत्तिः : लोट् च ३।३।१६२
sanskritdocuments.org/learning_tools/ashtadhyayi/vyakhya/3/3.3.162.htm
लोट् प्रत्ययो भवति धातोः विध्यादिषु अर्थेषु। योगविभाग उत्तरार्थः। विधौ तावत् कटं तावत् भवान् करोतु। ग्रामं भवानागच्छतु। निमन्त्रणे अमुत्र भवानास्ताम्। अमुत्र भवान् भुङ्क्ताम्। आमन्त्रने इह भवान् भुङ्क्ताम्। अधीष्टे अधीच्छामो भवन्तं माणवकं भवानध्यापयतु, माणावकं भवानुपनयताम्। सम्प्रश्ने किं नु खलु भो व्याक्रनम् अध्ययै। प्रार्थने भवति मे प्रार्थना व्याकरणम् अध्ययै, छन्दो ऽध्ययै।
काशिका-वृत्तिः - प्रैषातिसर्गप्राप्तकालेषु कृत्याश्च॥ ३।३।१६३
sanskritdocuments.org/learning_tools/ashtadhyayi/vyakhya/3/3.3.163.htm
प्रेषणं प्रैषः। कामचाराभ्यनुज्ञानम् अतिसर्गः। निमित्तभूतस्य कालस्य अवसरः प्राप्तकालता। एतेष्वर्थेषु धातोः कृत्यसंज्ञकाः प्रत्ययाः भवन्ति, चकाराल् लोट् च। भवता कटः करणीयः, कर्तव्यः, कृत्यः, कार्यः। लोट् खल्वपि करोतु कटं भवानिह प्रेषितः, भवानतिसृष्टह्, भवतः प्राप्तकालः कटकरणे। किमर्थं प्रैषादिषु कृत्या विधीयन्ते न सामान्येन, भावकर्मणोर् विहिता एव ते प्रैषादिष्वन्यत्र च भविष्यन्ति? विशेषविहितेन अनेन लोटा बाद्यन्ते। वासरूपविधिना भविस्यन्ति? एवं तर्हि ज्ञापयति, स्त्र्यधिकारात् परेण वासरूपविधिर् नावष्यं भवति इति। विधिप्रैषयोः को विशेष? केचिदाहुः, अज्ञातज्ञापनं विधिः, प्रेषणं प्रैषः इति।
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संस्कृत संवादः
L Srinivas
BVK Sastry (G-S-Pop)
Namaste Mohit ji
1. I am not interested in teaching a Samskruth Basic class –issues as a part of posts on this august forum.
I have no intention or right to stake a claim or prove any one on my < knowing Sanskrit> ?.
And I am least interested in argumentative challenges on ‘Paninian Languages- Rule interpretation’ – after pointing to the
sources for justification, pl.
I ignore your personal accusation on me.
Pl. go back to your teacher and ask for the explanation of quoted Paninian Rules ; Specifically
- Pl. seek explanation from your teacher why Kashika gives the illustration : < भवान् करोतु। ग्रामं भवानागच्छतु। >
- Pl. contemplate on the intention of the observation in Kashikaa : < सर्वलकाराणाम् अपवादः >
The sane-response of knowledgeable listeners to the statement ‘वदतु संस्कृतम्’ will be like ‘< वदामि / वदामः -
न वदामि, न वदामः/ किञ्चित् किञ्चित् वदामि, अल्पं वदामि…> .
If you are so obsessed with the ‘ Literal Translation of the expression < वदतु संस्कृतम् >,
it would mean < Speak Refined / Cultured / Processed Language. ;
This communication is NOT limited to any one specific named language marked ‘ Sanskrit’.
2. Your statement :
< If you had known sanskrit you would have known that वदतु संस्कृतम् means Let the Sansktit Speak>
Is factually , grammatically short construction of the scope of Paninian rules.
वदतु संस्कृतम् – DOES NOT MEAN ‘Let the Sansktit Speak’.
Pl. see why these two expressions are different < रामः वदतु - रामं वदतु > in their communication.
The Gender and Vibhakti issues need careful analysis.
3. Why is it so ? It is because the way the term < > is constructed.
What is the meaning – attributes of the base word < संस्कृतम् > ? - It is taken as सं-स्कृत (or सं-स्कृत), mfn.
Monier-Williams Sanskrit Dictionary 1899 Advanced (uni-koeln.de) provides how the word संस्कृतम् is associated
with meanings.
(H2) [Printed book page 1120,3]
सं-स्कृत (or सं-स्कृत), mfn. put together, constructed, well or completely formed, perfected, Lalit. [ID=227087] made ready, prepared, completed, finished, RV. &c. &c. [ID=227087.05] dressed, cooked (as food), MBh. ; R. ; BhP. [ID=227087.1] purified, consecrated, sanctified, hallowed, initiated, ŚBr. &c. &c. [ID=227087.15] refined, adorned, ornamented, polished, highly elaborated (esp. applied to highly wrought speech, such as the Sanskṛt language as opp. to the vernaculars), Mn. ; MBh. &c. [ID=227087.2]
सं-स्कृत m. a man of one of the three classes who has been sanctified by the purificatory rites, W. [ID=227087.25] a learned man, MW. [ID=227087.3] a word formed according to accurate rules, a regular derivation, ib. [ID=227087.35]
सं-स्कृत (अम्), n. making ready, preparation or a prepared place, sacrifice, RV. ; TS. ; ŚBr. ; GṛŚrS. [ID=227087.4] a sacred usage or custom, MW. [ID=227087.45] the Sanskṛt language (cf. above), Śikṣ. ; Bhar. ; Daśar. &c. [ID=227087.5]
4. May be before responding further, please go through the earlier discussion on the same group under the subject line : भवच्छब्द-युष्मच्छब्दविषये मम मतम्। (चर्चा/जिज्ञासा) - 311 views - [ Dec 6, 2017 to Jan 3, 2019 ]
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/7110388a-1afc-498d-91fd-c20aab35e54bn%40googlegroups.com.
संस्कृत संवादः
लोकेश
संस्कृत संवादः
BVK Sastry (G-S-Pop)
Namaste Mohit ji
1. Your arguments, connected to the subject line < Steps to Rectify Sanskrit Degradation >
has embraced a pre-drawn hypothesis and conclusion : < वदतु संस्कृतं is UN- PANIAN. >
‘ Therefore such usages need ‘rectification’. To justify this, you invoke some select rules and conclude to charge me :
< It's very unfortunate that you know sanskrit and still defending using the prathama purusha here which is indeed
nothing but the influence of hindi language.>
[ पाणिनि- व्याकरण -सूत्र-कवचितस्य संस्कृत-नाम्ना निर्दिष्टस्य भाषायाः विकृति: - प्राकृतत्वं प्रयोगे दृश्यते - यथा - वदतु संस्कृतं इत्यत्र | तस्य परिष्कारः आवश्यकः>
2. Everyone understands that Panini is cryptic ; Patanjali is Complex; and Vyakarana-sutra-Vyakhyanas are enigma of deep forest.
So we need Scholars to respond here:
Scholarly opinions should not keep social language users with options for usage confusion and chaos on language- tradition
and standards for validation < न बुद्धिभेदम् जनयेत् / न हि सन्देहात्- अलक्षणम् >
In this illustration case : I notice that we are not seeing the given statement < वदतु संस्कृतं > related grammar, specifically for
the < purusha > construction.
Mohit invokes –‘ Upapada’ technicality for challenging <’ Prathama-purusha’> . Using Sutra ( 1-4-105) related .
BVK Sastry is connecting – ‘ Lot’ – Artha –lakshana related Sutras for justifying the existing usage.
< ३.३.८ लोडर्थलक्षणे च । ३.३.१६१ विधिनिमन्त्रणामन्त्रण -अधीष्टसम्प्रश्नप्रार्थनेषु लिङ् । ३.३.१६२ लोट् च >
3. Mohit is invoking ‘Upa-Pada’ technicality where it is NOT applicable. Why ? Upapada needs a ‘Samasa’ context.
The pre-condition to invoke <3-4-77> is ‘Upa-Pada’- samjna: युष्मद्युपपदे सति - Application-Technicality.
The second precondition is < यदा युष्मच्छब्देन तथा च तिङ्प्रत्ययेन समानपदार्थस्य निर्देशः भवति तदा >
This is NOT present in <वदतु - संस्कृतं >.
२.२.१९ कौमुदी-७८२ - उपपदमतिङ् - The technicality needed for ‘ Samasa’. < वदतु संस्कृतं > does not have ‘samasa’.
काशिका- नित्यमिति वर्तते। उपपदमतिङन्तं समर्थेन शब्दान्तरेण सह समस्यते नित्यम्, तत्पुरुषश्च समासो भवति। कुम्भकारः। नगरकारः। अतिङिति किम्? एधानाहारको व्रजति। ननु च सुप् सुपेति वर्तते, तत्र कुतस्तिङन्तेन सह समासप्रसङ्गः? एवं तर्हि ज्ञापयत्येतयोर्योगयोः सुप् सुपेति न संबध्यत इति। तेन गतिकारकोपपदानां कृद्भिः सह समासवचनं प्राक् सुबुत्पत्तेः (परि० ७५) इत्येतदुपपन्नं भवति। अश्वक्रीती। धनक्रीती॥
सिद्धान्तकौमुदी (७८२) उपपदं सुबन्तं समर्थेन नित्यं समस्यते । अतिङन्तश्चायं समासः । कुम्भं करोतीति कुम्भकारः । इह कुम्भ अस् कार इत्यलौकिकं प्रक्रियावाक्यम् । अतिङ् किम् । मा भवान् भूत् । माङि लुङ् (कौमुदी-१२१९) इति सप्तमीनिर्देशान्माङुपपदम् । अतिङ्ग्रहणं ज्ञापयति सुपेत्येन्नेहानुवर्तत इति । पूर्वसूत्रेऽपि गतिग्रहणं पृथक्कृत्यातिङ्ग्रहणं तत्रापकृष्यते । सुपेति च निवृत्तम् । तथा च [(परिभाषा - ) गतिकारकोपपदानां कृद्भिः सह समासवचनं प्राक्सुबुत्पत्तेः] इति सिद्धम् ॥ व्याघ्री । अश्वक्रीती । कच्छपी ॥
4. BVK Sastry invokes ‘Artha-lakshana’ ‘LA-Kaara’- technicality applicable for < वदतु - संस्कृतं > as a SENTENCE वाक्य.
In 3-3-163, the expression with example is the case . < लोट् खल्वपि करोतु कटं > The expression < करोतु कटं > does not translate to < Let the कट do itself > on the lines of interpreted translation : < Mohit: If you had known sanskrit you would have known that वदतु संस्कृतम् means Let the Sansktit Speak> < करोतु कटं > would mean < Do कट > .
5. This technical discussion, of ‘ Paninian Language’ needs a clarity in answering the Basic Question:
< किं तत् - संस्कृतं नाम ? किमर्थं तस्य शासनम् ? > - लक्षणम् किं ? - प्रयोजनम् किं ?
The clarity on DEFINITIONAL MODELLING and PEDAGOGY OF INSTRUCTION called YOGA- PRAYOGA- UPAYOGA-VINIYOGA.
Patanjali has answered this question upfront.
‘Social Conversational ‘Samskrutham / Loka- Bhashaa / Vyavahara’ is a narrow part of this large issue.
Patanajli’s overarching answer for < किमर्थं तस्य शासनम् ? > is वेदाध्ययनम् - वेदाङ्गता - पद-शास्त्रम् - वाग्योग-अनुशासनम्
Current day thinkers are positioning ‘Samskrutham’ under Tower of Babel – IE linguistics- Social and Ritual Usage.
Therefore, the opinions are bound to differ on the subject line < Steps to Rectify Sanskrit Degradation> .
I request experts of Panini Vyakarana tradition to respond and help me for better clarity.
Respectful Regards
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लोकेश
भवानागच्छतीत्यादौ भवच्छब्दयोगे तु न मध्यमपुरुषः, युष्मच्छब्दस्य संबोध्यैकविषयत्वात्, भवच्छब्दस्य तु स्वभावेन संबोध्याऽसंबोध्यसाधारणत्वात् - बालमनोरमा १.४.१०५
स्वयम् च अनंतरम् सैन्यम् भवान् एव अनुपश्यतु || ४-२९-३१
(सुघ्रीवो नीलं प्रति उवाच)संस्कृत संवादः
अस्माकं तु विशिष्टा ये तान्निबोध द्विजोत्तम । नायका मम सैन्यस्य संज्ञार्थं तान्ब्रवीमि ते ॥ १-७॥ भवान्भीष्मश्च कर्णश्च कृपश्च समितिञ्जयः ।
भीष्ममेवाभिरक्षन्तु भवन्तः सर्व एव हि
परं ब्रह्म परं धाम पवित्रं परमं भवान् । पुरुषं शाश्वतं दिव्यमादिदेवमजं विभुम् ॥ १०-१२॥ आहुस्त्वामृषयः सर्वे देवर्षिर्नारदस्तथा । असितो देवलो व्यासः स्वयं चैव ब्रवीषि मे ॥ १०-१३॥
BVK Sastry (G-S-Pop)
Namaste
On
< This is followed in all the sanskrit texts. I challenge to show a single verse from our classical texts where prathama purusha is used while directly addressing someone. Even while addressing someone with भवती madhyama purusha is used. >
1. This kind of argument is beyond my learning limits ! where ‘Samskrutham’ is modelled on ‘Prakrutham- Desi- languages’.
< वदतु संस्कृतं > is implicitly conveying < भवान् वदतु संस्कृतं > . It is NOT< त्वं संस्कृतं वद / संस्कृत-भाषायां वद>
I see the post below pushing three unacceptable - damaging- damning options for future of ‘Samskrutham’ due to above
Inappropriate modelling of Paninian Language adapting achromatic ‘viewing lens’.
No fanatic issue or pride hurt issue !! No personal hurt pl.
2. The post is clear display of incorrect reception of ‘Muni-Traya - Samskrutha Vyakarana- Sampradaya:
The Integrity of teaching ‘Samskrutham as Unified social and spiritual use of ‘Bhaava- Aakhyana’ : (Gita : 17-15: Vangmayam
Tapah/ Satya-vak / Yoga-Samskrutham) is maligned and challenged by short understanding of ‘Samskrutham: on the model
of European Languages and Indic Prakrut language models’.
It is also a clear indication of ‘need to explore why Samskrutham is called ‘Vak-Yoga’ by Patanjali invoking authority of Vedas;
and application of Patanjali Prayer < padena - vacham rogam apaakarot, tam muneenaam pravaram Patanjalim vande >.
It is still a question at large on why ‘Gita has said : aksharanam akarosmi, dvandvah saamasikasya cha’.
Per discovery of Mohit ji, We seem to be pushed to make choices out of three logical options :
Option-1: Sri Krishna et al ( supposedly historically three millennia or more older from Panini) used a NON-PANINIAN different
grammar rule book.
Panini- Patanjali and followers of Ashtadhyayi – Sanskrit Standards covered up ‘Gita- Sanskrit-Standards’ with some
‘rule’ compromise wraps ?? Because muni-traya did not understand Gita sloka’s quoted.
Logical Outcome: There occurred an internal Sanskrit degrading ! between Historic Gita and Panini Rule making.
Charge: Muni-Traya failed to understand Gita-Sanskrit- Standards ??
Muni-Traya meddled with ‘ Inhertied Standards of Language’. ??
Option-2: Inside ‘ Muni-Traya’ Teaching of Vedanga – Pada-Shaastra – Samskrutham all historical traditionalists from Kashikaa kaara to Bhattoji Deekshita failed to see the application of ‘ Samskrutha Vyakarana’ to ‘Sacred Conversation of Two Yogi’s, the Yoga-Samvada using Language described as ‘Vak-Yoga’ in Vedas; invoked by Patanjali and reckoned as ‘Pedagogy of Vako-Vakyam’ in Upanishads. If Samskruth grammarians erred, the same error percolated to Prakruth grammars also !
Logical Outcome: There has been a historical break down / turn blind eye total discordance and disconnect of Vedanta Bhashyakaaras of Srimad Bhagavad- Gita –with ‘Muni-Traya Samskrutha Vyakarana- Bhashaa tradition; Prasthana-Traya Bhashyakara’s applied a wrong Grammar rule book to comment – explain- interpret the ‘Language of Gita-Text and align it to Vedas- upanishats and Brahma sutra ??!! ; The inappropriate application of ‘Panini Vyakarana’ to explain Gita is a sign of internal Sanskrit degrading !
Charge: Acharya-Traya explaining Gita by Muni-Traya language of –Samskrutham - Standards ?? is an error.
Once Grammar is erred, the text-outcome is messed up; Result: ‘language interpretation compromised?!
Option-3: Samskrutha Bharati promoted /popularized Un-Paninian format of ‘Social – Samskrutham’; This needs <purification> ??
Logical Outcome: ‘ Samskrutham to be confined to ‘Closed ivory tower’ – and ‘ Samskruth Document using vast majority of Hindu / Traditional community is ‘doing incorrect mumbo jumbo’ in the name of faith and ‘God –Pleasing- noises’?? Wrong usage of language results in inappropriate outcome.
‘Rectification of (?) Samskrutham cannot be pushed using ‘Prakrut’: usage standards, historicity.
All those who are still not able to digest <Samskrutham is mother of Prakrut’s>, pl. explore Buddhist Grammarian
‘Katyayana / Kacchayana’ to Hemachandra. Some snippets from Hemachandra – below.
Source: 2015.546001.Prakrit-Grammar.pdf (archive.org) https://dn790002.ca.archive.org/0/items/in.ernet.dli.2015.546001/2015.546001.Prakrit-Grammar.pdf
We do know: Incorrect application of rules results in erroneous outcome;
Numeric Speaker count and demography is NOT measure of Standard Rule Application.
We cannot demotivate people from forcing ‘Samskruth’ to be studied like ‘Prakrut’ by Historicity of Samskrutham.
I rest my case.
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संस्कृत संवादः
संस्कृत संवादः
BVK Sastry (G-S-Pop)
Namaste
On < On a lighter note, Let this case of yours rest in peace. >
I reciprocate the same to you with the visual, summarizing the views exchanged in this thread:
Views expressed- Deliberations divergent - Conclusions Incomplete! The Key issues raised ‘rest in peace’.
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लोकेश
> वदतु संस्कृतम् इत्यत्र नास्ति भवच्छब्दः अतः अनुपस्थितौ मध्यमपुरुषः अर्हः। इत्येवं वद संस्कृतम् इति शुद्धम्।
यदि भवच्छब्दः युष्मच्छब्दश्च समानार्थकौ स्यातां तर्हि "युष्मद्युपपदे समानाधिकरणे स्थानिन्यपि मध्यम" इति नियमस्य प्रसक्तिः स्यात् । ततः भवच्छब्दान्वये सर्वदा मध्यमपुरुषः भवितव्यः । तथा तु न दृश्यते । भवद्योगे प्रथम अपि दृश्यते ।