{भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Learning Latin via Sanskrit

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Kushagra Aniket

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May 16, 2020, 12:07:13 PM5/16/20
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Dear Scholars,

Is there any resource (book/website) that would enable those who understand Sanskrit to learn Latin? 

I have been trying to learn Latin via English but it appears that learning via Sanskrit would be faster.

Best,
Kushagra

Kushagra Aniket
Cornell University'15

Irene Galstian

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May 16, 2020, 12:16:23 PM5/16/20
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That sounds interesting. I too would love to know if there’s a textbook like that. I learned Latin via Russian as a child, and it’s indeed much smoother than going via English.

K S Kannan

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May 16, 2020, 12:26:34 PM5/16/20
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Apte's Guide to Skt Comp.
presents many parallels between Sanskrit and Latin syntax,
though that is not the focus of the book.

On Sat, May 16, 2020 at 9:46 PM Irene Galstian <gnos...@gmail.com> wrote:
That sounds interesting. I too would love to know if there’s a textbook like that. I learned Latin via Russian as a child, and it’s indeed much smoother than going via English.

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​Sant Rajinder Singh Ji Maharaj Chair Professor, IIT-Madras.

Senior Fellow, ICSSR, New Delhi.

Academic Director, Swadeshi Indology.

Member, Academic Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthana.

Nominated Member, IIAS, Shimla.

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Former Director, Karnataka Samskrit University, Bangalore.

Former Head, Dept. of Sanskrit, The National Colleges, Bangalore.

Narayan Prasad

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May 16, 2020, 12:57:34 PM5/16/20
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<<I have been trying to learn Latin via English but it appears that learning via Sanskrit would be faster>>

In 1980's I had some introductory knowledge of Latin through English.
Major peculiarities of Latin are: (1) Like Sanskrit, you read it as you write (2) There are no टवर्ग ध्वनि in it. So, et cetera = एत् केतेरा ( and not एट् सेट्रा).

Regards
Narayan Prasad

Irene Galstian

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May 16, 2020, 1:41:57 PM5/16/20
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There's good and potentially less good news. 

The good news is that apparently one Fridericus Rosen translated Rgveda into Latin in 1828:


The rest is less good news, since you might have to choose mantras where Mr Rosen would've been least likely to offer outlandish interpretations or get confused. 

Other than this, I've tried searching WorldCat, but no textbooks turned up so far.

Irene

Harunaga Isaacson

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May 16, 2020, 2:15:08 PM5/16/20
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Perhaps Stenzler's edition of the Raghuvaṃśa with a Latin translation might be one useful thing for this.

Madhav Deshpande

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May 16, 2020, 2:48:13 PM5/16/20
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Dear Narayan Prasad Ji,

     Even English as spoken by its native American or British speakers does not have the टवर्ग ध्वनि.  In its native pronunciation, the English t is a Voiceless alveolar stop, and it is not a मूर्धन्य sound as in many Indian languages, or in the Indian pronunciation of English.  So the rendering of the English "et cetera" as एट् सेट्रा works fine for Indian English, but not as English pronounced in America or UK.  I had to learn this the hard way after coming to the US in 1968, when the Puneri English that I was speaking was not comprehensible to American English speakers, and theirs to me.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]


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Kushagra Aniket

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May 16, 2020, 2:49:19 PM5/16/20
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Thank you for all the helpful suggestions. Prof. Apte's book appears to be a great model. 

The ideal resource would be a similar book in English on Latin composition and grammar that provides parallels with Sanskrit. To that, an appendix of declensions and conjugations could be added. Currently, I find myself reviewing the Latin conjugation tables, reading their meanings in English, and then comparing them to the Sanskrit dhatu tables in my mind for understanding.


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Irene Galstian

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May 16, 2020, 4:05:10 PM5/16/20
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Even though learning Latin from English may be a bit of a long way round, Loeb Classical Library parallel texts are useful for learning on sentence level, where you absorb the habits of the language. Loeb translations are made by different scholars, so you'd be exposed to several translation styles, as well as different epochs in Latin literature. Whether you learn Latin from Sanskrit or from English, eventually you'd have to deal with Latin on its own terms if you want to be able to read texts in it. Reading Vergil or Ovid is different from reading, say, medieval Christian theologians or Spinoza.
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Madhav Deshpande

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May 16, 2020, 6:01:09 PM5/16/20
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This discussion reminded me of an interesting recent phone call that I received from a Marathi Muslim family living here in the Bay Area of California.  Their son in the 10th or 11th grade had been studying Latin and Greek in the high school for a few years and he was interested in studying Sanskrit to see the connection of Sanskrit with these languages. In our face-time conversation, the boy seemed very enthusiastic and had already done some online exploration of information about Sanskrit and its connections to other languages, and especially to Marathi which his mother speaks. I said I would be very happy to teach him Sanskrit using Zoom or some other distance learning tool.  Will see if this materializes.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

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Irene Galstian

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May 16, 2020, 6:05:04 PM5/16/20
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That would be so nice! The boy would be enriched beyond measure by this. 

On 16 May 2020, at 11:01 pm, Madhav Deshpande <mmd...@umich.edu> wrote:


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Madhav Deshpande

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May 16, 2020, 6:09:29 PM5/16/20
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Indeed, he can teach me Greek and Latin.  That would be a fair exchange.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

Aravinda Rao

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May 16, 2020, 8:11:41 PM5/16/20
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Wonderful discussion. Some Sanskrit university can take up this project. We will have greater insights into our own tradition.
Aravinda Rao K

Kushagra Aniket

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May 17, 2020, 1:57:30 AM5/17/20
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Many thanks to respected scholars on this email chain. One learned scholar has suggested reading the Bible for this purpose. 

This is a good idea because the Bible was translated into Sanskrit some time ago and also has a standard Latin translation. These translations are available on the internet. A line by line comparative reading of Latin, Sanskrit, and the King James versions promises to be helpful.

Kushagra

Irene Galstian

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May 17, 2020, 2:34:47 AM5/17/20
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In that case, Hebrew Bible narratives would be helpful to start with, e.g. Samuel, Ruth, Esther, Jonah. Samuel is pretty long though. 
I suggest staying away from the New Testament, at least in the beginning, since the peculiar wording of Christian doctrinal terminology can distract you from the task you’ve set yourself of learning Latin. 
You might also consider taking a quick look at how and when the Vulgate, KJV, and Sanskrit translations of the Bible came about. 

On 17 May 2020, at 6:57 am, Kushagra Aniket <ka...@cornell.edu> wrote:



Narayan Prasad

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May 17, 2020, 4:13:32 AM5/17/20
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<< Even English as spoken by its native American or British speakers does not have the टवर्ग ध्वनि. ...   So the rendering of the English "et cetera" as एट् सेट्रा works fine for Indian English, but not as English pronounced in America or UK.>>

Sir, I have been only to UK in 1988-89 on UN Fellowship.  I stayed at Oxford.

I did not have any problem in communicating with the British people, except with those coming from North of England (e.g. Liverpool) or Scotland. In case of Liverpool people, I had to ask even spelling of certain words, which were completely unintelligible to me. In the institute where I was sent, there was a person from Scotland. He was not speaking English, but whispering. So I had to listen to him very carefully.

By chance, in 1989 itself the 2nd edition of Oxford English Dictionary had come out in 20 vols. (wt. 62 pounds). I was thrilled to see a copy of these volumes in a shop.

My guide was from South England. He always pronounced my surname प्रसाद as प्रसाड. I told him to pronounce d like  द, as in "the". He tried, but could not succeed. Another Englishman once pronounced Urdu as उर्डू and it took quite some time to guess what he meant by उर्डू

One Englishman once visited BORI. We talked in English only. At the end he said: "उड्या पाहू". I could not immediately make out what he meant by उड्या. After some time I guessed, what he meant was: उद्या पाहू.

Of course, the American English is slightly different from the British English and sometimes I face difficulty in understanding the American accent. The pronunciation of "r" is completely different, which appears to me like the Tamil or the Malayalam .

Regards
Narayan Prasad

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K S Kannan

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May 17, 2020, 4:42:04 AM5/17/20
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Some pronounce Buddha as बुड्ड !


Narayan Prasad

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May 17, 2020, 4:49:38 AM5/17/20
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<< Some pronounce Buddha as बुड्ड ! >>

यह भी गनीमत है कि वे इसे "बुड्ढा" नहीं कहते!

Regards
Narayan Prasad


K S Kannan

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May 17, 2020, 4:55:44 AM5/17/20
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Shashi Joshi

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May 17, 2020, 5:58:39 AM5/17/20
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It is pronounced as बूडा 


Thanks,
Shashi

Kushagra Aniket

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May 17, 2020, 6:01:11 AM5/17/20
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As a novitiate into Latin, I also made an observation about the language and was wondering if the experts in this group, especially those who are biased towards Sanskrit, sympathize with it:

When I study Latin grammar, it appears as if somebody passed proto-Sanskrit through the linguistic equivalent of the statistical technique of "dimension reduction," i.e. he traded some of the flexibility and versatility of Sanskrit for the simplicity and accessibility of Latin. However, in this process, he encountered new complexities, prompting him to create additional rules and exceptions. A comparison of cases/declensions and verb conjugations in the two languages would illustrate my point. 

How would Panini react if he had to systematize Latin, instead of Sanskrit? This is not to take away from the rich vocabulary and literary traditions of Latin. However, Latin scholars have studied and evaluated Sanskrit for more than three centuries. I would be interested in seeing the products of "reversing the gaze."

Kushagra Aniket
Cornell University'15



Kushagra

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May 17, 2020, 6:01:35 AM5/17/20
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Thanks. It seems that the Book of Genesis with its simple sentences would suffice for the moment. 

Relatedly, the history of the translation of the Bible into Sanskrit as a part of the colonial project is quite interesting. 

Kushagra

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May 17, 2020, 6:01:42 AM5/17/20
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मध्यामरीकिराष्ट्रेऽपि सस्यक्षेत्रे जना: यत:।
तथागतं विजानन्ति तन्मगध: क्व मे गत:।।

That Magadha, due to which, even in the cornfields of Middle America, people know the Tathagata—where did it go? 

On May 17, 2020, at 5:03 AM, Kushagra <ka...@cornell.edu> wrote:

Once I had great difficulty in conveying Buddha to a friend from Iowa. He pronounced it as बूडा (Buda). I had to play charades to get it across. 

Kushagra

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May 17, 2020, 6:01:48 AM5/17/20
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Once I had great difficulty in conveying Buddha to a friend from Iowa. He pronounced it as बूडा (Buda). I had to play charades to get it across. 

Irene Galstian

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May 17, 2020, 6:20:03 AM5/17/20
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It's not quite clear what your interests are. If to learn Latin in the true sense of the word, that'll require a fair bit of commitment and reading a variety of texts before long-ranging observations about the language can be made from firsthand experience. Otherwise one risks being like some modern linguists who, having somehow got through a few dozen sentences in a language, proceed to make categorical statements about it and only embarrass themselves. 
If the interest is in finding a language that is of comparable richness to Sanskrit, Latin isn't the best choice, since it's a much simpler language in every sense. Perhaps Greek (especially Homeric, and definitely not Koine) would be more relevant in this context. But still, days, months, and maybe even years of your life might go into such a study. If all that's needed is to engage in colonial discourse, perhaps a simpler route could be found. 

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Nagaraj Paturi

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May 17, 2020, 6:26:42 AM5/17/20
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Talking of reversing the gaze, i.e., to see how Latin looks to a Sanskrit-knowing learner of Latin, is an interesting project.

Whether valid or invalid, a great scholar, researcher of Prakrits, epigraphy, orthography and many such fields, late Sri Tirumala Ramachandra garu passed away while he was in the middle of writing a book presenting Greek and Latin as a kind of Prakrits. 

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Irene Galstian

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May 17, 2020, 6:37:37 AM5/17/20
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That's very interesting. Will the book be published as-is, you think? 

Nagaraj Paturi

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May 17, 2020, 7:10:45 AM5/17/20
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It was half way through. His daughter is a journalist. I lost touch with the family. I will have to connect back and check the status.

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Irene Galstian

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May 17, 2020, 7:15:37 AM5/17/20
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Thank you for the additional information. 
If at some point you find out more, please announce your findings on BVP. A study like that, conducted by a great scholar, would be illuminating.

Shreevatsa R

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May 17, 2020, 8:45:02 AM5/17/20
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Sanskrit to Latin translations:
आसीद् राजा नलो नाम वीरसेनसुतो बली...
Fuit rex, Nalus nomine, Viraseni-filius validus...
and so on -- from Franz Bopp's Nalus: carmen Sanscritum e Mahabharato, the Nalopākhyāna from the Mahabharata with a Latin translation: it is the example given on the Latin Wikipedia's page “Slocus”. Apparently this work is the reason the Nalopakhyana is still (www.jstor.org/stable/24631799) encountered by Sanskrit students in the West.

A few other Sanskrit to Latin translations (the translations are at the back of the books):
• https://archive.org/details/bhartriharissent00bhar/page/n4/mode/2up (Bhartriharis Sententiae et carmen quod chauri nomine circumfertur eroticum) The 3 śatakas of Bhartṛhari and the caura-pañcāśikā. By Peter von Bohlen.
• https://books.google.com/books?id=PDEpAAAAYAAJ (Ritusanhara: id est Tempestatum cyclus; carmen sanskritum, Kâlidâso adscriptum). Also by Peter von Bohlen.
• https://books.google.com/books?id=TKUIAAAAQAAJ (Urvasia, fabula, ed., interpretationem et notas adjecit R. Lenz) May be interesting as prose dialogue is translated.
(Might be good to reupload from Google Books to archive.org if they aren't there already.)

There's also Bopp's Sanskrit to Latin dictionary https://archive.org/details/glossariumsanscr00boppuoft (Glossarium Sanscritum in quo omnes radices et vocabula usitatissima explicantur et cum vocabulis Graecis, Latinis, Germanicis, Lithuanicis, Slavicis, Celticis comparantur)

There may be more...

In the other direction there is Bacon's Novum Organum in Sanskrit (https://books.google.com/books?id=los-AAAAcAAJhttps://books.google.com/books?id=lnkOAAAAQAAJ) though this is not a translation from Latin but a commentary based on some English version.

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Irene Galstian

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May 17, 2020, 9:46:55 AM5/17/20
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What I’d love to find is a translation from Latin to Sanskrit, made by a traditional Indian scholar. I subscribed to this thread hoping that someone has seen such a thing and would mention the details. It’s unlikely that no such translations exist, but they seem hard to find. 

On 17 May 2020, at 13:45, Shreevatsa R <shree...@gmail.com> wrote:


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Kushagra

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May 17, 2020, 2:50:33 PM5/17/20
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Thank you, Shreevatsa ji. All of these appear to be excellent resources for a gentle introduction. 

Kushagra Aniket

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Jun 24, 2020, 1:07:28 PM6/24/20
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While learning Latin, I encountered rhotacization (conversion of consonants into r-sounds). Offering a verse on the phenomenon:

नानायुद्धपरिश्रान्तैः रोमकैः वीरसत्तमैः।
कोमलाः ध्वनयः सर्वे क्रोशतः कर्कशीकृताः॥

Fatigued by numerous battles, the valiant Romans converted all soft sounds into cacophonous ones by their shouting.

Regards,
Kushagra

Kushagra Aniket
Cornell University'15


Nagaraj Paturi

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Aug 2, 2020, 12:41:50 PM8/2/20
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I was mentioning late Sri Tirumala Ramachandra garu and his project during his last days on viewing languages like Greek and Latin as Prakrits. 

A big online conference is organized by Benares Hindu University on his multifaceted contributions in several areas of knowledge. 

Sharing the brochure of the online conference. 
--
Nagaraj Paturi
 
Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.


Director,  Inter-Gurukula-University Centre , Indic Academy
BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru.
Member, Advisory Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthanam, Bengaluru
Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies, 
FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education, 
Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
 
 
 
5_6138568147948536191 (1).pdf

Rishi Goswami

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Oct 31, 2020, 4:52:56 AM10/31/20
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I had started learning Spanish a year ago, left it in between. But I used to learn it through a Sanskritized way. 

Like learning Dhatus like Ir Gatau, Hablar Bhashane, Entender Avabodhane etc.  

Dhaturoop too = Va Van/ Vas Vais/ Voy Vamos//  in this way I conjugate it and learnt the Rupas. Where prathama and uttama of both are opposite, but I conjugate even Spanish Keeping He/She form as Prathama.

I also translate Sanskrit parts into Spanish. The advantage was that Spanish constriction would be slightly different from English, but Sanskrit sentences can be written in various forms so I had less confusion. 

Also many forms lIke Rucha have exact forms like Gusta. Me Gusta = मे रोचते। But an English speaker takes alot of time to understand how  I like = Me Gusta and not He likes. (As Gusta is Prathama Purusha). 

If there be made a book for Sanskrit speakers to learn Latin/Spanish, it will be very easy to grasp. 

Regards 

Dhaval Patel

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Oct 31, 2020, 5:05:37 AM10/31/20
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Just to note that there exists a Sanskrit-Latin dictionary, if someone wants to study latin through Sanskrit.

Bopp Glossarium Sanscritum




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