any restriction on public recitation of ghaNam

[Shreyas]

श्री: 

Respected Scholars,

प्रणामाः! 

One of of my friends mentioned that public ghaNam was frowned upon because it was like "regularly arresting the breath of Parabrahman".

Is there any such restriction on recitation of ghaNam or other vikruthi modes in public? 

Either way, are there any pramanas? 

Can scholars point to any documented records of public ghaNa/jata parayanam

prior to the beginning of the 20th century?

Regards,

Namo Veda Purushaya!

-Shreyas

[Sundareswaran N.K]

Scriptures and tradition maintains that AANUPOORVEE is the essential
and inevitable element of the Veda. In that case, whether it be in
private or in public, all kinds of 'vikruti'-s are not VEDA. Moreover,
if we go by tradition, it may cause harm to the utterer himself.
YATHENDRASHATRUH SVARATO'PARAADHAAT.
This is not a novel finding or stand.
Some of the traditional Vedic scholars also hold this.
N.K.Sundareswaran,

> --
> अथ चेत्त्वमिमं धर्म्यं संग्रामं न करिष्यसि।
> ततः स्वधर्मं कीर्तिं च हित्वा पापमवाप्स्यसि।।
> तस्मादुत्तिष्ठ कौन्तेय युद्धाय कृतनिश्चयः।
> निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
>

[Shreyas]

श्री:

Dear Sri Sundareswaran,

Thanks for your message.

Today some sampradayams seem to place great emphasis on घण-पारायणम् .

Public Rudra Ghana parayanam is fairly common these days and recitation of ghanam in weddings, and other domestic ceremonies is almost a given if there is a Ghanapadi or two present.

I have often heard ghaNapdigals quote the following:

Samhitapathamatrena yatphalam procyate budhaih
Padu tu dvigunam vidyat krame tu ca caturgunam
Varnakrame satagunam jatayantu sahasrakam

Further the Kaundiniya-Siksha (sloka 20 -27) seems to extol the manifold merits of reciting and hearing the more complex forms of vikrithi pathas over the  samhita-patham:

पदादिविकृतीनां ये पारायणपरायणाः।

महात्मनो द्विजश्रेष्ठाः ते ज्ञेयाः पंक्तिपावनाः॥ (२१)

घणपारायणं यस्तु सकृत कुर्यात द्विजोत्तमः ।

स वै ब्रह्मा स वै विष्णु स वै रुद्रो न संशयः ॥ (२२)

कोटिजन्मकृतं पापं ब्रुवतां नश्यन्ति क्षणात् ।

पठन्तः श्रध्दया भक्त्या सहस्राणां गवां फलम्॥ (२३)

…

पठतां शृणवतां वापि पूर्णायुः सर्वसम्पदः।

पाठकानां च पूजायामैश्वर्यमतुमं भवेत् ॥ (२६)

 

I understand that the Kaundinya-shiksha is widely accepted. If so, how is the apparent conflict between the above slokas and the the emphasis on anupurvi (i.e. preserving the natural sequence of the words) resolved?

 

Secondly, was jaTa/ghaNa parayanam outside the pathashala prevalent 100 years ago or earlier? Or is this a relatively recent phenomenon?

 

Regards,

-Shreyas

 

[Viswanath B]

I too have been told by multiple sources, that the vikriti-rupa of the veda mantras are not for public recital, and that some scholars don't like it.

Thanks
vissu

2011/11/2 Shreyas <sarang...@gmail.com>

-Shreyas

 

--

[Hnbhat B.R.]

Further the Kaundiniya-Siksha (sloka 20 -27) seems to extol the manifold merits of reciting and hearing the more complex forms of vikrithi pathas over the  samhita-patham:

पदादिविकृतीनां ये पारायणपरायणाः।

महात्मनो द्विजश्रेष्ठाः ते ज्ञेयाः पंक्तिपावनाः॥ (२१)

घणपारायणं यस्तु सकृत कुर्यात द्विजोत्तमः ।

स वै ब्रह्मा स वै विष्णु स वै रुद्रो न संशयः ॥ (२२)

कोटिजन्मकृतं पापं ब्रुवतां नश्यन्ति क्षणात् ।

पठन्तः श्रध्दया भक्त्या सहस्राणां गवां फलम्॥ (२३)

…

पठतां शृणवतां वापि पूर्णायुः सर्वसम्पदः।

पाठकानां च पूजायामैश्वर्यमतुमं भवेत् ॥ (२६)

 

I understand that the Kaundinya-shiksha is widely accepted. If so, how is the apparent conflict between the above slokas and the the emphasis on anupurvi (i.e. preserving the natural sequence of the words) resolved?

 

Secondly, was jaTa/ghaNa parayanam outside the pathashala prevalent 100 years ago or earlier? Or is this a relatively recent phenomenon?

 

Regards,

-Shreyas

 

Anyhow I don't have any opinion about whether Veda was recited outside the context which it was meant to be recited. Originally they were meant for sacrificial purposes, Rik for praising, sAma- for singing, yajus- for offering the sacrifice. The remaining, Atharva - is presumably a manual for domestic or personal use of the "mantra"s. The question now revolves about whether the yAga-s were performed in public or in Yaga-shala-s which is sanctified as the term signifies. All are welcomed at the Yaga-shala, in participating to discharge their duties. This is just idea I have about the Vedic practice in ancient times rather it can be a guess.

 

The emphasis on आनुपूर्वी is because it is the प्रकृति or natural form of Vedic Texts as संहिता-s or compilations. The others are called विकृति-s displaced in order. The melody of reciting or the piety earned gained it the popularity and as the शिक्षा you cited clearly extols its practice. At least by the time of the शिक्षा-s (if historicity is applicable in respect of Vedic Literature) and otherwise, it is अनादि all the Vedic Literature and goes back time immemorial.

This was discussed in this forum some time ago:

http://groups.google.com/group/bvparishat/browse_thread/thread/b2dbdb861374295d/f815a36001e801bc?lnk=gst&q=vikriti+paatha#f815a36001e801bc

and

http://groups.google.com/group/bvparishat/browse_thread/thread/cb1d6969d67773c3/8bbf9c8438891ee2?lnk=gst&q=%E0%A4%B5%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%95%E0%A5%83%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%BF#8bbf9c8438891ee2

and

http://groups.google.com/group/bvparishat/browse_thread/thread/702ba1570ef9e358/2e288fdebfbfdbb1?lnk=gst&q=%E0%A4%B5%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%95%E0%A5%83%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%BF#2e288fdebfbfdbb1

Hope this covers many aspects of the विकृतिपाठ.

They are just not विकृति-s as घणपाढ is for घन-पाठः, but are meant for helping the memorizing the texts as it seems apparent from the extol position in the शिक्षा-s meant for teaching the methods of teaching/recitation.

--
Dr. Hari Narayana Bhat B.R. M.A., Ph.D.,
Research Scholar,

Ecole française d'Extrême-OrientCentre de Pondichéry

16 & 19, Rue Dumas

Pondichéry - 605 001

[Sundareswaran N.K]

Dear Scholars,
Can anyone please get me the date (at least approximate date) of KAUNDINYASIKSA?
Let me add this also.
I had not seen the earlier discussions regarding VIKRTIPATHA.
Now I went through the same.
Thanks to Dr.H.N.Bhat.
But the question -What happens to the general rule that aanupoorvee
should be kept in tact in the case of VIKRTIPAATHA-s - remains
unanswered.
Am posting this just to get a pertinent answer. Not for
procrastinating unnecessary discussions.
N.K.Sundareswaran

On 11/3/11, Hnbhat B.R. <hnbh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Further the Kaundiniya-Siksha (sloka 20 -27) seems to extol the manifold
>> merits of reciting and hearing the more complex forms of vikrithi pathas

>> over the samhita-patham:****
>>
>> पदादिविकृतीनां ये पारायणपरायणाः।****
>>
>> महात्मनो द्विजश्रेष्ठाः ते ज्ञेयाः पंक्तिपावनाः॥ (२१)****
>>
>> घणपारायणं यस्तु सकृत कुर्यात द्विजोत्तमः ।****
>>
>> स वै ब्रह्मा स वै विष्णु स वै रुद्रो न संशयः ॥ (२२)****
>>
>> कोटिजन्मकृतं पापं ब्रुवतां नश्यन्ति क्षणात् ।****
>>
>> पठन्तः श्रध्दया भक्त्या सहस्राणां गवां फलम्॥ (२३)****
>>
>> …****
>>
>> पठतां शृणवतां वापि पूर्णायुः सर्वसम्पदः।****
>>
>> पाठकानां च पूजायामैश्वर्यमतुमं भवेत् ॥ (२६)****
>>
>> ** **

>>
>> I understand that the Kaundinya-shiksha is widely accepted. If so, how is
>> the apparent conflict between the above slokas and the the emphasis on

>> anupurvi (i.e. preserving the natural sequence of the words) resolved?****
>>
>> ** **

>>
>> Secondly, was jaTa/ghaNa parayanam outside the pathashala prevalent 100

>> years ago or earlier? Or is this a relatively recent phenomenon?****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Regards,****
>>
>> -Shreyas****
>>
>> **

> *Dr. Hari Narayana Bhat B.R. M.A., Ph.D.,
> **Research Scholar,
> *

> Ecole française d'Extrême-OrientCentre de Pondichéry
> 16 & 19, Rue Dumas
> Pondichéry - 605 001
>

[Sivasenani Nori]

I do not know if the obvious is being missed.

Not only ghanapaThanam, VedapaThanam was never intended to be done in public. Many vedic scholars do not like mikes to be on, or any sort of recording to be done, when they start the vedapaThana.

If Ghana is not practiced how will 'raksha' happen? If there is never a need to demonstrate, why will anybody practice? There have to be certain venues where this mastery needs to be demonstrated. One such is a 'Vedasabha'.

I am associated with 'Vedasabhas' that our family members conduct through a trust, and had occasion to interact with very old scholars (say Srimaan PaaNDuraN~gaacharya, who is 85+, maybe pushing 90) who quite often talk about their fathers / teachers and what their  grand-fathers / paramagurus said (for instance, Sriman Pandurangacharya's father refused a salary post to be the principal of Vedic school, on the matter of principle that Vedic knowledge is amulya and cannot be measured and paid for on a monthly basis - on an aside, they say Viday can be learnt by a) guru-SusrusheNa, b) pushkalena dhanena, c) vidyayaa ca). 

Through out these interactions, there seems to be complete clarity that:

a) VikritipaaTha is not used in any ritual

b) VikritipaaTha is preferred in the Vedasabha (Ghana and Krama [which is of the type namaste te rudra rudra manyavo for namaste rudra manyava ..] are the ones which are recited in our sabhas) and for pariksha. The usual term I heard is a kramaanta-svaadhyaayin. First a student learns the samhitaa paaTha, then pada-paaTha and then krama-paaTha, before being certified as Vedic scholar. This certification is done in pareekshaa sabhas, which are one type of Vedasabhas.

These Vedasabhas, in a way, are public; in some ways, they are not. Though there is no formal restriction on entry of any persons in our sabhas, the earlier versions seemed to be for a limited audience, though not so much by explicit instructions, but in an implicit lay-of-the-land sort of way.

During other events like marriage or griha-pravesh, though there is an elaborate ghana-recitation, it is always followed by ASirvachana mantras in samhita-paaTha. There never seemed to be any attempt to replace the mantras by any vikritipaaTha in any ritual, however small, in the circles that I am exposed to, even as Ghana was regularly heard. 

In AP, these events are called 'sadasyam', which in earlier years used to have Saastra-artha charcha as well (not just in Vedas or mimaamsaa but in other angas and darSanas as well). We call the same event a 'Vedasabha', when not associated with any samskaara or family function and as sadasyam when associated with these. These are access-controlled events, and to that extent 'not public'. Implicitly, it is upto the Yajamaana to ensure that no rules regarding public recitation of veda are violated.

I hope Br. Sri. Ve. Mu. Vamsi Krishna Ghanapathi gaLu would state the siddhanta, as it were.

Regards

N. Siva Senani

[Viswanath B]

Hi,

I think the question was more about 'public recitation'  as opposed to learning/ practice. However, I am not sure I quite link public recitation is linked to practicing.

Anyways, one of the examples I was given why ghana is NOT preferred in Ashirvachanam is thus - Consider the shruti - ".... aparamchana jarasa marate patiH ..... ". I was told that this when recited in vikruti pathas, the meaning would change drastically from a 'ashirvad' to a 'shapa' to the newly married bride without them realizing it. There are many scholars on this list who could probably suggest how this could be possible.

Also, I am being a bit curious on your point (b) below, that Vikruti patha is preferred on over the mula-patha. Could you please elaborate. I was involved in the recently concluded Telanganda Vedasabhas in hyderabad (Oct 19-23), and couldn't find any such preference. We have Ghana swasti in addition to the regular swasthi daily, and couple of other occassions, but no preference as such. But may be I missed something.


Thanks
Vissu

--

[Sivasenani Nori]

Only Kramaanta-svaadhyaayins are usually allowed. Krama is a vikriti paaTha. Even if some scholars who are only well versed in samhitapaaTha only join, the dakshiNA given varies: samhitapaaTha scholar gets the least, next the kramaantasvaadhyayin and finally the GhanapaaThi.

If one explores the reason, it could be that minor mistakes in svara or akshara might not be caught that quickly in samhitapaaTha; whereas this mistake gets amplified in krama and many times so in Ghana. So, when a scholar sits in a sabha and recites a vikriti paaTha, the perfectness of his 'grantha' (that is his knowledge of Veda) is so much more clear.

Regards

N. Siva Senani

[subrahmanyam korada]

namo vidvadbhyah

how and where to recite Veda  etc -- svAdhyAyabrAhman.am - kr.s.n.ayajurveda

grAme manasA svAdhyAyam adhIyeeta divA naktam veti hasmAha s'auca  ahneya  utAran.ye  bala  uta vAcota tisthannnutAsIna
uta  s'ayAno'dhIyeetaiva  svAdhyAyam tapasvee  pun.yo  bhavati .

madhyamdine  prabalamadhIyeeta

tasya  vA  etasya yaj~nasya  dvAvanadhyAyau  yadAtmAs'uciryaddes'assamr.ddhirdaivatAni  ya evam vidvAnmahArAtra  us.asyudite vrajaggstis.t.annAsInas's'ayAno' ran.ye  grAme  vA  yAvattarasaggsvAdhyAyamadhIte  sarvAn lokAn jayati .

So far as the Paurus.eya (vikr.ti) is concerned better to follow  the des'asampradaya or the Smr.ti .

See Smr.tyadhikaran.am in PUrvamImAmsA .

dhanyo'smi

Prof.Korada Subrahmanyam
Professor of Sanskrit,
CALTS,
University of Hyderabad 500046
Ph:09866110741(R),91-40-23010741,040-23133660(O)

[Sivasenani Nori]

Sir

Thank you very much for clarifying along with references.

Yours, most humbly,

N. Siva Senani

[Shreyas Sarangan]

श्री:

Dear Dr. Subrahmanyam,

 

I was under the impression that this anuvAkam from the Taittiriya Aranyakam was

specifically for the brahma-yagna "nitya-karma" and not in the context of general paarayanams

in a sadas.

 

Please correct me if I am mistaken.

 

I am still unable to find any specific pramanas in the smrithis/shiksas against

recitation of vikruthi-pathas at this time.  As you mentioned, it is best to follow the desha-sampradayam

and shistacharam.

 

dhanyosmi,

-Shreyas

[subrahmanyam korada]

namo vidvadbhyah

When there will be difficulty in delivery , the pregnant woman is given water purified with  the following Mantras ( Taittiriyaaranyaka - 4 Prapathaka - Arunam , 61) --

(apakrAmata garbhin.ya.h) as.t.ayonImas.t.aputrAm , as.t.apatnImimam mahIm , aham veda na me mr.tyu.h ....... brahmajaj~nAnam taditpadamiti , garbha.h  prAjApatya.h , atha purus.a.h  saptapurus.a.h ( yathAsthAnam  garbhin.ya.h)

this practice had been there  even forty years ago in this part of the country , Andhra Pradesh .

above Mantras , as is indicated in the brackets , are not to be heard by pregnant ladies - may cause  ' garbhanirlun.t.hanam' ( garbhasrAva / abortion) .

Such Mantras are there in JayAdi also .

Aran.yakam is prescribed ( in Arun.am itself  123 , 129 , 130 ) -  kalpo'ta Urdhvam , ... arun.A.h kAn.d.ar.s.ya.h , aran.yedhIyeeran ,.... evagg'ssvAdhyAyadharmen.a , aran.ye'dhIyeeta  tapasve pun.yo bhavati tapasvee pun.yo bhavati - to be recited in Aranyam only ( check commentary for details ) .

While describing Pancamahayajnas , it is said (Taittiriyaaranyakam - Svadhyayabrahmanam) - yatsvAdhyAyamadhIyeetaikAmapyr.cam  yaju.ssAma  vA  tadbrahmayajn~nassamtis.t.hate - so what you said is correct .

In fact , the tradition is lost . Let us see what Sastras say about ' as'is.t.a  and  apratis.iddha ' --

the general rule is - avihite  kAmacAra.h  - if no Sastram then ' as you like '.

Under 'r.l.k' , Patanjali says the following --

' anukaran.am   s'is.t.As'is.t.Apratis.iddhes.u  yathA  laukikavaidikes.u ' ( Katyyanavartikam ) --

Bhasyam - as'is.t.Apratis.iddhasya  vA naiva taddos.Aya bhavati  nAbhyudayAya ... as'is.t.Apratis.iddham yathA  - ya evamasau hikkati , ya evAsau  hasati , ya evamasau kan.d.Uyati  iti tasyAnukurvan  hikkecca , hasecca , kan.d.Uyecca , naiva taddos.Aya  syAt  nAbhyudayAya .

Hari in Brahmakanda of Vakyapadiyam remarks -

idam pun.yamidam pApamityetasmin  padadvaye I
Acan.d.Alam  manus.yAn.Am  alpam s'Astraprayojanam II

Paurus.eya / vikr.ti  - pAt.ha in public places may not be restricted . In temples , yaga etc we do that .

Bhrgu says in Manusmrti - AcAras'caiva sAdhUnAm Atmanastus.t.ireva ca .

dhanyo'smi

[VKG]

I am in total agreement with what is stated by Sri Siva Senani.

Ghana Paatha and Vikrutis including Pada, Krama, Jataa are for
preservation of the Moolam.

Display of these aspects to demonstrate the mastery and enthuse
students and future scholars; as well as challenge the participants to
maintain the association with Moolam.

Otherwise, we fall in the category of
यस्तित्याज सखिविदं सखायं न तस्य वाच्यपि भागो अस्ति।
Subham
VKG

[\/€€R]

Please I want to know and want PDF or any file in Sanskrit or Hindi or Gujarati language in Shukl Yajutveda Vajasaneyi Madhyandi shakha : pada,,krama,,jata,,mala,,shikha,,rekha,,dhvaj,,danda,,ratha,,gana Of Rudram Prakriti or Vikriti

Also want files of Katyayana Shrauta
Yajurvidhanam,,Mantra prayoga,
And Gandharva Vedam real in Sanskrit Hindi

Above all if have anybody's so please send me pls Sir Guruji Acharyaji Send me on pandya....@gmail.com & veer_p...@ymail.com

Dhanyadaroham bhavatam