Aurveda, Jyotis'a and Vedanta

[N.R.Joshi]

April 1, 2016

 

Respected  scholars, Namaskar!

 

I enjoyed reading scholarly discussion om mantras, aayurveda and jyotis'a.

 

In the past on BVP scholars expressed their views on Aayurveda, Jyotis'a and Vedanta being connected with each other.

 

We all need medicine because we all get sick in our life. We need doctor and drugs to cure us. So My question is -How the connection among Aayurveda, Jyotis'a and Vedanta translate in curing the patient sufferring from a particular disease, say ditheria or aids or Cancer?

 

 Indian science of Aayurveda has many positive points. Many remedies based on herbal medicine work and people have experience their curing effects.

 

In my opinion science of medicine is one thing and Vedanta (Brahman Satyam, Jagat Mithya) is altogether different thing and horoscope of the patient is third thing. Different astrologic systems and their practitioners do not agree with each other.

 

Behind allopathic medicine and drugs there is science of Chemistry, Botany, Pharmacy, Biochemistry  and certain principles are tested experimentally and accepted as working under all circumstances. What settled principles are used in connecting Aayurveda, Jyotis'a and Vedanta? Please enlighten us so we grow in our knowledge with you. Thanks. N.R.Joshi

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Dear Dr Joshi,

Please provide links to the BVP threads where it was meantioned that (a) Ayurveda is connected to Vedanta (b) Jyotisha is connected to Vedanta (c) Ayurveda, Jyotisha and Vedanta are connected to each other

Jyotisha and Ayurveda are never viewed as connected to each other. But there is a section of phalitajyotisha that deals with the astrology of health. There could be health practitioners who combine their astrology of health with their Ayurvedic practice. Majority of the Ayurvedic practitioners today, coming out with their degrees such as BAMS (parallel to MBBS) do not pay attention to astrology of health at all. Most of them do not know about it. Those who know do not believe in it.

I can not imagine anyone saying (a) Ayurveda is connected to Vedanta (b) Jyotisha is connected to Vedanta (c) Ayurveda, Jyotisha and Vedanta are connected to each other

Ayurveda is connected to Yoga.

There is an established tradition of viewing Ayurveda, Yoga and VyaakaraNadars'ana as a mutually connected triad, as a group of 'cleansing' / depolluting sciences.

Ayurveda students are taught tarka for logical thinking.

Just as allopathic medicine forms part of modern studies containing Botany, Chemistry etc. , Ayurveda makes part of classical Indian studies containing different vaidika dars'anas and other practical sciences of those times such as swarna vidyaa , lohavidyaa, rasavidyaa etc.

As long as traditional Sanskrit scholars are imagined to be a bunch of superstitious vestiges of the past, there shall be attempts to help Sanskrit scholarship out of such superstitions.

My experience with traditional scholars is that most of them I know pity even those who believe in evil spirit possession etc. as paamarajana. But I never saw them arguing with those believers.

If the traditional scolar knows Ayurveda, he treats the symptoms that those believers treat as evil spirit possession as some kind of a vaatadOsha or pittaprakopa, and helps them through traditional treatment without contradicting their belief. 

Regards,

Nagaraj

 

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

[Kalicharan Tuvij]

नमस्ते ।

Vedanta talks about ब्रह्म देवता (प्रातिपदिक - ब्रह्मन्), that the Veda is largely silent about. Veda lent this secret to Vedanta so that ब्रह्म भक्ति would survive. Just as Veda lent other secrets to other Vaidika streams (ensuring no overload to any one stream).

Vedanta is therefore, in no way, the sole proprietor of the Vedic legacy. Vedanta is part, not whole. सांख्य is not वेदांत, मीमांसा is not वेदांत, व्याकरण is not वेदांत, ज्योतिष is not वेदांत, etc; Vedanta is not even "the best of them all" — because in the Immortal Language of Veda, there is no "high and low" or "best and worst".

All the Vaidika streams, are just that : streams; and the overarching, superlatively sophisticated Veda is the Fountainhead. Oddly, it is the "Village Hindu", not the शास्त्री, who retained the memory of this simple knowledge.

Here let me expand the meaning of the word संवर्तन. In material Sciences this idea is known as homomorphism, in life sciences as homology. In simple words संवर्तन (सम् together + वर्तन mutation) means a kind of equivalence between two structures (faith, knowledge or aesthetics systems) where, even though the jargon is not mutual or even of one type, all consistencies are commonly shared.

संवर्तन is a naturalistic principle that can be used to realise worlds (sometimes a Mahabharata, sometimes Cryptology, sometimes Crystallography, sometimes the cult of Durgā, sometimes the larger worlds of a Riemann or a Kähler, sometimes Yoga, and so on) .

संवर्तन is, furthermore, a precise mechanism - and not something allegorical, poetical, philosophical, "protoscience". To know if a relation (between two structures) is संवर्तन or not, the basic requirement is to ascertain the acknowledged location of कुमार in both systems and also the kind of defining morphism that connects the two कुमारs.

Because संवर्तन is a naturalistic principle, or धर्म, of the nature of things, it is either organically evolved through a series of hits and trials (like homology in the history of evolution) interspersed with the interventions of an अवतार here, an अङ्गिरस् there, an Einstein here or a Ramanujan there.

For example, Yoga fits the description and is therefore a संवर्तिन् of वेद. Some other schools, in main those supported by the taxpayer, lost their way - not far downstream the Fountainhead - by the way of being unable to filter down low talent and courtiers.

Neither Ayurveda nor Atharvaveda is a Veda (just because of the word Veda in the name), but at least in the case of Ayurveda we intuitively know that संवर्तन is present. Even in ज्योतिष, in particular among the Southern traditions, all the pillars (even if damaged) of संवर्तन are clearly visible from a mile.

संवर्तन is the only basis of sure knowledge / realisation. In the absence of it, we see two types of foundational mistakes even the well meaning ज्ञाणीs commit:

a) propagating a "conspiracy theory" (at different levels of sophistication). For example, there can be a highly knowledgeable (and sincere) person who may believe that " Jews are the cause of all misery in the world". This will give him an infinite explanatory power (he can invoke the Jew hand behind any cause).

Making "a Jew out of ब्रह्मन्", by veering all the way from नेति नेति to सर्वम् खलु, is another example.

b) making as many number of rules as there are the number of facts (that the rules intend to explain). For example, creating two thousand rules in a grammar where there are two thousand base words. So to explain नहि नहि one relies on the random anecdote involving Shankaracharya, and for नेति नेति some other factoid, and so on. Such systems result in nil explanatory power (inability to deal with new facts).

Now that I have really got to a position with about the right context for discussing संवर्तन as well as the efficacy (including the correct approach for R&D) of Ayurveda, I find that I've already written a long piece. Perhaps, later then.

Regards,
KT

[Shrivathsa B]

hariH OM,

   One doesn't know which is the appropriate place for all this pompous and high sounding gibberish of Kalicharan mahaashaya. It is based on a wrong understanding of our tradition (e.g. pl see him claiming uttaramiimaaMsaa not to be miimaaMsaa, atharva not to be a Veda etc.). Not only that, his arguments are based on a paribhAShA which is coined by him and used for the sole purpose of putting down well established paribhAShA.

   He is so un-selfconscious that he is indeed making the right statement (about you-know-who) that a ""Village Hindu", not the शास्त्री, who retained the memory of this simple knowledge."

   If he is here to redeem the unlettered (pun intended) from their darkness, it is better to have a formal diikShaa and only those meritorious diikShitas be allowed to learn such esoteric stuff. Let the poor and wretched knowledge seeker be left to his devices and be spared of KT's wisdom. The condescension in his posts and unsubstantiated arguments are insufferable. In case KT wants us to suffer his amorphous ideas, let him present his whole body of work for scholarly evaluation rather than let the hapless knowledge seeker suffer his saMj~nA and paribhAShA in painful instalments.

svasti,
       JAYA BHAVAANII BHAARATII,
                                                      shrivathsa.

[sunil bhattacharjya]

Dear Kalicharanji,

Lord Krishna said that Vedas are traigunyavishayA. The four Vedas are very valid,  but the Vedas are aparA vidyA as compared to the Upanishad, which is considered parA VidyA,  Vedanta is the essence of the Veda. So one should not denigrate the Vedanta.

Regards,

Sunil K.Bhattacharjya

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[Jsr Prasad]

Dear Kalicharanji,

Your reply has nothing to do with the questions raised by sri Joshi. Merits and demerits of your hypothesis on 'samvartana' etc. can be discussed by members in a separate thread. Interested may respond to that. But we need not to fall in an 'aavartana' in this thread, diluting the spirit of questions raised.

Regards,
Prasad

[Dr.BVK Sastry (G-Mail-pop)]

Namaste Patuari and Joshi ji

 

This is about the question on interconnectedness and in-connectedness of  three disciplines  on which Sri Nagaraj Paturi responds to Sri N R Joshi . The original question  reads: < What settled principles are used in connecting Aayurveda, Jyotis'a and Vedanta?   >.

 

The settled principle is called ‘ Dukha – Pareekshaa paddhati and  Chikitsaa –Parihaara Anushaasanam’ :  Diagnostic Analytics  of Suffering and Methods for remedy, managing and  dissolving  all suffering’.

This understanding is spread all over the deliberations in all three disciplines; stated upfront and can be understood by traditional Yoga way of understanding Samskruth words coupled with live practices.

 

This issue is deeply related and opens up another  battle front  to be addressed in ‘The Battle for Sanskrit’ and importance of restoring ‘Yoga way of learning-using Samskrutham’ which comes as a part of ‘Vedic Linguistics’  (Traditional name: Vedanga Vyakarana Vak-Yoga Shaastra Paddhati).

 

I am sharing my view on this thread, indented in the post,  as it is deeply related to the distorted and diluted teaching-practice and trends of three disciplines :  Ayurveda, Jyotisha and Vedanta in current studies in many universities and with several practitioners. The closing thought I propose to contemplate is this: Beyond raising questions and placing wish-lists, when are resources going to be mobilized to show positive commitment and action in time-lines  in this ‘ Tradition survival and surveillance debates? ?  Will the Home team act OR allow Global players to gallop and swallow the Home team?

 

The big picture for all three disciplines ‘ Ayurveda- Jyotisha-Vedanta’  is that they are  integrated offshoots and branches of Vedic- Yoga practices for ‘Human Welfare’.  By design, they are  to work together to deliver  their goal for  ‘alleviation of  suffering at all levels of Body, Mind and Jeeva’. This is the ‘Viniyoga of Samskruth’: The practical application of Samskruth in profession with a professionalism beyond ‘ classical language scholarship’.  ( My friend Dr. Yadu Moharir keeps stressing on this point).   This ‘ Prime Vision and directive, the root connection of the three disciplines above with Yoga’  is messed up due to inept translations and inaccurate alignment of ‘ Vedic Total Health care’  in to the Abrahamic Theological frame of ‘ Sin Suffering Salvation’.  The Vedic model of  Total Health Care covers three aspects  ‘Paapa naasha – Dukha abhighaata –Moksha Praapti -   jijnyasa’ .  The outcome of this deliberation is  ‘Yoga practices that connect and permeate all three disciplines above’.  This is the in- and integral connection of three disciplines. This understanding can be gleaned from the  analysis of the Samskruth words :  ‘Ayurveda as ‘Ayur-Yoga -Shaastra’; The use of Jyotisha for ‘Ayurdaaya nirnaya’ (12^th house) ; the use of Vedanta for Moksha as sarva dukha nivrutti’ . 

 

 Here below are my additional inputs :

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

BVK Sastry ( on  ) :

 

------------------------

 

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Nagaraj Paturi
Sent: Saturday, 02 April, 2016 12:02 AM
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Aurveda, Jyotis'a and Vedanta

 

Dear Dr Joshi,

 

Please provide links to the BVP threads where it was meantioned that (a) Ayurveda is connected to Vedanta (b) Jyotisha is connected to Vedanta (c) Ayurveda, Jyotisha and Vedanta are connected to each other. Jyotisha and Ayurveda are never viewed as connected to each other.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

BVK Sastry ( on Jyotisha and Ayur-veda connection ) :  The disciplines are in connected and interdependent to deliver their goals.  The training of Ayurveda Vaidya and Vaidya-practice, as per source texts  demands  that Vaidya should use the inputs from ‘Jyotisha’ to make diagnostics of the disease. Jyotisha is a ‘ Pareekshaa  and Parihaara Chikitsaa Shaastra in case disease source is traced to Daiva’.

 

        It is a pity that post independence Indian design of Ayur-veda education leading to  < BAMS course structure>  designed to be parallel / equivalent (? ) in terms of colonial model  social status and greed for  money earning, did most unpardonable things to tradition .

 

First, was the sacrifice of the ‘Veda (Sacred knowledge) and Ayush (Life-longevity- rejuvenation) ’ studies part of Ayur-veda. These got substituted by ‘reductionist model  medicine- pill prescriptions for pain relief medication’.  This approach destroyed the Spirituality and  Theory base of the discipline.

 

Second. Ayurveda- training education and practice  gave up the ‘Paninian Sanskrit studies’ and  voluntarily  embraced  the ‘ PIE linguistics model of Sanskrit studies, coming with Abrahamic Theology’.  This adaption destroyed the base of text and language of Ayur-veda as a Vedic discipline.  

 

Third and most critical : A blind eye was turned to upgrade and  catch up developments in modern medical science for  investigation, diagnostics, pharma-practices; the failure to understand ‘Why antibiotic’ as a ‘Audhadha –Dravya’ was necessary to treat ‘ jvara’?!  This was a failure to vision and  deliver the ‘ Primary responsibility of a Vaidya Training and efficacious  practice’. The key guidance is : ‘Rogaarthasya Prashanmanam, Swasthasya Swaasthya rakshanam’ ( = Pain Alleviation is first priority for the patient; Securing the Health intact is the priority for all others  )   was forgotten; the over reliance on ‘ mantra and jyotisha’ by Ayurveda was a result of ‘  Failure to properly identify the cause of suffering using right diagnostics and tools  and then prescribe he right part of ‘ aushadha –mantra  combination ‘ as chikitsaa for disease by Vaidya’.

 

The combined result of all this is  ‘ Ayur-veda –Atharva Veda related  sacred healing mantra given by Dhanvantari ’ became a ‘ Praise, Prayer, lip sympathy and  faith –practice to the founder of Green Medicine system’.  The ‘Pranacharya’ system of ‘ Ayur-veda-Vaidya as a  Higher Energy and Life giving medicine provider’ just got murdered in the hands of ‘Ayur-Veda education proponents for their own preference to be aligned with the ‘White-mans medical practices’. Which part and parcel of  Ayur-veda educationists in India  were responsible for this would be an interesting investigation to see and write an illuminating paper titled  ‘ The Death of Ayur-veda’ like ‘ The Death of Sanskrit’.

 

------------------------

 

But there is a section of phalitajyotisha that deals with the astrology of health. There could be health practitioners who combine their astrology of health with their Ayurvedic practice. Majority of the Ayurvedic practitioners today, coming out with their degrees such as BAMS (parallel to MBBS) do not pay attention to astrology of health at all. Most of them do not know about it. Those who know do not believe in it.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

BVK Sastry ( on Phala jyotisha  ) : The mistake that happened with Ayurveda happened with Vedanga Jyotisha  also. Phala-Jyotisha is for ‘Muhurtha :Auspicious Time determination for Dharma Shaastra’. These teams had no business to meddle with ‘ Jyotisha as Pareekshaa –Pariahara Shaastra stream of Ayurveda’.  Ayurveda gave up use of ‘Jytosiha as Dukha pareekshaa Shaastra and Parihara Shaastra ( if solution is in Daiva vyapashraya)’.  And the gap was filled by ‘Phala-Jyotisha practitioners’! Which part and parcel of  Vedanga –Jyotisha  educationists in India  were responsible for this would be an interesting investigation to see and write an illuminating paper titled  ‘ The Death of Jyotisha as a Pareekshaa and Parihara Shaastra’ like ‘ The Death of Sanskrit’.  

------------------------

 

I can not imagine anyone saying (a) Ayurveda is connected to Vedanta (b) Jyotisha is connected to Vedanta (c) Ayurveda, Jyotisha and Vedanta are connected to each other.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

BVK Sastry ( on Vedanta  ) :  When Ayur-veda gave up its alliance, affiliation and allegiance to Veda, When Vedanga-Jyotisha gave up its alliance, affiliation and allegiance to Vedanga,  the Vedanta schools were left with no choice to be content getting labeled as Philosophies isolated from Theology and Ritual practical – advocated for the ‘ mendicants ( = yati) ‘ Moksha Shaastra’. It was driving out ‘Vedanta’ from practical  health care discipline of Ayur-veda.

 

Which part and parcel of  Veda/ Yoga –Vedanta  educationists in India  were responsible for this would be an interesting investigation to see and write an illuminating paper titled  ‘ The Death of Vedanta as ultimate Dukha-Pareekshaa and Parihara Shaastra’ like ‘ The Death of Sanskrit’.  

 

------------------------

 

Ayurveda is connected to Yoga.  There is an established tradition of viewing Ayurveda, Yoga and VyaakaraNadars'ana as a mutually connected triad, as a group of 'cleansing' / depolluting sciences.

Ayurveda students are taught tarka for logical thinking.  Just as allopathic medicine forms part of modern studies containing Botany, Chemistry etc. , Ayurveda makes part of classical Indian studies containing different vaidika dars'anas and other practical sciences of those times such as swarna vidyaa , lohavidyaa, rasavidyaa etc.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

BVK Sastry ( on Ayurveda connected to yoga ) : In the past, prior to 17^th century, Ayur-veda shifted its Philosophical affiliation from Vedanta to Samkhya  to cover up ‘ The Ishwara –God issue’ as a part of Healing Health Philosophy. Probably Buddhist influences were responsible for this.  The Samkhya Darshana part of explaining ‘Prakruti –evolutes’ has many similarities with Vedanta; and the properties of evolutes is explained in other Darshana Shaastras like Nyaya and Vaisheshika. It is drawing on details explained in other discipline; it is not switching affiliations of Darshana.

 

The other vidyas mentioned are advancement part of Ayurveda-Chemistry and Pharma in the areas of metallurgy and related.

 

------------------------

 

As long as traditional Sanskrit scholars are imagined to be a bunch of superstitious vestiges of the past, there shall be attempts to help Sanskrit scholarship out of such superstitions.  

My experience with traditional scholars is that most of them I know pity even those who believe in evil spirit possession etc. as paamarajana. But I never saw them arguing with those believers.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

BVK Sastry ( on Sanskrit scholars ) :  Who is to take responsibility for ‘redefining the role of Sanskrit Scholars’ and clean their wares ? and decor? Crying foul and Vishaada –Yoga is not going to make the  Kurukshetra war win ! Not the books and journal articles.  The ‘Mokshaarthi’ needs to become an ‘Artha-artee’ for Aarti-naashanam’ in the frame of Gita (7-16 )- chatur-vidha bhajante mam, janah sukrtino 'rjuna, arto jijnasur artharthi jnani ca bharatarsabha.  

 

------------------------

 

If the traditional scholar knows Ayur-veda, he treats the symptoms that those believers treat as evil spirit possession as some kind of a vaatadOsha or pittaprakopa, and helps them through traditional treatment without contradicting their belief. 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

BVK Sastry ( if traditional scholar knows Ayur-Veda..  ) :  There is lot more to be done in the current education system in universities and other places to redefine their ways to give the output of unified ‘ Scholar with unified vision and training as ‘Bahu Shrutah – Bahu Shaastrajnah- Bahu jana-desha-bhashaa -abhijnah ’ – whether it is ‘ unified knowledge of just traditional disciplines OR  exposed to the inter-disciplinary study of traditional and modern disciplines –languages –writings and practices in 21 st century, global’.  There is a long way to catch up !

 

------------------------

 

Regards,

 

Nagaraj

 

 

On Sat, Apr 2, 2016 at 3:16 AM, N.R.Joshi <gira...@juno.com> wrote:

April 1, 2016

 

Respected  scholars, Namaskar!

 

I enjoyed reading scholarly discussion om mantras, aayurveda and jyotis'a.

 

In the past on BVP scholars expressed their views on Aayurveda, Jyotis'a and Vedanta being connected with each other.

 

We all need medicine because we all get sick in our life. We need doctor and drugs to cure us. So My question is -How the connection among Aayurveda, Jyotis'a and Vedanta translate in curing the patient sufferring from a particular disease, say ditheria or aids or Cancer?

 

 Indian science of Aayurveda has many positive points. Many remedies based on herbal medicine work and people have experience their curing effects.

 

In my opinion science of medicine is one thing and Vedanta (Brahman Satyam, Jagat Mithya) is altogether different thing and horoscope of the patient is third thing. Different astrologic systems and their practitioners do not agree with each other.

 

Behind allopathic medicine and drugs there is science of Chemistry, Botany, Pharmacy, Biochemistry  and certain principles are tested experimentally and accepted as working under all circumstances. What settled principles are used in connecting Aayurveda, Jyotis'a and Vedanta? Please enlighten us so we grow in our knowledge with you. Thanks. N.R.Joshi

--

Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

[Nagaraj Paturi]

This thread is unnecessarily going haywire.

Pertinent questions here are:

1. Is phalajyotisha (of health, what they nowadays call medical astrology), part of either the theory or practice of Ayurveda? 

Answer to this question is an emphatic 'no'. Texts on Ayurveda do not include phalajyotisha. All vaidyas /bhishaks may not follow phalajyotisha as part of their Ayurvedic practice. Some vaidyas /bhishaks may use their phalajyotisha knowledge. But that they do to make all the 'resources' of knowledge at their disposal, but not as part of the tradition of practice of Ayurveda.

2. Aetiological discussions in Ayurvedic texts always involve tridosha analysis only and not phalajyotisha aspects. Just as 'aetiology not known' or 'cryptogenic' is recognized in allopathy, the same is recognized in Ayurveda. When such an intriguing situation occurs, the patient may approach a phalajyotisha expert for an explanation and 'remedy' or if the vaidya has confidence in his own phalajyotisha knowledge, may himself resort to finding a 'source' and 'remedy' through that knowledge. This, he does not do as part of the Ayurvedic system, but does on account of his personal belief system and related knowledge, that is not necessarily connected to Ayurveda as a field. Seeking supernatural intervention when the rational attempts fail, is a tendency found in human beings of a certain orientation all over the world. Incidentally humans with this orientation are far higher in numbers than those who do not seek any such intervention and resign to the answers provided by the rational analysis. Allopathic practitioners and their patients too all over the world, resort to supernatural intervention in conjunction with, or after the failure of the rational attempts. Huge number of Christian resources are available, so much that just a casual net search yield results such as this or this, or this or so many like that.

3. The Advaita Vedantic lines quoted by Dr Joshi, do not make all the Vedanta. Even within Advaita Vedanta when Gajam is faced by Sankara, palaayanam is the wise solution and the answer for why Gajam can not be ignored as mithyaa is, "gajam mithyaa, palaayanam mithyaa. So no wise Vedantin uses the dry Vedantic arguments in the diagnosis or treatment of diseases.

4. Efficacy of mantras is a different question already discussed in the older threads of BVP.      

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

The reason the thread is going haywire is the subject line of the thread itself is difficult to understand. There is philosophy of Aurveda, elements or some generic principles Jyotisa are used in Aurveda but it’s difficult to find any advaita vedanta in aurveda. One can find Mantra Shastra in Aurveda but Mantra Shastra by itself is a different subject. Parading a long lengthy confusing email by a member without any quotes from the original texts or published secondary literature has also diverted the intent of this thread. The concepts and issues involved in this thread has been rightly summarised by Prof. Paturi

[rniyengar]

Namaste.

Excellent discussion by Dr.Paturi. Actual present day practices, beliefs can be vastly different from what is said or argued in the ancient texts.  I have seen very often in the BVP discussions the two are mixed up. Textual analysis is essential part of academic work, this should not be mixed up with later tradition clubbed under "Smrti" however strong it might have been emotionally. Keeping Ayurvedic texts of Charaka and Sushruta as focus, for my own education, I like to ask the following questions;

1. Are there are references to Seasons, Nakshatras and Efficacy of time? If yes, can this be considered Jyotisha? Of course this is not of the Horoscopic kind, and AFAIK the above ancient stalwarts have not mentioned Horoscopes.

2. Did the ancient authors of Ayurveda, consider only the Annamaya-kosha or did they deal in their logic, analysis and etiology with PraaNamaya and Manomaya koshas too. Even if they did not use such specific terminology, could there have been a theoretical link to the Upanishads such as the MahaanaaraayaNa which originated such terminology?

Thanks 

RN Iyengar

[Anilkumar Veppatangudi]

It seems strange to me that the term Vedanta is used as referring to a separate entity. To my limited knowledge, Vedanta means end of Vedas referring to Upanishads. I was also amused to read that 'Vedanta means end of Knowledge' which goes totally against our tradition of non-absolutism. It is said, as you all know, in the Mundakopanishad that there is a greater Knowledge(Para) than Vedas and Vedangas(Apara). Apart from the four Vedas, Vedangas are six - Shiksha, Nirukta, Chandas, Vyakarana, Jyotisha and Kalpa. Jyotisha here means as far as I know, Astronomy and not Astrology.

Dr.V.R.Anil Kumar

http://www.kalpaheritage.org

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Thanks Prof. Iyengar, for finding the observations useful.

> Are there are references to Seasons, Nakshatras and Efficacy of time?

------  One of the superior features of Ayurveda over modern medicine is to incorporate the effect of seasons on the tridhatu balance of the body. This helped Ayurveda to provide a season-wise pathya for healthy living. Effects of the time of the day, moon phases etc. on body also are meticulously observed and formulated. Nakshatra-wise seasonal (karate) features are included some books.

>If yes, can this be considered Jyotisha?

------ This is a study of the  effects of conditions on the Earth and not a study of planets or stars on the body conditions.

> Did the ancient authors of Ayurveda, consider only the Annamaya-kosha or did they deal in their logic, analysis and etiology with PraaNamaya and Manomaya koshas too.

------- They did of course deal with praaNamaya and manOmaya kOs'as. It is a well known fact that it is in Ayurveda that we have such a meticulous analysis of praaNas as pancha praaNas at one level and their more micro levels at a deeper level. All the srotases / naaDis through which these praaNa 'vibrations' pass, their interconnecrions, their effects on different dhatus etc. are all meticulously analysed only in Ayurveda. Some of these correspond with neurological aspects, some not.

It is the holistic aspect of Ayurveda that makes it include the mutual effects of body and mind. Certain mental orientations are prescribed alongside food and medicines for different diseases. Psychological conditions including the psychiatric ones are treated through medicines in this system.

 > Even if they did not use such specific terminology, could there have been a theoretical link to the Upanishads such as the MahaanaaraayaNa which originated such terminology?

--------- Upanishads and Ayurvedic texts have mutual borrowings of terms and concepts is well known. But sometimes the terms seem to have different meanings in these two systems. For example, praaNas may be common, some naaDis may be common. But some naaDis of, say, kaThopanishad may be different than the ones discussed in Ayurveda.

My knowledge of these issues is limited to that of a student of culture.

There could be more than what I could observe in this regard.

Humbly,

Nagaraj

 

On Sun, Apr 3, 2016 at 1:25 PM, rniyengar <narayana...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Nagaraj Paturi]

This is a study of the  effects of conditions on the Earth and not a study of planets or stars on the body conditions.

should be

This is a study of the  effects of conditions on the Earth and not a study of effects of planets or stars on the body conditions.

[Dr. Yadu Moharir]

Dear List

Just came across the book Entitled: "The Art and Science of Vedic Counseling"

by David Frawley and  Suhas Kshirsagar

Available at Amazon.com

http://tinyurl.com/hvp7mqt

Book has a chapter Specific Approaches of  Vedic Counseling - Vedic Astroogy & Vastu

I have not yet read this book do intend to read it in the near future.

May be if David Frawley (Pandit vamadeva Shastri a recepient of Padma Bhushan)  (I am not sure whether he is on this List or not) could possibly elaborate on the specific concepts of Vedic Astrology that are currently being used ? 

Dr Yadu

---

From: Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com>
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sunday, April 3, 2016 3:33 AM

[Nagaraj Paturi]

> May be if David Frawley (Pandit vamadeva Shastri a recepient of Padma Bhushan)  (I am not sure whether he is on this List or not) could possibly elaborate on the specific concepts of Vedic Astrology that are currently being used ? 

------ Do you mean ' the specific concepts of Vedic Astrology that are currently being used'  or 'the specific concepts of Vedic Astrology that are currently being used' in the practice of Ayurveda?

Either way, we need not all the way trouble David Frawley   (Pandit vamadeva Shastri a recepient of Padma Bhushan). I saw posts from highly knowledgeable scholars of Vedic Astrology, Ayurveda both. Some could be on the list silently observing. They can be requested to help us if there is a pointed question.   

Siince 'the specific concepts of Vedic Astrology that are currently being used'  is  too general and too vast a topic without a pointed objective, not relevant to the current thread,  'the specific concepts of Vedic Astrology that are currently being used in the practice of Ayurveda'   which is relevant to the current thread can be addressed to those members of the list who are experts in Vedic Astrology and Ayurveda.

[Nagaraj Paturi]

When the issue of  'the specific concepts of Vedic Astrology that are currently being used in the practice of Ayurveda'   which is relevant to the current thread is addressed to the  those members of the list who are experts in Vedic Astrology and Ayurveda, they already have the following observation by Nagaraj to respond to :  

 

Is phalajyotisha (of health, what they nowadays call medical astrology), part of either the theory or practice of Ayurveda? 

 

Answer to this question is an emphatic 'no'. Texts on Ayurveda do not include phalajyotisha. All vaidyas /bhishaks may not follow phalajyotisha as part of their Ayurvedic practice. Some vaidyas /bhishaks may use their phalajyotisha knowledge. But that they do to use all the 'resources' of knowledge at their disposal, but not as part of the tradition of practice of Ayurveda.

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Or, if, by 'the specific concepts of Vedic Astrology that are currently being used', you meant 'the specific concepts of Vedanga Jyotisha or Siddhanta bhaaga of ancient Indian Jyotisha that are currently being used in the current practice of phalajyotisha', may I request you to note, though not directly relevant to the thread, that the word 'Vedic Astrology' is connotatively being used all over, currently, in the sense of phalajyotisha only. For example, if you download a software with the name 'Vedic Astrology software' or if you see a book with the title 'Introduction to Vedic Astrology' , it is always related phalajyotisha only in the current parlance. 

[Ramachandran Mahadevan]

The name Veda is used not only for Vedic concepts.

A website is created for TAX VEDA

To make people aware of tax knowledge.

Ramachandran MAHADEVAN 

Bangalore 

Sent from my iPad

[Giridhar Vedantam]

Namaste.

Here we can find some references in Ayurveda showing its relation with Vedic knowledge.

Cikitsa types in Ayurveda

1. Daivavyapasraya 2. Yuktivyapasraya & 3. Sattvavajaya

Caraka Samita -सूत्रस्थानम् - ११. तिस्रैषणीयोऽध्यायः

त्रिविधमौषधमिति- दैवव्यपाश्रयं, युक्तिव्यपाश्रयं, सत्त्वावजयश्च |

तत्र दैवव्यपाश्रयं- मन्त्रौषधिमणिमङ्गलबल्युपहारहोमनियमप्रायश्चित्तोपवासस्वस्त्ययनप्रणिपातगमनादि, युक्तिव्यपाश्रयं- पुनराहारौषधद्रव्याणां योजना, सत्त्वावजयः- पुनरहितेभ्योऽर्थेभ्यो मनोनिग्रहः ||५४||

आयुर्वेददीपिका व्याख्या (चक्रपाणिदत्त कृत):

दैवमदृष्टं तद्व्यपाश्रयं, तच्च यददृष्टजननेन व्याधिप्रत्यनीकं मन्त्रादि; यदि वा दैवशब्देन देवा उच्यन्ते, तानाश्रित्य यदुपकरोति तत्तथा; मन्त्रादयो हि देवप्रभावादेव व्याधिहराः, बल्युपहारादिप्रीताश्च देवा एव प्रभावाद्व्याधीन् घ्नन्ति| अत्र दैवव्यपाश्रयमादावुक्तमाशुव्याधिहरत्वेन| प्रणिपातो देवादीनां शारीरो नमस्कारः, गमनं विदूरदेवादिगमनम्||५४||

 

Caraka Samhita -विमानस्थानम् - ८. रोगभिषग्जितीयविमानम्

करणं पुनर्भेषजम् |

भेषजं नाम तद्यदुपकरणायोपकल्पते भिषजो धातुसाम्याभिनिर्वृत्तौ प्रयतमानस्य विशेषतश्चोपायान्तेभ्यः |

तद्द्विविधं व्यपाश्रयभेदात्- दैवव्यपाश्रयं, युक्तिव्यपाश्रयं चेति |

तत्र दैवव्यपाश्रयं- मन्त्रौषधिमणिमङ्गलबल्युपहारहोमनियमप्रायश्चित्तोपवासस्वस्त्ययनप्रणिपातगमनादि, युक्तिव्यपाश्रयं- संशोधनोपशमने चेष्टाश्च दृष्टफलाः |

एतच्चैव भेषजमङ्गभेदादपि द्विविधं- द्रव्यभूतमः, अद्रव्यभूतं च |

तत्र यदद्रव्यभूतं तदुपायाभिप्लुतम् |

उपायो नाम भयदर्शनविस्मापनविस्मारणक्षोभणहर्षणभर्त्सनवधबन्धस्वप्नसंवाहनादिरमूर्तो भावविशेषो यथोक्ताः सिद्ध्युपायाश्चोपायाभिप्लुता [१] इति |

यत्तु द्रव्यभूतं तद्वमनादिषु योगमुपैति |

आयुर्वेददीपिका व्याख्या (चक्रपाणिदत्त कृत):

विशेषतश्चोपायान्तेभ्य इत्यनेन कार्ययोनिप्रवृत्तिदेशकालोपायेभ्योऽन्यद्यद्यत् कर्तुरुपकरणं भवति तत् करणमिति [३] दर्शयति| कार्ययोनिर्हि लोके विकार्यकर्मतया साधकतमात् करणात् पृथगुच्यते, प्रवृत्त्युपाययोस्तु कर्तृकरणादिधर्मत्वेन न करणसञ्ज्ञा, देशकालौ तु न साधकतमौ; तेनोपायान्तेभ्यो यथोक्तविशेषेण यत् कर्तुरुपकरणं भवति, तत् करणम्| अत्र दैवव्यपाश्रययुक्तिव्यपाश्रयद्वैविध्ये तु सत्त्वावजयोऽपि भेषजमवरुद्धं ज्ञेयं; सत्त्वावजयो हि दृष्टद्वारोपकारी युक्तिव्यपाश्रये, तथाऽदृष्टद्वारोपकारी तु दैवव्यपाश्रये प्रविशति| अत एवोक्तं युक्तिव्यपाश्रयव्याकरणे- चेष्टाश्च दृष्टफला इति| चेष्टाशब्देन मनश्चेष्टाऽपि सत्त्वावजयलक्षणा गृह्यते| पुनरौषधस्य प्रकारान्तरेण द्वैविध्यमाह- अङ्गभेदादित्यादि| अङ्गं शरीरं स्वरूपमिति यावत्; तेन स्वरूपभेदादित्यर्थः| द्रव्यभूतं द्रव्यरूपम् एवमद्रव्यरूपम्| उपायाभिप्लुतमिति उपायव्याप्तम्, उपायग्रहणगृहीतमिति यावत्| एवं मन्यते- भयादयोऽमूर्ता भावा न साक्षादारोग्यकारणानि भवन्ति, किं तर्हि शरीरस्थितानेव वातादीन् तथा कुर्वन्ति समत्वेनोत्पाद्यमानान् येनारोग्यं भवति, न ह्यमूर्तानि मूर्तानां शरीरधातूनामुत्पत्तौ समवायिकारणानि भवन्ति; भेषजं तु द्रव्यभूतं समशरीरोत्पादे समवायिकारणं भवत्येव, तेन द्रव्यस्यारोग्यं प्रति साधकतमत्वं साधुः अमूर्तानां तु भयादीनां न भेषजवत् साधकतमत्वमिति कृत्वा द्रव्यजन्य एव धातुसाम्ये तेषामुपायत्वं युक्तम्| एवं सूक्ष्मया बुद्ध्या भयादीनामुपायत्वं, स्थूलया तु बुद्ध्या भेषजत्वमपीति कृत्वा भयादिषु भेषजव्यवहारश्चाचार्याभिमतो द्विविधभेषजेऽर्थेऽद्रव्यभूतभयादिग्रहणादुन्नीयते [४] | न केवलमद्रव्यभूतं भेषजमुपायव्याप्तं, किं त्वन्येऽपि परिचारकादय उपायग्रहणगृहीता एवेत्याह- यथोक्ताः सिद्ध्युपायाश्चेति| यथोक्ताः सिद्ध्युपायाः परिचारकादयोऽत्र दशविधपरीक्ष्ये साक्षादनुक्तास्तेऽपि उपायाभिप्लुता एवेत्यर्थः| किंवा उपायाभिप्लुतमिति उपायमिश्रितम्| तत्र भयाद्यमूर्तभेषज एव यथोक्ता उपायाः कारणादिसौष्ठवसम्यगभिविधानरूपा अद्रव्यभूतभेषजपक्षगृहीता इत्यर्थः| तेन, भयादिषु तथोपायशब्दाभिधेयेषु च अद्रव्यभूतभेषजशब्दप्रयोगो भवतीति दर्शयति| ये तु ‘उपायान्ताभिप्लुतम्’ इति पठन्ति, ते देशकालावेव अद्रव्यभूतभेषजमिति वदन्ति; वदन्ति च द्रव्यशब्देन क्वाथकल्काद्युपयोजनीयं द्रव्यमुच्यते इति| एतच्च नातिमनोहारि| अनेन चेति साधनभूतेन च ‘एवम्प्रकृत्या’ इत्यादिनोक्तेन तथा साध्येन च ‘एवंविधस्य पुरुषस्य’ इत्यादिनोक्तेन विशेषेण [५] युक्तमभूदित्यर्थः||८७||

Diava vyapasraya Cikitsa has been indicated in some diseases. e.g.

 

Caraka samitha Cikitsa sthana 3^rd chapter (JvaraCikitsa)

चिकित्सास्थानम् - ३. ज्वरचिकित्सितम्

सोमं सानुचरं देवं समातृगणमीश्वरम्||३१०||

पूजयन् प्रयतः शीघ्रं मुच्यते विषमज्वरात्|

विष्णुं सहस्रमूर्धानं चराचरपतिं विभुम्||३११||

स्तुवन्नामसहस्रेण ज्वरान् सर्वानपोहति|

ब्रह्माणमश्विनाविन्द्रं हुतभक्षं हिमाचलम्||३१२||

गङ्गां मरुद्गणांश्चेष्ट्या [५] पूजयञ्जयति ज्वरान्|

भक्त्या मातुः पितुश्चैव गुरूणां पूजनेन च||३१३||

ब्रह्मचर्येण तपसा सत्येन नियमेन च|

जपहोमप्रदानेन वेदानां श्रवणेन च||३१४||

ज्वराद्विमुच्यते शीघ्रं साधूनां दर्शनेन च|

Cakrapani Commnetary:

दैवव्यपाश्रयचिकित्सामाह- सोममित्यादि| सह उमयेति सोमः, तम्| सानुचरमिति नन्द्यादिगणयुक्तम्| समातृगणमिति समातृसमूहम्| प्रयतः पवित्रः| सहस्रमूर्धनमिति “सहस्रशीर्षा” इत्यादि वेदप्रतिपादितम्| नामसहस्रेणेत्यादि महाभारतोक्तनामसहस्रेण| इष्ट्येति यज्ञेन||३०९-३१६||-

Ca. Ci. 3^rd chapter

शापाभिचाराद्भूतानामभिषङ्गाच्च यो ज्वरः ||३१७||

दैवव्यपाश्रयं तत्र सर्वमौषधमिष्यते |

Ca. ci. 30^th chapter

दैवव्यपाश्रयं चैव भेषजं चाभिचारजे [२] |

समासेनैतदुद्दिष्टं भेषजं क्लैब्यशान्तये ||१९५||

 

आयुर्वेददीपिका व्याख्या (चक्रपाणिदत्त कृत)

व्यवायहेतुजे इतिपदं बीजदोषोत्पन्नसहजव्युदासार्थम्| धातुविपर्ययादिति दोषवैषम्यात्| दैवव्यपाश्रयमित्यादिना अभिचारादिजक्लैब्यचिकित्सां ब्रूते| अभिचारादिजं च क्लैब्यं दैवव्यपाश्रयचिकित्साभिधानादेव स्वीकर्तव्यम्||१९१-१९५||

Disease: Rajayakshma

Caraka Samhita चिकित्सास्थानम् - ८. राजयक्ष्मचिकित्सितम्  -राजयक्ष्मणि वैदिकी इष्टिः

गन्धैः समाल्यैर्वासोभिर्भूषणैश्च विभूषितः||१७९||

स्पृश्यान् संस्पृश्य सम्पूज्य देवताः सभिषग्द्विजाः|

इष्टवर्णरसस्पर्शगन्धवत् पानभोजनम्||१८०||

इष्टमिष्टैरुपहितं सुखमद्यात् [१] सुखप्रदम्|

समातीतानि धान्यानि कल्पनीयानि शुष्यताम्||१८१||

लघून्यहीनवीर्याणि स्वादूनि गन्धवन्ति च|

यानि प्रहर्षकारीणि तानि पथ्यतमानि हि||१८२||

यच्चोपदेक्ष्यते पथ्यं [२] क्षतक्षीणचिकित्सिते|

यक्ष्मिणस्तत् प्रयोक्तव्यं बलमांसाभिवृद्धये||१८३||

अभ्यङ्गोत्सादनैश्चैव वासोभिरहतैः प्रियैः|

यथर्तुविहितैः स्नानैरवगाहैर्विमार्जनैः||१८४||

बस्तिभिः क्षीरसर्पिर्भिर्मांसैर्मांसरसौदनैः|

इष्टैर्मद्यैर्मनोज्ञानां गन्धानामुपसेवनैः||१८५||

सुहृदां रमणीयानां प्रमदानां च दर्शनैः|

गीतवादित्रशब्दैश्च प्रियश्रुतिभिरेव च||१८६||

हर्षणाश्वासनैर्नित्यं गुरूणां समुपासनैः|

ब्रह्मचर्येण दानेन तपसा देवतार्चनैः||१८७||

सत्येनाचारयोगेन मङ्गल्यैरप्यहिंसया|

वैद्यविप्रार्चनाच्चैव रोगराजो निवर्तते||१८८||

यया प्रयुक्तया चेष्ट्या राजयक्ष्मा पुरा जितः|

तां वेदविहितामिष्टिमारोग्यार्थी [३] प्रयोजयेत्||१८९||

 

आयुर्वेददीपिका व्याख्या (चक्रपाणिदत्त कृत)

अतः परं मनस आनुकूल्यं यक्ष्मारम्भकदोषं हन्तीत्यतो सर्वासु चेष्टासु सदैव मनोनुकूलं स्यात्तथैव वर्तनीयं, यया च युक्त्या दैवव्यपाश्रयचिकित्सा कर्तव्या तदाह- गन्धैरित्यादि||१७९-१८९||

Caraka Samhita चिकित्सास्थानम् - ९. उन्मादचिकित्सितम्

उन्मादस्य चिकित्साक्रमः

रत्यर्चनाकामोन्मादिनौ तु भिषगभिप्रायाचाराभ्यां [१] बुद्ध्वा तदङ्गोपहारबलिमिश्रेण|

मन्त्रभैषज्यविधिनोपक्रमेत्||२३||

 

आयुर्वेददीपिका व्याख्या (चक्रपाणिदत्त कृत)

रत्यर्चनार्थिभूतगृहीतचिकित्सामाह- रत्यर्चनेत्यादि| रतिकामोऽर्चनाकामश्च रत्यर्चनाकामौ, ताभ्यामुन्मादितौ रत्यर्चनाकामोन्मादितौ| अभिप्रायाचाराभ्यां बुद्ध्वेति अभिप्रायेण यः काम्यमर्थमिच्छति स रतिकामः, यस्तु पूजामिच्छति स अर्चनाकामः; एवमाचारेण यः काम्यार्थप्राप्त्यर्थं चेष्टते स रतिकामः, योऽर्चनार्थं पुष्पधूपादिकमन्विष्यति [२] सोऽर्चनाकामः, इति बुद्ध्वा तदङ्गरत्युपहारादि कर्तव्यं; तस्या रतेरर्चनायाश्च यदङ्गसाधनं तत्तद्वर्तनेन तत्तदङ्गोपहाररूपबलिना भैषज्यमन्त्रविधिना चोपचारः कर्तव्य इति वाक्यार्थः||२३||

चिकित्सास्थानम् - ९. उन्मादचिकित्सितम्  - भूतोन्मादचिकित्सा

बुद्ध्वा देशं वयः सात्म्यं दोषं कालं बलाबले|

चिकित्सितमिदं कुर्यादुन्मादे भूतदोषजे||८७||

देवर्षिपितृगन्धर्वैरुन्मत्तस्य तु बुद्धिमान्|

वर्जयेदञ्जनादीनि तीक्ष्णानि क्रूरकर्म च||८८||

सर्पिष्पानादि तस्येह मृदु भैषज्यमाचरेत्|

पूजां बल्युपहारांश्च मन्त्राञ्जनविधींस्तथा||८९||

शान्तिकर्मेष्टिहोमांश्च जपस्वस्त्ययनानि च|

वेदोक्तान् नियमांश्चापि प्रायश्चित्तानि चाचरेत्||९०||

भूतानामधिपं देवमीश्वरं जगतः प्रभुम्|

पूजयन् प्रयतो नित्यं जयत्युन्मादजं भयम्||९१||

रुद्रस्य प्रमथा नाम गणा लोके चरन्ति ये|

तेषां पूजां च कुर्वाण उन्मादेभ्यः प्रमुच्यते||९२||

बलिभिर्मङ्गलैर्होमैरोषध्यगदधारणैः|

सत्याचारतपोज्ञानप्रदाननियमव्रतैः||९३||

देवगोब्रह्मणानां च गुरूणां पूजनेन च|

आगन्तुः प्रशमं याति सिद्धैर्मन्त्रौषधैस्तथा||९४||

यच्चोपदेक्ष्यते किञ्चिदपस्मारचिकित्सिते|

उन्मादे तच्च कर्तव्यं सामान्याद्धेतुदूष्ययोः||९५||

 

आयुर्वेददीपिका व्याख्या (चक्रपाणिदत्त कृत)

क्रूरकर्मेति ताडनादिकम्| शान्तिकर्मेत्यादिना दैवव्यपाश्रयचिकित्सामाह| सामान्याद्धेतुदूष्योरिति उन्मादेनापस्मारेण च समो हेतुर्मनोभिघातादिः, दूष्यं च हृदयं समानमित्यर्थः||८७-९५||

  These are some of the references.

Hope I am providing what has been asked.

With regards,

Dr. V. Giridhar M.D.(Ay)
Chief coordinator, Central Research Facility
KLEU's Shri B M Kankanawadi Ayurved Mahavidyalaya
Belagavi, Karnataka, 590003

+919731028625 (Belgaum)
drgiri...@gmail.com

[sadasivamurty rani]

I have been watching all posts on this topic in this thread and I have been waiting for a post like this by Shri Giridhar Vedantam. I sincerely appreciate the efforts of Shri Giridhar ji.

1. If any body asks whether there is relation between Astrology and Ayurveda with their roots in the earliest Ayurvedic texts we can affirmatively say  a BIG "YES". Similarly there is striking relation between Vedanta and Ayurveda too. The major texts on Ayurveda are: Brhat Trayi.  : Charaka, Sushruta and Vabhata. In all these three TEXTS with out any necessity of even depending on the commentaries we can show authentic citations to show the relation between Ayurveda and Astrology and Ayurveda and Vedanta. 

Soon I shall come out with some Textual Quotes from these texts. 

2. Though not directly stated most of the writers on our ancient Indian knowledge systems refuse to talk positively on Predictive Astrology. It is very much unfortunate. 

Usually the prominent argument from these authors is:

 As there are references to Astronomical matters in the Vedas there are no references to Astrological matters. So Astrology,  particularly Predictive part of it is for Bhukti or Bread.

 Here I have some questions: 

1. Is Vedic Tradition confined to Veda Samhitas, Brahmanas, Aranyakas, Upanishads and Sutra literature? 

2. What is the practical experience of these writers with Phalita Jyotisha? How deeply have they studied these texts? 

3. Why cannot those who consider Varahamihira's Brhatsamhita as an authentic  text, cannot consider his Brhajjataka with the same intensity? 

I suggest certain things to those who deny the validity of Predictive Astrology:

Though they deny the validity of this branch of knowledge I am sure most of them do perform all the 15 Samskaras beginning with Garbhadhana in their families usually. . 

1. My  suggestion is let those people approach good Astrological Practitioners and request them to fix the following Muhurtams:

1. Gruha Nirmana (Construction of a house) in Agni Panchaka Muhurta.

2. Gruha Pravesha (Occupying a new house) and Yatra Arambha (Going for a tour) in a Chora Panchaka Muhurta.

3. Yatra (Travel) in a Mrtyu Panchaka Muhurta or in a Roga Panchaka Muhurta.

4. Start a Good Project of Crores of Rupees in Raja Panchaka Muhurta.

5.  Admit a chronic patient in a very good Hospital under the care of excellent team of Doctors in Mrtyu Panchaka Muhurta. 

Then let us see the results of such case studies. 

Next I request all those who deny the validity of Predictive Astrology and those who blame those who earn their bread from this discipline to carefully, sincerely, completely and thoroughly study Brhajjatakam of Varahamihira, Vasishta Samhita and Satyacharya's text and then analyse certain Kundalis and then say whether it is accurate or not. (Careful, Sincere, Complete and Thorough Study and not mere reading is necessary to pass any further comment.).

With warmest regards to all, 

Prof. Rani Sadasiva Murty

---

From: Giridhar Vedantam <drgiri...@gmail.com>
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, 4 April 2016 6:48 PM

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

​On predictive astrology we can have different thread, for I remember having a few astrological related thread a few years back that did not go well.I hope this time it does go well.

I know there a lot of philosophy in Aurvedic texts. May I request scholars to specifically point to books papers that show relationship between Aurveda and Vedanta.

[sunil bhattacharjya]

Dear Prof. Rani Sadasiva Murtyji,

You have rightly voiced your concern when you said as follows:

Quote

2. Though not directly stated most of the writers on our ancient Indian knowledge systems refuse to talk positively on Predictive Astrology. It is very much unfortunate. 

Usually the prominent argument from these authors is:

 As there are references to Astronomical matters in the Vedas there are no references to Astrological matters. So Astrology,  particularly Predictive part of it is for Bhukti or Bread.

Unquote

To my understanding, there are  several reasons for  people's distrust in the predictions of the modern day astrologers, even in the case of health. The predictions have gone haywire as the birth-charts are not properly interpreted by today's astrologer. Some of the pitfalls are:

!. The birth chart tells us about what to expect as due to the past karmas (i.e., karmas of the past life) and these are alterable to a great extent by the Karma in the present life. That is why generally the prediction in case of young people becomes more correct than that in the case of the people of advanced age.

2.. Many of the astrologers do not know that the year for "dasha-bhukti" in the Vimshottari dasha is  sidereal Lunar years and not  Solar  Year. The Vayu purana has given the relation between the Solar year and Manushya varsha as follows:

2700 Solar years = 3030 Manushya varsha.

3. Then there is the free will of the people by which one can nullify many of the results of the past negative actions by resorting to positive actions in the present life.

4. There can be some degree of inherent uncertainty built up in the astrological sysrem, so that unscrupulous people should not be able to misuse the astrology. There is an anecdote that once Maharshi Bhrigu, when asked by someone,  made some predictions about Mother Goddess Parvati and the Mother cursed that nobody would be able to predict the future (absolutely) correctly.

Further elaboration is not possible in this thread, and  that will call for  a separate thread with a separate subject-heading.

Regards,

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

[Kalicharan Tuvij]

This is just to add some references to my earlier post in the thread:

On the canonical position of Atharva:

कौटिलीय अर्थशास्त्रं
१.३.१
साम । ऋग्यजुर्वदा: त्रय: त्रयी
१.३.२
अथर्ववेद इतिहासवेदौ च वेदा:
१.३.३
शिक्षा कल्पो व्याकरणं निरुक्तं छन्दोविचितिर्ज्योतिषं इति चाङ्गानि

That is, त्रय: वेदा: is what we essentially understand as "वेद", and when अथर्ववेद and इतिहासवेद are added to the list, the list becomes, "वेदा:". So a distinction is kept between what is वेद and what is वेदा:, furthermore, इतिहास is considered a part of वेदा: much in the same way अथर्व is.

For detailed introduction to trayovedAH and Atharva:
See the introduction chapter (page xxviii onwards) of The Hymns Of The Atharva-veda (M. Müller):

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=zvNbiZlnCSIC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

Meaning of the word समवर्तिन्
adj.
being of a fair or impartial disposition
being equidistant
being equal
acting uniformly

Source:
http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?tinput=samavartin&script=&direction=SE&link=yes

For Homology (biology):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homology_(biology)

Homomorphism (maths/ physics):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homomorphism

Re Vedanta:
महावाक्यम् (e.g. सर्वम् खलु .. etc) are to Upanishads what शब्द is to वेद — the minimum unit of understanding. Just as शब्द needs the full context of the Line (called मंत्र), a vAkya needs the full context of the paragraph to make correct sense. The only problem is: महावाक्यानि have been quoted out of context for quite some time.

KT

[Venkatakrishna Sastry]

Namaste

On two points focussed by Professor RNI ( and also responding to the issues raised by Professor Paturi - Joshi):  The current discussions are criss crossing and mixing the philosophy and principles recognized in Ayurveda calssical texts and practices ( coming along with their diversities and imperfections in delviering the hyped result-claims from practicitioners; and same with Jyoptisha team ). Many good references given in the posts exchanged shows the integral link of Ayurveda -Yoga -Vedanta and Jyotisha. The ' philosophy of Ayurvedic Medical System' is drawn from Vedas and therfore, Ayurveda can not stray away from 'Vedanta -Yoga and Jyotisha'. How much of this is used in current Ayurveda training, practice and across disciplines  is our problem to address. It is not a reflection on how the sysem was designed by Sages and early writers or Vedic Risihi's visioned it; and certainly not any reflection on modern scientists who have taken a ' narrow and myopic look at the vedic ssytems and practices'. There is a lot to deliberate and research.

Coming to the points raised by RNI,  

A) On the first point:  The reference to Seasons,Nakshatras and Efficacy of Time recognized as a part of Ayurveda Theory and Practice: Charka Chikitsaa-Sthana - 1-21 to 24 clearly mentions by specific words - 'ayana,tithi, nakshatra and specific details which come  from the Vedanga Jyotisha discipline' as an important factor for the practice of Vaidya and administration for ' rasayana'.  This is the guiding principle for practice. 

More specific references of Ayurveda Vaidya utilizing the ' Jyotisha' disicpline deliberated details for preparation of medicine, administration of aushadha and pariharas  are spread over different parts of the work. And some are already covered in the posts.

One point for careful observation in my opinion, in this context is the following ( - an area not researched properly) :  Ayurveda as a discipline seems to be focussing on 'Use of the Natures Energy (Prakruti - Kala - Shakti) following different phases of Moon and Seasons ( using Chandra as a Rasa-kaaraka and Manah Karaka) to match the harmony of medicine power and mind-power ( as linked to  body processes). As a principle, the relation of Moons phases -Body Mind functioning and Energy of Herbs and medicines is well recognized; though modern science may have serious reservations on this; and modern ' bottled and capsuled  Ayur-Veda' practice may not like this ! This is a Vedic Principle that commonly permeates Ayurveda, Yoga, Tantra and Jyotisha.  The way Ayurveda uses  Jyotisha for ' medicine administration' is certainly different from the way Jyotisha (Phala / Muhurtha) discipline uses it taking relation to Jataka.

Then, what could be the view of 'Charaka-Sushruta-Vagbhata from Ayurveda plank' on use of 'Jataka (Horoscopic kind) used for  Phala Jyotisha - Muhurtha  and also used for 'roga (6th house)/ Ayush (8th house)- Death -Ayush (12th house)' analysis?  There seems nothing to rule out that the disciplines worked together yet, not making cross reference in their works.  This 'non-reference / no cross referencing across disciplines' is not uncommon in indian sanskrit writings. This issue may need more research for Textual endorsement substantiating surviving practices.

It would also be interesting to explore how Ayurveda Vaidyas kept their 'medical records and Patient records, uniquely ! Did they entirely rely on their memory ? Or used some mnemonic code? Did they use 'Jataka' as a part of the medical diagnostics and referencing record, as we do know from royal families keeping medical and horoscopic records as 'personal confidential records'? If not what other method was used for social health care records ? What other mode was used to keep track of the ' Patient health hisotry and treatment history' ? Ayurveda as the priamry system of Indian society, a system  which bestowed so much care on Health and Wellness, could not have neglected or overlooked the importance of ' accurate medical records of patients and treatment-hisotry ' so critical for ' research'.

B)    On the second point:    Did the ancient authors of Ayurveda, consider only the Annamaya-kosha or did they deal in their logic, analysis and etiology with PraaNamaya and Manomaya koshas too. Even if they did not use such specific terminology, could there have been a theoretical link to the Upanishads such as the MahaanaaraayaNa which originated such terminology? 
   
           Ayurveda deliberation as a 'Medical Philosophy / Philosophy of Medicine' extended far and deeper than 'Body-Matter treatment'.  The extent of this expanded deliberation touches as vast a scope as any and all six Darshana Shastras. And main leaning seems to be towards the ' Upanishadic teaching ( and therefore aptly termed as Vedanta based). The attention is drawn to Charka Shaareera Sthana I-13, the interaction of student Agnivesha - Punarvasu Maitreya. The question is: Kva chaitaa Vedanaah sarvah, nivruttim yaanti -asheshatah' ? -When all miseries disapper? The answer is: All miseries end through Yoga and in Moksha. The entire discussions in Chapter 1 to 5 of Shareera Sthana in Charaka contains several quotations indicating the necessity of application of Yoga and Vedanta too in health science in a broader perspective of health science in a broader perspective of the concept of health.

In other words, Classical design of  Ayurveda training aimed at  outputting a Vaidya with a Yoga-Vedanta  Mind set, just like Artha-Shaastra aimed at  outputting a Royal-Sage as a King with a Yoga-Vedanta  Mind set.  This probably was to build and prioritize ' compassion and pro-life attitude in Vaidya in medical practice' and  ' curb the avaricious tendency of using medical services as a money sucker practice'. 

This is in keeping with the  'Dharma frame of Ayurveda as a Veda'.

I hope this helps.

Regards
BVK Sastry

 

Regards

 

Dr. B V Venkatakrishna Sastry
(G-Mail)

 

 

[sadasivamurty rani]

Indian Knowledge disciplines are always interdisciplinary. Hence there is mutual dependency among all the Sastras. 

Here an attempt is made to show certain some philosophic contents loaned by Ayurveda from Sankhya, Nyaya-vaiseshika and Vedanta also and are contextually used in Susruta and Charaka.

Here are a few examples:

शुश्रुते - शारीरे - प्रथमाध्याये सूत्राणि १त: १६पर्यन्तम्  (Entire Sankhya Structure is accepted by Susruta in the following passages) 

अथात: सर्वभूतचिन्ताशरीरं व्याख्यास्याम:।१। यथोवाच भगवाऩ् धन्वन्तरि:।२।

सर्वभूतानां कारणमकारणं सत्त्वरजस्तमोलक्षणमष्टरूपमखिलस्य जगत: संभवहेतुरव्यक्तं नाम। तदेकं बहूनं क्षॆत्रज्ञानामधिष्ठानं समुद्र इवौदकानां भवानाम्॥३॥

तस्मादव्यक्तान्महानुत्पद्यते तल्लिङ्ग एव तल्लिङ्गाच्च महस्तल्लक्षण एवाहङ्कार उत्पद्यते, स त्रिविधो वैकारिकस्तैजसो भूतादिरिति। त्र वैकारिकादहङ्कारात्तैजससहायात्तल्लक्षणान्येवैकादशेन्द्रियान्य़ुत्पद्यन्ते। तद्यथा- श्रोत्रत्वक्चक्षुर्जिह्वाघ्राणवाग्घस्तोपस्थपायुपादमनांसीति, तत्र पूर्वाणि पञ्च बुद्धीन्द्रियाणि, इतराणि पञ्च कर्मेन्द्रियाणि, उभयात्मकं मन:, भूतादेरपि तैजससहायात्तल्लक्षणान्येव पञ्चतन्माराण्युत्पद्यन्ते - शब्दतन्मात्रं, स्पर्शतन्मात्रं, रूपतन्मात्रं, गन्धतन्मात्रमिति तेषां विशेषा: शब्दस्पर्शरूपरसगन्धा:, तेभ्यो भूतानि, व्योमानिलानलजलोर्व्य:, एवमेषा तत्त्वचतुर्विंशतिर्व्याख्याता॥४॥

तत्रबुद्धीन्द्रियाणां शब्दादयो विषया:, कर्मेन्द्रियाणां यथासङ्ख्यं वचनादानानन्दविसर्गविहरणनि॥५॥

अव्यक्तं महानहङ्कार: पञ्चतन्मात्राणि चेत्यष्टौ प्रकृतय:, शेषा: षोडशविकारा:॥६॥

स्व: स्वश्चैषां विषयोऽधिभूतम्, स्वयमध्यात्मम्, अधिदैवतम् - अथ बुद्धेर्ब्रह्मा, अहङ्कारस्येश्वर:, मनसश्चन्द्रमा:, दिश: श्रोत्रस्य, तचो वायु:, सूर्यश्चक्षुष:, रसनस्याप:, पृथिवी घ्राणस्य, वाचोऽग्नि:, हस्तयोरिन्द्र:, पादयोर्विष्णु:, पायोर्मित्र:, प्रजापतिरुपस्थस्येति॥७॥

तत्र सर्व एवचेतन एष वर्ग: पुरुष: पञ्चविंशतितम: कार्यकारणसंयुक्तश्चेतयिता भवति। सत्यपचैतन्ये प्रधनस्य पुरुषकैवल्यार्थं प्रवृत्तिमुपदिशन्ति, क्षीरादीश्चात्र हेतूनुदाहरन्ति।।८॥

अत ऊर्ध्वं पर्कृतिपुरुषयो: साधर्म्यवैधर्म्ये व्याख्यास्याम:। तद्यथा - उभावप्यनादी, उभावप्यनन्तौ, उभावप्यलिङ्गौ, उभावपि नित्यौ, उभावप्यनपरौ, उभौ च सर्वगताविति, एका तु प्रकृतिरचेतना त्रिगुणा बीजधर्मिणी, प्रसवदर्मिण्यमध्यस्थधर्मिणी चेति, बहवस्तु पुर्षाश्चेतनावन्तोऽगुणा अबीजधर्माणॊऽप्रस्वधर्माणो मध्यस्थधर्माणश्चेति॥९॥

तत्रकारणानुरूपं कार्यमिति कृत्वा सर्व एवैते विशेषा: सत्त्वरजस्तमोमया भवन्ति, तदञ्जनत्त्वात्तन्मयत्वाच्च

तद्गुणा एव पुर्षा भवन्तीत्येके भाषन्ते॥१०॥

वैद्यके तु -

स्वभवमीश्वरं कालं यदृच्छां नियतिं तथा।

परिणामं च मन्यन्ते प्रकृतिं पृथुदर्शिन:॥११॥

 तन्मयान्येव भूतानि तद्गुणान्येव चादिशेत्।

तैश्च तल्लक्षण: कृत्स्नो भूतग्रामो व्यजन्यत॥१२॥

तस्योपयोगोऽभिहितश्चिकित्सां प्रति सर्वदा।

भूतेभ्यो हि परं यस्मान्नास्ति चिन्ता चिकित्सिते॥१३॥

यतोऽभिहितं - "तत्सम्भवद्रव्यसमूहो भूतादिरुक्त:।" - भौतिकानि चेन्द्रियाण्यायुर्वेदे वर्ण्यन्ते, तथेन्द्रियार्था:॥१४॥

भवति चात्र-

इन्द्रियेणॆन्द्रियार्थं तु स्वं स्वं गृह्णाति मानव:।

नियतं तुल्ययोनित्वान्नान्येनान्यमिति स्थिति:॥१५॥

न चायुर्वेदशास्त्रेषूपदिश्यन्ते सर्वगता: क्षेत्रज्ञा नित्याश्च, असर्वगतेषु च क्षेत्रज्ञेषु निअत्यपु्रुषख्यापकाऩ् हेतूनुदाहरन्ति, आयुर्वेदशास्त्रेष्वसर्वगता: क्षेत्रज्ञा नित्याश्च, तिर्यग्योनिमानुषदेवेषु सञ्चरन्ति धर्माधर्मनिमित्तं, त एतेऽनुमानग्राह्या:परमसूक्ष्माश्चेतनावन्त: शाश्वता लोहितरेतसो: सन्निपोआतेष्वभिव्यज्यन्ते, यतोऽभिहितं - "पञ्च महाभूतशरीरिसमवाय: पुरुष:" - इति, स एष कर्मपुरुषश्चिकित्साधिकृत:॥१६॥

अथ चरके सूत्रस्थाने श्लोका: ४५त: ...५५ पर्यन्तम्)

Here the terms are borrowed from Nyaya, Vaiseshika systems and Vedanta also)

सत्त्वमात्मा शरीरं च त्रयमेतत्त्रिदण्डवत्।

लोकस्तिष्ठति संयोगात्तत्र सर्वे प्रतिष्ठितम्॥४५॥

स पुमांश्चेतनं तच्च तच्चाधिकरणं स्मृतम्।

वेदस्यास्य तदर्थं हि वेदोऽयं संप्रकाशित:॥४६॥

खादीन्यात्मा मन: कालॊ दिशश्च द्रव्यसंग्रह:।

सेन्द्रियं चेतनं द्रव्यं, निरिन्द्रियमचेतनम्॥४७॥

शरीरं सत्त्वसंज्ञं च व्याधीनामाश्रयो मत:।

तथा सुखानां योगस्तु सुखानां कारणं सम:॥५४॥

निर्विकार: परस्त्वात्मा सत्त्वभूतगुणॆन्द्रियै:।

चैतन्ये कारणं नित्यो द्रष्टा पश्यति हि क्रिया॥५५॥

In the following slokas the concept of Rebirth, accounts of Papa (sin) and Punya(virtues or merits resulted from holy deeds) etc are all mentioned. 

दानैर्दयाभिरपि च द्विजदेवतागो-

गुर्वर्चनाप्रणतिभिश्च जपैस्तपोभि:।

इत्युक्तपुण्यनिचयैर्पचीयमाना:

प्राक् पापजा यदि रुज: प्रशमं प्रयान्ति॥

दानैर्दयाभिरपि च द्विजदेवतागो-

गुर्वर्चनाप्रणतिभिश्च जपैस्तपोभि:।

इत्युक्तपुण्यनिचयैर्पचीयमाना:

प्राक् पापजा यदि रुज: प्रशमं प्रयान्ति॥

दैवमात्मकृतं विद्यात्कर्म यत्पौर्वदैहिकम्।

स्मृत: पुरुषकारस्तु क्रियते यदिहापरम्॥

बलाबलविशेषोऽस्ति तयोरपि च कर्मणॊ:।

दैवं पुरुषकारेण दुर्बलं ह्युपहन्यते।

दैवेन चेतरत्कर्म विशिष्टेनोपहन्यते॥

These are only a few examples to show that there is some relation between Indian Philosophical systems and Ayurveda. A good number of examples can be found from these texts if we search further. 

Regards,

Prof. Rani Sadasiva Murty

---

From: Ajit Gargeshwari <ajit.gar...@gmail.com>
To: भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत् <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, 4 April 2016 8:55 PM
Subject: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Aurveda, Jyotis'a and Vedanta

​On predictive astrology we can have different thread, for I remember having a few astrological related thread a few years back that did not go well.I hope this time it does go well.

I know there a lot of philosophy in Aurvedic texts. May I request scholars to specifically point to books papers that show relationship between Aurveda and Vedanta.

[Bijoy Misra]

This is beautiful.  I have not read.  We plan a "personalized medicine" conference in Sept. 

It looks as though it is more of an enunciation, like to create another layer of शरीरं  (body, flesh, blood) in the Sankhya system.

शरीरं सत्त्वसंज्ञं च व्याधीनामाश्रयो मत:।

तथा सुखानां योगस्तु सुखानां कारणं सम:॥५४॥

निर्विकार: परस्त्वात्मा सत्त्वभूतगुणॆन्द्रियै:।

चैतन्ये कारणं नित्यो द्रष्टा पश्यति हि क्रिया॥५५॥

The key is possibly here:

दैवं पुरुषकारेण दुर्बलं ह्युपहन्यते।

दैवेन चेतरत्कर्म विशिष्टेनोपहन्यते॥

But we have to dig what he means by  पुरुषकारेण.

I admire BVP resource base.  We have to keep on building and win the world.

BM

[Hnbhat B.R.]

SAnkhya is twofold - निरीश्वरसांख्य and सेश्वरसांख्य. Caraka's सांख्य is specially noted, and the descriptions here are similar to सेश्वरसांख्य.

The terms in the verse quoted दैव and पुरुषकार relates to दैवव्यपाश्रय and युक्तिव्यपाश्रय types of चिकित्सा.

दैव has already been detailed in another thread and पुरुषकार relates to human efforts.

[Bijoy Misra]

This sounds just right (from a novice perspective of mine!)

Is there any tracking of the word युक्ति meaning "considered opinion" in literature?

Gita talks about  युक्ततम मतः, which possibly has the similar connotation.

There's a little book I did with a Swami here in MIT called SriKrishna Yoga

(published by Advaita Press, RKM, 2005 ) and I tried to analyze the technicality of the phrase.

As I see now, it has more  पुरुषकार in it than दैव

--

[Hnbhat B.R.]

On 05-Apr-2016 10:31 pm, "Bijoy Misra" <misra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> This sounds just right (from a novice perspective of mine!)
>
> Is there any tracking of the word युक्ति meaning "considered opinion" in literature?
>

युक्ति is used in the sense तर्क, which is different from "considered opinion" but logical thinking, in diagnosis of diseases from symptoms, and their treatment and preparation of drugs.

[Bijoy Misra]

I think the same logic could transfer to युक्ततम मतः in the Gita ch VI.

Where (book, text) was the reference to युक्तिव्यपाश्रय?

--

[Nagaraj Paturi]

yukta in Gita is related to Yoga.

Yukti here is related to cleverness, intelligence, application of brain etc.

[Bijoy Misra]

You have to read युक्ततम.

Let us move on.

[Nagaraj Paturi]

युक्त in युक्ततम is what I said is related to Yoga and not connected to Yuktivyapaas'raya.

Yes, let us move on.

[Bijoy Misra]

योग to युक्त is not relative was my point.  

I agree it's semantics.

[Nagaraj Paturi]

One who is in Yoga is yukta. The best among them atis'ayEna yuktah is yuktatama. In 6-47, the interesting aspect is Bhakti being considered as Yoga.

योगिनामपि सर्वेषां मद्गतेनान्तरात्मना ।

श्रद्धावान्भजते यो माम् स मे युक्ततमो मतः ॥ 6\-47॥

[Subrahmanyam Korada]

नमो  विद्वद्भ्यः

In the past on BVP scholars expressed their views on Aayurveda, Jyotis'a and Vedanta being connected with each other.

 So My question is -How the connection among Aayurveda, Jyotis'a and Vedanta translate in curing the patient sufferring from a particular disease, say ditheria or aids or Cancer?

 What settled principles are used in connecting Aayurveda, Jyotis'a and Vedanta? 

                                                     --- Vidvan N R Joshi

Yes, during 2010-2011 (roughly) I proposed the nexus among ज्तोतिषम् - अयुर्वेद - वेदान्त , and discussed at  length .

Let me first answer your question of curing diphtheria , Cancer etc. --

आयुर्वेद  classifies  रोगs (चरकम् -सूत्रस्थानम् - महाचतुष्पादाध्यायः - 2/9) --

सुखसाध्यं मतं साध्यं कृच्छ्रसाध्यमथापि च ।

द्विविधं चाप्यसाध्यं स्यत् याप्यं  यच्चानुपक्रमम् ॥

Chiefly the diseases can be put under three headings - सध्यः , कष्टसाध्यः , असाध्यः ।

असाध्य is again put under two  - याप्यः , अनुपक्रमः \

There are 20 or so मेहाः - among them four are serious . मधुमेह ( Diabetes Mellitus - mellitus means honey) is one of them . These are असाध्याः।

मिह सेचने , घञ् - मधु is getting mixed with मूत्रम् - मधुमेह (लक्षणा - उपलक्षणं च)।

It is elaborated - रुधिरमपि माधुर्यम् अश्नुते (blood  also gets  sweetened).

There are  many such diseases .

A month ago or so there was a report / conclusion (I saw it on Al Jazeera  and BBC ) - the cause of cancer is 'luck' ( they mean - in our परिभाषा - ’कर्म’).

The origin may be traced to अथर्ववेद - क्षेत्रियरोगनाशनम् (कां 2 सू 8) -

Panini had it - क्षेत्रियच् परक्षेत्रे चिकित्स्यः (here we do not take all the meanings of the सूत्रम् as per महाभाष्यम्) - this रोग is to be treated in another क्षेत्रम् / शरीरम् ,

 i e an incurable disease - क्षेत्रियः ( ’चितः ’ - अन्तोदत्तः) । 

चिकित्सा - ’ गुप्तिज्किद्भ्यः सन् ’ पा , चिकित्स्यते - ’ सनाद्यन्ता धातवः ’ पा । 

*************

Now the discussion on the nexus --

जन्मान्तरकृतं पापं व्याधिरूपेण बाधते |

तच्छान्तिरौषधैर्दानैः जपहोमसुरार्चनैः॥

The मन्त्राः ( मननात् त्रायते इति मन्त्रः - त्रैङ् पालने) , जपाः ( I have already discussed very recently - यजुर्वेदे ग्रह- अधैदेवता-प्रत्यधिदेवता मन्त्राः । जप followed by तर्पणम् , होम ending with ब्राह्मणभोजनम्), दान and other पूजाs - are for शान्ति = the degree of intensity of the disease is considerably reduced - but not निवारणा = cure .

रक्षाकर्म is given in सुश्रुत - सूत्रस्थानम् - 5-19 to 33 ----

उदकुंभाच्च आपो गृहीत्वा प्रोक्षयन् रक्षाकर्म कुर्यात् तद्वक्ष्यामः ।

कृत्यानां प्रतिघातार्थं तथा रक्षोभयस्य च ।

......

एतैः वेदात्मकैः मन्त्रैः कृत्याव्याधिविनाशकैः ।

मयैवं कृतरक्षस्त्वं दीर्घमायुरवाप्नुहि ॥

होरेत्यहोरात्रविकल्पमेके

वांछन्ति पूर्वापरवर्णलोपात् ।

कर्मार्जितं पूर्वभवे सदादि

यत्तस्य पक्तिं समभिव्यनक्ति ॥ बृहज्जातकम् - संज्ञाध्यायः - 3

पक्तिः = पाकः ( क्तिन् or क्तिच्) । समभिव्यनक्ति = सम्यक् प्रकटीकरोति - see commentary of भट्टोत्पल also.

पुण्यं वाप्यथ पापरूपमपि वा कर्मार्जितं प्राग्भवे

तत्पाको’त्र तु खेचरस्य हि दशाभुक्त्यादिभिर्ज्ञायते।

तस्मात्खेटदशाविभाग इह चावश्यं क्रमात्तत्फलं

ज्ञेयं तत्तदनिष्टशान्तिकरणादिष्टं सुखं प्राप्नुयात्॥ उत्तरकालामृतम् - दशाफलखण्डः-2

Having said this - let us take a look at  वेदान्त --

There is वैषम्यनैर्घ्रुण्याधिकरणम् - ब्रह्मसूत्रशांकरभाष्यम्- 2-1-12 , सू 34-36) --     

वैषम्यनैर्घृण्ये न , सापेक्षत्वात् तथा हि दर्शयति  ब्र सू 2-1-34

ईश्वर  , the सृष्टिकर्ता does not have वैषम्य (पक्षपातबुद्धिः) or नैर्घृण्य ( not being kindly to some beings) - because the सृष्टि of beings happens as per their कर्म - वेद shows this - पुण्यो वै पुण्येन कर्मणा भवति पापः पापेन ( बृह उप 3-2-17) etc.

न कर्म , अविभागात् इति चेत् न , अनादित्वात्  ब्र सू 2-1-35

प्राक् सृष्टेः अविभागावधारणात् नास्ति कर्म ... नैष दोषः , अनादित्वात् संसारस्य । भवेदेष दोषः यदि आदिमान् संसारः स्यात् । अनादौ तु संसारे बीजाङ्कुरवत् हेतुहेतुमद्भावेन कर्मणः सर्गवैषम्यस्य च प्रव्रुत्तिः न विरुध्यते (भाष्यम्) ।

Among the six अनदिs acceptable to अद्वैतिन्s , जीव is one - when जीव is अनादि then the कर्म , having जीव as the resort, is also अनादि ।

Now let us see what आयुर्वेद says / shows --

In  ज्योतिषम्  there are three स्कन्धाः - मुहूर्त - जातक - सिद्धान्त भेदात् ।

मुहूर्तस्कन्ध  is required --

उपनयनीयस्तु ब्राह्मणः प्रशस्तेषु तिथि-करण-मुहूर्त-नक्षत्रेषु .... सुश्रुतसंहिता -सूत्रस्थानम् 2-4 .

सिद्धान्तस्कन्ध is required --

सुश्रुत - सूत्रस्थानम् - 6अध्यायः --

अथात ऋतुचर्यम् अध्यायं व्याख्यास्यामः ।

कालो हि नाम भगवान् स्वयंभूः अनादिमध्यनिधनः अत्र रसव्यापत्संपत्ती जीवितमरणे च मनुष्याणां आयत्ते ।

... तत्र माघादयो द्वादशमासाः संवत्सरः । ... तेषां तपस्तपस्यौ शिशिरः , मधुमाधवौ वसन्तः , शुचिशुक्रौ ग्रीष्मः , नभोनभस्यौ वर्षाः , इषोर्जौ शरत् , सहःसहस्यौ हेमन्तः इति।

..... अयने द्वे भवतो दक्षिणम् उत्तरं च । तयोः दक्षिणं वर्षाशरद्धेमन्ताः । तेषु भगवान्  

आप्यायते ( ओ प्यायी वृद्धौ Korada) सोमः । अम्ललवणमधुराश्च रसा बलवन्तो भवन्ति , उत्तरोत्तरं च सर्वप्राणिनां बलम् अभिवर्धते । .....

शीतांशुः क्लेदयत्युर्वीं विवस्वाञ् शोषयत्यपि ।

तावुभावपि संश्रित्य वायुः पालयति प्रजाः ॥

ता एव औषधयः कालपरिणामात् परिणतवीर्या बलवत्यो हेमन्ते भवन्त्यापश्च प्रसन्नाः स्निग्धाः अत्यर्थं गुर्व्यश्च । ........

जातकस्कन्ध is also required --

depending on the दशा of a particular ग्रह one can do both diagnosis and prognosis of a disease - also each house of the zodiac represents one part of the body and thus one can , with the help of the horoscope , decide as to where actually  the problem lies. It is also described in जातकस्कन्ध as to which planet ( पाप) causes which disease .

If people are not utilizing this knowledge - नैष स्थाणोरपराधः यदेनम् अन्धो न पश्यति (निरुक्तम्)

Why आयुर्वेद did not mention the matters related to other शस्त्राणि ?

सुश्रुत - सूत्रस्थनम् - 4प्रभाषणीयः अध्यायः --

अन्यशस्त्रोपपन्नानां च अर्थानाम् अर्थवशात् तेषां तद्विद्यभ्यः एष व्याख्यानम् अनुश्रोतव्यम् । कस्मात् ?

 न हि एकस्मिन् शास्त्रे शक्यः सर्वशास्त्राणाम् अवरोधः कर्तुम् !

भवन्ति चात्र -

एकं शास्त्रम् अधीयानः न विद्याच्छास्त्रनिश्चयम् ।

तस्मात् बहुश्रुतः शास्त्रं विजानीयात् चिकित्सकः ॥

The माहेश्वरज्वर versus वैष्णवज्वर of भागवतम् can be taken as as अर्थवाद - नहिनिन्दान्याय of मीमांसा ।

So very briefly we discussed वेद - उपवेद - वेदाङ्ग - दर्शन - पुराण ।

तत्तु समन्वयात् (ब्र सू 1-1-4) - is applicable generally .

There is no excuse - we have to study various kinds of literature and exhibit the nexus - that is , I believe , lost over the time .

Feel free to ask / doubt / negate/ criticize - it is our tradition .

I did not quote many things - hope this is helpful.

धन्यो’स्मि

 

Dr.Korada Subrahmanyam
Professor of Sanskrit, CALTS,
University of Hyderabad,
Ph:09866110741(M),91-40-23010741(R),040-23133660(O)

Skype Id: Subrahmanyam Korada

Blog: Koradeeyam.blogspot.in 

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Sorry for not being able to join the discussion earlier. There was a network hardware problem at my place.

1. Let me clarify that none of posts in the related thread were against phalajyotisha. (Hope it suffices to say that I am from a family of Daivajnas such as Sri Pendyala Brahmananda Siddhanti and Sri Paturi Subbaraya Shastri and inherited whatever little I could from the stalwarts.) The point that I was trying to make was that phalajyotisha is not one of the nidaana (diagnosis) tools of Ayurveda nor is grahadoshanivaaraNa coming from phalajyotisha part of Ayurveda chikitsaapaddhati. Ayurveda does not prohibit people from finding reasons for the health problems through the astrology of health.

2. Ayurveda's sharing of the common vaidika s'aastra knowledge from various vaidika s'aastras such as nyaaya, vais'Eshika, saankhya, etc. was also not contradicted by me.

3. The thread initiator Dr. Joshi seems to have been disappointed by the Ayurveda vaidyas who (a) claimed asaadhya rogas to be saadhya for them (b) In treating such extreme cases used grahadoshanivaaraNa pujas, certain mantras etc. and finally when failed to prove their claims or in other words, when they could not cure the disease, (c) used explanations such as 'your poorva karma is coming in the way of cure' etc. or some other pseudo-vedantic statements. It appeared that he saw all this to be because of the connection between Ayurveda, Jyotisha and Vedanta. 

That is why, I said, that is not the way, Vedanta is used by a proper Ayurvedic doctor in his practice, nor do Ayurvedic texts use the concepts of Vedanta that way.

4. Prof. Rani's following quote has brought into the discussion what I was about to say:

दैवमात्मकृतं विद्यात्कर्म यत्पौर्वदैहिकम्।

स्मृत: पुरुषकारस्तु क्रियते यदिहापरम्॥

बलाबलविशेषोऽस्ति तयोरपि च कर्मणॊ:।

दैवं पुरुषकारेण दुर्बलं ह्युपहन्यते।

दैवेन चेतरत्कर्म विशिष्टेनोपहन्यते॥   

This debate between daiva (fate) and purushakaara (human effort) is the most relevant and important debate in this context. In the western philosophy it takes the form of fate and free will debate. Daivavaadis (fatalists), those who say daiva only works not purushakaara,  are the ones who make society nishkriyaapara.

 

Vaidika texts including itihaasas and puraaNas encourage human effort while recognizing daiva fully.

Humbly,

Nagaraj

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Let me clarify that none of posts in the related thread were against phalajyotisha.

should be

Let me clarify that none of my posts in the related thread were against phalajyotisha.

[Jsr Prasad]

Respected All,

Namaste. I cannot resist myself to join the discussion. Thanks to Prof. Nagaraj garu, Dr. Giridhar, Prof. Sadasivamurthy garu for their valuable pointers offered. I just want to add few more points the connection between Ayurveda-Darsana and Ayurveda-Vedanta. I think, some verses are already mentioned by scholars in respective posts. Please excuse any typos.

I. Relation between Ayurveda and Darsanas:

Vagbhata pays his utmost obeisance to Ayurveda in Ashtanga-hrdayam -
आयुः कामयमानेन धर्मार्थः सुखसाधनम् । आयुर्वेदोपदेशेषु विधेयः परमादरः ॥ (अ.हृ.1.1)

But why should I revere Ayurveda? He only answers in Uttara-tantra:
इदमागमसिद्धत्वात् प्रत्यक्षफलदर्शनात् ।
मन्त्रवत् सम्प्रयोक्तव्यं न मीमांस्य कदाचन ।।
The doubt is cleared by above saying.

Is Ayurveda a mere medical science? NO. Let us recall the first aphorism of all six Astika darsanas.

अथातो ब्रह्मजिज्ञासा - वेदन्तदर्शनम्
अथातो धर्मजिज्ञासा - मीमांसादर्शनम्
अथ योगानुशासनम् - योगदर्शनम्
अथ त्रिविधदुःखात्यन्तनिवृत्तिरत्यन्तपुरुषार्थः - साङ्ख्यदर्शनम्
अथातो धर्मं व्याख्यास्यामः - वैशेषिकदर्शनम्
प्रमाण-प्रमेय-संशय...निश्श्रेयसाधिगमः - न्यायदर्शनम्

Caraka starts his text with 'अथातो सर्वभूतचिन्ताशरीरं व्याख्यास्यामः ।

All the above darshanas advocate the analysis of 'tattva.' then what is the connection of Ayurveda with these six philosophical schools? Kalidasa says, 'शरीरमाद्यं खलु धर्मसाधनम् ।' Caraka's statement धर्मार्थकाममोक्षाणाम् आरोग्यं मूलमुत्तमम् । रोगास्तस्यापहर्तारः श्रेयसो जीवितस्य च । (Carakasamhita 1.16) might have inspired him to say so. All darshanas unequivocally advocate the paramapurushartha-'moksha.' Caraka started the redacted text, by saying the above quotation. So, the goal is clear. There are many concepts in Ayurveda, that represent Vedantic views. Darsanic aspects of Ayurveda were endorsed by Santarakshita in his Tattvasamgraha, Gotama in Nyayadarsana, jayantabhatta in Nyayamanjari etc. It is no exaggeration, if one says, Nagesa's Apta-lakshana was inspired by Caraka's Apta-lakshana. 

What more, Ayurveda has given shape to Nyaya as vadavidya (please also see S.N. Dasgupta's History of Indian Philosophy, Vol. 1 on Tantrayuktis). More on this point, later please.


II. Is there any relation between Ayurveda and Vedanta? Yes, it is an affirmative YES.

There is an inherent relation between panca mahabhutas and tridosha. The following verse clarifies it.
विसर्गादानविक्षेपैः सोमसूर्यानिला यथा ।
धारयन्ति जगद्देहं कफपित्तानिलास्तता ।। (सु.सू.21.8)

Body is made up of atomic molecules of five gross elements, all food is also pancabhutika:
पञ्चभूतात्मके देहे आहारः पाञ्चभौतिकः ।
विपक्वः पञ्चधा सम्यग् गुणान् स्वानभिवर्धयेत् ।। (सू.सू. 49.524) again, at 26.10 Caraka says - सर्वं द्रव्यं पाञ्चभौतिकमस्मिन्नर्थे ।

Atma - निर्विकारः परस्त्वात्मा सर्वभूतानां निर्विशेषः । सत्त्वशरीरयोस्तु विशेषाद्विशेषोपलब्धिः ।।(च.शा.4.33)

अव्यक्तात्मा क्षेत्रज्ञः शाश्वतो विभुरव्ययः । (च.शा.1.61)

चैतन्ये कारणं नित्यं द्रष्टा पश्यति हि क्रियाः (च.सू. 1.56)

न शक्यश्चक्षुषा द्रष्टुं देहे सूक्ष्मतमो विभुः ।
दृश्यते ज्ञानचक्षुभिस्तपश्चक्षुभिरेव च ।। (सु.शा. 5.50)

paramAtmA in context of vyadhi and sareera - निर्विकारः परस्त्वात्मा सत्त्वभूतगुणेन्द्रियैः । चैतन्ये कारणं नित्यो द्रष्टा पश्यति हि क्रियाः ।। (च.सू.1.56)

in context of definition of 'health' Sushruta states:

समदोषः समाग्निश्च समधातुमलक्रियः ।
प्रसन्नात्मेन्द्रियमनाः स्वस्थ इत्यभिधीयते ।। (1.15.41)
We need to take note of the 'Atma' in the above definition.

Do Caraka and Sushruta endorse Isvara based on above references? No! This is something like manas in Nyaya system of philosophy. Nowhere it is said as an indriya. But it has been concluded based upon some contexts. Similarly, both Caraka and Sushruta gives us some clues. Here is an example:

जाठरो भगवानग्निरीश्वरोन्नस्य पाचकः ।
सौक्ष्म्याद्रासनादाददानो विवेक्तुं नैव शक्यते ।।
on which, the ablve commentator, Dalhana elaborates the hrdayam as follows-
...भगवानिति माहात्म्यवानित्यर्थः । ईश्वर इति अष्टमहैश्वर्यगुणयुक्त इति, अत एवाणिमादि गुणयुक्त इति । सूक्ष्मत्वान्न दृश्यते । कार्यैरुपलभ्यते । ननु, यद्यसावीश्वरस्तत् कथमस्य मान्द्यादयो दोषा भवन्ति? सत्यं, पुरुषस्य प्राक्तनकर्मणा मान्द्यादयः क्रियन्ते, अथवाग्निः पित्ताश्रितः, ततः पित्तविधातादग्निमान्द्यादयो दोषा न स्वत इति । Dalhana refered to 'karma' as the root cause of slow metabolism, this needs our attention.

2. Trigunas
सर्वभूतानां कारणमकारणं सत्त्वरजस्तमसो लक्षणम् । (सु.शा. 1.3.10) We can correlate this expression with सत्त्वं रजस्तमश्चेति गुणाः प्रकृतिसम्भवाः (Gita 14.5)

I shall add soon, more on the following concepts - purusha, moksha, yoga in ayurveda, eshanas, srshtinirmana.

Thanks and regards,

Prasad

[Nagaraj Paturi]

1. Let us all remember that we are in times when all the ancient Indian S&T is attempted to be presented to the younger generation as mere जादू टोना. To overemphasize the daivavyapaas'raya aspects of Ayurveda may add up to this image attempted to be created by the detractors of  the ancient Indian S&T. Picking out the great achievements of yuktivyapaas'raya of Ayurveda and to present the fact that daivavyapaas'raya is resorted to only as an alternative to and not as a substitute to yuktivyapaas'raya is the need of the hour.

2.  It is also important to show it to the younger generation that seeking supernatural intervention in medical issues, is not a special feature of the 'Hindu' believers and it is a common human tendency found universally and that there are a huge number of allopathic hospitals all over the world where the staff including doctors, nurses and others resort to 'prayers'. Just a casual net search reveals the prevalence of Christian missionary hospitals all over the world, request for donations for these hospitals including statements that the donation would help evangelism.

3. Does 'Hindu' tradition look down upon the seekers of artha and kaama within the bounds of dharma and force all to seek only moksha? Is seeking moksha essential to be 'healthy'? Is it not enough to be bound by dharma in all the pursuits of artha and kaama , to be healthy? In other words, is moksha-seeking prescribed as essential for health? Or, is it shown that for a person who is already a moksha-seeker, health is helpful in his pursuit, Ayurveda helps him for that purpose? To say that Ayurveda as one of the three cleansing sciences helps the pursuit of moksha is different from saying that he sole purpose of Ayurveda is moksha only.

4. To use the concept of poorvakarma phala (a) to encourage a person to do puNya karma for a future puNya phala (b) to explain the aspects that can not be rationally explained (d) to encourage people for paapavinaas'aka activities of aadhyaatmika saadhana (d) as heuristic concept in the philosophical discussions in Vaidika and avaidika dharma-centric traditions is healthy. To use it to justify the present conditions, 'injustices', as an excuse for human failure, to encourage fatalistic lethargy and inaction is unhealthy.

5. Once these cares are taken, the intertextuality, interdisciplinarity etc. of various Vaidika tradition, when discussed, does not harm the image of the ancient Indian S&T. 

[sadasivamurty rani]

Here are some of my observations I would like to present here after going through the present post of Shri Nagaraj Paturi Ji. 

1. How should we hand over our Ancient Indian S&T to the younger generation?

As we have a younger generation before us about whom we have been facing an alarming situation regarding in what way our inherited ancient Indian Science and Technology should be handed over to them, So also were younger generation to our fathers' generation. Our fathers' generation was younger to their fathers' generation.  Thus when we go into the past to the times of Charaka and Susruta all the successive generations to them till our generation or till our next generation all have been younger only. 

But never in this chain from Charaka and Susruta to our fathers' generations they were confronted by any such problem regarding in what way or which part of the knowledge of our S&T should be offered to us as their successors. Which part of the stream of knowledge should be ignored or prohibited and which part should be prescribed to read was never a question of their concern. Through generations as whole the entire knowledge has been transmitted to us.

When they never hesitated why should we hesitate to offer as a whole to our next generations? 

Though every one of us in the present generation is strongly desirous to free our Indian Knowledge Systems from the fetters of Western influences, domination and forces, I guess the reason, for our hesitation to offer our knowledge as a whole or to assume or accept the role of becoming the editors of ancient Texts of Charaka and Susruta partly, may be that our Minds are still in western robes. 

2.  Other wise is it merely a JADU TONA to speak about our ancient Indian systems of philosophy that speak the Moksha? If others only call it JADU TONA aren't we able retort them with our strength of knowledge? 

3. Should a person who seeks Moksha  always be weak or shouldn't he be healthy?

4. Can we appreciate if a person attains Artha and Kama going out of the path of Dharma? 

5. What is the status of Vajrakaya Nirmanavidhi or Siddha Sarira Nirmana Vidhi in the Ayurveda system which promises one to win over the normal conditions of old age and death?

6. The essence of all disciplines of Ancient Indian Knowledge systems is MOKSHA though Dharma, Artha and Kama are incidental gains. So also with Ayurveda. 

7. Is Daiva vyapasraya discouraged or dismissed or discarded by Charaka or Susruta or Vagbhata as an alternative or substitute of Yukti Vyapasraya? Can we find any citations any where in these texts? 

As I observed these disciplines and Ayurveda all of them have taken enough and perfect care of themselves in being passed to the generations to come for ever. 

So we need not take any special care to amend them or edit them as we do wish. If we are successful in offering the knowledge to them as it is that is up to those younger generations what to do further. 

In this connection I would like to present the views of Charaka in my next post retiring here out of the fear of crossing the limits of space. 

Regards,

Prof. Rani Sadasiva Murty

From: Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com>
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, 6 April 2016 9:45 AM

Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Aurveda, Jyotis'a and Vedanta

[sadasivamurty rani]

The following are the Direct  passages from the 11 Adhyaya of Sutrasthana of Charaka Samhita. As I was intending to post them in course of time these names of Eshana trayam was mentioned even by Prof. Prasad Garu.

If we carefully read these passages we can find comfortable answers by Charaka for the big Question raised by Shri Nagaraju Paturi Ji regarding our future younger generations. 

In fact for all future generations the single solution of Charaka is to 1. Know about the Necessity of Health in All the Three Eshanas and 2. to Quit Nastikya buddhi. 

अथातस्तिस्रैषणीयमध्यायं व्याख्यास्याम:॥१॥

इति ह स्माह भगवान् मैत्रेय:॥२॥

1. एषणा त्रयम् - आरोग्यम्।

इह खलु पुरुषॆणानुपहतसत्त्वबुद्धिपौरुषपराक्रमेण हितमिह चामुष्मिंश्च लोके समनुपश्यता तिस्र एषणा पर्येष्टव्या: भवन्ति। तद्यथा -

प्राणैषणा, धनैषणा, परलोकैषणेति॥३॥

2. प्राणैषणा - आरोग्यम्

आसां तु खल्वेषणानां प्राणैषणां तावत्पूर्वतरमापद्येत। कस्मात् प्राणपरित्यागे हि सर्वत्याग:। तस्यानुपालनं स्वस्थस्य स्वस्ववृत्तिरातुरस्य विकारप्रशमनेऽप्रमाद:। तदुभयमेतदुक्तं वक्ष्यते च, तद्यथोक्तमनुवर्तमान:, प्राणानुपालनाद्दीर्घमायुरवाप्नोतीति प्रथमैषणा व्याख्याता भवति॥४॥

3. धनैषणा - आरोग्यम्

अथ द्वितीयां धनैषणामापद्येत, प्राणेभ्यो ह्यनन्तरं धनमेव पर्येष्टव्यं भवति, न ह्यत: पापात्पापीयोऽस्ति यदनुपकरणस्य दीर्घमायु:, तस्मादुपकरणानि पर्येष्टुं यतेत। तत्रओपकरणोपायाननुव्याख्यास्याम:, तद्यथा - कृषि - पाशुप्"आल्य - वाणिज्य - राजोपसेवादीनि, यानि चान्यान्यपि सतामविगर्हितानि कर्माणि वृत्तिपुष्टिकराणिविद्यात्तान्नियारभेत कर्तु: तथा कुर्वऩ् दीर्घजीवितं जीवत्यनवमत: पुरुषो भवतीति द्वितीया धनैषणा व्याख्याता॥५॥

4. परलोकैषणा - आरोग्यम्

अथ तृतीयां परलोकैषणामापद्येत संशयश्चात्र कथम्? भविष्याम इतश्च्युता न वेति। कुत: पुन: संशय इति? 

5. परलोकैषणा निरूपणे नास्तिक्यबुद्धि: - तस्य निरासनम्।

उच्यते - सन्ति ह्येके प्रत्यक्षपरा: परोक्षत्वात्  पुनर्भवस्य नास्तिक्यमाश्रिता:, सन्ति चापरे ये त्वागमप्रत्ययादेव पुनर्भवमिच्छन्ति श्रुतिभेदाच्च -

मातरं पितरं चैके मन्यन्ते जन्मकारणम्।

स्वभावं, परनिर्माणं यदृच्छां  चापरे जना:॥ 

इत्यत: संशय: - किं नु खल्वस्ति पुनर्भवो न वेति॥६॥

तत्र बुद्धिमान् नास्तिक्यबुद्धिं जह्याद्विचिकित्सां च। कस्मात्?  प्रत्यक्षं ह्यल्पम्। अनल्पमप्रत्यक्षमस्ति यदागमानयुक्तिभिरुपलभ्यते, यैरेव तावदिन्द्रियै:, प्रत्यक्षमुपलभ्यते, तान्येव सन्ति च प्रत्यक्षाणि॥७॥

....................................

6. नास्तिक्य बुद्धे: स्वभाव: 

न परीक्षा न परीक्ष्यं न कर्ता कारणं न च।

न देवा नर्षय: सिद्धा: कर्म कर्मफलं न च॥१४॥

नास्तिकस्यास्ति नैवात्मा अदृच्छोपहतात्मन:।

पातकेभ्य परं चैतत्पातकं नस्तिकग्रह:॥१५॥

तस्मान्मतिं विमुच्यैताममार्घप्रसृतां बुध:।

सतां बुद्धिप्रदीपेन पश्येत् सर्वं यथातथम्॥१६॥

....................................

....................................

7. अत: नास्तिक्यबुद्धिं त्यक्तवता कथं परलोकैषणा विश्वसनीया इति तत्र आरोग्यम् किमर्थमिति च

एवं प्रमाणैश्चतुर्भिरुपदिष्टे पुनर्भवे धर्मद्वारेष्ववधीयेत,

तद्यथा - गुरुशुष्रूषायामध्ययने, व्रतचर्यायां दारक्रियायामपत्योत्पादने, भृत्यभरणे, अतिथिपूजायां, दाने, अनभिध्यायां तपसि, अनसूयायां देहवाङ्मानसे कर्मण्यक्लिष्टे देहेन्द्रियमनोर्थबुद्ध्यात्मपरीक्षायां मन: समाधाविति। यानि चान्यानि अप्येवंविधानि कर्माणि सतामविगर्हितानि स्वर्ग्याणि वृत्तिपुष्टिकराणि विद्यात्तान्यारभेत कर्तुम्। तथा हि कुर्वन्निह चैव यशो लभते, प्रेत्य च स्वर्गमिति तृतीया परलोकैषणा व्याख्याता भवति॥३१॥

 Regards, 

Prof. Rani Sadasiva Murty

---

From: 'sadasivamurty rani' via भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत् <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
To: "bvpar...@googlegroups.com" <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 6 April 2016 3:44 PM

[Dr.BVK Sastry (G-Mail-pop)]

Namaste

 

Thanks Professor Sadashiva Murthy garu for the apt observation < I guess the reason, for our hesitation to offer our knowledge as a whole or to assume or accept the role of becoming the editors of ancient Texts of Charaka and Susruta partly, may be that our Minds are still in western robes.   > in the context of this ‘ Ayurveda-Jyotisha-Vedanta’  exchange of thoughts.  Thanks to Professor Paturi for confirming < Does 'Hindu' tradition look down upon the seekers of artha and kaama within the bounds of dharma and force all to seek only moksha? Is seeking moksha essential to be 'healthy'? Is it not enough to be bound by dharma in all the pursuits of artha and kaama , to be healthy? In other words, is moksha-seeking prescribed as essential for health? Or, is it shown that for a person who is already a moksha-seeker, health is helpful in his pursuit, Ayurveda helps him for that purpose? To say that Ayurveda as one of the three cleansing sciences helps the pursuit of moksha is different from saying that he sole purpose of Ayurveda is moksha only. ..  .. 5. Once these cares are taken, the inter-textuality, inter-disciplinarity etc. of various Vaidika tradition, when discussed, does not harm the image of the ancient Indian S&T. ……   Let me clarify that none of my posts in the related thread were against phalajyotisha.  >

 

1.       All these points deliberated here by scholars – Professor Paturi, Sadashiva Murhty, Korada, Prasad, RNI, and all – in responding to Vidwan N R Joshi’s question have high relevance to the contemporary topic :The Battle for Sanskrit, pioneered by Rajiv Malhotra.

 

           Here is my proposal  for a ‘ Book and Conference Project’ – in  late 2016/ Early 2017   from Yoga-Samskrutham University, with a team effort from many collaborating institutions. This is to consolidate the wisdom of the discussions here to lead to next step of actions in the kuru-kshetra  ‘Battle for Sanskrit’.     The consolidation of ‘Traditional thoughts spread over these thread of discussions ’can become ‘ a firm ground to  trigger and develop building a strong response (Samskrutha  Siddhanta = Vedic Brahmi  Linguistics – Swadeshi Indology)  to address the dangers of  Sheldon Pollock- Charvaka.2 / attacks ( Paschima- Poorva Paksha =  PIE / Abrahamic Linguistics ) . This is where Rajiv Malhotras writings and pioneering  work is of immense value. And contributing scholars here can be resources for Siddhnata –response. Dr.Shatavadhnai Ganesh has already shot the first salvo!  

        

 

2.    To ensure that these thoughts do not end up as ‘ loose-canon’  and ‘ in-house debate for fine tuning and ‘word –tinkering’ thoughts in cyber posts, lacking force  and directive for any beneficial implementation’,

        I propose the following for scholars deliberation. 

 

        Taking note of all the points covered in these posts, it would be excellent to bring up a publication with a suggested title  : ‘Restoring Samskrutham from Sanskrit :   Abrahamic (PIE)linguistics to  Paninian Brahmi linguistics:  Shift in Vedic  Language Learning Tools’  and follow it up with a national /international conference.  The ‘ battle book’ needs to go the next level from ‘ Book-  review’ to an ‘Action-platform facilitating implementation and create professions supporting good life and deliver social welfare’. The publisher  and conference sponsor issue can be deliberated separately.

 

3.    The proposed Book may have a structure made up by  chapters as  invited articles, peer reviewed under the  guidance of an editorial team. The conference plan may be sponsored by ‘Sanskrit lovers’  to deliberate on the specific action points from book-chapters.  

 

       The combination of  book and chapters  can help develop  useful practical  inputs to develop plans for revival of Samskrutham studies. This will benefit   Sanskrit universities in particular ,And also  many other allied institutions and disciplines of Veda, Jytoisha, Aaagama, Tantra, Ayurveda, Music, Languages and Vedanta. This may benefit development of discipline specific Samskruth-Thought spreading works useful for management, engineering and such other disciplines.

 

4.  It is clear that there has been a  derailment of Samskruth education post 17^th century under colonial influence; and this  has lead to ‘ in –house  break downs’ in ‘ Indian Sanskrit studies’ and distorted understanding of almost all disciplines of practical relevance to good life and development of  Dharmic tradition and ‘ Purushartha  pursuit as the Key  for Welfare in India that was Mahabharath !

 

      The Purushartha –Pratyaksha  disciplines related ‘Vedic education needing Samskruth Language in Swadeshi Indology and Brahmi Linguistics frame ’ in the areas of Ayurveda –Jyotisha  ( integrated with Agama –Tantra :Both Hindu, Buddhist and Jaina texts and practices) need to regain  their   lost  ‘Spiritual Ethical base and basics’.  In this respect,  Vedanta education needs to emerge as the Social Transformation tool with a spiritual base , from its current ‘ jailed status’ as ‘ Department of Indian philosophy’!   

 

Please write to me OFF THE FORUM for any further Proposal and Action plans.

 

Regards

BVK Sastry

[Jsr Prasad]

Namaskar.

On Wed, Apr 6, 2016 at 3:44 PM, 'sadasivamurty rani' via भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत् <bvpar...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

3. Should a person who seeks Moksha  always be weak or shouldn't he be healthy?

This reminds me a story that I read in a preface (in Hindi) of an Ayurvedic book. The story goes thus:

Once a sishya asked his Guru, all the time we speak of Atma which is eternal, all pervading, beginning and endless by inherent nature. Then what is the purpose of this body. In philosophical discussions, body does not get any significance. So, this perishable body do not have any purpose in loka.

Guru do not say anything. As part of the service to the Gurukulam, the sishya goes to forest to acquire samidh etc. in evening. Then, he enters a mango groove. He becomes a goat, as soon as he enters the groove due to 'daivam.' Suddenly, there appears a tiger looking ferociously into the eyes of the goat, as if, it can plunder over and eat away the goat at any time. Poor goat is trembling in great fear. Tiger is frightening and goat is quivering. Till next morning this episode continued. Meanwhile, Guru went in search of his beloved sishya.

No later the sun raised in the east, the tiger disappeared and the sishya got back to his normal form. When Guru approached his disciple, the sishya narrates the nightmare that he has encountered and tells that with god's grace only he could survive from the ferocious wild animal. Guru asks - why were you afraid, you are not your body, right? Upon Guru's questioning so, sishya realizes the importance of body alongside Atma, and begs his pardon.

So, keeping oneself fit and conscious of one's own bodily health, is the prerequisite of any 'AdhyAtmkia-sAdhanA.'

 

4. Can we appreciate if a person attains Artha and Kama going out of the path of Dharma? 

Kautilya in Arthashastra refers to his pUrvAcAryas in context of 'indriyajaya.' He says - धर्मार्थाविरोधेन कामं सेवेत । न निस्सुखः स्यात् । समं वा त्रिवर्गमन्योन्यानुबन्धम् । एकोह्यत्यासेवितो धर्मार्थकामानामात्मानमितरौ च पीडयति । (1.7)

But he slightly differs with his predecessors and declares - अर्थ एव प्रधान इति कौटल्यः, अर्थमूलौ हि धर्मकामौ ।

However, when we look at his over all statement about his work, his difference of opinion could not withstand (in light of this statement) - विद्याविनयहेतुः इन्द्रियजयः ....... कृत्स्नं हि शास्त्रमिदम् इन्द्रियजयः । (1.6). When indriyajaya is connected with Ayurveda, it is nothing but the 'sadvrtta, AcArarasyAya and sattvAvajaya' the Ayurvedic scholars refer to.

Regards,

Prasad

[K S Kannan]

My papers

"Influence of Sankhya Philosophy on Ayurveda"

and
"Influence of Yoga Philosophy on Ayurveda"

have been published by

FRLHT, Bangalore,

but in keeping with Indian publishing standards,

not even informed me !

KSKannan

--

[K S Kannan]

You can find 4-page material on yukti in my book

Theoretical Foundations of Ayurveda (486 pp.),

Bangalore, 2011 (ISBN 978-81-908965-9-7).

Material on pratyaks"a = 53 pp.

On anumAna = 42 pp.

KSKannan

--

[Jsr Prasad]

Dear Sir,

The first paper you mentioned has been published in the 'Ayurdarshanam' (ISBN:978-81-908965-2-8), but with a slightly different title - 'The Sankhyan Basis of Ayurveda.' I could not find the second paper.

Regards

[Nagaraj Paturi]

> I guess the reason, for our hesitation to offer our knowledge as a whole or to assume or accept the role of becoming the editors of ancient Texts of Charaka and Susruta partly, may be that our Minds are still in western robes. 

------Whether I am in western robes are not the list members reading my posts know very well.

List members who have been around here might remember my aggressive stand during the debates on yogi pratyaksha or any such issue.

When somebody challenges us to show daivavyapaas'raya in Ayurveda, , it is justified to search for those portions and present them to the challenger. When somebody agrees that there is such a thing in Ayurveda and justifies that showing examples in other traditions, there is no point in showing those portions to that person only.   

I did not ask not to offer our knowledge as a whole. What  I asked is not to overemphasize the daivavyapaas'raya. I did not recommend editing the books. Since I know that S'us'ruta and Charaka did not overemphasize daivavyapaas'raya and larger portions of their texts are devoted to yuktivyapaas'raya only, I was asking to present that fact of actual greater significance to yuktivyapaas'raya to the present day readers.

> When they never hesitated why should we hesitate to offer as a whole to our next generations?

------ I can only say that they were never in the environment in which we are. I think it goes without saying that communication, not to fail, needs to be carried out, keeping the receiving audience in mind.   

> Other wise is it merely a JADU TONA to speak about our ancient Indian systems of philosophy that speak the Moksha? If others only call it JADU TONA aren't we able retort them with our strength of knowledge? 

---- My post does not have a statement or any indication that it is JADU TONA to speak about our ancient Indian systems of philosophy that speak the Moksha.

When we present our systems which are as clinically verifiably  scientific as the modern systems, in a form that looks like JADU TONA, there is a danger of the clinically verifiable aspects getting overshadowed by the form of our presentation.  

> Should a person who seeks Moksha  always be weak or shouldn't he be healthy?

------- My sentence: 'Or, is it shown that for a person who is already a moksha-seeker, health is helpful in his pursuit, Ayurveda helps him for that purpose?' meaning : 'For a person who is already a moksha-seeker, health is helpful in his pursuit, Ayurveda helps him for that purpose'

> Can we appreciate if a person attains Artha and Kama going out of the path of Dharma? 

------ My sentence : 'Does 'Hindu' tradition look down upon the seekers of artha and kaama within the bounds of dharma and force all to seek only moksha? ' Meaning:  'Hindu' tradition does not look down upon those who pursue  artha and kaama within the bounds of dharma and does not force all to seek only moksha'.  

> The essence of all disciplines of Ancient Indian Knowledge systems is MOKSHA though Dharma, Artha and Kama are incidental gains.

------- My understanding of, say, pUrvamImAmsA is that its essence is not moksha and dharma is not incidental to it but central and ultimate to it. The stand 'The essence of all disciplines of Ancient Indian Knowledge systems is MOKSHA though Dharma, Artha and Kama are incidental gains.' is perfect for a moksha-seeker, say a Vedantin.

Trivarga saadhana can be a pursuit in itself not necessarily ending in moksha, from the point of view of Indian tradition which is  diversity-centric--   is my understanding.   

> Is Daiva vyapasraya discouraged or dismissed or discarded by Charaka or Susruta or Vagbhata as an alternative or substitute of Yukti Vyapasraya? Can we find any citations any where in these texts?

------ Can we find any citation from my posts for 'Daiva vyapasraya is discouraged or dismissed or discarded by Charaka or Susruta or Vagbhata as an alternative or substitute of Yukti Vyapasraya' or at least  for ''Daiva vyapasraya is discouraged or dismissed or discarded by us as an alternative or substitute of Yukti Vyapasraya'' ?

I am confident that I can continue to hold Prof. Rani in high esteem, in spite of this intriguingly strange misunderstanding of my posts on his part.

Humbly,

Nagaraj

 

[K S Kannan]

Thank you for the info.

I was only told of this publication by somebody, and that it had my article(s). Am yet to receive the info (or a copy) officially.

KSKannan

--

[sadasivamurty rani]

Respected Nagaraj Paturi Ji,

My sincere Namaskarams to you. I always respect your postings and thoughts. Yourself, Prof. Sunil Bhattachar ji, Prof. RN Iyengar Ji, Prof. Korada Subrahmanyam Ji, Prof. Bijoy Misra Ji, Prof. Joshi ji, HNBhatt Ji, Prof. BVK Sastry ji and others (I may be missing some other names) .... are all like Dikpalakas (Quarterly Rulers) to Bharatiya Vidvat Parishat.  All of you are regular contributors to every progressive discussion in this Group. All your contributions are both qualitatively and quantitatively rich. So usually when all of you participate I mostly observe silence for the reason that not much would be left for me to say when you all speak. I learn from all of your postings, I feel happy and I enjoy too. 

I have always high regard for you. 

My reasons for participating in this thread: 

1st Reason: 

There is fundamentally a question in this thread about the elements of Vedanta or any other philosophic system in the realm of Ayurveda. Discussions are in swing. So I thought I too could contribute in this direction. Hence having gone through the Texts of Charaka, Susruta and Vagbhata I have presented certain citations from the first two texts. I reserved the third Text for my future postings. 

In the mean while, I should thank Prof. Prasad ji for lessening my efforts by posting from Vagbhata also.  

In consequence to these two postings your posting was seen where there is an expectation not to give over emphasis to Daivavyapasraya.

 Here I would like to say something: 

a) When the thread is to search about the elements of Philosophy in Ayurveda

b) When the DIRECT STATEMENTS related to the philosophic systems cited from SUSRUTA and CHARAKA  (NOT TAKEN FROM ANY SECONDARY OR TERTIARY SOURCES) are presented  -

i) Is it any kind of OVER EMPHASIZING?  

ii) Is it wrong to speak of such things? 

iii) Is it wrong if such direct quotes are presented in our postings after scholars  like you have already said something in this regard? 

Reason 2

Let us all remember that we are in times when all the ancient Indian S&T is attempted to be presented to the younger generation as mere जादू टोना. To overemphasize the daivavyapaas'raya aspects of Ayurveda may add up to this image attempted to be created by the detractors of  the ancient Indian S&T. Picking out the great achievements of yuktivyapaas'raya of Ayurveda and to present the fact that daivavyapaas'raya is resorted to only as an alternative to and not as a substitute to yuktivyapaas'raya is the need of the hour. (From April 6 posting of your posting)

This is the second reason to write my yesterday's posting. Here my statement :

 I guess the reason, for our hesitation to offer our knowledge as a whole or to assume or accept the role of becoming the editors of ancient Texts of Charaka and Susruta partly, may be that our Minds are still in western robes. 

Is made not merely keeping your  statements in view. It is the generally prevailing tendency every where. 

As a Sanskritist I am associated and have been working with many scientists in many practical scientific pursuits at national level centres. Every where this has become a fundamental question to eliminate certain elements of divine interference from the texts and to accept the clinically provable elements only. 

Here I could convince most of them to agree with me by dividing our approach in to the following ways:

i. Let us separate the elements those are clinically provable or provable in physical laboratories for our practical purposes and start our pursuits over them.

ii.  Let us exclusively consider the Elements of Divine Interference and have our pursuits over them.

iii. Let us take up special pursuits related to experiments which  require both Physical and Divine elements. 

Let us not have a choice of this or that exclusively and let us consider their knowledge as a whole start three way pursuits. 

in this context I often say them all to be Indian and think Indian and they too never denied me and our practical pursuits are in progress. 

With the same spirit I made my above statement. It is not an exclusive statement made keeping your writings and contributions in view.  This is keeping in view the generally prevalent tendency among the Indians. 

In my view THIS IS NOT OVER EMPHASIZING THE DAIVA VYAPASRAYA BUT GIVING ITS DUE IMPORTANCE.

 

All my  other supplementary questions are to bring my thoughts in tact on the topic of discussion and not as a debate. 

A Personal Appeal:

This is for a second time there has been an occasion for this kind of discussions between you an me. Once in the context of a thread on Alankara Sastra and now at this juncture. 

But always my approach is not to confront you as Prof. Nagaraj Paturi Ji. But incidentally it happened to chose certain statements from your postings and a generalized conclusions are tried to be drawn by me. 

Before the interference of the moderators I sincerely apologize if I have made you you to think that I have personally confronted you. Here after I shall take care of not participating in discussions where your lead is progressive. 

Finally   I am happy to find place for a statement  in your posting:

I am confident that I can continue to hold Prof. Rani in high esteem, in spite of this intriguingly strange misunderstanding of my posts on his part.

I feel I am blessed and humbled with your words. 

Regards, 

Prof. Rani Sadasiva Murty

---

From: Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com>
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Thursday, 7 April 2016 12:45 AM

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Dear Prof. Rani,

I probably could have had a similar interaction with one of the more senior family members of mine who are relatively greater traditionalists than I am. They too could have probably asked me not to 'play to the gallery', 'not to present the traditional literature in a way that is acceptable to the audience; in stead ask them to grow up to the level of being able to accept the material as it is'. I would have tried to tell them to realize the situation around and strategize their communication in a way that does not help the detractors of our tradition.

Hope, your words

"Here after I shall take care of not participating in discussions where your lead is progressive. '

do not mean you are angry with me.

I think your responses were partly triggered by the other threads on BVP of the same time where 'laughing at daivavyapaas'raya kind of things were mentioned, which , I can understand,  are not easily accepted by scholars like you.

Quite apart from such debates, I would like to express my admiration for the visionary pioneers of Ayurveda like s'sus'ruta and charaka that sorted out the chikitsaavidhaanas of Ayurveda, so much way back in time, into material-based, supernatural aspect-based and personality/behaviour modification based.

That beauty is what is helping us to discuss that material their own vocabulary which is so powerful that it can be taken to be applied to other medical systems too.

Please bless us with your colossal expertise to contribute to the betterment of humanity through such aspects of Ayurveda which have antedated modern medicine.

Humble regards,

Nagaraj