What is meant by Ooha?

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Jun 14, 2012, 12:18:25 PM6/14/12
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June 14, 2012
 
 Respected Scholars, Namaskar!
 I read the word "Ooha" many times. Could scholars of this list explain the exact meaning of this word please by giving examples?
In one book I read it as "modification" , in another, "substitution.
 
If we replace "Surya" in place of "Agni" in ritual mantra, will it be called "ooha"
 
According to Khanda-paks'a, padas have meanings. According to Akhanda-paks'a, sentence only has meaning. The question is where shabdas (words with no inflections) get their meanings? Is it Ishvara sanskrit or due to sphota or due to lettersounds. This is what I am interested. MImAmsakas believe meaning comes from letter-sounds.
 
As professor Korada has said in his book that the Sanskrit word, "shabda" is used in many context and hence it is untranslatable. In my opinion it has simple meaning based on physics of sound. There is difference between Naada and Shabda. Both are dhvanis. Thanks. N.R.Joshi


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V Subrahmanian

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Jun 14, 2012, 12:36:28 PM6/14/12
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Namaste.

If not too out of the topic, I wish to know the difference between 'shabda' and 'pada'.  Is there any difference in saying: एवं ब्रह्मपदनिर्वचनम्, and एवं ब्रह्मशब्दनिर्वचनम् and in 'वाक्यगतपदानां अर्थः अवगन्तव्यः’ and 'वाक्यगतशब्दानां अर्थः अवगन्तव्यः’ ?

Regards,
subrahmanian.v

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Sivasenani Nori

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Jun 14, 2012, 1:34:11 PM6/14/12
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Within the domain of grammar, the distinction is clear. Pada is a word as we understand in English. सुप्तिङ्गन्तं पदम्  - that which ends in a 'sup' or a 'ti~N' is a word according to Panini.
 
Sabda has two definitions as given by Patanjali:
 
प्रतीतपदार्थकः ध्वनिः शब्दः। This is a working definition - applicable to vaikharee as per Nagesa - which makes meaningful words Sabdas.
 
The other, more philosophical definition, applicalbe to madhyamaa according to Nagesa, which accomodates the concept of sphota is: येनोच्चारितेन सास्नालाङ्गूलककुदखुरविषाणिनां सम्प्रत्ययो जायते स शब्दः। The idea is like this. A word is meaningful only if the listener is aware of it. Let us say that I propose that our group of friends go to a tundra for a holiday. If my friends do not know what a tundra is, my statement does not make sense. If they know that tundra is a cold desert, then they can reply along the lines of: "Oh! why on Earth would you want to go to a place where nothing grows, and there is nothing to see" or "Yes, such great calmness would be very nice". So the words uttered by a speaker only trigger the sense that has already been acquired by the listener. Therefore, when one says गौः the image of an animal with a सास्ना (dew-lap in English, and గంగడోలు in Telugu, the loose skin hanging below the neck of a cow), tail, hump, hoof, horns etc. arises in the mind of the listener, hence the definition: Sabda is that on whose pronunciation (or, manifestation) the correct knowledge of the object with dewlap, tail etc. is produced.
 
In Alankara Sastra, Sabda and artha are often differentiated and used together. There, the Sabda हरिः would be the grouping of ह्, अ, र, इ, विसर्जनीयः in that order and artha of हरिः would be Vishnu, monkey, bear, lion, horse etc. Kavya is most commonly defined as something which consists of Sabdas and arthas, has gunas, does not have doshas, is adorned with alankaras etc. So they accept the working level definition of Sabda - a meaningful word.
 
In summary, then, pada is any group of letters with a sup or ti~N at end; if that is also meaningful, it is Sabda. Could we have examples please? Usually, non-sensical words are not supplied as examples of pada, but many of Panini's words would only be counted as padas outside grammar. Say, ल़ट् (or, लटि, लटः ... with whichever vibhakti) would be quite meaningless outside grammar. There, that would count as a pada, but not as a Sabda.
 
At a higher level, Sabda is Brahman, as set out in the first five verses of Vakyapadiyam.
 

अनादिनिधनं ब्रह्म शब्दतत्त्वं यदक्षरम् 

विवर्ततेऽर्थभावेन प्रक्रिया जगतो यतः   । । १.१  । ।

एकं एव यदाम्नातं भिन्नशक्तिव्यपाश्रयात् ।

अपृथक्त्वेऽपि शक्तिभ्यः पृथक्त्वेनेव वर्तते   । । १.२  । ।

अध्याहितकलां यस्य कालशक्तिं उपाश्रिताः  

जन्मादयो विकाराः षड्भावभेदस्य योनयः   । । १.३  । ।

एकस्य सर्वबीजस्य यस्य चेयं अनेकधा  

भोक्तृभोक्तव्यरूपेण भोगरूपेण च स्थितिः   । । १.४  । ।

प्राप्त्युपायोऽनुकारश्च तस्य वेदो महर्षिभिः  

एकोऽप्यनेकवर्त्मेव समाम्नातः पृथक्पृथक्  । । १.५  । ।

 
Translation of K. Raghavan Pillai from his book "The Vakyapadiya: Critical Text of Cantos I and II with English Translation, Summary fo Ideas and Notes" published by MLBD first in 1971.
1. That beginningless and endless One, the imperishable Brahman of which the essential nature is the Word, which manifests itself into objects and from which is the creation of the Universe,
2. which though described in the Vedas as one is divided on the basis of its powers, and although it is not different from its powers appears to be different;
3. the indestructible powers of which functioning through the powers of Time become the six transformations, namely, birth and the rest - the sources of all (these) manifold objects,
4. to which, Single One, the cause of all, belongs this manifold existence, under the forms fo the enjoyer, the enjoyed and the enjoyment;
5. of that (Brahman) the Veda is both the means of realisation and the reflection and it has been handed down the great Seers as if consisted of many paths, althought it (really) is One.
 
Your specific questions have to do with the intention of the writer of those lines. For instance, I am more comfortable with the nirvacanam for a Sabda than for a pada, becuase by using the word Sabda - I am sure it has some meaning, but then since padas used by great people are inevitably meaningful, even pada could be used. In the latter example, if philosophically one holds that ultimately only vaakyaartha is real, then the temptation would be to use 'pada' so that we do not attach a meaning to it, which ties in nicely with one's thinking. Where Sastra begins with अथ शब्दानुशासनम्, Bhartrihari gave the title वाक्यपदीयम् to his book. Both acharyas are equally a model to follow.
 
In some of these discussions, from a different angle, it looks like splitting hairs. But then, I guess that ability to split hairs is what paaNDityam is about. At least a student of navya-nyaya would take it as a compliment.
 
Best regards
N. Siva Senani

SHREEKANT HEGDE

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Jun 15, 2012, 12:12:48 AM6/15/12
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Hnbhat B.R.

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Jun 15, 2012, 12:48:02 AM6/15/12
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Dear Sreekanth.

It is not the meaning of ऊह that Sri N R Joshi has inquired which need be provided from the Spoken Sanskrit Dictionary. Please go through his message thoroughly and reply precisely than producing Dictionary search results.
 
ऊहः खलु अपि। न सर्वैः लिङ्गैः न च सर्वाभिः विभक्तिभिः वेदे मन्त्राः निगदिताः। ते च अवश्यं यज्ञगतेन यथायथं विपरिणमयितव्याः। तान्न अवैयाकरणः शक्नोति यथायथं विपरिणमयितुम। तस्मादध्येयं व्याकरणम्।

This is the concept of ऊह as popular in मीमांसा and as explained in महाभाष्य as Mr.Joshi has himself ascertained and wanted more details in this respect and not the word meanings of the word ऊह.

The precise answer in my opinion, to his last remark 

 
As professor Korada has said in his book that the Sanskrit word, "shabda" is used in many context and hence it is untranslatable. In my opinion it has simple meaning based on physics of sound. There is difference between Naada and Shabda. Both are dhvanis. 

ध्वनि and शब्द both mean physical sound as both are produced by friction of two physical bodies, either articulation of speech sounds or any sound like murmuring of leaves or well noted musical sounds of drums or any Instruments. In that it is alright.

According to न्याय school, they have contained both as physical entities, as अनित्य while मीमांसक-s hold it as नित्य as the revealed knowledge expressed in speech sounds. महाभाष्य doesn't have his own opinion as whether it is नित्य or अनित्य, or the relation as नित्य or अनित्य, but Panini's explanation is justified according to the suitable theory. Whether it is the Universals जाति the meaning of the words or व्यक्ति the individual is denoted by the words, आचार्य has to adjust to the convenient theory in his सूत्र-s.

मीमांसा has got its own values and न्याय has got its own values within their respective register (different from the dialect, but the the common use of the standardized language) of Sanskrit. This much was meant by Prof. Korada.

"सिद्धे शब्दार्थसंबन्धे" is the first view discussed in महाभाष्य in the very beginning of discussion on व्याकरण of पाणिनि.

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Dipak Bhattacharya

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Jun 15, 2012, 2:41:53 AM6/15/12
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पद-शब्द -- सुप्तिङन्तं पदम्। शब्दस्तु प्रातिपदिकमपि। अतः प्रतीतपदार्थको ध्वनिः शब्दः इति भाष्यकारः। प्रयोगे विशेषः – पदं स्वरूपेणैव वाक्य अन्वेति। यथा चैत्रः पठति। अविभक्तिकश्चैत्रेति शब्दस्तु अर्थवत्त्वेप्यत्रायोग्यः।
ऊह – न सर्वैर्लिङ्गैर्न च सर्वाभिर्विभक्तिभिर्वेदे मन्त्रा निगदिताः। ते चावश्यं यज्ञगतेन यथायथं विपरिणमयितव्याः।
Ūha “The mantras have not been read in the Veda in all the genders and with all the vibhaktis. They must be modified according to the sacrificial context.” Mahābhāṣya, Paspaśāhnika. This is ūha.
Best
DB


From: V Subrahmanian <v.subra...@gmail.com>
To: gira...@juno.com; BHARATIYA VIDVAT <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, 14 June 2012 10:06 PM
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} What is meant by Ooha?

V Subrahmanian

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Jun 15, 2012, 3:30:11 AM6/15/12
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Thanks Shri Siva Senani ji for the beautiful analytical reply.  I agree that we can't really be making strict compartmental divisions.  For instance the yoga sutra शब्दज्ञानानुपाती वस्तुशून्यो विकल्पः where shabda is admitted to generate jnanam. In advaita, as you know, when we consider mahAvAkya-s like 'tat tvam asi' the Acharyas take care to say: तत्त्वमादिवाक्येषु प्रथमतः तद्गतपदानां अर्थः अवगन्तव्यः, पश्चादेव वाक्यार्थः समुदेति . That is why we have the तत्-त्वंपदवाच्यार्थ/लक्ष्यार्थ usage.    

I agree with your comment: //In some of these discussions, from a different angle, it looks like splitting hairs. But then, I guess that ability to split hairs is what paaNDityam is about. At least a student of navya-nyaya would take it as a compliment.//

the justification being, otherwise why should there be two different words? Recently we saw how अङ्गद-केयूर were differentiated.  [कनकाङ्गदकेयूरकमनीयभुजान्विता of the Sri lalitAsahasranAma] 

Thank you Deepak ji for your response.

Regards,
subrahmanian.v

On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 11:04 PM, Sivasenani Nori <sivas...@gmail.com> wrote:

Ramanujan P

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Jun 15, 2012, 4:11:45 AM6/15/12
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Dear Scholars!

 

As per यास्क, there are no total or complete synonyms, since, then, there would be no need to have more words for an object.

Agni, Vahni, Vaisvanara, Jatavedas etc. all have different प्रवृत्ति-निमित्त and hence are to be appropriately used by training in शास्त्रs.

However, I feel we have not addressed the issue of शब्द as a द्रव्य (अवस्थाश्रयत्वेन उपादानं) and शब्द as a गुणः (धर्मः) distinction.

Physics is inadequate to deal with this phenomenon.

यथा - शब्दगुणकमाकाशम्, शब्दस्पर्शरूपरसगन्धा मे शुध्यन्ताम्, शब्दब्रह्मणि निष्णातः परं ब्रह्माधिगच्छति, अशब्दमस्पर्शम् ..

पदं तु लोके वेदे च साङ्केतिकम् – सुप्तिङन्तादिलक्षणम् । नित्यमपि वेदेषु । अपौरुषेयत्वात् ।

पौरुषेयेऽपि विग्रहविरहं वागदृश्यमानाऽभ्युवाच, वागाहाशरीरिणी इति श्रुतिस्मृत्योः ।

नाद, ध्वन्यादयस्तु केवलमभिव्यक्तिहेतवः ।

न सोऽस्ति प्रत्ययो लोके यः शब्दानुगमादृते इत्यस्य मूक, बधिरादीनां तिरश्चां प्राणिनां च विषये विचारः अपेक्षितः ।

स्वरत्वं, व्यञ्जनत्वं, वर्णानाम्, उदात्तादयः शब्दधर्माः वर्णानां शब्दव्यक्तित्वात् (वैखरीदशायां) ।

उच्चैः, नीचैः इत्यादयः ध्वनिश्रवणतारतम्यबोधकाः ।

कदम्बमुकुल, वीचीतरङ्गन्यायौ च शब्दविषये विचारिताः । गन्धवत् । यथा वृक्षस्य सम्पुष्पितस्य दूराद् गन्धो वाति, गन्धवाहादिप्रयोगानुसारात् ।

शब्दप्रमाणन्त्वन्यदेव । आप्तोपदेशरूपम् अनाप्तानुक्त तदर्थविज्ञानरूपं च ।

वाक्तत्वविषये पर्यवस्यति विचार एषः ।

 

रामानुजः

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of V Subrahmanian
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 1:00 PM
To: sivas...@gmail.co; BHARATIYA VIDVAT
Subject: Re: {
भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} What is meant by Ooha?

 

Thanks Shri Siva Senani ji for the beautiful analytical reply.  I agree that we can't really be making strict compartmental divisions.  For instance the yoga sutra शब्दज्ञानानुपाती वस्तुशून्यो विकल्पः where shabda is admitted to generate jnanam. In advaita, as you know, when we consider mahAvAkya-s like 'tat tvam asi' the Acharyas take care to say: तत्त्वमादिवाक्येषु प्रथमतः तद्गतपदानां अर्थः अवगन्तव्यः, पश्चादेव वाक्यार्थः समुदेति . That is why we have the तत्-त्वंपदवाच्यार्थ/लक्ष्यार्थ usage.    

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---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Hnbhat B.R. <hnbh...@gmail.com>
Date: 2012/6/15
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} What is meant by Ooha?
On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 1:41 PM, Ramanujan P <ra...@cdac.in> wrote:

Dear Scholars!

 

As per यास्क, there are no total or complete synonyms, since, then, there would be no need to have more words for an object.

Agni, Vahni, Vaisvanara, Jatavedas etc. all have different प्रवृत्ति-निमित्त and hence are to be appropriately used by training in शास्त्रs.

However, I feel we have not addressed the issue of शब्द as a द्रव्य (अवस्थाश्रयत्वेन उपादानं) and शब्द as a गुणः (धर्मः) distinction.

Physics is inadequate to deal with this phenomenon.

यथा - शब्दगुणकमाकाशम्, शब्दस्पर्शरूपरसगन्धा मे शुध्यन्ताम्, शब्दब्रह्मणि निष्णातः परं ब्रह्माधिगच्छति, अशब्दमस्पर्शम् ..

पदं तु लोके वेदे च साङ्केतिकम् – सुप्तिङन्तादिलक्षणम् । नित्यमपि वेदेषु । अपौरुषेयत्वात् ।

पौरुषेयेऽपि विग्रहविरहं वागदृश्यमानाऽभ्युवाच, वागाहाशरीरिणी इति श्रुतिस्मृत्योः ।

नाद, ध्वन्यादयस्तु केवलमभिव्यक्तिहेतवः ।

न सोऽस्ति प्रत्ययो लोके यः शब्दानुगमादृते इत्यस्य मूक, बधिरादीनां तिरश्चां प्राणिनां च विषये विचारः अपेक्षितः ।

स्वरत्वं, व्यञ्जनत्वं, वर्णानाम्, उदात्तादयः शब्दधर्माः वर्णानां शब्दव्यक्तित्वात् (वैखरीदशायां) ।

उच्चैः, नीचैः इत्यादयः ध्वनिश्रवणतारतम्यबोधकाः ।

कदम्बमुकुल, वीचीतरङ्गन्यायौ च शब्दविषये विचारिताः । गन्धवत् । यथा वृक्षस्य सम्पुष्पितस्य दूराद् गन्धो वाति, गन्धवाहादिप्रयोगानुसारात् ।

शब्दप्रमाणन्त्वन्यदेव । आप्तोपदेशरूपम् अनाप्तानुक्त तदर्थविज्ञानरूपं च ।

वाक्तत्वविषये पर्यवस्यति विचार एषः ।

 

रामानुजः


प्रायेणात्र वाक्तत्त्वविचारः प्रस्तुतः - 



महान् खलु शब्दस्य प्रयोगविषयः ..  ... इति शब्दप्रयोगविषयस्य महत्त्वात् इयत्येव परिमितः शब्दतत्त्वविचारः।

तथापि, भवदुक्तसंग्ररूपेण विश्वनाथभट्टाचार्येरेवोक्तं न्यायसिद्धान्ताभिमतं तत्त्वम् -

शब्दो ध्वनिर्वर्णश्च, मृदङ्गादिभवो ध्वनिः।
कण्ठसंयोगादिजन्या वर्णास्ते कादयो मताः॥
सर्वः शब्दो नभोवृत्तिः श्रोत्रोत्पन्नस्तु गृह्यते॥

clearly defines the physical status of sound divided as ध्वनि and वर्ण broadly. Because of the norm of नैयायिक-s, विभुविशेषगुणानां स्वोत्तरगुणनाश्यत्वम्, शब्द् as the गुण of the विभु द्रव्य, it is temporary in status for three moments and the cycle of the produced sound is explained reaching श्रोत्रदेश of the शब्द, by the two न्याय-s कदम्बमुकुलन्याय or वीचीतरङ्गन्याय.

As for मीमांसक-s, it is not at all a गुण, but itself a द्रव्य and it lies for ever in the आकाश, but only अभिव्यक्ति is needed for वर्णात्मकध्वनि. Hence they call it as नित्य. This is what I have grasped from the basic texts. Much more can be written from the original texts which is beyond the scope of the query, in my opinion and the compatible space of message box.



-- 
Dr. Hari Narayana Bhat B.R. M.A., Ph.D.,
Research Scholar,
Ecole française d'Extrême-OrientCentre de Pondichéry
16 & 19, Rue Dumas
Pondichéry - 605 001


desikan desikan

unread,
Jun 15, 2012, 10:59:54 AM6/15/12
to ra...@cdac.in, bvpar...@googlegroups.com
दासस्य विज्ञापनम्.। यस्य वेदाः शरीरमित्यादिभिरपि शब्दस्य द्रव्यत्वं सिद्धम्।द्रव्यस्यैव हि शरीरत्वं शरीरलक्षणसिद्धम्।
दासः

--- On Fri, 15/6/12, Ramanujan P <ra...@cdac.in> wrote:

subrahmanyam korada

unread,
Jun 19, 2012, 12:16:25 AM6/19/12
to bvpar...@googlegroups.com
नमो विद्वद्भ्यः

I was not aware of any change in the BVP mailing system . So the messages are being forwarded for the benefit of one and all and for comments .
There have been one or two comments that of late my postings are not being received

धन्यो’स्मि
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: subrahmanyam korada <kora...@gmail.com>
Date: 2012/6/16
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} What is meant by Ooha?
To: srith...@yahoo.com


नमो विद्वद्भ्यः

अध्याहारस्तर्क ऊहः - अमरकोशः

changing the प्रकृति / लिङ्ग / वचन according to the  प्रातिपदिकम्   is called ऊह ।

पूर्वमीमांसा  is called द्वादशलक्षणी -- 12 (or 24 , if the प्रतिपक्षाः are also taken) न्यायाः are proposed for deciding the  वाक्यार्थ  , so , also called वाक्यशास्त्रम् (पूर्वकाण्डः / पूर्वतन्त्रम् / कर्ममीमांसा / मीमांसा  etc.) --

प्रमाप्रभेदशेषत्वप्रयुक्तिक्रमसंज्ञिकाः ।
अधिकारो’तिदेशश्च सामान्येन विशेषतः ॥
ऊहो बाधश्च तन्त्रं च प्रसङ्गश्चोदिताः क्रमात् ।

अध्याय -- 1 - प्रमाणम् , 2- भेदः , 3- शेषशेषिभावः , 4-प्रयुक्तिः, 5-क्रमः , 6-अधिकारी , 7- सामान्यातिदेशः , 8- विशेषातिदेशः, 9-ऊहः , 10-बाधः , 11-तन्त्रम् ,12-प्रसङ्गः

So the question is directly related to नवमाध्यायः ।

Let us see how ऊह runs in वेद , लोक and व्याकरणम् -

(without the knowledge of पूर्वमीमांसा one cannot explain  पाणिनीयम् as the latter is built on the Nyayas . Refer to Vakyapadiyam with Helaraja's commentary) 

वेदः -  there are प्रकृतियागाः and विकृतियागाः । If all the अङ्गानि  are  provided then it is प्रकृति and if only some अङ्गानि are given then it is विकृति ।

’प्रकृतिवद्विकृतिः कर्तव्या ’ - is the norm . Veda does not provide  mantras for all yagas . So the याज्ञिक  has to change the wording suitably in terms of प्रकृति , लिङ्ग and वचन -- it is of three types -

1. प्रकृत्यूहः , 2. लिङ्गोहः , 3.वचनोहः

प्रक्रुत्यूहः - In प्रकृतियाग - अग्नये त्वा जुष्टं निर्वपामि -- in विकृतियाग - सूर्याय त्वाजुष्टं निर्वपामि - सूर्याय is प्रकृत्यूहः , i.e the प्रकृति is changed following अग्नये ।

लोकः - उच्चानि देवदत्तस्य गृहाणि । आढ्यो वैधवेयः । Here , in order to have अन्वय  the word देवदत्तस्य in the first sentence is changed as देवदत्तः in the second one - षष्ठ्यन्त   into प्रथमान्त ।

व्याकरणम् -  when a word  from the earlier sutra has to be taken to another sutra then the vibhakti has to be changed -
उपदेशे’जनुनासिक इत् , तस्य लोपः -- तस्य ’इतः’ लोपः

Herre is an example from शास्त्रदीपिका  of  पार्थसारथिमिश्र (9-1-3-4) -

'अगन्म सुवःसुवरगन्म , आग्नेरहम् उज्जितिम् अनूज्जेषम् ’ इति दर्शपूर्णमासप्रकरणपठितौ मन्त्रौ .....
ततश्च विकृतौ फलान्तरदेवतान्तरवत्यां  ’ अगन्मह्यवर्चसं सूर्यस्याहम् उज्जितिम् अनूज्जेषम् ’ इति ऊहनीयम् । तथाहि प्रकृतिवत् कृतं  भवति ।

धन्यो’स्मि 

--
Prof.Korada Subrahmanyam
Professor of Sanskrit,
CALTS,
University of Hyderabad 500046
Ph:09866110741(R),91-40-23010741,040-23133660(O)








--
Prof.Korada Subrahmanyam
Professor of Sanskrit,
CALTS,
University of Hyderabad 500046
Ph:09866110741(R),91-40-23010741,040-23133660(O)





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